Religion is it a choice ?

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Discuss

I think it is a choice
You can either choose to believe in a god/ Supream being or choose not to

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:49 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


yes happy to educate you again even though the evidence is there for all to see.

So are you now questioning his own words on his faith?

lol

Back later and will look forward to more of your stupidity, you can also explain why millions of Christians were willing participants in the genocides.


I love schooling you on history

Bye

Hitler's world view was diametrically opposed to Christianity, for which Hitler had nothing but contempt. Hitler never attended church in Vienna, and some sources note that his greatest enemy--besides Marxists--was the Jesuits. One anonymous eyewitness reported that "Hitler said [c. 1912] the biggest evil for the German people was accepting Christian humility." (p. 250) Even though in Mein Kampf Hitler criticized Schönerer's anti-Catholic Los-von-Rom (Free from Rome) movement, during his time in Vienna Hitler was sympathetic to it. Hitler recognized that Schönerer's position had been a public relations fiasco, and thus a political blunder, so later he always shied away from publicly criticizing the Christian churches, despite his personal antipathy toward them.



 Religion is it a choice ? - Page 6 Hitler10Hitler leaves the Marine Church in Wilhelmshaven.
 Religion is it a choice ? - Page 6 Hitler11Hitler signing his autograph for a Christian fan

 Religion is it a choice ? - Page 6 Concor10The Concordat between the Vatican and the Nazis

Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII) signs the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican at a formal ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933. Nazi Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen sits at the left, Pacelli in the middle, and the Rudolf Buttmann sits at the right.

The Concordat effectively legitimized Hitler and the Nazi government to the eyes of Catholicism, Christianity, and the world.

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:05 pm

Blimey smelly has gone quite, thanks Korben for saving me time!

 :D 

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:13 pm

Wow smelly so because Hitler didn't go to church and the possible words of an anonymous person we should just ignore everything Hitler said and did regarding his Catholicism and his alliance with the Vatican itself???

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:17 pm

Eilzel wrote:Wow smelly so because Hitler didn't go to church and the possible words of an anonymous person we should just ignore everything Hitler said and did regarding his Catholicism and his alliance with the Vatican itself???


Correct me if I am wrong Eizel but are we not constantly told by some all you have to do is believe?


I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.

Adolf Hitler in 1941 to General Gerhart Engel. In John Toland (1992). Adolf Hitler. New York: Anchor Publishing,

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:20 pm

How about these ones:


We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.


The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."

I believe in God, and I am convinced that He will not desert 67 million Germans who have worked so hard to regain their rightful position in the world.

We are the first to exhume these teachings! Through us alone, and not until now, do these teachings celebrate their resurrection! Mary and Magdelene stood at the empty tomb. For they were seeking the dead man! But we intend to raise the treasures of the living Christ!

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:39 pm

Exactly didge, Hitler was a Catholic and was willing to flaunt it for his Nationalist cause- people may not like it but there it is.

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:30 pm

Eilzel wrote:Wow smelly so because Hitler didn't go to church and the possible words of an anonymous person we should just ignore everything Hitler said and did regarding his Catholicism and his alliance with the Vatican itself???

that was part of a post made by didge on ADO

apparently the retard has forgotten his own work

and no i don't for one second suggest we disregard his Catholicism, unlike yourself im realistic


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Post by Eilzel on Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:05 pm

That was certainly the impression you gave but good for you, many do like to play the 'he wasn't really Catholic' card. I have no idea about didges post on ADO, though you say that is only part of it?

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:12 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Wow smelly so because Hitler didn't go to church and the possible words of an anonymous person we should just ignore everything Hitler said and did regarding his Catholicism and his alliance with the Vatican itself???

that was part of a post made by didge on ADO

apparently the retard has forgotten his own work

and no i don't for one second suggest we disregard his Catholicism, unlike yourself im realistic



More like as per usual smelly knows the game is up and is talking out of his arse where once he constantly claimed Hitler was not a Christian, oh my, how the smelly lies and lies and lies, and of course he will next come out with how Mein kampf and Nazism was influenced by Islam, by plagiarizing an idiotic argument already debunked

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:10 pm

Eilzel wrote:That was certainly the impression you gave but good for you, many do like to play the 'he wasn't really Catholic' card. I have no idea about didges post on ADO, though you say that is only part of it?

as i said im realistic

denying he was catholic is illogical however to state that his Catholicism motivated him to carry out the holocaust is equally illogical, but that doesn't stop your little gang from doing it anyway

yes it was only a part, the rest of the post simply talks about other influences and aspects of Hitlers life

the point im making is that didge has posted two things that contradict each other, so take what he says what a spade full of salt

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:13 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Eilzel wrote:That was certainly the impression you gave but good for you, many do like to play the 'he wasn't really Catholic' card. I have no idea about didges post on ADO, though you say that is only part of it?

as i said im realistic

denying he was catholic is illogical however to state that his Catholicism motivated him to carry out the holocaust is equally illogical, but that doesn't stop your little gang from doing it anyway

yes it was only a part, the rest of the post simply talks about other influences and aspects of Hitlers life

the point im making is that didge has posted two things that contradict each other, so take what he says what a spade full of salt  

I don't think his Catholicism motivated him to carry out the Holocaust; what is very likely however is that centuries of Christian Antisemitism made it possible for a whole nation to go along with such a slaughter.
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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:13 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

that was part of a post made by didge on ADO

apparently the retard has forgotten his own work

and no i don't for one second suggest we disregard his Catholicism, unlike yourself im realistic



More like as per usual smelly knows the game is up and is talking out of his arse where once he constantly claimed Hitler was not a Christian, oh my, how the smelly lies and lies and lies, and of course he will next come out with how Mein kampf and Nazism was influenced by Islam, by plagiarizing an idiotic argument already debunked

if its "lies" then how do you know exactly which thread it came from??








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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:16 pm

Eilzel wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

as i said im realistic

denying he was catholic is illogical however to state that his Catholicism motivated him to carry out the holocaust is equally illogical, but that doesn't stop your little gang from doing it anyway

yes it was only a part, the rest of the post simply talks about other influences and aspects of Hitlers life

the point im making is that didge has posted two things that contradict each other, so take what he says what a spade full of salt  

I don't think his Catholicism motivated him to carry out the Holocaust; what is very likely however is that centuries of Christian Antisemitism made it possible for a whole nation to go along with such a slaughter.

incorrect

the whole nation did not go along with the slaughter since the whole nation did not know what was going on

nor was the holocaust perpetrated under a religious banner


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Post by Eilzel on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:23 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

I don't think his Catholicism motivated him to carry out the Holocaust; what is very likely however is that centuries of Christian Antisemitism made it possible for a whole nation to go along with such a slaughter.

incorrect

the whole nation did not go along with the slaughter since the whole nation did not know what was going on  

nor was the holocaust perpetrated under a religious banner


Not incorrect.

They certainly went along with the persecution, the ghettos and the sending of Jews to concentration camps- and certainly many would have had an idea what was going on with so many being sent off never to return.

Just because it wasn't under a religious banner doesn't mean centuries of discrimination and persecution of the 'Christ killing' Jews didn't contribute to the landscape which made the Holocaust possible.

Don't be naive.
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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:07 am

Eilzel wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

incorrect

the whole nation did not go along with the slaughter since the whole nation did not know what was going on  

nor was the holocaust perpetrated under a religious banner


Not incorrect.

They certainly went along with the persecution, the ghettos and the sending of Jews to concentration camps- and certainly many would have had an idea what was going on with so many being sent off never to return.

Just because it wasn't under a religious banner doesn't mean centuries of discrimination and persecution of the 'Christ killing' Jews didn't contribute to the landscape which made the Holocaust possible.

Don't be naive.

Do you go along with every one of our governments policies??

Do you even know what happens behind closed doors in the highest levels of government??

Probably not

But By your logic , simply knowing about the policies means you support those policies.

You know that the uk was involved in rendition, your logic means you support rendition 

Do you?? 

When we combine this with a murderous regime that would kill anyone who didn't "go along with it" then your arguments move even further away from reality

The religious approach played little to no part in the propaganda used on the German population by the nazis to generate hatred towards the Jews

You're creating a scenario that never happened - hitler didn't stand up and rally the Germans to support his holocaust by calling on all good Christian Germans to kill the Christ killers

That simply didn't happen and your effort to suggest that is what happened are disingenuous to say the least

the German population may have broadly supported the ghettoisation of the Jews, this came before the final solution, you do the Germans a disservice if you saying that as a nation they would have willingly supported the genocide of millions

By the time that eventually happened there was little anyone could do to stop them, the allied forces could even stop them what could the civilian German population do?

Don't be naive

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:48 am

Why would the German population generally support the ghettoisation of Jews? A history of anti-Semitic Christian culture? Or is that just coincidental? And yes the final solution came afterward but it could never have happened without a preceding period of persecution and villainization. I do not say all Germans, but certainly a lot perhaps a majority at the time supported that persecution. Why? Were they dummies to Nazi propaganda? Or was there are culture of suspicion and dislike of Jews to take advantage of? Where did that dislike stem from?

Ignore these factors if you prefer to. And I do no disservice to Germans of today, I'm simply pointing out how many people felt in pre-war Germany, not just Germany at that.

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:39 pm

Eilzel wrote:Why would the German population generally support the ghettoisation of Jews? A history of anti-Semitic Christian culture? Or is that just coincidental? And yes the final solution came afterward but it could never have happened without a preceding period of persecution and villainization. I do not say all Germans, but certainly a lot perhaps a majority at the time supported that persecution. Why? Were they dummies to Nazi propaganda? Or was there are culture of suspicion and dislike of Jews to take advantage of? Where did that dislike stem from?

Ignore these factors if you prefer to. And I do no disservice to Germans of today, I'm simply pointing out how many people felt in pre-war Germany, not just Germany at that.

They were angry and in a wrecked economy, hitler used the hated to get everyone on the same page, the jews were normally quite well off, owned businesses, everything hitler wanted, money, targets to blame and somewhere to direct all the anger...in the meantime give himself power..

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:49 pm

heavenly father wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Why would the German population generally support the ghettoisation of Jews? A history of anti-Semitic Christian culture? Or is that just coincidental? And yes the final solution came afterward but it could never have happened without a preceding period of persecution and villainization. I do not say all Germans, but certainly a lot perhaps a majority at the time supported that persecution. Why? Were they dummies to Nazi propaganda? Or was there are culture of suspicion and dislike of Jews to take advantage of? Where did that dislike stem from?

Ignore these factors if you prefer to. And I do no disservice to Germans of today, I'm simply pointing out how many people felt in pre-war Germany, not just Germany at that.

They were angry and in a wrecked economy, hitler used the hated to get everyone on the same page, the jews were normally quite well off, owned businesses, everything hitler wanted, money, targets to blame and somewhere to direct all the anger...in the meantime give himself power..

Yes - that's pretty much it.
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Post by Eilzel on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:49 pm

And centuries of scriptural based prejudice had no part to play whatsoever...? Get real.

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:54 pm

Eilzel wrote:And centuries of scriptural based prejudice had no part to play whatsoever...? Get real.

why would it ..

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:33 pm

Eilzel wrote:Why would the German population generally support the ghettoisation of Jews? A history of anti-Semitic Christian culture? Or is that just coincidental? And yes the final solution came afterward but it could never have happened without a preceding period of persecution and villainization. I do not say all Germans, but certainly a lot perhaps a majority at the time supported that persecution. Why? Were they dummies to Nazi propaganda? Or was there are culture of suspicion and dislike of Jews to take advantage of? Where did that dislike stem from?

Ignore these factors if you prefer to. And I do no disservice to Germans of today, I'm simply pointing out how many people felt in pre-war Germany, not just Germany at that.

im not ignoring anything, you're placing a higher level of importance on things that were not that important or influential

christian culture is not anti Semitic

Europe has a christian foundation and thus a christian culture, you find that the only areas where Jews are persecuted are majority Muslim, in one of the Scandinavian country's (i forget which one) there is a city that is close to 100% Muslim and Jews who lived there since settling there after WWII said that they hadn't faced such persecution since the Nazis and this was about 2-3 years ago

the Germans were taken in by a very powerful and efficient propaganda machine run by the Nazis who blamed the country's economic (and all other) woes on the jews, so they were placed into ghettos, before Hitler Jews lived in relative peace in Germany

the ghettos idea is no different from apartheid, and yet even those who supported and approved of apartheid would never approved of the genocide of millions

you say the final solution could never have happened without a preceding period of persecution and villainization?? that is rubbish since by the time the holocaust happened the regime was all powerful and not reliant on public support to do as they chose

hitler wasn't carrying out "the will of the people" when he initiated the final solution, he was acting upon his ow personal feelings



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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:35 pm

Eilzel wrote:And centuries of scriptural based prejudice had no part to play whatsoever...? Get real.

you keep saying that and yet religious inspiration played little to no part in the propaganda used by the nazis

you keep trying to add your own spin on things

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:35 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Why would the German population generally support the ghettoisation of Jews? A history of anti-Semitic Christian culture? Or is that just coincidental? And yes the final solution came afterward but it could never have happened without a preceding period of persecution and villainization. I do not say all Germans, but certainly a lot perhaps a majority at the time supported that persecution. Why? Were they dummies to Nazi propaganda? Or was there are culture of suspicion and dislike of Jews to take advantage of? Where did that dislike stem from?

Ignore these factors if you prefer to. And I do no disservice to Germans of today, I'm simply pointing out how many people felt in pre-war Germany, not just Germany at that.

im not ignoring anything, you're placing a higher level of importance on things that were not that important or influential  

christian culture is not anti Semitic  

Europe has a christian foundation and thus a christian culture, you find that the only areas where Jews are persecuted are majority Muslim, in one of the Scandinavian country's (i forget which one) there is a city that is close to 100% Muslim and Jews who lived there since settling there after WWII  said that they hadn't faced such persecution since the Nazis and this was about 2-3 years ago  

the Germans were taken in by a very powerful and efficient propaganda machine run by the Nazis who blamed the country's economic (and all other) woes on the jews, so they were placed into ghettos, before Hitler Jews lived in relative peace in Germany    

the ghettos idea is no different from apartheid, and yet even those who supported and approved of apartheid would never approved of the genocide of millions

you say the final solution could never have happened without a preceding period of persecution and villainization?? that is rubbish since by the time the holocaust happened the regime was all powerful and not reliant on public support to do as they chose

hitler wasn't carrying out "the will of the people" when he initiated the final solution, he was acting upon his ow personal feelings  



I haven't claimed religion played a part in the propaganda; I am saying that centuries of religious based attitudes toward Jews made them an easy scape goat for the Nazis. You only have to hear some of Mel Gibson's anti Jewish rants to see the minimum of what that can lead to.

Of course as you rightly say, NOW, the discrimination comes from Muslims; a religion centuries younger than Christianity but with the same book based bad attitude toward Jews.

I am not saying anti-Jewish Christian culture was the main factor; but certainly a big factor in the historic reasons the Holocaust was ever able to happen.
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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:18 pm

Eilzel wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

im not ignoring anything, you're placing a higher level of importance on things that were not that important or influential  

christian culture is not anti Semitic  

Europe has a christian foundation and thus a christian culture, you find that the only areas where Jews are persecuted are majority Muslim, in one of the Scandinavian country's (i forget which one) there is a city that is close to 100% Muslim and Jews who lived there since settling there after WWII  said that they hadn't faced such persecution since the Nazis and this was about 2-3 years ago  

the Germans were taken in by a very powerful and efficient propaganda machine run by the Nazis who blamed the country's economic (and all other) woes on the jews, so they were placed into ghettos, before Hitler Jews lived in relative peace in Germany    

the ghettos idea is no different from apartheid, and yet even those who supported and approved of apartheid would never approved of the genocide of millions

you say the final solution could never have happened without a preceding period of persecution and villainization?? that is rubbish since by the time the holocaust happened the regime was all powerful and not reliant on public support to do as they chose

hitler wasn't carrying out "the will of the people" when he initiated the final solution, he was acting upon his ow personal feelings  



I haven't claimed religion played a part in the propaganda; I am saying that centuries of religious based attitudes toward Jews made them an easy scape goat for the Nazis. You only have to hear some of Mel Gibson's anti Jewish rants to see the minimum of what that can lead to.

Of course as you rightly say, NOW, the discrimination comes from Muslims; a religion centuries younger than Christianity but with the same book based bad attitude toward Jews.

I am not saying anti-Jewish Christian culture was the main factor; but certainly a big factor in the historic reasons the Holocaust was ever able to happen.

you appear to be suggesting that if there was less antisemitism amongst the German general population then the holocaust would not have taken place

that doesn't ring true

you keep brushing over the facts that

A - the Germans christian heritage and the anger they should be feeling towards the "Christ killers" wasn't part of the propaganda

B - the Germans didn't know that the ghetto plan would lead to the final solution

there wasn't an increase in public outrage towards the Jews that led Hitler to the final solution

the Jews were singled out because of their wealth and success in a time of austerity and deprivation

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