The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

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The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed 25 Oct 2017 - 16:36

First topic message reminder :




http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/24/politics/fusion-gps-clinton-campaign/index.html


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41752908




Oh dear indeed...!!!



The Clinton democrats pay a company to produce a load of smear stories against another presidential election candidate (namely Trump)... collated with the paid help of a foreigner (allegedly a former British intelligence officer), and from information he allegedly got from Russian secret service/intelligence officers...


While also constantly crying about 'Russian meddling' in election... and how wrong it is for any foreigners to be involved in trying to influence the election in any way...!!!



lol!




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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by smelly-bandit on Mon 30 Oct 2017 - 10:58

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

It's not coercion or a threat

It's saying "you got caught, you can have a needle for free or you can take life, the cost of your life is X"

UM...is there an echo in here?  That's what I just said.

Arguing over the definition of "coercion" seems to be a waste of our time.  We could call it 'arm-twisting'.  We could call it "compulsion', 'browbeating', 'bulldozing'...any number of things.  

It's the application of the bargaining threat: IF you do this, THAN I'll do that...

Your model just emphasizes the "THAN" side, as you seem to gravitate toward the misery side of everything.  Coercion is always a bargain proposition.  Else you would just go ahead and do it.  

Errrrrr no

You're talking using force and or threats to achieve your objective.

Offering a person the choice between a bite of a shit burger and eating the whole thing in exchange for something you want is different to saying "eat the whole shit burger and give me what I want or I'll make you eat 10 of them"


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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by Original Quill on Mon 30 Oct 2017 - 11:32

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

UM...is there an echo in here?  That's what I just said.

Arguing over the definition of "coercion" seems to be a waste of our time.  We could call it 'arm-twisting'.  We could call it "compulsion', 'browbeating', 'bulldozing'...any number of things.  

It's the application of the bargaining threat: IF you do this, THAN I'll do that...

Your model just emphasizes the "THAN" side, as you seem to gravitate toward the misery side of everything.  Coercion is always a bargain proposition.  Else you would just go ahead and do it.  

Errrrrr no

You're talking using force and or threats  to achieve your objective.

Offering a person the choice between a bite of a shit burger and eating the whole thing in exchange for something you want  is different to saying "eat the whole shit burger and give me what I want or I'll make you eat 10 of them"

You're still offering a choice.  Use of choice of "force and/or threats to achieve your objective", is still bargaining.  Prosecutors use that tactic all the time.  You're confused between negotiation, and getting the fookin' job done.

(It's interesting: that's the same dilemma that RW'ers have with their wars...they don't know how to finish the job!)

BTW...Why do you offer a choice at all, if not bargaining?  Either you're talking, or your doing.  You would make a piss-poor assassin.

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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by smelly-bandit on Mon 30 Oct 2017 - 11:44

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

Errrrrr no

You're talking using force and or threats  to achieve your objective.

Offering a person the choice between a bite of a shit burger and eating the whole thing in exchange for something you want  is different to saying "eat the whole shit burger and give me what I want or I'll make you eat 10 of them"

You're still offering a choice.  Use of choice of "force and/or threats to achieve your objective", is still bargaining.  Prosecutors use that tactic all the time.  You're confused between negotiation, and getting the fookin' job done.

(It's interesting: that's the same dilemma that RW'ers have with their wars...they don't know how to finish the job!)

BTW...Why do you offer a choice at all, if not bargaining?  Either you're talking, or your doing.  You would make a piss-poor assassin.

So you think me holding a gun to your head and saying "sign this confession and implicate the people I tell you to or I kill you" (coercion)

Is the same as me saying "if you sign the confession and name names I'll halve your sentence but if you don't ill give you the maximum sentence I can" (bargaining)???

The reason the prosecution offers choices and bargains is for something in return, not for the feel good factor of reducing a criminals sentence.

I think you're confusing coercion with extortion

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- Frantz Fanon
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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by Original Quill on Mon 30 Oct 2017 - 12:10

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You're still offering a choice.  Use of choice of "force and/or threats to achieve your objective", is still bargaining.  Prosecutors use that tactic all the time.  You're confused between negotiation, and getting the fookin' job done.

(It's interesting: that's the same dilemma that RW'ers have with their wars...they don't know how to finish the job!)

BTW...Why do you offer a choice at all, if not bargaining?  Either you're talking, or your doing.  You would make a piss-poor assassin.

So you think me holding a gun to your head and saying "sign this confession and implicate the people I tell you to or I kill you" (coercion)

Is the same as me saying "if you sign the confession and name names I'll halve your sentence but if you don't ill give you the maximum sentence I can" (bargaining)???

The reason the prosecution offers choices and bargains is for something in return, not for the feel good factor of reducing a criminals sentence.

I think you're confusing coercion with extortion

Russ, I'm amused at all this twisting and writhing to avoid a simple, clear truth: bargaining is a generic fact. Like talking...both sides do it.

In order to avoid unfair bargaining, courts hold allocution hearings, in which the defendant is warned of his rights, and he gives his 'truth'.

But bargaining is bargaining. Nothing is ever given for nothing. If you've got a guy dead to rights, and he has nothing to offer, you go right to trial and don't negotiate.

There is no difference between coercion and extortion. Coercion = "the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats"; Extortion ="the practice of obtaining something through force or threats." Extortion is a sub-category of coercion, usually when the doer is the bad guy.

SB wrote:The reason the prosecution offers choices and bargains is for something in return, not for the feel good factor of reducing a criminals sentence.

You're living this fantasy that the court systems are all liberal, and they are giving breaks to everyone. Typical RW'er. Believe me, prosecutors don't get credits for giving away cases. Prosecutors are like pawn brokers...you evaluate a case on what you can get for it.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by smelly-bandit on Mon 30 Oct 2017 - 12:25

Yeah your basically just making my point.

Coercion is not bargaining

Coercion forces a person to do something you want in exchange for avoiding punishment.

You can coerce a normal person but You cannot coerce a law breaker

Criminals already have punishment inbound, you cannot force or coerce a criminal to accept a deal, you can bargain with them.

You've got it wrong Quill

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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by Original Quill on Mon 30 Oct 2017 - 12:53

smelly-bandit wrote:Yeah your basically just making my point.

Coercion is not bargaining

Coercion forces a person to do something you want in exchange for avoiding punishment.

You can coerce a normal person but You cannot coerce a law breaker

Criminals already have punishment inbound, you cannot force or coerce a criminal to accept a deal, you can bargain with them.

You've got it wrong Quill

You're arguing definitions, Russ.  It's therefore a semantic argument.  There is no right or wrong in semantics; semantics can mean whatever you want them to mean.  You are trying to find a rule, where language is a man-made enterprise.

A bargaining can be over anything...good or bad.  Do you deny that coercion may be used in bargaining?  Do you deny that extortion may be used in bargaining?  No.  Bargaining is everywhere.  All right, let's dispense with the chit-chat.

Bargaining is simply a process where two or more conflicting viewpoints narrow down until there is agreement.  Criminal law is a process of conflict resolution.  You resolve conflicts by bargaining.  

You can bargain with anything--money, or valuables--or you can bargain with threats and intimidation.  The latter is called coercion, or on it's unhealthy side, extortion.  At their core, coercion and extortion are the same thing.

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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by smelly-bandit on Mon 30 Oct 2017 - 15:22

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:Yeah your basically just making my point.

Coercion is not bargaining

Coercion forces a person to do something you want in exchange for avoiding punishment.

You can coerce a normal person but You cannot coerce a law breaker

Criminals already have punishment inbound, you cannot force or coerce a criminal to accept a deal, you can bargain with them.

You've got it wrong Quill

You're arguing definitions, Russ.  It's therefore a semantic argument.  There is no right or wrong in semantics; semantics can mean whatever you want them to mean.  You are trying to find a rule, where language is a man-made enterprise.

A bargaining can be over anything...good or bad.  Do you deny that coercion may be used in bargaining?  Do you deny that extortion may be used in bargaining?  No.  Bargaining is everywhere.  All right, let's dispense with the chit-chat.

Bargaining is simply a process where two or more conflicting viewpoints narrow down until there is agreement.  Criminal law is a process of conflict resolution.  You resolve conflicts by bargaining.  

You can bargain with anything--money, or valuables--or you can bargain with threats and intimidation.  The latter is called coercion, or on it's unhealthy side, extortion.  At their core, coercion and extortion are the same thing.

its not semantics

youre wrong

you cannot coerce a criminal to accept your bargain.

you can coerce a normal person because they have something to lose.

a criminal is ALREADY up shits creeks, you cannot coerce him to do what you want or you will send him into into shits creek when he is already there, you can however extort him by using the precariousness of his situation as a bargaining chip.

ie do what i want and ill give you a paddle.

for you to say that coercion is standard practice in US law fills me with dread at the thought of how many innocents have been sent down so that power hungry prosecutors could get what they want

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“Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize,ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief."

- Frantz Fanon
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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by Original Quill on Mon 30 Oct 2017 - 17:49

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You're arguing definitions, Russ.  It's therefore a semantic argument.  There is no right or wrong in semantics; semantics can mean whatever you want them to mean.  You are trying to find a rule, where language is a man-made enterprise.

A bargaining can be over anything...good or bad.  Do you deny that coercion may be used in bargaining?  Do you deny that extortion may be used in bargaining?  No.  Bargaining is everywhere.  All right, let's dispense with the chit-chat.

Bargaining is simply a process where two or more conflicting viewpoints narrow down until there is agreement.  Criminal law is a process of conflict resolution.  You resolve conflicts by bargaining.  

You can bargain with anything--money, or valuables--or you can bargain with threats and intimidation.  The latter is called coercion, or on it's unhealthy side, extortion.  At their core, coercion and extortion are the same thing.

its not semantics

youre wrong

you cannot coerce a criminal to accept your bargain.

you can coerce a normal person because they have something to lose.

a criminal is ALREADY up shits creeks, you cannot coerce him to do what you want or you will send him into into shits creek when he is already there, you can however extort him by using the precariousness of his situation as a bargaining chip.

ie do what i want and ill give you a paddle.

for you to say that coercion is standard practice in US law fills me with dread at the thought of how many innocents have been sent down so that power hungry prosecutors could get what they want

Get used to it. How do you think they got former VP Spiro Agnew in Maryland? How do you think they got Nixon to resign? It's called: I'll make him an offer he can't refuse.

It's been around since time began. It's called coercion...something that's used every day in legal plea bargaining. Haven't you ever watched Law and Order?

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon 30 Oct 2017 - 18:10

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Didge... you still don't seem to be grasping things here...!


The topic of this thread is the alleged involvement of the Clinton team/democrats in funding of a smear dossier against Trump, and the using of foreigners/Russians to provide the content of dossier, and with the intention of trying to influence the result of the election...!

Please stay on topic, or stay away from this thread.

Or you will be reported for disruption!

Laughing

Clinton hired a law firm, the law firm hired an investigator who happened to be Brit.  The research was paid for...no wrongs.

Pussy-grabber took data that was stolen, in violation of the CFAA (receiving stolen goods), from a foreign entity, and failed to pay for it...which is receiving a campaign contribution from a foreign government, a violation of the campaign funding laws.

It so happens that the Brit, former MI-6 Christopher Steel, found other dealings with Trump, which are all recorded in the 'dossier'--hence the importance, and why the Trump folks want to discredit it.  Inter alia, it involves money-laundering, with human traffickers and prostitution, unrecorded financing, trading official favors for money, violations of many different laws, and ultimately a whole criminal enterprise.

The first of many indictments have been handed down as of Friday.  It's sealed, so we'll find out who it is on Monday.



So Clinton/democrats have been paying foreigners/Russians to get involved in operations that were completely about meddling in the US pres election, and trying to influence the result in favour of Clinton/democrats...!?


Thanks for admitting that...!


Although for the last few months, it has been the Clinton/democrats who have been so vocal of their condemnation of anyone who would dare to do such a thing...!!!


Falsely accusing Trump of 'collusion with Russians' all this time... when it was the Clinton/democrats who were up to no good all along!!!



Also...It's Monday now... any news on the indictments...!!!???


Laughing



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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by smelly-bandit on Tue 31 Oct 2017 - 1:44

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

its not semantics

youre wrong

you cannot coerce a criminal to accept your bargain.

you can coerce a normal person because they have something to lose.

a criminal is ALREADY up shits creeks, you cannot coerce him to do what you want or you will send him into into shits creek when he is already there, you can however extort him by using the precariousness of his situation as a bargaining chip.

ie do what i want and ill give you a paddle.

for you to say that coercion is standard practice in US law fills me with dread at the thought of how many innocents have been sent down so that power hungry prosecutors could get what they want

Get used to it.  How do you think they got former VP Spiro Agnew in Maryland?  How do you think they got Nixon to resign?    It's called: I'll make him an offer he can't refuse.

It's been around since time began.  It's called coercion...something that's used every day in legal plea bargaining.  Haven't you ever watched Law and Order?

Law and order, is that where you got your law degree

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- Frantz Fanon
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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by smelly-bandit on Tue 31 Oct 2017 - 1:54

EXCLUSIVE: DNC Official Says She Doesn't Want To Recruit 'Cisgender Straight White Males'

Employees within the Democratic National Committee are looking for new employees in the Technology Department. However, the DNC is apparently not interested in your resume if you happen to be a white male.

In an email issued to DNC insiders on Monday, Data Services manager Madeleine Leader announced that the Technology Department is looking to fill several positions and asked interested parties to forward the openings to their colleagues

She included the following caveat:

I personally would prefer that you not forward to cisgender straight white males, since they're already in the majority.

In response to this email, an anonymous DNC source told The Daily Wire the following:

Clearly the DNC is doubling down on a failed strategy that has alienated staffers and voters alike. We want to be judged based on the quality of our work, not on identity politics. How can we trust the leadership of the DNC if they don’t even trust us?

The Daily Wire contacted Ms. Leader about the contents of her email, but she declined to comment.

After the latest scandals to plague the Democratic National Committee during the 2016 presidential election, the new leadership under Tom Perez and Keith Ellison (D-MN) seek to rebrand the party as a more inclusive and welcoming community. Unfortunately, this email doesn't exactly help their case.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/22939/exclusive-dnc-official-discriminates-against-elliott-hamilton

Disgusting racism from the Democratic party

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- Frantz Fanon
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Re: The depths of hypocrisy/lies/spin of the USA democrats knows no bounds

Post by Original Quill on Tue 31 Oct 2017 - 12:15

Tommy Monk wrote:So Clinton/democrats have been paying foreigners/Russians to get involved in operations that were completely about meddling in the US pres election, and trying to influence the result in favour of Clinton/democrats...!?

Well, Clinton wasn't dealing with Russians.  That was Trump.

Clinton was paying a law firm, which in turn hired a trained British former MI-6 agent to do investigative work overseas.  It was a straight 'for hire' transaction.

Quite different from Trump, who accepted gratuities and favors from the Russians, without paying for them--a violation of campaign finance laws.  Also, what Trump received was stolen property, a violation of the federal CFAA.  Moreover, Trump had these Russian contacts as he had been laundering money for the Russian slave trade, a funnel for prostitution all over the world.  Trump himself is comfortable dealing with these criminals, as he prefers underage girls himself.  
Frock Collection wrote:
Report: Trump Threw Hotel Sex Parties With Underage Girls, 'A Lot Of Cocaine, Top-Shelf Liquor'
BY JEN CHUNG IN NEWS ON OCT 25, 2016

Now that Donald Trump's zeal for kissing and groping unsuspecting women is out in the open, more and more stories of his loathsome behavior have emerged. The latest comes from Michael Gross, chronicler of New York City's high-life, who spoke with two men who say Trump was known for throwing debauched hotel parties with underage girls and much older men. In the Daily Beast, Gross writes, "I’m sorry, Ivanka, I really am, but here’s the sad truth: Your dad’s not a dog. He’s a pig."

Earlier in the summer, Gross wrote about "Trump’s history as what’s commonly referred to as a model-fucker" and how he started a modeling agency as a "date farm": "In 1999, actor Leonardo di Caprio, by then already a noted modelizer himself, was quoted in the Times of London memorably describing Trump’s poser business as 'one-stop date-shopping.'"

In that story, Gross, who has written two books about the fashion industry, one about modeling and the other about photography, mentioned "meet-and-greet parties Trump threw in a suite at New York’s iconic Plaza Hotel." Now, two men "put Donald Trump in the room with cocaine, very young women and underage girls, and rich, old men there to—pardon my language, but if the Times can say pussy on its front page, I can say this—fuck them."

Young models were attracted to the fêtes with a simple, time-tested pitch. “You’ll meet rich guys who will help you,” says the photographer. “It was networking, but on a weird, bizarre scale.”

The girls were as young as 15, he says, and “over their heads, they had no idea, and they ended up in situations. There were always dramas because the men threw money and drugs at them to keep them enticed. It’s based on power and dominating girls who can’t push back and can be discarded. There’s always someone to pick them back up. Nobody wants to call home and say ‘Help me.’”

Trump would “go from room to room,” said the photographer, who added that “I was there to party myself. It was guys with younger girls, sex, a lot of sex, a lot of cocaine, top-shelf liquor” but no smoking. Trump didn’t approve of cigarettes.

The photographer, who was granted anonymity, said, "Trump was in and out. He’d wander off with a couple girls. I saw him. He was getting laid like crazy. Trump was at the heart of it. He loved the attention and in private, he was a total fucking beast."

The other man who confirmed Trump's presence was modeling executive (or "wrangler" for the parties) Andy Lucchesi, who said, "I don’t want to get him in trouble. I like Donald. I respect the guy. People should want to know about Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Clinton" (Epstein, a billionaire sex offender who is accused of being a pedophile, is good friends with both the former president and our possible future president; for further reading see this lawsuit accusing Trump of raping a teenager).

Replying to Gross's question about whether Trump had sex with female guests, Lucchesi said, "So, he’s a man with a woman," and, referring to the ages of the female guests, he said, "A lot of girls, 14, look 24. That’s as juicy as I can get. I never asked how old they were; I just partook. I did partake in activities that would be controversial, too."

Trump has denied sexually assaulting women—he says they are making up stories—and claims no one respects women more than him.
http://gothamist.com/2016/10/25/report_trump_did_trump_stuff.php

So notorious are Trump's crimes with underage girls that he has been sued for it:
Susan Wright wrote:
Donald Trump Named In Lawsuit Alleging Rape Of Teen Girl
April 29, 2016 by Susan Wright

It’s not that he’s pals with a convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein.

OH, wait… maybe it is.

A woman by the name of Katie Johnson has stepped forward to accuse Donald Trump, along with Epstein, of making her a sex slave in 1994. The abuse allegedly lasted for a 4 month stretch and began when she was only 13-years old.

For those who need a refresher, Jeffrey Epstein, wealthy pal of both Trump and former president Bill Clinton, plead guilty in 2008 to hiring an underage prostitute and was sentenced to 18 months in prison. He was released after 13 months for good behavior.

Some of the details are quite graphic. Of those charges, Trump is accused of tying the young girl to a bed and raping her, at one point.

Ms. Johnson claims that she begged Trump to use a condom, which he did not. When she expressed fear after the rape that he’d impregnated her, she said he angrily threw $100 bills at her and told her to “get a f***ing abortion.”

Such a gentleman, eh? But this is the attitude among Russian racketeers about women, and obviously it has rubbed off on Trump. He brags about grabbing pussy whenever he wants.

But let's not digress. The female slave trade is the least of his problems. His primary crime is that he took the favors of the Russians and in return he would pay it back by granting presidential acts favoring the Russians. Specifically, he promised to lift sanctions on Russia and the Russian Mafia (who run Russia). Selling acts of public office is illegal, and constitutes espionage in this case.

Then there's the transaction that gives him 20% of Rosneft Oil, the Russian State Oil company. But that's another story.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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