If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:19 am

all we have is theories, that's very interesting.... :D 

you make it sound like facts as usual...

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:20 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

I believe there were lots of different versions of the koran and one was accepted and the rest burnt but basically it was made up with a great deal of influence of a young girl.. :D 

that is spot on

thank you, i'm sure the muslims don't like the facts though.. :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:23 am

heavenly father wrote:all we have is theories, that's very interesting.... :D 

you make it sound like facts as usual...


Lol you did not read the end part did you


DOH


Smelly spot on?

What are you basing this being spot on, a tradition?

DOH


Again try to understand historicity first eh, it may help you understand nobody here has a factual case to which order they should be in, being as early Qurans are incomplete and differ


Last edited by PhilDidge on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:23 am

heavenly father wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

that is spot on

thank you, i'm sure the muslims don't like the facts though.. :D 

they go apeshit

its very amusing though when you ask them "who wrote the qur'an"

that question sends them off the edge because they cannot answer it. they claim it was allah and that's why it was divine, but the reality it was written into book form after muhhamd died without his supervision by a man

their little minds break apart as they try to piece it together  :D 


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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:25 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

thank you, i'm sure the muslims don't like the facts though.. :D 

they go apeshit

its very amusing though when you ask them "who wrote the qur'an"

that question sends them off the edge because they cannot answer it. they claim it was allah and that's why it was divine, but the reality it was written into book form after muhhamd died without his supervision by a man

their little minds break apart as they try to piece it together  :D 



Actually I just laugh at how you take a tradition as fact, now that really is absurd, it was certainly man made like the bible, but even your claims are based on scant evidence

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:28 am

sure pal

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:31 am

smelly_bandit wrote:sure pal


Yes pal, I know history, you know bugger all about how you even understand collating evidence for history and as seen we have an argument centered around traditions from both sides, meaning it is utterly daft to claim one correct over the other based on traditions

DOH

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:50 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

thank you, i'm sure the muslims don't like the facts though.. :D 

they go apeshit

its very amusing though when you ask them "who wrote the qur'an"

that question sends them off the edge because they cannot answer it. they claim it was allah and that's why it was divine, but the reality it was written into book form after muhhamd died without his supervision by a man

their little minds break apart as they try to piece it together  :D 


they have no support what so ever for the koran that is the problem..

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Post by SEXY MAMA on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:57 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:

No i asked you first.

You dont want to answer because you know you are wrong dont you? Lol

im more than happy to answer but it makes things easier if its a two way conversation

i think from your previous experience of talking to me about Islam you're worried about what i have to offer

last time you spoke to me you ended up condemning your own faith and committing shirk

what is the first thing god/allah is believed to have done??

Now i know you are bloody deluded!

Why cant you answer a simple question?

@ Veya the very first sura revealed was sura Iqra know also as sura Al Alaq and its a very short sura again proving to Smelly that he doesnt know anything about Islam.

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Post by SEXY MAMA on Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:02 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

thank you, i'm sure the muslims don't like the facts though.. :D 

they go apeshit

its very amusing though when you ask them "who wrote the qur'an"

that question sends them off the edge because they cannot answer it. they claim it was allah and that's why it was divine, but the reality it was written into book form after muhhamd died without his supervision by a man

their little minds break apart as they try to piece it together  :D 



Oh do shut up!

I have answered this question in flap many times!

You just dont want to admit that you know nothing about Islam but only know whats taught on the anti islam sites you visit religiously.

Go and meet a muslim and learn from them!  Rolling Eyes 

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Post by SEXY MAMA on Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:03 pm

veya_victaous wrote:http://www.ask.com/question/what-did-god-create-in-7-days

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090827024534AAzvIWC

First thing the monotheist god created was light, both Muslim and Christian, being the same god and all  Wink Wink Wink 

Its something us Muslims never deny.

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:39 pm

heaven and the earth... :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:56 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

they go apeshit

its very amusing though when you ask them "who wrote the qur'an"

that question sends them off the edge because they cannot answer it. they claim it was allah and that's why it was divine, but the reality it was written into book form after muhhamd died without his supervision by a man

their little minds break apart as they try to piece it together  :D 



Oh do shut up!

I have answered this question in flap many times!

You just dont want to admit that you know nothing about Islam but only know whats taught on the anti islam sites you visit religiously.

Go and meet a muslim and learn from them!  Rolling Eyes 

Ive met you and learned plenty  :D 

Ive learned that Muslims are brainwashed and unable to think about their religion

Ive learned that even when you're presented with evidence you ignore it

Ive learned that its the easiest thing in the world to get Muslims to commit shirk

so tell us mama

who wrote the qur'an  :D :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:58 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:http://www.ask.com/question/what-did-god-create-in-7-days

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090827024534AAzvIWC

First thing the monotheist god created was light, both Muslim and Christian, being the same god and all  Wink Wink Wink 

Its something us Muslims never deny.

ok it was poorly phrased

what was one of the first creations allah made??


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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:05 pm

does the koran say allah created heaven and the earth first..?

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:18 pm

heavenly father wrote:does the koran say allah created heaven and the earth first..?

no

it waffles on about a load of other shit first


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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:56 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:Zack I doubt you are going to convince Eilzel Victor or myself, because logic shows such a view you are claiming is not logical. Fair enough it is your faith and you believe that and I respect that, but it has no logic to it what so ever to now make a view on intent, when if all is known, that intent is already programmed into you.

What makes you think I'm trying to convince anyone? Unless you're trying to convince me. Hmmm!

Hi Zack

Is not part of debating presenting a convincing argument?

Sorry but there is no logic to an all seeing deity where people then still have a choice, because if the future is set your choices has all ready been programmed in every action you do, thus premeditated. If we really had a choice in this concept, I would thus be able to have a chance of choosing different to the plan, hence why the logic behind a case of free will with an all knowing deity is silly in my book

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:01 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
heavenly father wrote:does the koran say allah created heaven and the earth first..?

no

it waffles on about a load of other shit first


ahh so it not the same even in creation.. :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:15 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Never said I am programmed because I do not believe in God, though the concept of an all knowing deity would make you programmed from the off. The part you miss is that this deity is meant to have created everything and that would include the whole expanse of time and existence, which means all is planned in advance.

Something so annoying when growing up, "why did she die?" "God has a plan" the answer to anything where religion cannot really answer awkward issues, knowing full well,  it shows the conception of a deity has flaws

Take care Zack and see you tomorrow

That's the problem - to take part in this discussion, you have to make one assumption: God exists.

Only then you can analyse what the God wants from his creation.


Of course you have to debate from that point of view, Zack, I can also judge how people would perceive a deity they follow, being as if I can have what I see better morals or the fact again to me it seems absurd how if a deity was all powerful would need to create humans and also evil and not have any other deities to fear off, to then command people if you do not follow him, you will be condemned or many other aspects. That is not the actions of a normal human but a petty one, let alone all powerful who has nothing to fear from as deities but creates other religious concepts so he can punish billions.

I find that to me impossible for an all knowing powerful deity, if this deity exists and this is what they are like, then send me down to hell, because the heaven is just another hell.

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:22 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

You are fuzzing the concepts fuzz  Cool 

I don't believe in fate Zack; I do believe our brains are all individually 'wired' a certain way so that in that 'sense' we don't really have free will, we are at the whims of chemicals of the mind- but to all intents and purposes from a materialistic/atheistic view point, we do. Since there is no judge or heaven or hell it doesn't matter what our intention is after we are dead.

However a theist is faced with a problem. You say now it is intent that matters. And bad intent, is totally (from your pov) of the will of the individual. So a persons intent can condemn them to hell? But it matters not whether we talk of intent or actions- again God knows whether you go to hell or not from the off. Presumably 'hell' is an actual place (even if not material but spiritual) and Allah knows person X, who he made on X date (in Earth time) WILL go to hell. Talk of intentions or actions- that person was destined to burn before they were born- their actions AND intentions WILL lead them there, and Allah always knew  they would.

Lol! That's not a problem. That is how Islamic spirituality works.  God has perfect knowledge. His creation doesn't.

Imagine a party you are desperate to attend. There are 2 lists, one secret and the other depends on your intent/actions.

You have no idea if you're on the secret list - so you do good actions to get an invitation on the second list.

On judgement or party day, you will find that the secret list matches the other list exactly.

The ones who didn't want to attend the party were never on the secret list in the first place. God knew/knows who really wanted/s an invite.

that's not how islamic spirituality works fuzzmuck

the qur'an specifically states that Allah chooses who believes and who doesn't

so its more like only people on the secret list are sent out secret invitations , everyone else doesn't even now there is a party and are then punished for not attending

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Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.


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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:32 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

You are fuzzing the concepts fuzz  Cool 

I don't believe in fate Zack; I do believe our brains are all individually 'wired' a certain way so that in that 'sense' we don't really have free will, we are at the whims of chemicals of the mind- but to all intents and purposes from a materialistic/atheistic view point, we do. Since there is no judge or heaven or hell it doesn't matter what our intention is after we are dead.

However a theist is faced with a problem. You say now it is intent that matters. And bad intent, is totally (from your pov) of the will of the individual. So a persons intent can condemn them to hell? But it matters not whether we talk of intent or actions- again God knows whether you go to hell or not from the off. Presumably 'hell' is an actual place (even if not material but spiritual) and Allah knows person X, who he made on X date (in Earth time) WILL go to hell. Talk of intentions or actions- that person was destined to burn before they were born- their actions AND intentions WILL lead them there, and Allah always knew  they would.

Lol! That's not a problem. That is how Islamic spirituality works.  God has perfect knowledge. His creation doesn't.

Imagine a party you are desperate to attend. There are 2 lists, one secret and the other depends on your intent/actions.

You have no idea if you're on the secret list - so you do good actions to get an invitation on the second list.

On judgement or party day, you will find that the secret list matches the other list exactly.

The ones who didn't want to attend the party were never on the secret list in the first place. God knew/knows who really wanted/s an invite.


That still makes no logical sense.

If the future is set, how can any of your future actions actually be a choice?
Because if it was by choice some would be able to make different choices to that which this deity has seen for the future. Sorry Zack but the all knowing part just does not fit, it makes the claim of choice illogical, this shows this concept up to be flawed.


I also think it is daft, if we take the religious view of heaven and hell to create something to then know again many will fail from those creations by the deity and will be condemned for eternity, you might as well not have existed at all than to have been created As you are being condemned solely on a claim to judgement when even this is already seen by this deity if we go with the concept of an omnipotent deity.

Again that means we are like fodder for a game and hence why to me something so intelligent would have such flawed logic and before you say we do not know the plan, we do, it was humans years ago who wrote these methods as a form of control over people

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:40 pm

So now didge is agreeing with me

On flap he argued against me

Get your own arguments sockpuppet

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:42 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:So now didge is agreeing with me

On flap he argued against me

Get your own arguments sockpuppet


WTF, how barmy, this view point is the same view point I have always had on all religions, how is it the same as you being as I am an atheist ? The same logic applies to an omnipotent deity and everything predetermined



DOH

Dear me, you really are scarping the barrels making up things as you go along and you copout of answering most things, hey ho

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:44 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:So now didge is agreeing with me

On flap he argued against me

Get your own arguments sockpuppet


WTF, how barmy, this view point is the same view point I have always had on all religions, how is it the same as you being as I am an atheist ?



DOH

Dear me, you really are scarping the barrels making up things as you go along and you copout of answering most things, hey ho

you have claimed that so many times while defending islam.... :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:48 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


WTF, how barmy, this view point is the same view point I have always had on all religions, how is it the same as you being as I am an atheist ?



DOH

Dear me, you really are scarping the barrels making up things as you go along and you copout of answering most things, hey ho

you have claimed that so many times while defending islam.... :D 


If correcting false claims by you is now defending, we might as well do away with any learning books, being as all I all doing is two fold, one correcting false assumptions and two showing all 3 religions have good and bad, though you ignore or excuse the bad in yours, which again shows this is more about again getting your wires crossed


Thus if you condemn one of these faiths, then you need to condemn them all, there is no middle ground, accept as I say you excuse the murder of the innocents/first born of Eygpt

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:52 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

you have claimed that so many times while defending islam.... :D 


If correcting false claims by you is now defending, we might as well do away with any learning books, being as all I all doing is two fold, one correcting false assumptions and two showing all 3 religions have good and bad, though you ignore or excuse the bad in yours, which again shows this is more about again getting your wires crossed


Thus if you condemn one of these faiths, then you need to condemn them all, there is no middle ground, accept as I say you excuse the murder of the innocents/first born of Eygpt

lol you correct false claims...ha ha ha..

your determination to defend islam has been noted... :D 

God of the bible is not the same as allah that is very obvious...

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:52 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:To me they are all man made works, if they had been written by women, no doubt religious conflicts would be a rarity.

As to authentic, to me it has little, just faith, by those who believe it is, just like the bible.

Hence why so many religious wars through time, due to faith

You don't really believe there wouldn't be an religious conflict of women were more in-charge?

Charge? How do you figure that, I am talking if only we had equality back then and they came out with mythical claims as some have done, it was more irony than anything else Zack with men being mainly involved

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:56 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


If correcting false claims by you is now defending, we might as well do away with any learning books, being as all I all doing is two fold, one correcting false assumptions and two showing all 3 religions have good and bad, though you ignore or excuse the bad in yours, which again shows this is more about again getting your wires crossed


Thus if you condemn one of these faiths, then you need to condemn them all, there is no middle ground, accept as I say you excuse the murder of the innocents/first born of Eygpt

lol you correct false claims...ha ha ha..

your determination to defend islam has been noted... :D 

God of the bible is not the same as allah that is very obvious...


No I defend against absurd claims to start hate towards followers of faiths, ethnic group, homosexuals for example, thus I correct false claims, what you do not like is your claim is to ignore your own faith which is vastly more violent, so how does that make your faith look? That shows to me you like any the 3 main  Abrahamic faiths will be the most hypocritical when condemning one of the other two.

Again your stance is to promote a fear, and fear leads to hate and hate leads to violence, that is why your view is absurd and even more so you try to exonerate crimes in the bible

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:58 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Zack

Is not part of debating presenting a convincing argument?

Sorry but there is no logic to an all seeing deity where people then still have a choice, because if the future is set your choices has all ready been programmed in every action you do, thus premeditated. If we really had a choice in this concept, I would thus be able to have a chance of choosing different to the plan, hence why the logic behind a case of free will with an all knowing deity is silly in my book

You're mistaking my intentions. I am not debating. I'm answering questions.


No worries Zack, but answering questions is part of the debate, am just happy to have you here as miss having you about, even though we agree to disagree on religion

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:59 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Zack

Is not part of debating presenting a convincing argument?

Sorry but there is no logic to an all seeing deity where people then still have a choice, because if the future is set your choices has all ready been programmed in every action you do, thus premeditated. If we really had a choice in this concept, I would thus be able to have a chance of choosing different to the plan, hence why the logic behind a case of free will with an all knowing deity is silly in my book

You're mistaking my intentions. I am not debating. I'm answering questions.


No worries Zack, but answering questions is part of the debate, am just happy to have you here as miss having you about, even though we agree to disagree on religion, as your input is always interesting

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:59 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

lol you correct false claims...ha ha ha..

your determination to defend islam has been noted... :D 

God of the bible is not the same as allah that is very obvious...


No I defend against absurd claims to start hate towards followers of faiths, ethnic group, homosexuals for example, thus I correct false claims, what you do not like is your claim is to ignore your own faith which is vastly more violent, so how does that make your faith look? That shows to me you like any the 3 main  Abrahamic faiths will be the most hypocritical when condemning one of the other two.

Again your stance is to promote a fear, and fear leads to hate and hate leads to violence, that is why your view is absurd and even more so you try to exonerate crimes in the bible

just check if allah has a son please, it shouldn't be hard to do?? :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:01 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Of course you have to debate from that point of view, Zack, I can also judge how people would perceive a deity they follow, being as if I can have what I see better morals or the fact again to me it seems absurd how if a deity was all powerful would need to create humans and also evil and not have any other deities to fear off, to then command people if you do not follow him, you will be condemned or many other aspects. That is not the actions of a normal human but a petty one, let alone all powerful who has nothing to fear from as deities but creates other religious concepts so he can punish billions.

I find that to me impossible for an all knowing powerful deity, if this deity exists and this is what they are like, then send me down to hell, because the heaven is just another hell.

According to Islam, God could have made you an automaton (like an angel) - who just follows instructions without questioning.

But God would rather one follow him out of their own free choice, by asking intelligent questions - just as you are.

Surely you can see that one who has these choices is a higher form of creation.


You are not seeing my point, we have choices and see we have choices as humans but if an omnipotent deity existed, then everything anyone does is thus programmed in advance because you cannot alter the future, thus your choices have already been predetermined.
That is not choice, because how can a person follow any path if the future with a choice if it is already set?


Last edited by PhilDidge on Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:04 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


No I defend against absurd claims to start hate towards followers of faiths, ethnic group, homosexuals for example, thus I correct false claims, what you do not like is your claim is to ignore your own faith which is vastly more violent, so how does that make your faith look? That shows to me you like any the 3 main  Abrahamic faiths will be the most hypocritical when condemning one of the other two.

Again your stance is to promote a fear, and fear leads to hate and hate leads to violence, that is why your view is absurd and even more so you try to exonerate crimes in the bible

just check if allah has a son please, it shouldn't be hard to do?? :D 


Allah or your God do not exist to me and the Jews don't speak of a son of God either, only a messiah

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:06 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

just check if allah has a son please, it shouldn't be hard to do?? :D 


Allah or your God do not exist to me and the Jews don't speak of a son of God either, only a messiah

will if they don't exist to you they cannot be the same deity then, excellent thank goodness that is over.... :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:10 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


You are not seeing my point, we have choices and see we have choices as humans but if an omnipotent deity existed, then everything anyone does is thus programmed in advance because you cannot alter the future, thus your choices have already been predetermined.
That is not choice, because how can a person follow any path if the future with a choice if it is already set?

You're not the only own to be confused by the concept of 'qadr'. Muslims asked the same questions directly to the prophet.

There is predestination is Islam as God is all knowing - I agree with you about that.

But your destination is still determined by your choices. And no one but you can be held responsible for your choices.

Got to go again. See ya.


Sorry there is no choice, for example lets take the position your deity exists, your deity can see all and thus can see the future and this future is never mentioned as being not set in stone and with choices, but cler knowledge of the future.
Thus if it is set in stone, the people that got on the planes that were hijacked for 9/11 would have been predetermined the choice they bought tickets or needed to fly .
Now unless you are saying you can change the future what God already knows, then what you end up doing is already set and cannot change from that path, even before you are born. If someone survives is because with your faith this was forseen.

Thus to have a deity belief of a seeing the future set in stone means nobody would have any choices as they will end up making the choices that sets them on the many paths seen in the future

Thus no choice

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