Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

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Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Didge on Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:45 pm

Jeffrey Bloodworth, associate professor of history at Gannon University, is the author of Losing the Center: The Decline of American Liberalism, 1968–1992 (2013). 





The Democrats’ “Long Peace” is over. Nearly half a century removed from its last circular firing squad, the Bernie-Hillary feud threatens to revive the nastiest of past intraparty battles. This should hardly surprise; the world’s longest-lived political party has been fractious from its inception.





A disparate, heterogeneous coalition, Democrats have long lacked cultural unity. Indeed, the post-Civil War Democratic Party was comprised of the white South and northern, urban Catholics. Adding to the party’s absent cultural cohesion, the Civil War caused many northerners to equate secession with the “Democrats” and question its members’ patriotism. It was not only Southerners’ Americanness that was suspect, the Democrat’s northern base – immigrant Catholics – were also dubious in their allegiances. The party of “Rum, Romanism, & Rebellion” was, in the eyes of the GOP, not fully American.

An assumption born of deep historical wounds and religious intolerance, twentieth century Democrats still bear the stigma of cultural outcasts from the “real” America. The natural political home of outsiders and the alienated, Democrats have welcomed agrarian radicals, African Americans, antiwar protesters, and Colin Kaepernick into their ranks. Bandying an agenda of the economically aggrieved and ethnic minorities, twenty first century Democrats carry their party’s historic reputation with them. As a result, they, more so than the GOP, must “center” their agenda to render it palatable to Middle American voters wary of a culturally suspect party.


Centrism is a scorned tactic in today’s “rule or ruin” political landscape. At its worst, and most banal, centrism amounts to little more than unprincipled, split-the-difference politics. But centrism can, and should be, more than putting the veritable finger into the political winds and following the majority. From the Torah to the Founders, moderation has long been a prized disposition. Indeed, the Founders’ compromises at the Constitutional Convention established conciliation as an archetype of patriotic political behavior. They understood that forcing your views upon others inevitably spurs backlash. Rush Limbaugh or the Daily Show’s monologues may be emotionally satisfying, but democracy requires dialogue.


The Democratic Party has always performed most capably when it is in dialogue with Middle America. Sitting at an ideological crossroads, party activists would serve their cause well by heeding this past. Bernie Sanders’s surprising strength coupled with Hillary Clinton’s stunning defeat has sparked a much-needed intraparty debate. This dispute has drawn the obvious, and fitting, comparison to the party’s last major imbroglio; that battle that pitted New Politics liberals against the establishment’s New Deal Democrats for the course of post-1968 liberalism.


In my book, Losing the Center: The Decline of American Liberalism, 1968-1992, I argue that the New Deal coalition collapsed because liberals forfeited the political center. New Politics liberals intentionally and consciously disposed of the Roosevelt coalition for a novel alliance comprised of racial minorities, the young, the poor, and themselves, the educated middle class. In 1972, that coalition accounted for George McGovern’s paltry vote share, 37.5 percent. For the ensuing two decades, New Politics liberals piloted the Democratic Party to defeat after defeat on the backs of this grouping. The outcome was neither foreordained or forced upon liberals; they opted for political malpractice and the Reagan era commenced.


To many, the McGovern-Sanders analogy is an obvious object lesson for contemporary liberals. To this way of thinking, Democrats shifting left will inevitably take them down a McGovern path. Though this parallel has much to recommend it, analogizing with the past is not so linear and neat. Bogged down by its “cultural outcast” reputation, Democrats, more so than Republicans, must pitch their vision to the broad center. But this is not tantamount to an unchanging center wherein liberals are forever fighting on the political terrain of the 1970s and 1980s.


The political center of 2017 can be found in the same place as in 1968: Middle America. Less a geographic designation than a social and economic class, Middle Americans constitute a numerical and cultural majority. The venerable sociologist, Herbert Gans, defines Middle Americans as the “working and lower middle class,” or those with incomes lying between the 31st to the 71st percentiles. Hailing from small towns and suburbs in regions (mostly) between the coasts, whites of modest incomes and middling education proffer a distinctive cultural brand, popular individualism, that dictates their political behavior.


Distrustful of large institutions and collective action, Middle Americans pursue a defensive form of self-reliance. With personal economic security as their lodestar, they vote their perceived interests. In the Reagan era, the seeming obstacles were law-and-order and an overbearing state. As the party of civil rights and statism, Democrats were viewed as soft on crime and feckless state builders. In his classic examination of the 1970s electorate, The Real Majority, Ben Wattenberg warned Democrats about the dangers of losing Middle America. By dispensing with Middle America, Wattenberg rightly predicted the McGovern coalition had doomed itself to defeat.


But 2017 is not 1972. The Reagan era has passed. The election of a multiracial law professor and a race baiting, casino hustler to the presidency emphasizes this reality. Thus, the old issues and enemies of Middle American have changed. Rather than don bell bottom jeans and assume they are involved in an historical reenactment of the 1970s, Democrats should dispose of binary thinking. The party is not confronted with a zero sum game choice between Clintonism and Sandernistas. Sound policy that balances the necessity of economic dynamism with the societal obligation of mass material security is the primary issue of the era.


The responsible members of the Sanders and Clinton wings are equally adept at producing sound ideas. Their policy and rhetoric should be crafted in a manner that respects Middle America’s popular individualist ethos.


This political Rubik’s Cube is eminently solvable. FDR’s Social Security and LBJ’s Medicare programs are politically unassailable because they jibe with Middle American values. After a lifetime of labor, a retiree “earns” Social Security; likewise, the sweat equity of life and work entitles the elderly to the socialized medicine of Medicare. Middle America will reject a Swedish welfare state, but will heartily back “earned” entitlements.


Middle America views Democrats with wariness. They suspect the party lies outside the cultural mainstream. As New Deal Democrats revealed, sound policy pitched in a manner that respects Middle America’s worldview has (and can) overcome this perception. Democrats confront a choice; the center is theirs for the taking; reject the binary trap, Clinton-versus-Sanders thinking, for inspired moderation. In light of our current political dilemma, it is not hyperbole to proclaim that the fate of the “last best hope on earth” hangs in the balance. 



http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/167275



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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:24 pm

historynews wrote:Indeed, the Founders’ compromises at the Constitutional Convention established conciliation as an archetype of patriotic political behavior. They understood that forcing your views upon others inevitably spurs backlash. Rush Limbaugh or the Daily Show’s monologues may be emotionally satisfying, but democracy requires dialogue.

Do the cops help the bank robbers in the spirit of conciliation? The spirit of unity only works when the policy positions of the respective parties have some common ground. There's no common ground between cops and robbers...everything the latter wants, the former want to stop.

Where would conciliation have worked in this year's legislative agenda. Would Democrats want to help Republicans kill America with an absent healthcare? Would Democrats want to help Republicans rob the poor and pay the rich in this years Tax Cuts for the wealthy?

There can be nothing but division with the positions taken by the sides. The wise money is on a geographic division of the country.

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Didge on Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:38 pm

I thought prisons help rehabilitate criminals and cops have been known to help turn around the life of criminals

Poor reasoning yet again to invoke your prejudice

I would like to think Democrats would donate an organ, if a Republican needed one. 

Again you invoke and try to normalize hate based off a poor percerption and sterotype of a people based on political affilliation.

Its no different when people do the same with those religiously

Its fine to be critical of beliefs and things wrong done by people

To collectively promote division against people, is again no better than Trump or the EDL

Anyway, the article again proves the problem of Democrats becoming to left

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:59 pm

Didge wrote:I thought prisons help rehabilitate criminals and cops have been known to help turn around the life of criminals

Poor reasoning yet again to invoke your prejudice

Rehabilitation? You think the bank robbers went to prison for rehabilitation? No, they were stealing. Only after they change their policies can the cops work with them.

Didge wrote:I would like to think Democrats would donate an organ, if a Republican needed one. 

The Republican would decline if it was a Negro's organ.

Seriously, to return to the metaphor, the bank robbers are not looking for an organ. They want to steal....something that is the exact opposite of what the cops want. I'll reiterate: the policy differences are too mutually exclusive.

Didge wrote:Again you invoke and try to normalize hate based off a poor perception and stereotype of a people based on political affiliation.

We're talking specifics here. Republicans want people to die for lack of healthcare; Democrats want to save them. Republicans want to rob the poor and give to the rich in the Tax Cuts for the wealthy bill; Democrats want to prevent that. These are facts, not poor perception and stereotype.

Didge wrote:Its no different when people do the same with those religiously

Its fine to be critical of beliefs and things wrong done by people

To collectively promote division against people, is again no better than Trump or the EDL

Off-point.

Didge wrote:Anyway, the article again proves the problem of Democrats becoming to left

Ahah...now we get to your point: Things would be just fine, if only the cops would be reasonable and help the robbers rob the bank!! So you are talking about changing positions, only you want the other side to give in.

Sorry Charlie...ain't going to happen. Maybe when Neil Gorsuch resigns and admits that he was unconstitutionally appointed. Rolling Eyes

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Didge on Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:05 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Rehabilitation?  You think the bank robbers went to prison for rehabilitation?  No, they were stealing.  Only after they change their policies can the cops work with them.

Oh dear someone clearly failed to see the point made and continued to do so.

You are just continuing to regurgitate your same prejudice that you have now decided to drivel on this thread with.

So you now make a false claim that now all Republicans would deny an organ that would save their life, or their child based on the donar having dark skin.

And your evidence that every single Republican would do so?

You see its that sort of rubbish that renders you obsolete in such debates

I shall await someone with a tad more sense and not spout gibberish, as you have clearly done here

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:00 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Rehabilitation?  You think the bank robbers went to prison for rehabilitation?  No, they were stealing.  Only after they change their policies can the cops work with them.

Oh dear someone clearly failed to see the point made and continued to do so.

You are just continuing to regurgitate your same prejudice that you have now decided to drivel on this thread with.

So you now make a false claim that now all Republicans would deny an organ that would save their life, or their child based on the donar having dark skin.

And your evidence that every single Republican would do so?

You see its that sort of rubbish that renders you obsolete in such debates

I shall await someone with a tad more sense and not spout gibberish, as you have clearly done here

What a mish-mash of confusion. Arguing with examples, again? First mistake. Obsolete? Or, you don't understand? I sense you are afraid to respond. Or, you've just run out of gas.

Let's see, which is the most cohesive theme to which I can respond:

Didge wrote:You are just continuing to regurgitate your same prejudice that you have now decided to drivel on this thread with.

Yes, I am consistent, proud to say...it comes from having a clear point and pursuing it persistently.

Oh, and um, adjectives are not arguments.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:46 am




There was a time when Dems were not so abnormal. Shocked

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:57 am

Yet we have a tax bill presently before Congress that promises to tax the hell out of the ordinary guy, in order to enrich the wealthy.  All because the Republicans feel they must pay back the Koch Bros. for financing their vacation in Congress.

They didn't do anything when they didn't have the White House.  Now they don't do anything when they do have the WH and both Houses of Congress.  But they've got to pay back the Kochs and the Mercers, for the free ride.

Republicans would fuck up a wet dream.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:17 am

Original Quill wrote:Yet we have a tax bill presently before Congress that promises to tax the hell out of the ordinary guy, in order to enrich the wealthy.  All because the Republicans feel they must pay back the Koch Bros. for financing their vacation in Congress.

They didn't do anything when they didn't have the White House.  Now they don't do anything when they do have the WH and both Houses of Congress.  But they've got to pay back the Kochs and the Mercers, for the free ride.

Republicans would fuck up a wet dream.

The Republican plan is a bit weak. In fact they are probably left of where Kennedy was. The tax bill just nibbles around the edges. Cut taxes in half for everyone that actually pays, and I'll be impressed. Wink

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:01 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Yet we have a tax bill presently before Congress that promises to tax the hell out of the ordinary guy, in order to enrich the wealthy.  All because the Republicans feel they must pay back the Koch Bros. for financing their vacation in Congress.

They didn't do anything when they didn't have the White House.  Now they don't do anything when they do have the WH and both Houses of Congress.  But they've got to pay back the Kochs and the Mercers, for the free ride.

Republicans would fuck up a wet dream.


The Republican plan is a bit weak. In fact they are probably left of where Kennedy was. The tax bill just nibbles around the edges. Cut taxes in half for everyone that actually pays, and I'll be impressed. Wink  

pirat

Halve your already low rates of taxation  ???

Then watch half your schools and universities, and maybe a fifth of your hospitals, close overnight..

Then there's all that infrastructure that requires maintenance --  introduce more "user pays" levies, and half your fellow counyrymen would have to stop using a lot of your roads, highways, beaches, libraries, garbage ad recycling services..

And then there would be all of those cutbacks on police, emergency services and military spending  -- all those "one percenters" would be wetting themselves.    

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Didge on Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:12 am

Original Quill wrote:

What a mish-mash of confusion.  Arguing with examples, again?  First mistake.  Obsolete?  Or, you don't understand?  I sense you are afraid to respond.  Or, you've just run out of  gas.

Let's see, which is the most cohesive theme to which I can respond:

Yes, I am consistent, proud to say...it comes from having a clear point and pursuing it persistently.

Oh, and um, adjectives are not arguments.


Yet more claptrap.

You made claims.

You need to back up those claims

Stop misdirecting and do so

Yes you are consistantly full of prejudice and hateful crap

That is very evident.

So lets prove just hateful you are and a liar


Do Democrats Make Better Neighbors?

Possibly, though not if you need a kidney, or your plants watered while you’re away

In another measure of community engagement, Democrats are also more directly involved in political life: they’re more likely than self-identified “strong Republicans” to contact a public official, sign a petition, work for a political party, or join a lawful demonstration. Depending on your stance on bumper stickers and yard signs, this can be either a good thing or a bad thing in a neighbor.

But the data are by no means one-way. For certain tasks, like watering your plants or taking care of your pets while you’re away, Republicans are a better choice. They’re also more likely to give of themselves in the most literal sense, through organ donations.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/12/do-democrats-make-better-neighbors/354676/

Lets see if you have some humility and what you should have said is that people are unlikely to have an organ donated from a Democrat

Lets see if you poorly try to misdirect again and claim no Republican would except an organ donation from an African American without evidence again.

You see the problem with you Quill, is that you are no different to smelly in your prejudice.

Now I think there is plenty wrong with Republican beliefs. Just as I do with religious beliefs and Far Right and Far left political beliefs. But I do not make absurd claims castigating an entire group of people as you and smelly do.

You fail to see you use the same poor fear based arguments and look to segregate and divide people. Instead of being critical of beliefs, reasoning if something is wrong. Peoples views have consistantly changed in history due to reason.

Maybe its time, some of that reason got through that thick skull of yours.
Promoting hate achieves nothing, but more hate. You end up feeding that virus, hate and that virus then continues to grow.

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by smelly-bandit on Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:00 am

The left aren't left enough for my liking

They need to go so far they make Corbyn look like a righty

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:14 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:The left aren't left enough for my liking

They need to go so far they make Corbyn look like a righty

Wait until the Pacific States of America comes into being. You will see left with all the beauty of Cabo, with Whistler and Squaw together.

cheers

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“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:34 pm

Yes quill we have seen your beautiful dream...it was showcased in a film a while back

demolition man

During their incarceration, the "Great Earthquake" of 2010 leads the cities of Los Angeles, San Diego, and Santa Barbara to merge into a single metropolis under the name San Angeles. The city becomes a utopia run under the pseudo-pacifist guidance and control of the evangelistic Dr. Raymond Cocteau


you would make a good Dr Cocteau

you cant have salt becasue "they" dont think you should
you cant have sex because "they" dont think you should
you cant have "real" meat because "they" dont think you should
you cant do (well almost anything) because "they" dont think you should

HOWEVER

you WILL live in an infantilised society because "they" think you should
you WILL eat only the prescribed foods because "they" think you should
etc etc etc

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:05 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The Republican plan is a bit weak. In fact they are probably left of where Kennedy was. The tax bill just nibbles around the edges. Cut taxes in half for everyone that actually pays, and I'll be impressed. Wink  

pirat

Halve your already low rates of taxation  ???

Then watch half your schools and universities, and maybe a fifth of your hospitals, close overnight..

Then there's all that infrastructure that requires maintenance --  introduce more "user pays" levies, and half your fellow counyrymen would have to stop using a lot of your roads, highways, beaches, libraries, garbage ad recycling services..

And then there would be all of those cutbacks on police, emergency services and military spending  -- all those "one percenters" would be wetting themselves.    

How did we manage with no federal income tax? If we survived at 0, we can survive at half what we have now. And BTW, we had universities, police departments, roads and a military.

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by smelly-bandit on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:10 pm

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:The left aren't left enough for my liking

They need to go so far they make Corbyn look like a righty

Wait until the Pacific States of America comes into being.  You will see left with all the beauty of Cabo, with Whistler and Squaw together.

cheers

so rioting on the streets, doctors eating their own children, the police shooting protestors and the 1% watching it all from their ivory towers??

i think its a grand plan, lets hope the god emperor extends his wall to include cali.


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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:58 am

Lord Foul wrote:Yes quill we have seen your beautiful dream...it was showcased in a film a while back

demolition man

Never saw it.  So we just can't communicate about that.

What I can comment on, and you are watching, is that we live in most unusual times.  We live in an age of critical dissolution.    Back in the era of GWB I predicted the demise of the Repaedocan Party.  All that is changed is that I now predict the demise of the US...but a small step further.

Normalcy has turned on its head.  We have a president who is an under-boss to the Russian mafia, who brags about his prowess with the pussies of women, and who will handle North Korea rather like he handled Puerto Rico.  You can't tell me you feel this is normal.

So, I make an abnormal suggestion about the future of the nation.  You were sure Trump wouldn't win the presidency.  Are you similarly  sure that the west coast won't leave?  What about after North Korea nukes Washington?

We live in unusual times, my friend.

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“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:32 am

yet quill you fail to address the points...go find out about the film...granted its hardly highbrow stuff, indeed its probably more a comedy than anything else, but it does show a glimpse of your utopia

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If at any time in 2017 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2018 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:28 pm

Lord Foul wrote:yet quill you fail to address the points...go find out about the film...granted its hardly highbrow stuff, indeed its probably more a comedy than anything else, but it does show a glimpse of your utopia

Sounds entertaining, but I never go to movies.  The last movie I went to was Crocodile Dundee, with my daughters...who are now a lawyer and a physician, and are not interested in films either.  At best, your film would be an analogy.  I'm busy doing more important things.

I am not describing a utopia.  I am simply describing a political entity not on the verge of civil war, as the US seems to be today. I speak of the US as that other country, as I now kinda feel allegiance to California without the trash heap.

It would be nice to have like-minded people, who are not engaging in internecine as Republicans are wont to do with the US.  We could have that with the PSA.  The US is over and done...give it time and you will see.

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:33 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The Republican plan is a bit weak. In fact they are probably left of where Kennedy was. The tax bill just nibbles around the edges. Cut taxes in half for everyone that actually pays, and I'll be impressed. Wink  

pirat

Halve your already low rates of taxation  ???

Then watch half your schools and universities, and maybe a fifth of your hospitals, close overnight..

Then there's all that infrastructure that requires maintenance --  introduce more "user pays" levies, and half your fellow counyrymen would have to stop using a lot of your roads, highways, beaches, libraries, garbage ad recycling services..

And then there would be all of those cutbacks on police, emergency services and military spending  -- all those "one percenters" would be wetting themselves.    

How did we manage with no federal income tax? If we survived at 0, we can survive at half what we have now. And BTW, we had universities, police departments, roads and a military.

I believe you had much higher tariffs on goods then to make up for lack of income tax.
the USA already has the lowest tax rate in the west.
Tax isn't such a bad thing, what is annoying is when they don't spend it wisely

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Re: Listen Democrats: You Won’t Win by Leaping Leftward

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:21 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
pirat

Halve your already low rates of taxation  ???

Then watch half your schools and universities, and maybe a fifth of your hospitals, close overnight..

Then there's all that infrastructure that requires maintenance --  introduce more "user pays" levies, and half your fellow counyrymen would have to stop using a lot of your roads, highways, beaches, libraries, garbage ad recycling services..

And then there would be all of those cutbacks on police, emergency services and military spending  -- all those "one percenters" would be wetting themselves.    

How did we manage with no federal income tax? If we survived at 0, we can survive at half what we have now. And BTW, we had universities, police departments, roads and a military.

Arrow

If Texas only had half the revenue currently being returned from your Federal gov't, than the Texas state government than has to increase it's various sales taxes, levies, stamp duties and fees in proportion, to make up the shortfall...

Over the long run that would probably mean the poorest and middle-income groups paying more taxes overall,  and the high income and wealthy people paying less; (and even less again, when expressed as a % of their total incomes, than they do now..).
With even less people in the lower socio-economic groups finishing school, and even less attending colleges and uni's.

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