The end of Europe?

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The end of Europe?

Post by Didge on Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:30 am

Yale University Press recently published The End of Europe: Dictators, Demagogues, and the Coming Dark Age by James Kirchick, a 34-year-old American journalist.

It is a remarkably ambitious, provocative and vividly written account of the dark sides of Europe. It contradicts in 252 pages all the optimistic speeches of European political leaders. It should be must reading for all those interested in European politics.

Since the dissolution of Yugoslavia, Europe is no longer a continent of peace, and the time of stability, prosperity, cooperation, democracy and social harmony seems to be ending. The author describes a “sequence of violently transformative events ranging from Russia’s invasion of Ukraine to spectacular Islamist terrorist attacks, along with deeper phenomena such as Britain’s exit from the EU and the rise of ‘illiberal democracy’ in places like Hungary and Poland.”

Kirchick shows how nationalist, anti-American, often racist and anti-Semitic forces evoke Europe’s foulest traditions.

The problems described in this book have in common a loss of faith in the universal, humanistic values. “External challenges that could have had an integrative effect – like migration and Russian aggression – are instead having a disintegrative one.”

Questions Europeans have to ask themselves include: “How seriously are they committed to Europe? What are they willing to sacrifice in order to preserve the greatest experiment in political cooperation in human history?”

Kirchick is critical of the foreign policy of Barack Obama, who declared himself “America’s first Pacific president.” The author’s arguments “stem from a conviction that the values and interests uniting Americans and Europeans are far more numerous, and of greater import, than anything which divides us.”

James Kirchick presents the result of seven years traveling Europe in a finely written, fascinating account of current affairs in Europe.


http://hurryupharry.org/2017/10/12/the-end-of-europe/
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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by Vintage on Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:59 pm

May have something to do with people being pushed into a situation or situations they are not ready for, we need voluntary cooperation where the vision grows to fruition not some enforced, intransigient regime, Yugoslavia being a prime example. Europe grew into separate states over thousands of years, with all sorts of differences along with the many similarities, you can't just expect to weld it all together into one homogenous entity in a moment of time, the US worked for the most part, because the majority of the states emerged along the same lines and ideas and even language, although there is some agitation for Texan and Californian Independence apparently.

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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by Didge on Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:46 pm

Vintage wrote:May have something to do with people being pushed into a situation or situations they are not ready for, we need voluntary cooperation where the vision grows to fruition not some enforced, intransigient regime, Yugoslavia being a prime example. Europe grew into separate states over thousands of years, with all sorts of differences along with the many similarities, you can't just expect to weld it all together into one homogenous entity in a moment of time, the US worked for the most part, because the majority of the states emerged along the same lines and ideas and even language, although there is some agitation for Texan and Californian Independence apparently.

What do you mean by forced?

The world needs to unite and by seperation, just continues the same problems that have plagued humanity for thousands of years. Its inability to share. The problem is with how people are dogmatic over their beliefs. You just emphasized this very problem.

Now people seem to strangely neglect that it was only within the last hundred years how the west has come on leaps and bound with progression. Providing many civil and equal rights. They came about, not because we tried to push a problem away or build a barrier. That instead people rationlized what was wrong and it was their reasoning that brought about change. A change for the better.

The world needs to unite, because some day in the near future, we will need each other more than we do now.

So nobody is expecting people to weld together overnight. What is needed is people to stop being so utterly selfish and start understanding, how we actually all need each other to prosper.

When will people learn to understand that all people should have rights?

To continue to segregate people based off invented concepts, will never help humanity evolve.
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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:15 am

Vintage wrote:May have something to do with people being pushed into a situation or situations they are not ready for, we need voluntary cooperation where the vision grows to fruition not some enforced, intransigient regime, Yugoslavia being a prime example. Europe grew into separate states over thousands of years, with all sorts of differences along with the many similarities, you can't just expect to weld it all together into one homogenous entity in a moment of time, the US worked for the most part, because the majority of the states emerged along the same lines and ideas and even language, although there is some agitation for Texan and Californian Independence apparently.

Good point.
though it does mean that Europe needs to undergo the same process as the new word, with external powers coming in and destroying all the native societies.
Cool Cool Cool Cool

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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by Vintage on Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:53 am

That 's just the point, haven't we supposed to have learnt from past mistakes of disenfanchising peoples just because they don't fit in with our way of life? Forcing people to change their way of life whether they liked it or not? It seems it takes time for humans to change and mind their own business, the empires have for the most part died out only to be replaced by spheres of influence and business blackmail by the powerful countries and despotism in countries where international influence is less.
We are all stuck together on this rock, at least for a good while, so we need to find a way to co exist and find a way to share resources fairly, without exploiting the weaker peoples, and ruining the planet for ourselves and other species, I don't know how though but we have to do it while allowing people to keep their cultural identities, at least the benign bits and not as in the past, expect everyone to become the same as the invaders/colonists. How do you feel about the Kurds, Tibetians, Catalans and all the others enveloped in larger nations.

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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:01 am

The Empires never really died out, they died out in name and methodology to be replaced by the new 'economic empires'.
The USA is the first major one but others like China are following their lead. Europe attempted it with the EU.

Part of the problem is the idea of invaders/colonists people should have the right to migrate. the problem with Europe is that Europeans exercised that right with force and now have a problem with others migrating to them in peace.

the new world nations are better (but not perfect by any means) examples of how it should be, if you are born in Australia, Canada etc then you are Australians or Canadian. There is very basic ideals(laws) that you are supposed to comply with but beyond that you are free to follow whatever broader aspect of culture you want.

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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by nicko on Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:44 am

"migrating in peace" don't you ever read the papers or watch TV? your head is so firmly up your arse you can lick the back of your teeth !
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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:14 am

yeah they are migrating in peace, the 'natives' are as much to blame for the animosity. because people like you expect them to be cultural the same as you, you're not happy with the fact the vast majority are law abiding citizens. you're stuck on them having a different accent, religion, traditions or opinion of history.

Are they coming over ignoring all the existing systems committing genocide against the natives? removing your rights and declaring you animals? putting a bounty on your scalps like you are vermin? no, they are not they are coming over in peace looking for a better life. to even suggest the European is being forced to adapt to the same extent and with threat of death like the natives of the new world had to is just stupid.

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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:16 am

Nicko you need to stop letting the papers scare you with bogeymen and look at the actual facts

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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by nicko on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:31 am

I do look at the facts you idiot, Europe is being overrun by uneducated rape hungry, thieving Muslims, all the fault of a stupid bitch in Germany !
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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by Vintage on Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:38 pm

What you say Veya is how it should be, how it was in fact here. If someone moves countries for a better life they need to embrace the laws and customs of that country as far as possible, while keeping their core culture, religion etc, the people of the host country should be happy to have some of that culture filter into theirs. People in the port area of Cardiff came from every country you could name, all colours, all religions and none, all living side by side. Christians celebrated their festivals and everyone else lined the streets and looked on, the Muslims had a parade for the Prophet's birthday every year, where most marchers wore their national costume (not a burka or face veil amongst them) and everyone else lined the streets and looked on. (Cardiff had the first ever mosque in Britain, a converted house, the first purpose built mosque came later in England). Everyone was in the same boat financially and everyone helped anyone in need out. Now we have various different communities living in enclaves, with each having a community leader/leaders, sadly, they rarely mix like they used to. Unfortunately the Muslims who have come relatively lately are very conservative which doesn't help matters. A very hard line preacher from Saudi Arabia was invited by one mosque to come and preach, the mosque was full to the rafters and his talk was well taken with much applause, he had told them stuff about not to take Kuffars as friends, keep to themselves, women must not work outside the home and can be beaten for disobedience, all the things that will make it impossible for this community to intergrate. An Imam or two condemmed it but that was all. It's never going to work with communities living their own kind of life in separate areas. It worked before so it can work again if everyone wants that.

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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by nicko on Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:53 pm

VERY well said Vintage, but some wont agree, it's all our fault you see !
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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by veya_victaous on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:44 am

@vintage

what do you expect when they can read cowardly bullshit opinions of the like of nicko. And see that Brits Actually believe that nonsense and take the crimes of a few out on the majority.

Why don't they mix? maybe cause of the like of EDL tell them they are not welcome. And there isn't enough Brits telling them otherwise.

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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by nicko on Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:37 am

Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep yawn,

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Re: The end of Europe?

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:49 am

Vintage wrote: What you say Veya is how it should be, how it was in fact here. If someone moves countries for a better life they need to embrace the laws and customs of that country as far as possible, while keeping their core culture, religion etc, the people of the host country should be happy to have some of that culture filter into theirs. People in the port area of Cardiff came from every country you could name, all colours, all religions and none, all living side by side. Christians celebrated their festivals and everyone else lined the streets and looked on, the Muslims had a parade for the Prophet's birthday every year, where most marchers wore their national costume (not a burka or face veil amongst them) and everyone else lined the streets and looked on. (Cardiff had the first ever mosque in Britain, a converted house, the first purpose built mosque came later in England). Everyone was in the same boat financially and everyone helped anyone in need out.

^^^^^^^^      The first half of this quote shows how a proper 'multicultural' society can work,  mixing both integration and being good neighbours, with people still able to recognise and celebrate differences in ethnicity, culture and religion...

The second part shows what can happen when genuine multiculturalism is pushed out by increasing divisiveness, isolationism, and that current trend in so many developed countries towards "total individualism" --  with the increasing loss of community that entails  :

Vintage wrote: Now we have various different communities living in enclaves, with each having a community leader/leaders, sadly, they rarely mix like they used to.  Unfortunately the Muslims who have come relatively lately are very conservative which doesn't help matters. A very hard line preacher from Saudi Arabia was invited by one mosque to come and preach, the mosque was full to the rafters and his talk was well taken with much applause, he had told them stuff about not to take Kuffars as friends, keep to themselves, women must not work outside the home and can be beaten for disobedience, all the things that will make it impossible for this community to intergrate. An Imam or two condemmed it but that was all. It's never going to work with  communities living their own kind of life in separate areas. It worked before so it can work again if everyone wants that.

Idea        As Vintage suggests in that final sentence --  it can work again,  if  enough people want it..

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