Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

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Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by HoratioTarr on Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:47 pm


A thousand tourists hold their breath as a giant killer whale leaps skyward, the sun gleaming off its smooth back.
As if auditioning for a Disney movie, the two-and-a-half ton leviathan performs an elegant backflip before landing with a thunderous splash.

It's a Thursday afternoon, but SeaWorld in San Diego, California, is packed with visitors, many of them British, all drawn by the undisputed star attractions: ten huge killer whales performing two shows daily.

It is once the sun-burnt crowds have drifted away that SeaWorld's killer whales, or orcas, are herded off to backstage pools where, with little room to dive, they swim listlessly in circles, often banging their heads against the concrete sides in boredom or frustration.

Or worse, as last week's death of disease-ravaged Kasatka made clear. 'Euthanised' after falling incurably sick in her artificial environment, she is the third SeaWorld killer whale to die this year alone.

And this, in the outspoken words of Kasatka's former trainer, is 'a disgrace to humanity'.

John Hargrove, a SeaWorld expert turned whistleblower, is in tears as he describes the orca's fate to The Mail on Sunday.
'What continues to go on in parks like SeaWorld is an abomination,' he says.

'They claim captive orcas help educate people, and for years I bought into it. But Kasatka lived in misery, in barbaric and horrific conditions, and died in agony. She lived out her days in a house of horrors – and I was complicit in selling the lie to the public.'

Hargrove has already played a central part in Blackfish, an award-winning documentary which gained near cult status after its release in 2013, and caused SeaWorld's shares and attendance figures to plummet.

Viewers were shaken by one horrific scene in which Kasatka is shown dragging trainer Ken Peters to the bottom of a tank in 2006, nearly drowning him. SeaWorld lambasted the film, calling it 'inaccurate and misleading'.
Yet it has helped drive a growing international movement to ban the captivity of whales and dolphins, and Hargrove, for one, is unshakeable in his convictions.

'In the wild, these magnificent creatures live to 80, 100 years old,' he continues. 'I have to speak out because if it stops just one person paying to go to a park where orcas are tortured to perform circus tricks, then Kasatka's death won't have been in vain.'
While capturing wild orcas has been banned by many Western countries, including the US, Russia and China continue to hunt and trap them. Globally, 50 million people visit marine parks with captive orcas. Thanks to films such as Blackfish, SeaWorld and other aquatic parks have been forced to change – although the message that 'cuddly' cetaceans are not pets is yet to reach the wider public, as shown by the needless death of a baby dolphin in Spain last week.

New legislation in California means mothers and calves can no longer be separated and captive breeding has ended.
SeaWorld, which also has parks in Orlando, Florida, and San Antonio, Texas, owns 21 orcas and attracts 10 million visitors each year, including thousands from the UK.
They pay up to £75 to watch the killer whales pirouette to music and 'beach' themselves on the concrete sides of the pool.
In January, an orca called Tilikum, notorious for killing his female trainer, died after a long battle with a lung infection.
Then last month, Kyara, a three-month-old orca that was born under the park's now-defunct breeding programme, died from pneumonia.
Now it has been announced that Kasatka, too, was put down last Tuesday. At 41, she was half the age she might have lived to in the ocean.
'In the wild, orcas rarely show aggression towards humans. But I lost count of the attacks I witnessed and suffered first-hand,' Hargrove says.

'I've been butted against the side of the pool, grabbed by my torso and dragged down. I'm amazed I'm still alive.'
Kasatka, too, had become violent in captivity, as the Blackfish film demonstrated.
'She was one of the most dangerous animals I met,' continues Hargrove, who suffered broken ribs, fingers, toes and facial fractures during his time as a trainer.

'These animals are trapped, frustrated, unhappy. Of course they take it out on humans they come into contact with. Being in a tank for years on end wrecks them mentally.'





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4805122/Former-SeaWorld-trainer-lifts-lid-three-whales-die.html
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by HoratioTarr on Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:48 pm

Abomination is right. Shame on America or any other country for allowing this to even exist.
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Syl on Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:55 pm

These whales, seals, dolphins, all marine creatures that are expected to perform for paying crowds should be free.
There are ways off introducing them back into the ocean whilst still protecting them.
I saw a dolphin show in Cyprus once...i reported it for cruelty, the poor dolphin who wouldnt perform looked as if it had gone mad....just banging its head from side to side, it was heartbreaking.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:58 pm

And yet we have a mass industry to enslave dogs and cats to comfort the insecurities of humans, as we have domesticated them. This is tragic, how captive animals are treated, but if anyone keeps pets and complains here. Have they really a leg to stand on?

As ask yourself, if people have pets, is it for the animals needs, or their own? Its no different to sea world, its for the owners needs. Now people may argue, that well cats and dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years?

Are you then going to use the same argument in a thousand more with the Orca?

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:00 am

Syl wrote:These whales, seals, dolphins, all marine creatures that are expected to perform for paying crowds should be free.
There are ways off introducing them back into the ocean whilst still protecting them.
I saw a dolphin show in Cyprus once...i reported it for cruelty, the poor dolphin who wouldnt perform looked as if it had gone mad....just banging its head from side to side, it was heartbreaking.

I would never, ever, pay to see a show like this. It's the public paying that sustains and perpetuates it. I just cannot believe in this day and age of so much PC shit that we allow animals to be treated so badly and exploited so vilely. A fucking disgrace.
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:01 am

Thorin wrote:And yet we have a mass industry to enslave dogs and cats to comfort the insecurities of humans, as we have domesticated them. This is tragic, how captive animals are treated, but if anyone keeps pets and complains here. Have they really a leg to stand on?

As ask yourself, if people have pets, is it for the animals needs, or their own? Its no different to sea world, its for the owners needs. Now people may argue, that well cats and dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years?

Are you then going to use the same argument in a thousand more with the Orca?

Oh fuck off with your stupid argumentative shit.
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:04 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Syl wrote:These whales, seals, dolphins, all marine creatures that are expected to perform for paying crowds should be free.
There are ways off introducing them back into the ocean whilst still protecting them.
I saw a dolphin show in Cyprus once...i reported it for cruelty, the poor dolphin who wouldnt perform looked as if it had gone mad....just banging its head from side to side, it was heartbreaking.

I would never, ever, pay to see a show like this.     It's the public paying that sustains and perpetuates it.   I just cannot believe in this day and age of so much PC shit that we allow animals to be treated so badly and exploited so vilely.  A fucking disgrace.


And yet we have domesticated and enslaved animals to both cater for our own needs. Whether that be for companionship, or mere food.

Seriously, what is the difference?

I eat meat and make no reservations that i do, but I never try to hold the moral high ground over animals, when we have made many lose their own freedoms, by taking this away and domesticating them.

IT is wrong to take away animals from their habitat, but humans have made an industry of this with the likes of Cats and dogs. Do you think either if they knew true freedom, born free, would choose to be with humans, like the Orca?

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:07 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:And yet we have a mass industry to enslave dogs and cats to comfort the insecurities of humans, as we have domesticated them. This is tragic, how captive animals are treated, but if anyone keeps pets and complains here. Have they really a leg to stand on?

As ask yourself, if people have pets, is it for the animals needs, or their own? Its no different to sea world, its for the owners needs. Now people may argue, that well cats and dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years?

Are you then going to use the same argument in a thousand more with the Orca?

Oh fuck off with your stupid argumentative shit.


Er No, there is nothing worse than hypocrisy, from supposed animal lovers.

They think they use products that have no bearing on animals and yet just about every single one does. They then claim to champion themselves as caring?

Really?

So no I will not fuck off you ignorant pathetic child

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:09 am

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Oh fuck off with your stupid argumentative shit.


Er No, there is nothing worse than hypocrisy, from supposed animal lovers.

They think they use products that have no bearing on animals and yet just about every single one does. They then claim to champion themselves as caring?

Really?

So no I will not fuck off you ignorant pathetic child

Yawn....
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by magica on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:11 am

This is appalling. I once went to Windsor where they had dolphins and whales. I stroked a whale who came up the side of a tank, looked into his eyes and saw how sad he was. I know it sounds silly but I felt his pain.

I'd taken my kids, they didn't like it, we left. I felt ashamed going there.

I hated it all and was so sad. I vowed this must not carry on, so signed petitions, anything to make it close down, it did and closed. I thought the ones in America closed too.

It's no fun for these beautiful creatures of the ocean, I hope one day they will stop doing this to them.
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:11 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Er No, there is nothing worse than hypocrisy, from supposed animal lovers.

They think they use products that have no bearing on animals and yet just about every single one does. They then claim to champion themselves as caring?

Really?

So no I will not fuck off you ignorant pathetic child

Yawn....


I suggest most animals do that in your company

Whether human or not

Laughing

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:13 am

magica wrote:This is appalling.  I once went to Windsor where they had dolphins and whales. I stroked a whale who came up the side of a tank, looked into his eyes and saw how sad he was. I know it sounds silly but I felt his pain.

I'd taken my kids, they didn't like it, we left. I felt ashamed going there.

I hated it all and was so sad. I vowed this must not carry on, so signed petitions, anything to make it close down,  it did and closed. I thought the ones in America closed too.

It's no fun for these beautiful creatures of the ocean, I hope one day they will stop doing this to them.


Have you signed petitions to stop all animals being pets?

How is it fun for an animal to be born into what is effectively slavery?

Most pets have no concept of freedom

They have been denied this

As humans control them, as we are takers.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by magica on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:19 am

No I've signed them for sea creatures.

It's not slavery to have a pet, that's nonsense. Pets are free not shackled to a wall.
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:24 am

magica wrote:No I've signed them for sea creatures.

It's not slavery to have a pet, that's nonsense. Pets are free not shackled to a wall.


Its is slavery to keep a pet. Do you think if you were born being a pet to people and knew no better, you would think you were not a slave, to their will? Of course not, because you would never know or understand what it is to be free.

If we domesticated the Orca, as we have many animals, would you argue the same here?

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by magica on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:29 am

Or as belong in the sea, wildlife in the jungles, birds to fly in the air..

Cats and dogs are domesticated, left alone many would die.

I'm off to sleep now, carry on tomorrow.

Night Thor and HT
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:32 am

magica wrote:Or as belong in the sea, wildlife in the jungles, birds to fly in the air..

Cats and dogs are domesticated, left alone many would die.

I'm off to sleep now, carry on tomorrow.

Night Thor and HT


So you would be fine then if I domesticated Lions, Tigers, Panthers, wolves etc? As they are cats and dogs.

Basically making their offspring have no conception of a life born free?

Night Magica

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:33 am

magica wrote:No I've signed them for sea creatures.

It's not slavery to have a pet, that's nonsense. Pets are free not shackled to a wall.

He just wants to argue and spoil the thread. Night, Magica.
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:36 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
magica wrote:No I've signed them for sea creatures.

It's not slavery to have a pet, that's nonsense. Pets are free not shackled to a wall.

He just wants to argue and spoil the thread.   Night, Magica.


Wrong again

I am showing how people come to accept forms of controls over animals and are appalled at others.

Animals domesticated have no conception of being free, as they are controlled, by humans

So would you object if we domesticated the Orca?

Why is it okay with Dogs, cats, snakes etc?

I mean how on earth do you think dogs and cats were domesticated?

Through captivity?

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Eilzel on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:20 am

Sorry didge, but your arguments fails here.

Domesticated cats and digs have plenty of freedom, especially cats, which usually have free run of the neighborhood. And while I'm no fan of dogs, the love they harbour for their owners is usually evident.

Crucially, they aren't forced to perform daily. Nor are their conditions so damagingly restrictive as Orca's are.

Those are big differences. Whoever met the average house pet that was visibly distressed with its life? (Unless abused). We do see that with orcas, so it isn't comparable.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:24 am

Eilzel wrote:Sorry didge, but your arguments fails here.

Domesticated cats and digs have plenty of freedom, especially cats, which usually have free run of the neighborhood. And while I'm no fan of dogs, the love they harbour for their owners is usually evident.

Crucially, they aren't forced to perform daily. Nor are their conditions so damagingly restrictive as Orca's are.

Those are big differences. Whoever met the average house pet that was visibly distressed with its life? (Unless abused). We do see that with orcas, so it isn't comparable.


Really because Eilzel has spoken?

So why are dogs often kept on leashes when out Eilzel?

Would they not have real freedom without their owners born into the wild?

Sorry you are talking shit mate

The domesticated cats and dogs have no conception of freedom, as they are born into captivity, where many could not fend for themselves

So there is no difference, you just accept the captivity of some animals, because its been normalized.

And dogs and cats are not tasked to perform daily?

Do you want to think that one through again?

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Eilzel on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:36 am

Cats do not perform. Dogs can be taught tricks, but not forced to do them as part of a strict regime like at Seaworld.

And again, I'll repeat, how many cats and dogs do you see looking miserable in captivity? How many die prematurely due to captivity? Now again compare that to orcas.

You ignore these substantial differences for argument's sake.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:42 am

Eilzel wrote:Cats do not perform. Dogs can be taught tricks, but not forced to do them as part of a strict regime like at Seaworld.

And again, I'll repeat, how many cats and dogs do you see looking miserable in captivity? How many die prematurely due to captivity? Now again compare that to orcas.

You ignore these substantial differences for argument's sake.


Really?

So cats have never performed in the circus then?

You then offer more babble about dogs.

Where they are taught by treat methods, commands, whether that be to stay, sit, fetch etc.

You call that being free or at the whim of its master?

Well many slaves born into captivity well fed and look after were not unhappy, because they had no concept of freedom Eilzel. The point you miss. People captured and enslaved did understand, and look to escape

The fact is because we have come to accept the domestication of some animals, we forget, we have done this for our needs and not theirs. They are now born thinking that they need us for food, because they know nothing else.

So there is no difference, you just invent one because thousands or years ago when Dogs had not been domesticated and placed today, you would be saying how wrong it would be to hold them captive in a zoo or water park

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by veya_victaous on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:06 am

Ok, so everyone is in agreement
Thorin is wrong and just being an argumentative shit head...
Spoiling the thread for anyone that want to have a sensible discussion


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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:03 am

veya_victaous wrote:Ok, so everyone is in agreement
Thorin is wrong and just being an argumentative shit head...
Spoiling the thread for anyone that want to have a sensible discussion


So now people cannot have different views then?

So when did a majority opinion make someone right?

So yet another debate, you have not debated on.


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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by nicko on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:08 am

My cat has freedom to go where he wants when he wants, if he's ill I take him to a Vet fot treatment. There are thousands of Cat's and Dogs left out to fend for them selves, many are diseased and starving and in pain.

Most, if they have caring owners live a good and contented life !
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Eilzel on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:12 am

Good point nicko.

And didge, the fact you have to use the circus to back your point exposes your argument. I agree that circus animals should not be kept in such circumstances or made to perform. But house cats aren't circus animals.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:19 am

Eilzel wrote:Good point nicko.

And didge, the fact you have to use the circus to back your point exposes your argument. I agree that circus animals should not be kept in such circumstances or made to perform. But house cats aren't circus animals.


Look Eilzel, you still fail to see the point.

I eat meat and am thus hypocritical when caring for animals, as I do care for them and yet happily eat them. With in reality sparing little thought for how they fare butchered for me to eat. I also think its wrong to hold animals in captivity. Now there is no going back with cats and dogs as they are now reliant on humans. Nicko's cat may have freedom to roam, but it will always come back to be fed and is thus is reliant on its owner. Granted some cats become good at hunting prey. The reality is and none of you ever think about this, is that neither cats and dogs have real freedom, because humans have normalized and created a pet industry out of them. To cater for the needs of humans. Hence the point, as you are also poorly doing, is that, as here. You make it acceptable where we have normalized once situation but not another. Where Mammals liker Orca's are kept in Zoo's. I back reservations, but the Orca should never be held in captivity. The reality is cats and dogs have no real concept of freedom. Of which wild ones would if captured.

I am not even saying I am against people having pets. Only that all people are generally hypocritical in regards to animals.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Eilzel on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:44 am

No one has said cats or dogs have 'real freedom' didge. Opposition to animals like orcas being kept in captivity is mostly based on the fact they die much younger, amd are often visibly distressed.

If orcas did not die younger, and appeared happy in captivity, opposition would not be as strong.

So aside from them both not being free in a human sense, the comparison remains pointless.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Eilzel on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:45 am

Which means it is not hypocritical to oppose one while accepting the other.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:50 am

Eilzel wrote:Which means it is not hypocritical to oppose one while accepting the other.


Utter rubbish.
If you truly cared for animals, you would never eat meat or keep any pets. As they are for your needs.
Again its because it has been normalized, that you think its is okay.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:53 am

Eilzel wrote:No one has said cats or dogs have 'real freedom' didge. Opposition to animals like orcas being kept in captivity is mostly based on the fact they die much younger, amd are often visibly distressed.

If orcas did not die younger, and appeared happy in captivity, opposition would not be as strong.

So aside from them both not being free in a human sense, the comparison remains pointless.


You still are not grasping the point are you Eilzel?

The comparison is not pointless, you just want it to be, so you can feel comfortable with the fact you can keep said animals as pets. Can you imagine if aliens existed and in centuries after subjugation by them, humans were bred and marketed as pets? In this case, word of mouth would be passed on in regards to what was formerly the freedom you once had.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:59 am

The case against pets:

A morally just world would have no pets, no aquaria, no zoos. No fields of sheep, no barns of cows. That’s true animal rights.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-keeping-a-pet-is-fundamentally-unethical


Have a read Eilzel.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by magica on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:52 pm

You eat animals so how can you have the moral high ground. Millions have cats and dogs to love, care and cry over when they lose them.

I don't get your argument on pets. So different sea animals, jungle animals ect, who should roam free in their natural habitats.
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:56 pm

magica wrote:You eat animals so how can you have the moral high ground.  Millions have cats and dogs to love, care and cry over when they lose them.

I don't get your argument on pets. So different sea animals, jungle animals ect, who should roam free in their natural habitats.


I am not trying to have the moral high ground and admit to being a hypocrite on this magica.

I am saying just about everyone else also is.

Millions only have cats and dogs, because they have been bred for a single purpose.

To cater for human needs. That they are born thinking that they actually need humans. Yet when born into the wild. They would no doubt face a harsher future, but one that would be of their own making and not yours.

Again I have no issue with people having pets. I am showing people morally have no argument to have them, if they believe in universal rights.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:29 pm

magica wrote:You eat animals so how can you have the moral high ground.  Millions have cats and dogs to love, care and cry over when they lose them.

I don't get your argument on pets. So different sea animals, jungle animals ect, who should roam free in their natural habitats.

Animals have evolved in much the way humans have, and domestic animals because we've lived alongside them as food/companions/work colleagues. Animals weren't domesticated overnight. Comparing a pet dog to a killer whale is beyond stupid. It's like saying modern man should behave like a neanderthal because that's his right to do so. We've evolved beyond living in caves just as domesticated cats and dogs have evolved to live by our side.
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:38 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
magica wrote:You eat animals so how can you have the moral high ground.  Millions have cats and dogs to love, care and cry over when they lose them.

I don't get your argument on pets. So different sea animals, jungle animals ect, who should roam free in their natural habitats.

 Animals have evolved in much the way humans have, and domestic animals because we've lived alongside them as food/companions/work colleagues.   Animals weren't domesticated overnight.   Comparing a pet dog to a killer whale is beyond stupid.   It's like saying modern man should behave like a neanderthal because that's his right to do so.   We've evolved beyond living in caves just as domesticated cats and dogs have evolved to live by our side.


Nobody is comparing them.
What is being compared is how humans come to see animals rights in such a warped fashion.
That they instead chose to decide what animals rights are based off a human need.
Also your views on Neanderthals is also quite ignorant, as clearly you have taken the bad press view. They cared very much for their people, even onto death.

Cats and Dogs, unlike humans have had controlled breeding, which is why their breeds are now so diverse. Its why humans are still only one biological race. As their breeding has not been controlled, but widespread.
You do again what is wrong. You think because something has been normalized, then you think it is okay.

A dog bred and cat bred into society, is done so for the needs of humans.
How is it truly done for their needs?
What you are claiming is that it is better for said species to be at the will of their masters.

Do you want to see how wolves, which dogs are from are reintroduced to nature and the effect it has?


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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by nicko on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:32 pm

My cat kills Mice almost every night and brings them home to lay on the Kitchen floor, because he thinks i'm hungry. No one tought him to do that, he does it because he wants to.
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Original Quill on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:47 pm

nicko wrote:My cat kills Mice almost every night and brings them home to lay on the Kitchen floor,   because he thinks i'm hungry.   No one tought him to do that,   he does it because he wants to.

My cat does the same. She thinks I'm one of her kittens. Laughing

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by nicko on Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:35 pm

I find the Shrews a bit tough, I much prefer the common or garden Mouse !
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:37 pm

thorin, when you understand the difference between imprinted wild and domesticated, you will see why your argument doesnt hold water

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by magica on Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:52 pm

[quote="nicko"]My cat kills Mice almost every night and brings them home to lay on the Kitchen floor,   because he thinks i'm hungry.   No one tought him to do that,   he does it because he wants to.[/quote



They do it as their gift to you Nick. They are very pleased with themselves Smile
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:01 pm

Lord Foul wrote:thorin, when you understand the difference between imprinted wild and domesticated, you will see why your argument doesnt hold water


That has to be the most piss poor reply you have done yet

Again I completely understand the difference between the two

Now you can take on my points or pretend to think you have a point.

I have made mine, I fail to see yours, accept a claim.


The point is about animal rights and how people have made their own form of human based rights for animals.

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:33 pm

so now you think you know the difference...hows about telling us??

It is wrong to keep captive orcas

a)they are highly intelligent ans so
b)they need their wild environment

dogs and cats are different

we humans domesticated dogs...cats domesticated themselves


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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:35 pm

Lord Foul wrote:so now you think you know the difference...hows about telling us??

It is wrong to keep captive orcas

a)they are highly intelligent ans so
b)they need their wild environment

dogs and cats are different

we humans domesticated dogs...cats domesticated themselves



How is it different?

We have an industry that breeds cats and dogs to cater for a human need.

That is no rights for them, but only for the humans itself

So what you are saying is unadulterated gibberish

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:47 pm

nicko wrote:I find the Shrews a bit tough,   I much prefer the common or garden Mouse !

With a squeeze of lemming?
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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Lord Foul on Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:17 am

Thorin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:so now you think you know the difference...hows about telling us??

It is wrong to keep captive orcas

a)they are highly intelligent ans so
b)they need their wild environment

dogs and cats are different

we humans domesticated dogs...cats domesticated themselves



How is it different?

We have an industry that breeds cats and dogs to cater for a human need.

That is no rights for them, but only for the humans itself

So what you are saying is unadulterated gibberish

thus demonstrating that you DONT know the difference between an imprinted wild animal and a domesticated animal...

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:23 am

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

I would never, ever, pay to see a show like this.     It's the public paying that sustains and perpetuates it.   I just cannot believe in this day and age of so much PC shit that we allow animals to be treated so badly and exploited so vilely.  A fucking disgrace.


And yet we have domesticated and enslaved animals to both cater for our own needs. Whether that be for companionship, or mere food.

Seriously, what is the difference?

I eat meat and make no reservations that i do, but I never try to hold the moral high ground over animals, when we have made many lose their own freedoms, by taking this away and domesticating them.

IT is wrong to take away animals from their habitat, but humans have made an industry of this with the likes of Cats and dogs. Do you think either if they knew true freedom, born free, would choose to be with humans, like the Orca?

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Bullshit,  Didge...

There is no genuine comparison..

While you can justifiably point to racing horses and dogs, dog and cock foghting, performing animals in circuses, or animals used to test trivial shit such as cosmetics, for comparison to whales, doplhins and seals when it comes to unjustifiable exploitation by man;  attempting to compare pets (and, by extension, 'companion' and working animals..) is simply ridiculous.

Indeed, thousands of years ago it was ancestors of many of todays pets, that saw some advantages to "hitching their wagon" to mankind's increasing expansion --  dogs that were willing to serve, cats that were ready to rule over the households, and birds flocking to the scraps...

Cattle, sheep, goats, camels and horses have long been exploited for work, food, hides, fertiliser..

However, comparing the cruel and unnatural, greed-fuelled use of intelligent sea life such as whales, dolphins, seals for the puerile and cruel entertainment of braindead humans, with either pets or livestock --  you're on a losing and irrational argument there, from the start..

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Re: Death by 50m camera clicks: As THREE SeaWorld killer whales die in a year, a former trainer says when the show is over, the gentle giant's lives are a 'disgrace to humanity'

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:46 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Thorin wrote:


And yet we have domesticated and enslaved animals to both cater for our own needs. Whether that be for companionship, or mere food.

Seriously, what is the difference?

I eat meat and make no reservations that i do, but I never try to hold the moral high ground over animals, when we have made many lose their own freedoms, by taking this away and domesticating them.

IT is wrong to take away animals from their habitat, but humans have made an industry of this with the likes of Cats and dogs. Do you think either if they knew true freedom, born free, would choose to be with humans, like the Orca?

Rolling Eyes

Bullshit,  Didge...

There is no genuine comparison..

While you can justifiably point to racing horses and dogs, dog and cock foghting, performing animals in circuses, or animals used to test trivial shit such as cosmetics, for comparison to whales, doplhins and seals when it comes to unjustifiable exploitation by man;  attempting to compare pets (and, by extension, 'companion' and working animals..) is simply ridiculous.

Indeed, thousands of years ago it was ancestors of many of todays pets, that saw some advantages to "hitching their wagon" to mankind's increasing expansion --  dogs that were willing to serve, cats that were ready to rule over the households, and birds flocking to the scraps...

Cattle, sheep, goats, camels and horses have long been exploited for work, food, hides, fertiliser..

However, comparing the cruel and unnatural, greed-fuelled use of intelligent sea life such as whales, dolphins, seals for the puerile and cruel entertainment of braindead humans, with either pets or livestock --  you're on a losing and irrational argument there, from the start..

You do not have an ethical leg to stand on



The case against pets:

A morally just world would have no pets, no aquaria, no zoos. No fields of sheep, no barns of cows. That’s true animal rights.


https://aeon.co/essays/why-keeping-a-pet-is-fundamentally-unethical

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