I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

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I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:01 am

The Denver Post recently featured an article about Coloradans who believe that the Earth is flat. As if that wasn’t surprising enough, some members of this community also believe that they are the recipients of flat-Earth prejudice, which I will now term “terrashapism.”

I don’t believe the Earth is flat; given my background, this is not surprising. I am a psychology professor who studies pseudoscience. I lecture about the fallibility of human intuition and the corresponding need for empiricism. I am a member of the National Center for Science Education. I am also a member of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry and a local group called Colorado Skeptics. Skeptics generally doubt claims that lack legitimate evidence, but support claims that do.


Accordingly, one might think that I would have nothing positive to say about the flat Earthers who meet just over my horizon. Not so. I love the flat Earth movement. As far as I’m concerned, flat Earthers are welcome to deflate the global Earth faster than New England Patriots footballs. To me, the flat-Earth movement isn’t a threat to scientific sensibility. That threat is already alive and well. Instead, the flat-Earth movement exposes the contradictions that many people create when they disparage flat Earthers, but tolerate or actively support other forms of pseudoscience.


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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:05 am

You should put quotes in a quote box, otherwise people might think you're falsely claiming to be psychology professor.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Angry Andy on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:06 am

We all know that Didge is the hospital shithouse cleaner.


Last edited by Angry Andy on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:07 am

Thorin wrote:The Denver Post recently featured an article about Coloradans who believe that the Earth is flat. As if that wasn’t surprising enough, some members of this community also believe that they are the recipients of flat-Earth prejudice, which I will now term “terrashapism.”

I don’t believe the Earth is flat; given my background, this is not surprising. I am a psychology professor who studies pseudoscience. I lecture about the fallibility of human intuition and the corresponding need for empiricism. I am a member of the National Center for Science Education. I am also a member of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry and a local group called Colorado Skeptics. Skeptics generally doubt claims that lack legitimate evidence, but support claims that do.


Accordingly, one might think that I would have nothing positive to say about the flat Earthers who meet just over my horizon. Not so. I love the flat Earth movement. As far as I’m concerned, flat Earthers are welcome to deflate the global Earth faster than New England Patriots footballs. To me, the flat-Earth movement isn’t a threat to scientific sensibility. That threat is already alive and well. Instead, the flat-Earth movement exposes the contradictions that many people create when they disparage flat Earthers, but tolerate or actively support other forms of pseudoscience.


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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:08 am

Angry Andy wrote:We all know that Didge is the hospital shithouse cleaner.


Not that I am a cleaner Andy, but nice to know how highly you value low paid unskilled workers.

And you claim to be Left wing?

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:43 am

Thorin wrote:
Angry Andy wrote:We all know that Didge is the hospital shithouse cleaner.


Not that I am a cleaner Andy, but nice to know how highly you value low paid unskilled workers.

And you claim to be Left wing?

Idea

An "unskilled worker" wouldn't get a job as a hospital cleaner....

They look for cleaning staff with a certain level of experience, and then they usually need some extra training (and the corresponding certificates) to work in certain areas..

The cleaning staff/contractors are expected to reach and maintain a certain standard when they work under certain conditions and in certain places --so depending on those requirements, hospital cleaners might be either semi-skilled, or even skilled, workers. --  and subsequently on a higher rate of pay than general cleaners..

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:48 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Not that I am a cleaner Andy, but nice to know how highly you value low paid unskilled workers.

And you claim to be Left wing?

Idea

An "unskilled worker" wouldn't get a job as a hospital cleaner....

They look for cleaning staff with a certain level of experience, and then they usually need some extra training (and the corresponding certificates) to work in certain areas..

The cleaning staff/contractors are expected to reach and maintain a certain standard when they work under certain conditions and in certain places --so depending on those requirements, hospital cleaners might be either semi-skilled, or even skilled, workers. --  and subsequently on a higher rate of pay than general cleaners..


Experience does not make a job role classified as skilled. It just means they are experienced at that role.

No person going for a cleaning job in the UK requires being skilled at anything or qualified. Other than speaking English. The same applies for cleaners in hospital, which in mine are mainly taken up by Nepalese, Polish and Latvian women.

Training is minimal

So just the vast majority of cleaners in the Uk are unskilled workers

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:55 am

Angry Andy wrote:We all know that Didge is the hospital shithouse cleaner.


How did he get your job Andy...!?

Were you a bit shit at it...?

Or did you get caught trying to rig up secret cameras in the ladies again...!!!???


lol!

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:01 am

Idea

@ Thorin :

It used to be like that in Australia, too...

But then they started requiring training for workers to be able to show minimum standards...

Down here, most of the hospitals use contractor firms for much of the cleaning -- and those contractors have to maintain certain standards of cleanliness and hygiene, as required in sterile and semi-sterile/clean areas, and around contaminated materials...

Those contractors, in turn, will use their more experienced staff for these jobs, and those cleaners will then be classified as "semi-skilled" as they require training certificates and that certain level of extra experience.

Nobody applying for a cleaners job in a hospital would get a start without some prior experience and some knowhow --  but would start as a general cleaner/labourer outside somewhere not so critical and then work their way up as they gain experience and knowledge -- so that their head cleaners and managers for hospital work (and places like laboratories, food factories and dangerous/toxic goods areas..) could be on better pay than that general cleaner working in a shopping centre, an office building or around the airport..

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:08 am

Cleaners are sometimes paid quite well compared to others who are in retail, for example.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:15 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:Idea

@ Thorin :

It used to be like that in Australia, too...

But then they started requiring training for workers to be able to show minimum standards...

Down here, most of the hospitals use contractor firms for much of the cleaning -- and those contractors have to maintain certain standards of cleanliness and hygiene, as required in sterile and semi-sterile/clean areas, and around contaminated materials...

Those contractors, in turn, will use their more experienced staff for these jobs, and those cleaners will then be classified as "semi-skilled" as they require training certificates and that certain level of extra experience.

Nobody applying for a cleaners job in a hospital would get a start without some prior experience and some knowhow --  but would start as a general cleaner/labourer outside somewhere not so critical and then work their way up as they gain experience and knowledge -- so that their head cleaners and managers for hospital work (and places like laboratories, food factories and dangerous/toxic goods areas..) could be on better pay than that general cleaner working in a shopping centre, an office building or around the airport..


That might be the case in Australia Wolf, but its not the case here.
People do not have to be skilled to apply and get cleaning jobs.
Granted they train them and give them certificates here also, but only specialized cleaning roles are skilled.
Like abseiling cleaners.

I think its wrong that people who have no skills or experience could be denied a job, that is essentially unskilled and can be taught very easily. In our hospitals cleans are designated based on levels. Green, amber and red. The later which requires an amber clean by the cleaner and a specialist company to come in and basically fumigate.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:20 am

I think it's wrong to call those types of jobs "unskilled". They might not require certain qualifications, but they do require skills.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:24 am

Raggamuffin wrote:I think it's wrong to call those types of jobs "unskilled". They might not require certain qualifications, but they do require skills.

What skills..?

Skilled jobs are normally roles that require certain qualifications. Like Nursing requires a Nursing degree.
To classify any job as skilled, means you have no differentiation on skilled and unskilled workers coming to the UK.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:26 am

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I think it's wrong to call those types of jobs "unskilled". They might not require certain qualifications, but they do require skills.

What skills..?

Skilled jobs are normally roles that require certain qualifications. Like Nursing requires a Nursing degree.
To classiy any job as skilled, means you have no differentiation on skilled and unskilled workers coming to the UK

Of course they require skills. Any job does. I've just explained that.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:27 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

What skills..?

Skilled jobs are normally roles that require certain qualifications. Like Nursing requires a Nursing degree.
To classiy any job as skilled, means you have no differentiation on skilled and unskilled workers coming to the UK

Of course they require skills. Any job does. I've just explained that.

Really, as I saw no explanation as to them being classed as skilled.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:28 am

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Of course they require skills. Any job does. I've just explained that.

Really, as I saw no explanation as to them being classed as skilled.

If you want to call yourself an unskilled worker, it's entirely up to you. It makes no difference to me.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:29 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Really, as I saw no explanation as to them being classed as skilled.

If you want to call yourself an unskilled worker, it's entirely up to you. It makes no difference to me.

So again no explanation and just misdirection.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:33 am

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

If you want to call yourself an unskilled worker, it's entirely up to you. It makes no difference to me.

So again no explanation and just misdirection.

I already explained. Maybe you should brush up on your reading skills.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:36 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So again no explanation and just misdirection.

I already explained. Maybe you should brush up on your reading skills.


I have no need to, as you never did explain

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Syl on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:18 am

Angry Andy wrote:We all know that Didge is the hospital shithouse cleaner.

My mum brought two girls up single handed without once asking for or receiving any state handouts...one of the jobs she worked hard at was as a hospital cleaner.
You might want to rethink your level of insult in future. No

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:23 am

Syl wrote:
Angry Andy wrote:We all know that Didge is the hospital shithouse cleaner.

My mum brought two girls up single handed without once asking for or receiving any state handouts...one of the jobs she worked hard at was as a hospital cleaner.
You might want to rethink your level of insult in future. No

+1

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Angry Andy on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:56 am

And to think you right wingers always call lefties 'senstive snowflakes'..
I guess if I was a hospital toilet cleaner I wouldn't  want to be associated with Thorin either.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:16 am

Andy... one day you might get promoted to the level of hospital toilet cleaner... but for now, there's a massive turd in trap 3 blocking it up that needs you to break it up with a stick... and then some colostomy bags need you to empty and wash out...!


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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:17 am

Angry Andy wrote:And to think you right wingers always call lefties 'senstive snowflakes'..
I guess if I was a hospital toilet cleaner I wouldn't  want to be associated with Thorin either.


Its the fact you presented the job as if it was beneath anyone to do.
You just made a complete wally of yourself

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Eilzel on Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:23 am

Wow. Never seen a thread derailed in one post before... well done guys.

On topic, can we please appreciate the advanced moronicness on display by flat-earthers Razz

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:29 am

Muslims follow their guide book that tells them the sun goes down into a muddy puddle...



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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by Original Quill on Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:41 pm

Eilzel wrote:Wow. Never seen a thread derailed in one post before... well done guys.

On topic, can we please appreciate the advanced moronicness on display by flat-earthers Razz

I know, right? Wolf also tried to turn it into a sensible thread, but he was shouted out.

My father was a physician and my youngest daughter is a physician, and her husband is a physician as well. (Also, I am a doctor, however in the history of political philosophy, not in any medical field. LOL.) My point is, I've spent thousands of hours waiting in the doctor's lounge for a ride home. Rolling Eyes

Anyway...at least I am a qualified observer. Wink A janitorial position in a hospital is a rather well-trained job, because of the antiseptic cleansing that has to be performed in certain areas. It's not just the doctors and nurses that have to scrub up for surgery these days. This is all the more true now that Staphylococcus bacterial infections have become epidemic in hospitals and clinics.

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Re: I’m a skeptic, and I love the flat-Earth movement

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:46 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I think it's wrong to call those types of jobs "unskilled". They might not require certain qualifications, but they do require skills.

What skills..?

Skilled jobs are normally roles that require certain qualifications. Like Nursing requires a Nursing degree.
To classify any job as skilled, means you have no differentiation on skilled and unskilled workers coming to the UK.

Arrow

Down here Doctors, lawyers, engineers, nurses, teachers and degree-holding managers would be classified as "professionals", while diploma holders would be "semi-professional"...

Tradespersons with trade certificates, and craftspersons and artisans with demonstrated skills and experience, would be classed as "skilled"..  As would many farmers, jockeys, horse trainers, journalists, bookkeepers, semi-trailer drivers and dangerous goods drivers, pipefitters and welders, riggers and scaffolders..

Trainees, apprentices, and people like cleaners, trades assistants, truck drivers, storemen/packers, clerks and retail workers, process workers, abbatoir workers, barmaids and barmen, even beekeepers and farmhands --  where the jobs require some inherent skills and work-knowledge --  will be classed as "semi-skilled" with a bit of job experience, and "skilled" of they upgrade their experience and qualifications..

This doesn't exclude "unskilled" workers from gaining jobs -- as trainees for the more skilled positions have to come from somewhere --  so there will always be that need for unslilled entry-level jobs as general labourers, general cleaners, labourer/cleaners, "gofers", farm labourers, fruit and vege' pickers, chicken chasers, "offsiders"..

(I've seen jobs like beekeeper, truck driver, stable hand, handyman listed as "unskilled" in job guides down here in the past --  where I know for a fact that some young school leaver without any experience or basic qualifications, or at least knowing somebody, simply won't get a look in...)

Down here, a jobs skills acreditaion system was introduced at a Federal level in the late 1980s, where acquired experience and training, various tickets, licences and certificates, and the likes could be recorded and compared nationally, so that a persons skills and knowledge could be recognised, once they had demonstrated the required level of skills and knowhow..

That means that the number of "unskilled" work positions/classifications is lower now than it was 30 years ago.

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