Scientists didn't "get it wrong"

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:52 am

First topic message reminder :

Just thinking about the comments you sometimes see -- "Scientists once thought the Sun revolves around the Earth." "Scientists once thought we think with our hearts." "Scientists once though leeches could cure you of illnesses."

No, no and no. None of the people who thought those things were scientists in the modern sense of the word; none of them used the scientific method to reach their conclusions.

In fact, most "science" before the mid-1800s was quite haphazard and prone to guessing and overall shoddy work. Leonardo DaVinci was the rare exception before the advent of modern science who put it quite poetically:

"Many think that they can with reason blame me, alleging that my proofs are contrary to the authority of certain men held in great reverence by their inexperienced judgments, not considering that my works are the issue of simple and plain experience which is the true mistress.

These rules enable you to know the true from the false – and this induces men to look only for things that are possible and with due moderation – and they forbid you to use a cloak of ignorance, which will bring about that you attain to no result and despair abandon yourself to melancholy."

I think it would be fair to say that comparing the "scientists" who came before the widespread use of the scientific method to today's scientists would be like comparing witch doctors to modern physicians.

... um, discuss.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:40 pm

Eilzel wrote:

Great lecture here by Richard Dawkins here on evolution (though I doubt the Father will watch it....).

Some key points:

Why gaps? Well first of all not EVERY human corpse will fossilize or remain in any form to be found- by sheer fortune we have those we do and there will be more. However without any such remains evolution would still be true. And to show how ludicrous the gaps argument is- Dawkins points out that say we have evolved humanoid A and a slightly more evolved humanoid B. The creationist says, there is a gap between A and B, evolution is BS!

Then we find humanoid AB, fitting perfectly between the previous 2 evolved humanoids. Evidence enough? No, no says the creationist. Now you just have 2 gaps. What came between A and AB? and what followed AB before becoming B? It's an infinite succession of gaps for the creationist...

Another point; if evolution was wrong; then we'd have fossils of animals existent today, Dawkins takes a rabbit for example, from million of years ago if they didn't 'evolve' as we know they did. However, we have no modern wild life remains from prehistoric eras- why? Because those species alive today have evolved from animals roaming the earth millions of years ago.

The link is well worth a watch, especially the first hour which is the lecture itself prior to questions. Dawkins may rile people with his strident atheism but on evolution he is flawless and takes care of every deluded (or ignorant) naysayer's arguments piece by piece.

The 'theory' of evolution is as much a fact as the 'theory' of gravity. Theory in this case meaning the explanation of a process which is proven, and undisputed due to solid evidence by anyone with a functioning brain  Smile

you should have a word with Ben he says science does do facts, you lot will make your mind up..

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:41 pm

heavenly father wrote:they are still rabbits a million years later..lol what has evolved..

still would like to know the mutations that cause species to change to another, or a different sex even.

You obviously haven't bothered to learn anything. Evolution doesn't mean that all species transform into others.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:42 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:they are still rabbits a million years later..lol what has evolved..

still would like to know the mutations that cause species to change to another, or a different sex even.

You obviously haven't bothered to learn anything. Evolution doesn't mean that all species transform into others.

so evolution was selective to humanity.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:52 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:they are still rabbits a million years later..lol what has evolved..

still would like to know the mutations that cause species to change to another, or a different sex even.

You obviously haven't bothered to learn anything. Evolution doesn't mean that all species transform into others.

so evolution was selective to humanity.

No! Please read some objective articles about this before we continue this debate. I am not here to lead you by the nose through every facet of a complex theory, and it's not my fault that you refuse to even expose yourself to the real claims rather than spouting such nonsense.

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:53 pm

heavenly father wrote:they are still rabbits a million years later..lol what has evolved..

still would like to know the mutations that cause species to change to another, or a different sex even.

If rabbits have always been rabbits; then why don't we have any rabbit remains from millions of years ago?
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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:54 pm

Eilzel wrote:
heavenly father wrote:they are still rabbits a million years later..lol what has evolved..

still would like to know the mutations that cause species to change to another, or a different sex even.

If rabbits have always been rabbits; then why don't we have any rabbit remains from millions of years ago?

i think they die every so often... :D 

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:56 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
heavenly father wrote:they are still rabbits a million years later..lol what has evolved..

still would like to know the mutations that cause species to change to another, or a different sex even.

If rabbits have always been rabbits; then why don't we have any rabbit remains from millions of years ago?

i think they die every so often... :D 

Wait, please don't tell me you think these mutations occur to animals while they're living? You don't think (please tell me) that someone out there said a living rabbit transformed spontaneously into something else, do you?

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:58 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

If rabbits have always been rabbits; then why don't we have any rabbit remains from millions of years ago?

i think they die every so often... :D 

Seriously? So do you not think that those fossilized remains we have of, you know, dinosaurs and mammoths, are animals that lived (and died, cool innit...) in prehistoric times?

To be honest it is rather obvious why you'd struggle to accept evolution when you do not even understand the concepts of both evolution and fossilization.

^  lol!  Ben I'm finding it hard to think he isn't on a wind up tbh  ::resmahauth:: 
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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:00 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

i think they die every so often... :D 

Wait, please don't tell me you think these mutations occur to animals while they're living? You don't think (please tell me) that someone out there said a living rabbit transformed spontaneously into something else, do you?

how could something dead mutate?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:01 pm

I'm asking whether you think that something mutates, after it's born, into something else.


Last edited by Ben_Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:03 pm

Eilzel wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

i think they die every so often... :D 

Seriously? So do you not think that those fossilized remains we have of, you know, dinosaurs and mammoths, are animals that lived (and died, cool innit...) in prehistoric times?

To be honest it is rather obvious why you'd struggle to accept evolution when you do not even understand the concepts of both evolution and fossilization.

^  lol!  Ben I'm finding it hard to think he isn't on a wind up tbh  ::resmahauth:: 

Just so. Check this out:

Rats could one day be bigger than COWS: Super-size rodents will evolve as larger mammals become extinct, claims scientist

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2551024/Rats-one-day-bigger-COWS-Super-size-rodents-evolve-larger-mammals-extinct-claims-scientist.html

Sod running into one of those!

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:04 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:I'm asking whether you think that something mutates after it's born into something else.

what!!! a mutation would have to occur during its life, the mutation would then have to be passed to it's offspring..

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:05 pm

Tess. wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

i think they die every so often... :D 

Seriously? So do you not think that those fossilized remains we have of, you know, dinosaurs and mammoths, are animals that lived (and died, cool innit...) in prehistoric times?

To be honest it is rather obvious why you'd struggle to accept evolution when you do not even understand the concepts of both evolution and fossilization.

^  lol!  Ben I'm finding it hard to think he isn't on a wind up tbh  ::resmahauth:: 

Just so.  Check this out:

Rats could one day be bigger than COWS: Super-size rodents will evolve as larger mammals become extinct, claims scientist

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2551024/Rats-one-day-bigger-COWS-Super-size-rodents-evolve-larger-mammals-extinct-claims-scientist.html

Sod running into one of those!

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0922_030922_giantrodent.html

Yikes.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:06 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Tess. wrote:

Just so.  Check this out:

Rats could one day be bigger than COWS: Super-size rodents will evolve as larger mammals become extinct, claims scientist

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2551024/Rats-one-day-bigger-COWS-Super-size-rodents-evolve-larger-mammals-extinct-claims-scientist.html

Sod running into one of those!

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0922_030922_giantrodent.html

Yikes.

super size rats are still rats, is bigger evolution, did big noses evolve from small noses..

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:09 pm

Tess. wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Seriously? So do you not think that those fossilized remains we have of, you know, dinosaurs and mammoths, are animals that lived (and died, cool innit...) in prehistoric times?

To be honest it is rather obvious why you'd struggle to accept evolution when you do not even understand the concepts of both evolution and fossilization.

^  lol!  Ben I'm finding it hard to think he isn't on a wind up tbh  ::resmahauth:: 

Just so.  Check this out:

Rats could one day be bigger than COWS: Super-size rodents will evolve as larger mammals become extinct, claims scientist

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2551024/Rats-one-day-bigger-COWS-Super-size-rodents-evolve-larger-mammals-extinct-claims-scientist.html

Sod running into one of those!

Yikes, and fucking ewwww! This is why it is a good thing evolution takes millions of years to become noticeable then  Cool 

(yes HF, that's a gradual process over millions of years, but down the X-men comics and read some proper science eh)
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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:13 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:I'm asking whether you think that something mutates after it's born into something else.

what!!! a mutation would have to occur during its life, the mutation would then have to be passed to it's offspring..

Wrong. Mutations occur primarily during the process of reproduction. You don't know the first thing about this.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:14 pm

any signs of any species changing mutations yet?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:15 pm

heavenly father wrote:any signs of any species changing mutations yet?

Any signs of airplanes jumping yet?

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:16 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:any signs of any species changing mutations yet?

Any signs of airplanes jumping yet?

yeah they call them helicopters. :D how's your list of mutations going.. :D 

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:18 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:any signs of any species changing mutations yet?

Any signs of airplanes jumping yet?

yeah they call them helicopters. :D how's your list of mutations going.. :D 

I don't owe you a list of mutations; I've given you a great list of links to start your education on this. It's not my fault if you're too obstinate to learn about it.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:21 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

yeah they call them helicopters. :D how's your list of mutations going.. :D 

I don't owe you a list of mutations; I've given you a great list of links to start your education on this. It's not my fault if you're too obstinate to learn about it.

i'm not obstinate, i know a lie when I see one and evolution is a lie, i doesn't add up, you don't own me a list of mutations, you don't owe me anything but if your so sure evolution is fact, which is actually contrary to what you said at first about science perhaps you should find the list of mutations that could change a species in to another.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:32 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

yeah they call them helicopters. :D how's your list of mutations going.. :D 

I don't owe you a list of mutations; I've given you a great list of links to start your education on this. It's not my fault if you're too obstinate to learn about it.

i'm not obstinate, i know a lie when I see one and evolution is a lie, i doesn't add up, you don't own me a list of mutations, you don't owe me anything but if your so sure evolution is fact, which is actually contrary to what you said at first about science perhaps you should find the list of mutations that could change a species in to another.

From your statements, you don't understand the theory of evolution at all, or even what "theory" means in scientific jargon, yet you argue that it's a lie. If that's not obstinate I don't know what is.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:33 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

i'm not obstinate, i know a lie when I see one and evolution is a lie, i doesn't add up, you don't own me a list of mutations, you don't owe me anything but if your so sure evolution is fact, which is actually contrary to what you said at first about science perhaps you should find the list of mutations that could change a species in to another.

From your statements, you don't understand the theory of evolution at all, or even what "theory" means in scientific jargon, yet you argue that it's a lie. If that's not obstinate I don't know what is.

what you mean is because i do not accept it, you think i do not understand it...lol

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:35 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

i'm not obstinate, i know a lie when I see one and evolution is a lie, i doesn't add up, you don't own me a list of mutations, you don't owe me anything but if your so sure evolution is fact, which is actually contrary to what you said at first about science perhaps you should find the list of mutations that could change a species in to another.

From your statements, you don't understand the theory of evolution at all, or even what "theory" means in scientific jargon, yet you argue that it's a lie. If that's not obstinate I don't know what is.

what you mean is because i do not accept it, you think i do not understand it...lol

No, because you've demonstrated that you don't understand any of the principles it's based upon. For example, your total cock-up on the point at which genetic mutations occurs.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:40 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

what you mean is because i do not accept it, you think i do not understand it...lol

No, because you've demonstrated that you don't understand any of the principles it's based upon. For example, your total cock-up on the point at which genetic mutations occurs.

none occur there aren't any that will effect a species sufficiently to create another species. lol

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:52 pm

There have been numerous errors and blunders in science and medicine, just follow the lawsuits for one.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:56 pm

Warren Moon wrote:There have been numerous errors and blunders in science and medicine, just follow the lawsuits for one.

very true.. :D 

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:01 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Tess. wrote:

Just so.  Check this out:

Rats could one day be bigger than COWS: Super-size rodents will evolve as larger mammals become extinct, claims scientist

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2551024/Rats-one-day-bigger-COWS-Super-size-rodents-evolve-larger-mammals-extinct-claims-scientist.html

Sod running into one of those!

Yikes, and fucking ewwww! This is why it is a good thing evolution takes millions of years to become noticeable then  Cool 


MORE fodder for the 12g  cheers 

(yes HF, that's a gradual process over millions of years, but down the X-men comics and read some proper science eh)

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:02 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

what you mean is because i do not accept it, you think i do not understand it...lol

No, because you've demonstrated that you don't understand any of the principles it's based upon. For example, your total cock-up on the point at which genetic mutations occurs.

none occur there aren't any that will effect a species sufficiently to create another species. lol

There will over time, and in response to a changing environment. But I've learned my lesson -- you have a lot to lose in this argument because you may as well be defending your faith. I, on the other hand, would happily accept evidence that disproves evolutionary theory, because it's not my faith.

Good day to you, sir.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:03 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

what!!! a mutation would have to occur during its life, the mutation would then have to be passed to it's offspring..

Wrong. Mutations occur primarily during the process of reproduction. You don't know the first thing about this.

he doesnt know anything about reproduction...he never has the chance... lol! 

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:07 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

none occur there aren't any that will effect a species sufficiently to create another species. lol

There will over time, and in response to a changing environment. But I've learned my lesson -- you have a lot to lose in this argument because you may as well be defending your faith. I, on the other hand, would happily accept evidence that disproves evolutionary theory, because it's not my faith.

Good day to you, sir.

lol...it is your faith as you accept it on faith as you have no proof of your own, evolution is as much a religion as any other..

but as you said earlier science is not infallible so you have chosen a faith you know could be wrong, now that speaks volumes about you.. :D 

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:08 pm

Well, he's good at polishing the Polish polisher (Sorry Ben, in joke lol)

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:10 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

none occur there aren't any that will effect a species sufficiently to create another species. lol

There will over time, and in response to a changing environment. But I've learned my lesson -- you have a lot to lose in this argument because you may as well be defending your faith. I, on the other hand, would happily accept evidence that disproves evolutionary theory, because it's not my faith.

Good day to you, sir.

lol...it is your faith as you accept it on faith as you have no proof of your own, evolution is as much a religion as any other..

but as you said earlier science is not infallible so you have chosen a faith you know could be wrong, now that speaks volumes about you.. :D 

I said good day!!  :D 

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:11 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

lol...it is your faith as you accept it on faith as you have no proof of your own, evolution is as much a religion as any other..

but as you said earlier science is not infallible so you have chosen a faith you know could be wrong, now that speaks volumes about you.. :D 

I said good day!!  :D 

and !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D 

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:12 pm

The really funny thing is, HF is using all the arguments against evolution used by a fundamentalist islamic on another forum. Two peas from the same pod.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:14 pm

Sassy wrote:The really funny thing is, HF is using all the arguments against evolution used by a fundamentalist islamic on another forum.   Two peas from the same pod.

They're just prats.

I mean PRATTs :D

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pratts#Evolution

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:16 pm

Oh I like that, great link  :D 

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:16 pm

Sassy wrote:The really funny thing is, HF is using all the arguments against evolution used by a fundamentalist islamic on another forum.   Two peas from the same pod.

two totally separate Gods but at least even the muslims know evolution is rubbish..

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:17 pm

Two separate Gods! You couldn't get more stupid than that statement.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:18 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Sassy wrote:The really funny thing is, HF is using all the arguments against evolution used by a fundamentalist islamic on another forum.   Two peas from the same pod.

They're just prats.

I mean PRATTs :D

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pratts#Evolution

I do hope you are not breaking your own rules by calling posters and not addressing the topic...i knew it would be a rule for EVERYONE..lol

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:18 pm

Sassy wrote:Two separate Gods!   You couldn't get more stupid than that statement.

of course they are, i thought even you would know that..though............. :D 

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:19 pm

anyway does anyone please have any sort of list of possible mutations that would change one species in to another...

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:22 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Sassy wrote:The really funny thing is, HF is using all the arguments against evolution used by a fundamentalist islamic on another forum.   Two peas from the same pod.

They're just prats.

I mean PRATTs :D

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pratts#Evolution

I do hope you are not breaking your own rules by calling posters and not addressing the topic...i knew it would be a rule for EVERYONE..lol

Wow, that's what I call desperate!


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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:23 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

I do hope you are not breaking your own rules by calling posters and not addressing the topic...i knew it would be a rule for EVERYONE..lol

Wow, that's what I call desperate!


desperate...no, it did show your sincerity though...

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:25 pm

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

and TWO OF THEM!

 lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! 

 ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: 

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Post by Lurker on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:27 pm

Damn. I guess we have the gamut of controversy in this forum, now. I was wondering when religion would get in the mix.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:29 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

I do hope you are not breaking your own rules by calling posters and not addressing the topic...i knew it would be a rule for EVERYONE..lol

Wow, that's what I call desperate!


desperate...no, it did show your sincerity though...

You spend half the day trying to refute the sound science I've been sharing with you by posting long-debunked myths and you question MY sincerity?

How dare you, sir! How DARE you!!!

 ::slap:: 

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:31 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

desperate...no, it did show your sincerity though...

You spend half the day trying to refute the sound science I've been sharing with you by posting long-debunked myths and you question MY sincerity?

How dare you, sir! How DARE you!!!

 ::slap:: 

lol..I very dare..A man who sets rules should set the example by keeping them, it's that simple..

i posted no long debunked myths everything i said still stands and you still have your religion.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:36 pm

It's really sad when someone doesn't realise how unintelligent they sound and carry on spouting myths, and think they are talking sense.

How's the work in The House going?

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:37 pm

Sassy wrote:It's really sad when someone doesn't realise how unintelligent they sound and carry on spouting myths, and think they are talking sense.

How's the work in The House going?

I agree so stop doing it... :D 

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