If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

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If god is all powerful why does he allow sin? - Page 10 Empty If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:55 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

you have never demonstrated any knowledge what so ever of the bible or theology, not once...

you have never " caught me out"..lol


I see didge is indulging his delusions

Did I ever tell you about the time didge argued that monotheistic Islam taught the idea of a polytheistic pantheon of gods

He made a very public apology to me

He was as sure of himself then as he is now and just as wrong



Did I? Is your ability to losing a debate now inventing things to deflect from the fact I was able to disprove the foundations of your faith smelly?

So not only are you unable to refute my counters but invent things of which you used to once argue with mentor he was once the name of a pre islamic deity, of which you also argued with this over the crescent moon symbol of Islam?
Please its bad enough you got caught with your pants down here but don;t now claim I stated things you claimed yourself

Suggest you grow a pair if you want to debate with the adults smelly

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:57 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:


I have no need to squirm out of anything

You are the one who has said you can disprove my faith

When I tell you to crack on and disprove it you failed to do so

My faith remains intact


Does it?

Your faith is based on Christianity taught to you, I have just shown the bible is not the word of god, thus your faith is based on a lie!

I have thus been able to disprove your faith


You haven't shown me anything

You've waffle a lot and presented your beliefs on the bible and Christianity

No human being can ever disprove the beliefs and faith of another human being

I still believe in god and that Jesus is the son of god who was crucified for humankind's sins

You've tried and failed

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:01 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Does it?

Your faith is based on Christianity taught to you, I have just shown the bible is not the word of god, thus your faith is based on a lie!

I have thus been able to disprove your faith


You haven't shown me anything
No counter just waffle

You've waffle a lot and presented your beliefs on the bible and Christianity
No counter just waffle

No human being can ever disprove the beliefs and faith of another human being
I just did, you either believe the Bible is the word of God if you are a Christian, if not you are not a christian as you claim, thus either way I have refuted your faith, no middle ground, as Jesus saw the past law and commands as the word of God  

I still believe in god and that Jesus is the son of god who was crucified for humankind's sins
Well as seen the bible lies, so I have proved the bible has contradictions and as such your faith is based upon contradictions.

You've tried and failed


I have bounced your plagiarized concept out of the park and proved the foundations of your faith to be a lie

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:04 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

I see didge is indulging his delusions

Did I ever tell you about the time didge argued that monotheistic Islam taught the idea of a polytheistic pantheon of gods

He made a very public apology to me

He was as sure of himself then as he is now and just as wrong



Did I? Is your ability to losing a debate now inventing things to deflect from the fact I was able to disprove the foundations of your faith smelly?

So not only are you unable to refute my counters but invent things of which you used to once argue with mentor he was once the name of a pre islamic deity, of which you also argued with this over the crescent moon symbol of Islam?
Please its bad enough you got caught with your pants down here but don;t now claim I stated things you claimed yourself

Suggest you grow a pair if you want to debate with the adults smelly

still sting after all this time does it??

Must do since you're denying it

 lol! 

Deny away didge but behind your PC screen you are reading this and thinking "shit"

You and I know what happened

That's good enough for me


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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:07 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Did I? Is your ability to losing a debate now inventing things to deflect from the fact I was able to disprove the foundations of your faith smelly?

So not only are you unable to refute my counters but invent things of which you used to once argue with mentor he was once the name of a pre islamic deity, of which you also argued with this over the crescent moon symbol of Islam?
Please its bad enough you got caught with your pants down here but don;t now claim I stated things you claimed yourself

Suggest you grow a pair if you want to debate with the adults smelly

still sting after all this time does it??

Must do since you're denying it

 lol! 

Deny away didge but behind your PC screen you are reading  this and thinking "shit"

You and I know what happened

That's good enough for me



Do I? Is this like the claim from sassy on you?

Yes I know how you and mentor both argued this, why would I, lets look again at this logically, you used to claim also to me Allah also actually exists to you, which would contradict your own faith if this deity also existed. That is why you are an amateur on such debates, I remember all the things you have fucked up over

Even here now you are being torn a new arsehole

 :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:09 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:


You haven't shown me anything
No counter just waffle

You've waffle a lot and presented your beliefs on the bible and Christianity
No counter just waffle

No human being can ever disprove the beliefs and faith of another human being
I just did, you either believe the Bible is the word of God if you are a Christian, if not you are not a christian as you claim, thus either way I have refuted your faith, no middle ground, as Jesus saw the past law and commands as the word of God  

I still believe in god and that Jesus is the son of god who was crucified for humankind's sins
Well as seen the bible lies, so I have proved the bible has contradictions and as such your faith is based upon contradictions.

You've tried and failed


I have bounced your plagiarized concept out of the park and proved the foundations of your faith to be a lie

Lol

Those are your views on the bible didge all you've done is validate your views to yourself

Millions including me still Believe in god and Jesus as his son

So you haven't been overly successful in disproving Christianity have you??

"I have refuted your faith, no middle ground, as Jesus saw the past law and commands as the word of God"

Let's see if you can spot the problem with this


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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:13 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


I have bounced your plagiarized concept out of the park and proved the foundations of your faith to be a lie

Lol

Those are your views on the bible didge all you've done is validate your views to yourself
No just proved the bible contradicts and is thus not the word of god smelly

Millions including me still Believe in god and Jesus as his son
Yes faith based on no fact but stupdiity

So you haven't been overly successful in disproving Christianity have you??
Just did, ha ha, you though deny I have, he fact is I have placed doubt of which you cannot refute, which is hilarious to me, and bad news for you

"I have refuted your faith, no middle ground, as Jesus saw the past law and commands as the word of God"

Let's see if you can spot the problem with this


Yes please do.

Still waiting for you to prove to me the bible is the word of god, as seen it is not, if not the word of god, it is the word of men, which thus refutes anything Jesus claimed on his faith

Opps

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:19 pm

For smelly to ponder:



In Genesis 2:24, Moses, the author of the passage, wrote, for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to
his wife. But when Jesus quoted this passage in Matthew 19:4-5, He didn’t say that “Genesis said” or “Moses said.” Jesus
said, … He [God] … said…. That means that Jesus taught that what Moses wrote—God said, and what God said—Moses
wrote.

In Matthew 22:43, Jesus said that David spoke by the Holy Spirit. In 2 Samuel 23:2 David said that The Spirit of the Lord
spoke by me, …. Therefore, what David said in Scripture—God said.

In Matthew 4:4, 7, and 10, Jesus rebuked Satan and said, Go, Satan! For it is written, “You shall worship the Lord your God,
and serve Him only.” But when this passage appeared in Deuteronomy 6:13, the author said these are God’s words
(Deuteronomy 6:1). Therefore, Jesus believed that it is written is the same as what God said. He believed that Scripture
equals God’s Word.

Therefore, Jesus taught that what God says—the Bible says, and what the Bible says—God says. Jesus taught—The Bible is
the Word of God.



In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said that not the smallest letter of a word or stroke of a pen will pass away from the Bible. In other
words, the Word of God will stand forever. It cannot be broken.

John 10:34-35 says, Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, You are gods’? If he called them
gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken) … Jesus said four things about the Bible in this
passage: (1) It is Law (torah). (2) It is the Word of God. (3) It is Scripture (writings). (4) It cannot be broken. Put them all together and you have what Jesus thought about the Bible. It is the written, unbreakable Law of God—infallible.
Throughout Scripture, one of the most often repeated phrases with theological significance is it is written. It appears 92 times
in the Bible. (1) Jesus established the final authority of Scripture by saying, it is written. (2) Jesus rebuked the devil by saying, it is written (Matthew 4). (3) Jesus refuted heresy (Mark 12:18). (4) Jesus established His Messianic credentials (Matthew 11:5). (5) Jesus condemned hypocrisy (Matthew 12). (6) Jesus predicted His resurrection (Matthew 12:39). Jesus based everything in His life on the authority of Scripture.



Some say you can trust the Bible on moral or spiritual issues but not on other issues, such as science or history. They say that
the Bible tells you how to go to heaven but not how the heavens go. In John 3:12, Jesus said the opposite is true. If you can’t
trust Him when He speaks of earthly things (science, creation), how will you believe Him when He speaks of heavenly things
(eternal life)?

Liberal critics dispute the following (but Jesus affirmed them): 1. The literal creation of Adam and Eve—In Matthew 19:4, Jesus said that God literally … created them from the
beginning … male and female. He affirmed the creation of man in the image of God. Since 1859 to the present, the vast
majority of all scientists have rejected the idea of creation and have accepted the theory of evolution. Jesus said that they are
all wrong. He said that God literally created a man and a woman, who literally produced literal offspring according to their
kind. And Jesus ought to know—as Creator, He was there!

(Colossians 1:16). 2. The worldwide flood—In Matthew 24:38-39, Jesus said there was a flood, and it took all mankind away.


3. The story of Jonah—In Matthew 12:40, Jesus said that Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the
whale



I have highlighted just one part for you showing Jesus claims also that god wiped away all humanity and yet I have proved this to be wrong, thus Jesus is wrong, oh dear

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:44 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

still sting after all this time does it??

Must do since you're denying it

 lol! 

Deny away didge but behind your PC screen you are reading  this and thinking "shit"

You and I know what happened

That's good enough for me



Do I? Is this like the claim from sassy on you?

Yes I know how you and mentor both argued this, why would I, lets look again at this logically, you used to claim also to me Allah also actually exists to you, which would contradict your own faith if this deity also existed. That is why you are an amateur on such debates, I remember all the things you have fucked up over

Even here now you are being torn a new arsehole

 :D   

No

Sassy has fabricated her accusations and then stupidly claimed to have proof

The difference is that I don't care who knows so long as you do

You know what you said

I know what you said

 :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:49 pm

PhilDidge wrote:For smelly to ponder:



In Genesis 2:24, Moses, the author of the passage, wrote, for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to
his wife. But when Jesus quoted this passage in Matthew 19:4-5, He didn’t say that “Genesis said” or “Moses said.” Jesus
said, … He [God] … said…. That means that Jesus taught that what Moses wrote—God said, and what God said—Moses
wrote.

In Matthew 22:43, Jesus said that David spoke by the Holy Spirit. In 2 Samuel 23:2 David said that The Spirit of the Lord
spoke by me, …. Therefore, what David said in Scripture—God said.

In Matthew 4:4, 7, and 10, Jesus rebuked Satan and said, Go, Satan! For it is written, “You shall worship the Lord your God,
and serve Him only.” But when this passage appeared in Deuteronomy 6:13, the author said these are God’s words
(Deuteronomy 6:1). Therefore, Jesus believed that it is written is the same as what God said. He believed that Scripture
equals God’s Word.

Therefore, Jesus taught that what God says—the Bible says, and what the Bible says—God says. Jesus taught—The Bible is
the Word of God.



In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said that not the smallest letter of a word or stroke of a pen will pass away from the Bible. In other
words, the Word of God will stand forever. It cannot be broken.

John 10:34-35 says, Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, You are gods’? If he called them
gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken) … Jesus said four things about the Bible in this
passage: (1) It is Law (torah). (2) It is the Word of God. (3) It is Scripture (writings). (4) It cannot be broken. Put them all together and you have what Jesus thought about the Bible. It is the written, unbreakable Law of God—infallible.
Throughout Scripture, one of the most often repeated phrases with theological significance is it is written. It appears 92 times
in the Bible. (1) Jesus established the final authority of Scripture by saying, it is written. (2) Jesus rebuked the devil by saying, it is written (Matthew 4). (3) Jesus refuted heresy (Mark 12:18). (4) Jesus established His Messianic credentials (Matthew 11:5). (5) Jesus condemned hypocrisy (Matthew 12). (6) Jesus predicted His resurrection (Matthew 12:39). Jesus based everything in His life on the authority of Scripture.



Some say you can trust the Bible on moral or spiritual issues but not on other issues, such as science or history. They say that
the Bible tells you how to go to heaven but not how the heavens go. In John 3:12, Jesus said the opposite is true. If you can’t
trust Him when He speaks of earthly things (science, creation), how will you believe Him when He speaks of heavenly things
(eternal life)?

Liberal critics dispute the following (but Jesus affirmed them): 1. The literal creation of Adam and Eve—In Matthew 19:4, Jesus said that God literally … created them from the
beginning … male and female. He affirmed the creation of man in the image of God. Since 1859 to the present, the vast
majority of all scientists have rejected the idea of creation and have accepted the theory of evolution. Jesus said that they are
all wrong. He said that God literally created a man and a woman, who literally produced literal offspring according to their
kind. And Jesus ought to know—as Creator, He was there!

(Colossians 1:16). 2. The worldwide flood—In Matthew 24:38-39, Jesus said there was a flood, and it took all mankind away.


3. The story of Jonah—In Matthew 12:40, Jesus said that Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the
whale



I have highlighted just one part for you showing Jesus claims also that god wiped away all humanity and yet I have proved this to be wrong, thus Jesus is wrong, oh dear


I see your penny hasn't dropped yet

 :D 


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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:56 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Do I? Is this like the claim from sassy on you?

Yes I know how you and mentor both argued this, why would I, lets look again at this logically, you used to claim also to me Allah also actually exists to you, which would contradict your own faith if this deity also existed. That is why you are an amateur on such debates, I remember all the things you have fucked up over

Even here now you are being torn a new arsehole

 :D   

No

Sassy has fabricated her accusations and then stupidly claimed to have proof
So she has but you have not, one moment
 ://?roflmao?/:  Dear me dig that hole faster smelly  lol! 


The difference is that I don't care who knows so long as you do
I know you are talking bull as usual knowing it was you

You know what you said
Yes we know what you said

I know what you said

 :D 

Yes I know what you said and the penny has not dropped for you either, am so anticipating your next answers is sad I have to wait until you do to also cream that also.

Good luck and catch you tomorrow

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:59 pm

is didge declaring himself the winner again..lol

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:10 pm

heavenly father wrote:is didge declaring himself the winner again..lol

Me?

Goodness no, the atheists as usual have won the debate, each and everyone of us has proven your claims wrong chap, hence your latest rebuttal of no substance to the debate

Thanks as always enjoyed today, hats off to Eilzel, Ben, Veya, Quill and Stardesk, posters of sound reason and logic



Until tomorrow

 :D 

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:17 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:is didge declaring himself the winner again..lol

Me?

Goodness no, the atheists as usual have won the debate, each and everyone of us has proven your claims wrong chap, hence your latest rebuttal of no substance to the debate

Thanks as always enjoyed today, hats off to Eilzel, Ben, Veya, Quill and Stardesk, posters of sound reason and logic



Until tomorrow

 :D   

ha ha you have proved nothing as usual....lol but i admire your consistency... :D 

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:59 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

unfortunately one of the last commands Jesus gave was to go and preach the good news to all the earth, so that's not going to happen..

No the bible tells you quite clearly your good deeds are as filthy rags, so what you think are good really is not.

Even Jesus said that his message was incomplete (John 16:12), so it's quite arrogant of you to think the Bible is the complete truth.

it is talking about Jesus going back to the father and then the Holy spirit bringing all truth, so how does that imply the bible is incomplete..

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:10 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

it is talking about Jesus going back to the father and then the Holy spirit bringing all truth, so how does that imply the bible is incomplete..

Not quite. He says he has much more to tell you (in otherwords he knows the information) but his followers will not be able to bare the information at that time.

Hence the Bible does not include this information as his followers were not ready for it. And therefore the Bible does not include all the teaching of Jesus and so, incomplete.

but he concludes that by saying when he is gone the Holy spirit will show them all things, so again it is not saying the bible is incomplete..

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:17 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

but he concludes that by saying when he is gone the Holy spirit will show them all things, so again it is not saying the bible is incomplete..

John 16:12-15
New International Version (NIV)
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

It quite clearly he (this spirit) will not speak on his own. So who will speak for this spirit?  And where is his gospel in the Bible? What is yet to come?


exactly, you answered your own question, Jesus must go back to the father, the spirit of truth is promised when Jesus leaves and the spirit of truth will make all things known to the believers, there is no mystery and no incomplete bible..x

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:25 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

exactly, you answered your own question, Jesus must go back to the father, the spirit of truth is promised when Jesus leaves and the spirit of truth will make all things known to the believers, there is no mystery and no incomplete bible..x

Sorry, question not answered at all.

Does the Bible include this unbearable information? Yes/No

If yes, what is this information.

It quite clearly says 'he will not speak on his own', so who spoke for him?

it is probably the information on what and why Jesus went through..

Jesus says that he must leave so the spirit of truth can come, the Holy spirit, so when Jesus leaves the Holy spirit comes and gives the believer all truths, none of its own but all that of God's..

there is no missing mystery the Holy spirit brings all truth..

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:22 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Who needs maths or science?

When a deity is defined logic can disprove it and in your case the bible is full of contradictions, thus your faith is based on something that contradicts.

Smelly though has yet to define his beliefs

All you're doing there is disproving a religion. Not the existence of God.

Hi Zack

Glad to have you on board.

Disproving the bible when people claim it to be the word of their god, disproves such a deity exists, as how could this deity be so inept at many things? Logically that means this deity has flaws and faults and would thus not be infallible. Thus it would be the work of men who crated the bible

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:24 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

All you're doing there is disproving a religion. Not the existence of God.

Hi Zack

Glad to have you on board.

Disproving the bible when people claim it to be the word of their god, disproves such a deity exists, as how could this deity be so inept at many things? Logically that means this deity has flaws and faults and would thus not be infallible. Thus it would be the work of men who crated the bible

hey look it's the didge twins or the didgerytwo...lol

you have proved nothing except your lack of knowledge..

i don't the remember the bible being out in large wooden boxes ..oh you mean created not crated...lol

 lol! 

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:25 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
sphinx wrote:Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

The idea is that you're tested in this world by what choices you make. It's religion 101 and I'm still surprised adults are asking the question.

Here's a mind twist for you. According to Islam, everything you do is by the will of God and God knows everything that you will do. But you will still be judged by your actions.

Bet you're really confused now.  :D 


Which means everything is premeditated by this deity, that means they do not have a choice, as according to the beliefs this deity creates everything including thus if he knows in advance how that person will choose.
That makes that deity thus unfair to some of ts creations, as they are condemn the moment they are conceived

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:27 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Zack

Glad to have you on board.

Disproving the bible when people claim it to be the word of their god, disproves such a deity exists, as how could this deity be so inept at many things? Logically that means this deity has flaws and faults and would thus not be infallible. Thus it would be the work of men who crated the bible

hey look it's the didge twins or the didgerytwo...lol

you have proved nothing except your lack of knowledge..

i don't the remember the bible being out in large wooden boxes ..oh you mean created not crated...lol

 lol! 


Please you were a side attraction to have fun with debating, now we have Zack here who does know what he is talking about, so thanks enjoyed showing the bible to be flawed and thus not the work of a deity, it was easy, you just cannot accept this, which is your own issue not mine, but it means your life is dictated by a lie

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:33 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

it is probably the information on what and why Jesus went through..

Jesus says that he must leave so the spirit of truth can come, the Holy spirit, so when Jesus leaves the Holy spirit comes and gives the believer all truths, none of its own but all that of God's..

there is no missing mystery the Holy spirit brings all truth..

Probably means you don't actually know and therefore don't actually know if the Bible is complete or not.

Of course I know and of course i know the bible is complete... :D 

is this didgeryone or didgerytwo by the way... :D 

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Post by Eilzel on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:36 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
sphinx wrote:Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

The idea is that you're tested in this world by what choices you make. It's religion 101 and I'm still surprised adults are asking the question.

Here's a mind twist for you. According to Islam, everything you do is by the will of God and God knows everything that you will do. But you will still be judged by your actions.

Bet you're really confused now.  :D 

That isn't confusing it is just a good example of how much weight is given to whichever 'God' and his abilities, and the contradictions it raises when we then look at the question of judgement in the afterlife.

Nice to 'see' you here by the way Zack  Smile 
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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:48 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Which means everything is premeditated by this deity, that means they do not have a choice, as according to the beliefs this deity creates everything including thus if he knows in advance how that person will choose.
That makes that deity thus unfair to some of ts creations, as they are condemn the moment they are conceived  

Nope. That's where people get confused.

I believe in a God that is outside the bounds of space and time. Therefore not bound by either. Using a techno analogy, he can view your life in exquisite detail and forward and rewind to any time in your life. But you are still the actor and director of your own life - at least as far as you individually are concerned.

And within certain limitations. Which is why in Islam we say, you don't have free will but 'free choice'. Free will suggests you are in control of the outcome of your actions.

In Islam, you are not judged by the outcome of your actions but by your intentions.

Sorry zack that just does not have any logic towards such a notion. If this deity can create everything, then and knows how people will live their lives, the decision has been taken from them, as they are created to act a way in life. How thus if we are to use the belief your faith has, then there is no choice for anyone, it is predetermined by the fact he can already see what you will do, it does not say he can see different outcomes to the choice later made, but that he sees all that you will do, that means [redetermned, hence the illogical nature of the deities in the main faiths.

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:53 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Zack

Glad to have you on board.

Disproving the bible when people claim it to be the word of their god, disproves such a deity exists, as how could this deity be so inept at many things? Logically that means this deity has flaws and faults and would thus not be infallible. Thus it would be the work of men who crated the bible

Nope. It just means that the men who wrote the Bible (assuming you're correct) misreprensted a diety.


Which is what I have disproved, the made up deity that they are following, which was the point here. They asked if I could disprove religions or deities, of which I said if they are clearly defined then you can test this with logic based off the beliefs and written works. The deity has yet to be proven, I am merely disprove the beliefs based on work, by that view, that deity of that work, would not exist. Now you may well enter the fray and say as you are doing now, that your works make this moot, as I have to disprove all 3 works, being as it is claimed to be the same deity and clearly if all 3 are misrepresented, then one concludes the whole faith system and deity surrounding this deity is made up, thus does not exist

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:55 pm

actually you said you could disprove faith but don't let facts get in your way, you never have before.. :D 

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:59 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Sorry zack that just does not have any logic towards such a notion. If this deity can create everything, then and knows how people will live their lives, the decision has been taken from them, as they are created to act a way in life. How thus if we are to use the belief your faith has, then there is no choice for anyone, it is predetermined by the fact he can already see what you will do, it does not say he can see different outcomes to the choice later made, but that he sees all that you will do, that means [redetermned, hence the illogical nature of the deities in the main faiths.

If I can see your future and know you are going to make a decision but do not tell you about it - you will continue to make that decision without any outside influence.

I still know what you were going to do but you were fully in control. You can't blame me for not telling you. That would mean taking your power to choose away.


That is irrelevant, the creation of your decisions has been determined in advance, being as it is claimed this deity sees and knows everything, thus it would be part of the creation upon everything, so you cease to have control over your actions, as God could also also steer people to these decisions by other events or actions, thus everything is predetermined and thus this would mean no free will

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Post by Eilzel on Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:02 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Which is what I have disproved, the made up deity that they are following, which was the point here. They asked if I could disprove religions or deities, of which I said if they are clearly defined then you can test this with logic based off the beliefs and written works. The deity has yet to be proven, I am merely disprove the beliefs based on work, by that view, that deity of that work, would not exist. Now you may well enter the fray and say as you are doing now, that your works make this moot, as I have to disprove all 3 works, being as it is claimed to be the same deity and clearly if all 3 are misrepresented, then one concludes the whole faith system and deity surrounding this deity is made up, thus does not exist  

Like I said, disproving a religion (even Islam, in your mind, at least) does not disprove the notion of the creator of a universe.

FYI: nor does evolution. That's just a process, like photosynthesis. But that's another thread.

You are correct nothing 'disproves' the notion of a creator. However; we are possibly approaching a point where we may well be able to explain the origins of the universe and all things WITHOUT needing a creator as part of the process- in which case the 'add on' of a creator will be more a personal preference than ever before. You cannot of course 'disprove' the existence of that which cannot be proven to begin with- bit like the FSM  Wink 

Evolution is fascinating of course and contrary to our fundie Bible bashers opinions is a fact, the word theory merely implying that is in the way something is explained. Of course evolution isn't exclusive to the non-religious, by most accounts Darwin himself was a Christian.

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:03 pm

oh wow i wish i could have two windows open on the same webpage... :D 

you both said you could disprove faith by the way... :D 

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:04 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Which is what I have disproved, the made up deity that they are following, which was the point here. They asked if I could disprove religions or deities, of which I said if they are clearly defined then you can test this with logic based off the beliefs and written works. The deity has yet to be proven, I am merely disprove the beliefs based on work, by that view, that deity of that work, would not exist. Now you may well enter the fray and say as you are doing now, that your works make this moot, as I have to disprove all 3 works, being as it is claimed to be the same deity and clearly if all 3 are misrepresented, then one concludes the whole faith system and deity surrounding this deity is made up, thus does not exist  

Like I said, disproving a religion (even Islam, in your mind, at least) does not disprove the notion of the creator of a universe.

FYI: nor does evolution. That's just a process, like photosynthesis. But that's another thread.


Not at all Zack, the belief is centered around works, if 3 of them are found to contradict and be seen as the work of men, then being as there is no proof of a deity, because I have shown conclusively the deity of that work, is the imagination of men, written by men. That means that deity of that work has been show to not exist. To argue against just a creator god and nothing else would thus be difficult. as there is little to test upon, we are though talking about claims to a deity from religious works, if that is flawed the whole concept is flawed

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:06 pm

this is so amazing how do you win an argument with yourself, must say it's griping stuff..

i wonder which of him will remember the original claim was that they could disprove faith, i'm with didgerytwo...

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Post by Eilzel on Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:07 pm

heavenly father wrote:oh wow i wish i could have two windows open on the same webpage... :D 

you both said you could disprove faith  by the way... :D 

Who are you referring to apart from didge? I have never said I could disprove faith. I do believe you can disprove religions and explain why God is almost certainly not real- but not disprove faith- that wouldn't make any sense, I leave that kind of lack of thinking to yourself  Laughing 

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:09 pm

heavenly father wrote:this is so amazing how do you win an argument with yourself, must say it's griping stuff..

i wonder which of him will remember the original claim was that they could disprove faith, i'm with didgerytwo...



I am still proving faith when based upon religions like yours can be disprove, Eilzel may not agree but faiths are based upon written man made myths. So what happens when a person turns away from faith, have they thus just proved their faith wrong?

Take your time

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:10 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:this is so amazing how do you win an argument with yourself, must say it's griping stuff..

i wonder which of him will remember the original claim was that they could disprove faith, i'm with didgerytwo...



I am still proving faith when based upon religions like yours can be disprove, Eilzel may not agree but faiths are based upon written man made myths. So what happens when a person turns away from faith, have they thus just proved their faith wrong?

Take your time

we've been here you cannot disprove faith..lol... :D 

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:11 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:



I am still proving faith when based upon religions like yours can be disprove, Eilzel may not agree but faiths are based upon written man made myths. So what happens when a person turns away from faith, have they thus just proved their faith wrong?

Take your time

we've been here you cannot disprove faith..lol... :D 



Seem,s I am and you cannot counter the fact it can oh my, So what happens when a person turns away from faith, have they thus just proved their faith wrong?

 :D

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