Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

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Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:18 pm

Americans are more united than ever on issues of race and free speech.

So why the hell are we so divided?

In the aftermath of the Charlottesville, Va., white supremacist terror attack on anti-white supremacist protesters, the vast majority of Americans agreed on the following propositions: white supremacism is evil; neo-Nazism is evil; violence against peaceful protesters is evil, whether from left to right or vice versa.

Yet here we are, two weeks after the event, and the heat has not cooled.

That’s not thanks to serious disagreements among Americans. It’s thanks to political opportunism on all sides.

It’s easy to blame Fake President Trump for that reaction; his response to the Charlottesville attack was indeed deeply disturbing. It was disturbing for the president to initially blame “both sides” for the event, as though those counterprotesting white supremacism were moral equals of those protesting in its favor. It was more disturbing for the president to say there were “very fine people” at the neo-Nazi tiki torch march, and to add that he had no idea what the “alt-right” was.

Trump’s bizarre, horrifying response to the Charlottesville attacks would have justified criticism of him. I’ve been personally pointing out the president’s stubborn and unjustifiable unwillingness to condemn the alt-right for well over a year (I was the alt-right’s top journalistic target in 2016 on Twitter, according to the Anti-Defamation League). Such critiques would have been useful and welcome.

Instead, the mainstream left has politicized the situation through two particular strategies: first, labeling conservatives more broadly as neo-Nazi sympathizers; second, justifying violence from communist/anarchist antifa members.

The first strategy is old hat by now on the left. On college campuses, conservatives are regularly labeled beneficiaries of “white privilege” who merely seek to uphold their supremacy; anodyne political candidates like Mitt Romney and Rick Perry have been hit with charges of racism from the left. Democrats routinely dog Republicans with the myth of the “Southern switch” — the notion that the Republicans and Democrats changed positions on civil rights after the Civil Rights Act of 1964, leading to Republicans winning the South. (For the record, that theory is eminently untrue, and has been repeatedly debunked by election analysts ranging from Sean Trende of RealClearPolitics to Byron Shafer of the University of Wisconsin and Richard Johnston of theUniversity of Pennsylvania.)

But that false conflation found a new outlet for the left in support for antifa (anti-fascism). Antifa is a violent group that has attacked protesters in Sacramento, Berkeley, Dallas, Boston and Charlottesville; it’s dedicated to the proposition that those it labels fascists must be fought physically. It’s not anti-fascist so much as anti-right-wing — it shut down a parade in Portland last year because Republican Party members were scheduled to march in that parade. Antifa’s violence in Boston two weeks after Charlottesville wasn’t directed at Nazis or Nazi sympathizers, but at police officers and normal free-speech advocates.

Yet many on the left have justified their behavior as a necessary counter to the white supremacists and alt-righters. Rep. Steve Cohen (D-Tenn.) justified the violence by appealing to the evils of the neo-Nazis. Professor N.D.B. Connolly of Johns Hopkins University wrote in the pages of The Washington Post that the time for nonviolence had ended — that it was time to “throw rocks.” Dartmouth University historian Mark Bray defended antifa by stating that the group makes an “ethically consistent, historically informed argument for fighting Nazis before it’s too late.”

This is appalling stuff unless the Nazis are actually getting violent. Words aren’t violence. A free society relies on that distinction to function properly — as Max Weber stated, the purpose of civilization is to hand over the role of protection of rights to a state that has a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. Breaking that pact destroys the social fabric.

Now, most liberals — as opposed to leftists — don’t support antifa. Even Sens. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) denounced antifa’s tactics in Berkeley, for example. But in response to some on the left’s defense of antifa and their attempt to broaden the Nazi label to include large swaths of conservatives, too many people on the right have fallen into the trap of defending bad behavior of its own. Instead of disassociating clearly and universally from President Trump’s comments, the right has glommed onto the grain of truth embedded in them —  that antifa is violent — in order to shrug at the whole.

The result of all of this: the unanimity that existed regarding racism and violence has been shattered. And all so that political figures can make hay by castigating large groups of people who hate Nazism and violence.

Let’s restore the unanimity. Nazism is bad and unjustifiable. Violence against those who are not acting violently is bad and unjustifiable. That’s not whataboutism. That’s truth.

If we can’t agree on those basic principles, we’re not going to be able to share a country.


http://jewishjournal.com/opinion/ben-shapiro/223554/antifa-nazism-opportunistic-politics-divide-us/

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Re: Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by Original Quill on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:26 pm

Shipiro wrote:But that false conflation found a new outlet for the left in support for antifa (anti-fascism). Antifa is a violent group that has attacked protesters in Sacramento, Berkeley, Dallas, Boston and Charlottesville; it’s dedicated to the proposition that those it labels fascists must be fought physically. It’s not anti-fascist so much as anti-right-wing — it shut down a parade in Portland last year because Republican Party members were scheduled to march in that parade. Antifa’s violence in Boston two weeks after Charlottesville wasn’t directed at Nazis or Nazi sympathizers, but at police officers and normal free-speech advocates.

Unfortunately, Antifa is necessary. You don't oppose actual, physical violence with harsh language and cute slogans.

The move to condemn Antifa is a part of the pablum being sold today to "unify" America. The problem with that movement is, the cops don't get into bed with the robbers.

America has truly disunited: the platform of the Right is the anathema of the Left...and vice-versa. You don't have common ground when the left wants to improve healthcare, and the right wants to destroy it. The left wants peace, the right wants war. The left wants to help the poor, the right wants to help the rich.

To return to the point: the KKK, Neo-Nazis and white supremacists are not there to speak out, but to cause violence. Antifa can do nothing if they are not willing to match the tactics of the Right.

What is lamentable is that our politicians don't realize this. Let's face it, this was all started by the Right, when the Left had the temerity to elect a black president. Now, if you give a Republican an inch, they don't give back...they take a mile. The Right literally begs for disunity, and that's what they will get.

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Re: Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Shipiro wrote:But that false conflation found a new outlet for the left in support for antifa (anti-fascism). Antifa is a violent group that has attacked protesters in Sacramento, Berkeley, Dallas, Boston and Charlottesville; it’s dedicated to the proposition that those it labels fascists must be fought physically. It’s not anti-fascist so much as anti-right-wing — it shut down a parade in Portland last year because Republican Party members were scheduled to march in that parade. Antifa’s violence in Boston two weeks after Charlottesville wasn’t directed at Nazis or Nazi sympathizers, but at police officers and normal free-speech advocates.

Unfortunately, Antifa is necessary.  You don't oppose actual, physical violence with harsh language and cute slogans.



So you are saying violence against free speech is necessary?

We have the Police to stop violence and it shows you understand nothing.

How did violence against Nazism pan out in the 1930's?

It achieved nothing and if anything because the German Governments failed to act, the violence escalated.

It was not any violence that brought Nazi Germany to power, as in 1928, they had few seats. It was the catalyst of the Wall Street Crash in 1929 and the economic disaster that hit Germany after. That allowed Hitler to win over people through fear, using blame against Jews and Communists

Using violence to shut down anything you dislike, just opens up the door to any group doing the same, to things they see as a danger. 

You thus advocate those who have already done so, just that you disagree on their views.

I mean is it okay for anti-abortionists to use violence Quill?

You see this is where your arguments falls down, as violence against those you disagree with has never worked. In reality in ends in war. Take how your own civil war escalated from violence.

Anti-hate groups are necessary, but antifa is a hate group. It may at least join us both in being both anti-fascist, but it is very much anti-free speech. Which is very much in conflict with our secular societies. Its totalitarian and in line with fascism itself

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Re: Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by Original Quill on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:41 pm

Thorin wrote:So you are saying violence against free speech is necessary?

It's out-of-bounds to deliberately twist what I said. I said that the KKK, Neo-Nazis and white supremacists are not out to demonstrate; they are out to cause violence. Now, you don't fight violence with harsh language.

Antifa is doing only what is necessary.

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Re: Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:48 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:So you are saying violence against free speech is necessary?

It's out-of-bounds to deliberately twist what I said.  I said that the KKK, Neo-Nazis and white supremacists are not out to demonstrate; they are out to cause violence.  Now, you don't fight violence with harsh language.

Antifa is doing only what is necessary.

So is Antifa using violence

So how are they doing what is necessary by attacking the Police in Boston?

How are they doing what is necessary, by hijacking a protest against an alt right speaker, by rioting in Berkeley?

Antifa, like the White supremacists, are extremists.

I condemn both, and yet you excuse the leftist one.

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Re: Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:59 pm

I am no fan of Chomsky and even he sees how wrong Antifa is


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Re: Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:03 am

Antifa isn't even the major group protesting against the neo-nazi and KKK.
it is mainly normal people, many of whom are black.

this whole "it's antifa versus the Neo Nazis" is not even true it is merely RW misdirection trying to justify and condone Nazism
Right now we have Nazi apologists trying to pretend they are being even handed.

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Re: Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:12 am

veya_victaous wrote:Antifa isn't  even the  major group protesting against the neo-nazi and KKK.
it is mainly normal people, many of whom are black.

this whole "it's antifa versus the Neo Nazis" is not even true it is merely RW misdirection trying to  justify and condone Nazism
Right now we have Nazi apologists trying to pretend they are being even handed.


Which shows how little you know and how in fact we have seen how this problem got out of hand before.

Learn some history

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t21840-the-communist-origins-of-the-antifa-extremist-group

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Re: Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:20 am



Stop spouting so much empty bullshit, Didge...

Any one of your numerous favourite neo-nazi-apologist or Zionist blather_sites only has to post a new piece of alt.right propaganda, and you faithfully post up those puerile puff-pieces without even considering their content..

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Re: Antifa, Nazism and the opportunistic politics that divide us

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:25 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Stop spouting so much empty bullshit, Didge...

Any one of your numerous favourite neo-nazi-apologist or Zionist blather_sites only has to post a new piece of alt.right propaganda, and you faithfully post up those puerile puff-pieces without even considering their content..


Ah so now its Zionism, which is odd. In other words blame the Jews. As lets face it most zionists are Jews and its at Jews you look to blame and castigate, just like the Nazi's. Even more when this topic has nothing to do with Zionism.

Seriously, is this all you have to offer, what a pathetic regressive who supports violent anti-capitalist groups

The only thing funny is how you continually embarrass yourself on here Wolf

Now unless you have anything to counter the points, I suggest you get back to worshiping Stalin, with your morning prayers

You and that cretin Quill, are no better than the Far Right, you are the Far left, two hateful extremes, that society needs to stand united agajnst

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