SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

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SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:47 pm

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[*]Our overstretched health service urgently needs 40,000 more nurses
[*]England’s largest hospital trust, Barts Health in London, has 1,732 unfilled jobs
[*]Applications for university nurse training are also down by 23 per cent this year
[*]Meanwhile, the NHS turns down many highly trained foreign nurses


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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:16 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

That is incorrect, as only Nurse practitioners can write prescriptions.

Which is a much higher level of Nursing.

Perhaps some of them are nurse practitioners. I know that I've had a prescription written by a nurse at my GPs.

They would have to be a Nurse practitioner Rags to do so. Which is a much higher level or Nursing.

Check the next time you are in and ask. As I guarantee they are a Nurse practitioner, if not they would be breaking the law. If they are not a nurse practitioner.

Read the stories rags, its not just the English test and one has a degree in English, but the length of time it takes to apply.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:20 am

Thorin wrote:1. Courtney Brown
Working as an agency carer, Courtney, 29, lives in London.
‘I started trying to be an NHS nurse in January 2016 so it has taken 19 months so far,’ says the critical care nurse from the Melbourne Royal Children’s Hospital in Australia.

‘Everything has to be sent by post. There was a problem because two of my references were emailed by mistake. My visa runs out in May and if I don’t get the registration I’ll have to go home.’

2. Claire Brady
The 26-year-old Australian is personal carer for an elderly man in Chelsea. Claire has a nursing degree and experience in emergency and recovery. She says: ‘There are a huge number of nurses from my country and New Zealand in the UK whose skills are going to waste in roles such as nannying, personal care and waitressing.’

3. Georgia van Zantvoort
The 24-year-old from Auckland, New Zealand, lives in Shepherd’s Bush, West London, and works as an adviser for an East London occupational health company.

Back home I’m an accident and emergency nurse. I have a two-year visa and I know it can take nearly that time to complete the tests leading up to NHS registration. It can cost more than £3,000 and I might only be a nurse here for a few months.’

4. Miriam Petterson
She has a nursing degree and worked for six years in a GP practice in New Zealand. At 29, Miriam also passed a specialist diploma from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Yet she is a nanny in Essex. Bizarrely, she failed the English test the first time, although her degree was in English. ‘I thought it was odd. I feel they set you up for failure.’

5. Mel Reed
The 23-year-old New Zealander has a nursing degree but works as an ophthalmic technician in Harley Street, London.
‘My visa is for two years and becoming an NHS nurse is such a long process. I decided that by the time I took the exams and did all the paperwork, I would have to go home again.’

6. Ingrid Matthews
A live-in nanny for a family in Putney, South-West London, Ingrid, 25, is from Melbourne, Australia. She has a degree in nursing and midwifery and came to London last September hoping to join the NHS. But the lengthy process has discouraged her. ‘A lot of nursing practice in my country originated here in London, yet still we can’t get a job here.’

7. Sophie Newcombe
The specialised respiratory nurse lives in Bayswater, West London, and is working as a nanny and switchboard operator. She was put off trying to become an NHS nurse because the process is so daunting.
Sophie, 25, says: ‘The nursing school I went to is one of the top ones in New Zealand. It took me three years at university and a year of postgraduate study to get my qualification, and apparently it means nothing here in the UK.’

8. Sarah Hindmarsh
A 29-year-old from Wellington, New Zealand, Sarah has a nursing degree but works as an adviser for an occupational health company in East London. She has a British passport (because her mother emigrated from Kent) and back home she ran a night ward.
However, she has twice failed the practical exam to become an NHS nurse and has given up. ‘I would now have to start again and that would cost another £3,000.’

9. Taylah Brackin
The Australian, 23, has a nursing degree and worked for two years at a large Queensland hospital before arriving here in April.
‘I started the process of registration by sitting the English test. I needed a mark of seven but got 6.5. I have a two-year visa and the whole process was going to last months, then I’d only have a short time left to work as a nurse.’
Now a teaching assistant living in Clapham, South London, she adds: ‘My nursing experience is being wasted.’

10. Chloe Horton
A general nurse from New Zealand living in Peterborough, 30-year-old Chloe works as a hospital healthcare assistant. She has been in the UK for 18 months and failed part of the clinical test necessary to be an NHS nurse.

Her visa runs out in November and because of time delays she is going to go home: ‘I am told half the nurses from Australia and New Zealand fail this clinical test the first time. It’s unfair we have to do an English language exam.’

11. Charlotte Rosenberg
Working as a nanny and living in Wandsworth Common, London, Charlotte, 25, has a nursing degree and was an orthopaedic nurse for 18 months before coming to Britain five weeks ago.
She is to start taking the exams leading to NHS registration soon. The English exam, the first, costs about £160: ‘English is the only language I speak and to be tested on it is so frustrating.’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4698328/Nurses-desperate-work-NHS.html#ixzz4mwt7sg8Z
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:24 am

Let's face it, if you fail, you're probably not cut out for nursing or any job that requires you can read, spell and communicate clearly and eloquently. Can you imagine if someone cocked up the medication log because they failed to have a decent command of English? You might end up killing people, like that idiot doctor who fucked up that kid's medication dose.

You'd be surprised how many people, even English people, don't have a command of the English language in either written or spoken form. This might seem trivial to most, but in the medical profession it might mean life or death. Clearly, it matters a great deal, otherwise the tests wouldn't be in place.
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:28 am

HoratioTarr wrote:Let's face it, if you fail, you're probably not cut out for nursing or any job that requires you can read, spell and communicate clearly and eloquently.   Can you imagine if someone cocked up the medication log because they failed to have a decent command of English?   You might end up killing people, like that  idiot doctor who fucked up that kid's medication dose.

You'd be surprised how many people, even English people,  don't have a command of the English language in either written or spoken form.  This might seem trivial to most, but in the medical profession it might mean life or death.   Clearly, it matters a great deal, otherwise the tests wouldn't be in place.  


But its not about simple spelling and as seen one even has an English degree.
So the level is set way to high on English comprehension.
So explain to me how a need for a high level of English comprehension would be a matter of life or death to a person with a degree in nursing?

No British nurse is even required to take such a test. So are you then saying that all British nurses take the English test?

As surely they should do and based on your reasoning patients lives are thus at risk?

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Jules on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:29 am

Thorin wrote:
Those very dim witted have no reply for my arguments.   Laughing

Tommy Monk wrote:You ..... are obviously dim wittedas you seem to believe that you do...



You are both accusing each other of being dim-witted.

Well TM isn't dim witted, he's quite sharp. He channels his intelligence in the wrong direction imo, but hey that's another story altogether.

As for you, Thorin. I wouldn't say you were sharp, exactly. However you are quite deviously clever inasmuchas  you always manage to come up smelling of roses even tho you are often *geranium* personified.

How do you convert geranium into roses??  Shocked  That must take a huge amount of cerebral skill.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:30 am

Jules wrote:
Thorin wrote:
Those very dim witted have no reply for my arguments.   Laughing

Tommy Monk wrote:You ..... are obviously dim wittedas you seem to believe that you do...



You are both accusing each other of being dim-witted.

Well TM isn't dim witted, he's quite sharp. He channels his intelligence in the wrong direction, imo, but hey that's another story altogether.

As for you, Thorin. I wouldn't say you were sharp, exactly. However you are quite deviously clever inasmuchas  you always manage to come up smelling of roses even tho you are often *geranium* personified.

How do you convert geranium into roses??  Shocked  That must take a huge amount of cerebral skill.


Thank you for your kind words off topic

Anything else?

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Jules on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:32 am

I did not use the C word, btw. I actually used the word geranium itself.
I have never used the C word in my life, except once, when I was copying someone's poem lol. Smile

Sleep tight, boys & gals. G/night

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:34 am

Jules wrote:I did not use the C word, btw. I actually used the word geranium itself.
I have never used the C word in my life, except once, when I was copying someone's poem lol.  Smile

Sleep tight, boys & gals. G/night


Thank you again for your input off topic

Anything else?

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:36 am

Thorin wrote:
Thorin wrote:1. Courtney Brown
Working as an agency carer, Courtney, 29, lives in London.
‘I started trying to be an NHS nurse in January 2016 so it has taken 19 months so far,’ says the critical care nurse from the Melbourne Royal Children’s Hospital in Australia.

‘Everything has to be sent by post. There was a problem because two of my references were emailed by mistake. My visa runs out in May and if I don’t get the registration I’ll have to go home.’

2. Claire Brady
The 26-year-old Australian is personal carer for an elderly man in Chelsea. Claire has a nursing degree and experience in emergency and recovery. She says: ‘There are a huge number of nurses from my country and New Zealand in the UK whose skills are going to waste in roles such as nannying, personal care and waitressing.’

3. Georgia van Zantvoort
The 24-year-old from Auckland, New Zealand, lives in Shepherd’s Bush, West London, and works as an adviser for an East London occupational health company.

Back home I’m an accident and emergency nurse. I have a two-year visa and I know it can take nearly that time to complete the tests leading up to NHS registration. It can cost more than £3,000 and I might only be a nurse here for a few months.’

4. Miriam Petterson
She has a nursing degree and worked for six years in a GP practice in New Zealand. At 29, Miriam also passed a specialist diploma from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Yet she is a nanny in Essex. Bizarrely, she failed the English test the first time, although her degree was in English. ‘I thought it was odd. I feel they set you up for failure.’

5. Mel Reed
The 23-year-old New Zealander has a nursing degree but works as an ophthalmic technician in Harley Street, London.
‘My visa is for two years and becoming an NHS nurse is such a long process. I decided that by the time I took the exams and did all the paperwork, I would have to go home again.’

6. Ingrid Matthews
A live-in nanny for a family in Putney, South-West London, Ingrid, 25, is from Melbourne, Australia. She has a degree in nursing and midwifery and came to London last September hoping to join the NHS. But the lengthy process has discouraged her. ‘A lot of nursing practice in my country originated here in London, yet still we can’t get a job here.’

7. Sophie Newcombe
The specialised respiratory nurse lives in Bayswater, West London, and is working as a nanny and switchboard operator. She was put off trying to become an NHS nurse because the process is so daunting.
Sophie, 25, says: ‘The nursing school I went to is one of the top ones in New Zealand. It took me three years at university and a year of postgraduate study to get my qualification, and apparently it means nothing here in the UK.’

8. Sarah Hindmarsh
A 29-year-old from Wellington, New Zealand, Sarah has a nursing degree but works as an adviser for an occupational health company in East London. She has a British passport (because her mother emigrated from Kent) and back home she ran a night ward.
However, she has twice failed the practical exam to become an NHS nurse and has given up. ‘I would now have to start again and that would cost another £3,000.’

9. Taylah Brackin
The Australian, 23, has a nursing degree and worked for two years at a large Queensland hospital before arriving here in April.
‘I started the process of registration by sitting the English test. I needed a mark of seven but got 6.5. I have a two-year visa and the whole process was going to last months, then I’d only have a short time left to work as a nurse.’
Now a teaching assistant living in Clapham, South London, she adds: ‘My nursing experience is being wasted.’

10. Chloe Horton
A general nurse from New Zealand living in Peterborough, 30-year-old Chloe works as a hospital healthcare assistant. She has been in the UK for 18 months and failed part of the clinical test necessary to be an NHS nurse.

Her visa runs out in November and because of time delays she is going to go home: ‘I am told half the nurses from Australia and New Zealand fail this clinical test the first time. It’s unfair we have to do an English language exam.’

11. Charlotte Rosenberg
Working as a nanny and living in Wandsworth Common, London, Charlotte, 25, has a nursing degree and was an orthopaedic nurse for 18 months before coming to Britain five weeks ago.
She is to start taking the exams leading to NHS registration soon. The English exam, the first, costs about £160: ‘English is the only language I speak and to be tested on it is so frustrating.’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4698328/Nurses-desperate-work-NHS.html#ixzz4mwt7sg8Z
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Why would someone with a nursing degree want to work as a nanny etc? You'd just go back to New Zealand. Either that or stop moaning.

And any UK nurses wishing to nurse in Australia or New Zealand also have to take the English test.
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:36 am

I have just been reading that to qualify to study for a nursing degree in the Uk by someone foreign has to obtain a score or 6.0. in English at many Universities.

Thus clearly the level set at 7.0. for Nursing itself, is clearly way to high.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:38 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Why would someone with a nursing degree want to work as a nanny etc?  You'd just go back to New Zealand.   Either that or stop moaning.

And any UK nurses wishing to nurse in Australia or New Zealand also have to take the English test.  


So your reasoning is based on what you would do and not what they might do?
Explain that to me?

So what is the pass mark in Australia?

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:42 am

So in Australia its set at 6.5.

Like I say the bar is set way to high in the UK

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:46 am

Even nurses from the EU are not required to take the English test.

So it seems a very flawed system to only test some nurses and even more so when they are native speaking English. As they are in Australia for example. I imagine that if many British nurses took the test and with the bar set so high, many would also fail. Where then we would have even less nurses.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:48 am

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:Let's face it, if you fail, you're probably not cut out for nursing or any job that requires you can read, spell and communicate clearly and eloquently.   Can you imagine if someone cocked up the medication log because they failed to have a decent command of English?   You might end up killing people, like that  idiot doctor who fucked up that kid's medication dose.

You'd be surprised how many people, even English people,  don't have a command of the English language in either written or spoken form.  This might seem trivial to most, but in the medical profession it might mean life or death.   Clearly, it matters a great deal, otherwise the tests wouldn't be in place.  


But its not about simple spelling and as seen one even has an English degree.
So the level is set way to high on English comprehension.
So explain to me how a need for a high level of English comprehension would be a matter of life or death to a person with a degree in nursing?

No British nurse is even required to take such a test. So are you then saying that all British nurses take the English test?

As surely they should do and based on your reasoning patients lives are thus at risk?

My sister in law took a degree in English Language and passed with some of the most appalling spelling and grammar I've ever seen. I was aghast she got it. So, having a degree doesn't necessarily mean jack shit.

Do you suppose these tests are put there for the fun of it? If they fail it, then what does that tell you?

Answer me this...why do English speaking people fail this test? If say, a person from Uganda failed it, and someone from New Zealand failed it, are they to let the New Zealander get in just because her first language is English?
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:50 am

Thorin wrote:So in Australia its set at 6.5.

Like I say the bar is set way to high in the UK

It's set at 7 in the UK. Not that much higher.
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:53 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:


But its not about simple spelling and as seen one even has an English degree.
So the level is set way to high on English comprehension.
So explain to me how a need for a high level of English comprehension would be a matter of life or death to a person with a degree in nursing?

No British nurse is even required to take such a test. So are you then saying that all British nurses take the English test?

As surely they should do and based on your reasoning patients lives are thus at risk?

My sister in law took a degree in English Language and passed with some of the most appalling spelling and grammar I've ever seen. I was aghast she got it.   So, having a degree doesn't necessarily mean jack shit.

Do you suppose these tests are put there for the fun of it?      If they fail it, then what does that tell you?  

Answer me this...why do English speaking people fail this test?   If say, a person from Uganda failed it, and someone from New Zealand failed it, are they to let the New Zealander get in just because her first language is English?


You are not grasping the point here are you?

Its the level set to pass that is the issue. Not on whether there should be tests.
I have nothing against tests for English but its not done Universally for all nurses.
Only those coming from outside the EU.

Well why not take the test yourself and see if you score at 7 or higher and then tell me whether its reasonable or not to then do nursing here?

I mean have you even seen the tests?

So your point on someone from Uganda is irrelevant.

If you are going to have an English test, then it should be applicable to all people who want to do nursing. Including those British. As they and EU nurses are not required to do this test.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:54 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:So in Australia its set at 6.5.

Like I say the bar is set way to high in the UK

It's set at 7 in the UK.  Not that much higher.


And at Universities its set at 6.

So again its set way to high


IELTS has four elements: speaking, listening, reading and writing. To qualify to work in the NHS, candidates need to score at least seven out of nine in each section. Purcell, who spent AU$650 (£386) on the test, managed 6.5 in writing and seven in reading.

“The essay test was to discuss whether TV was good or bad for children. They’re looking for how you structure the essay,” she said. “I wrote essays all the time when I was doing my bachelor of nursing. I didn’t think I’d have to do another one. I don’t even know why I failed.”

Her case is echoed by Jorja McDonald, a nurse with three years’ experience from Springfield in Queensland, who reached 6.5 in reading and 6.5 in writing despite being a native English speaker. Afroditi Mavromyti, from Patras in Greece, has a master’s degree in psychology and 10 years’ nursing experience. She has taken the test three times and narrowly failed with a 6.5 in writing..

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:55 am

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:Let's face it, if you fail, you're probably not cut out for nursing or any job that requires you can read, spell and communicate clearly and eloquently.   Can you imagine if someone cocked up the medication log because they failed to have a decent command of English?   You might end up killing people, like that  idiot doctor who fucked up that kid's medication dose.

You'd be surprised how many people, even English people,  don't have a command of the English language in either written or spoken form.  This might seem trivial to most, but in the medical profession it might mean life or death.   Clearly, it matters a great deal, otherwise the tests wouldn't be in place.  


But its not about simple spelling and as seen one even has an English degree.
So the level is set way to high on English comprehension.
So explain to me how a need for a high level of English comprehension would be a matter of life or death to a person with a degree in nursing?

No British nurse is even required to take such a test. So are you then saying that all British nurses take the English test?

As surely they should do and based on your reasoning patients lives are thus at risk?

The test is used to filter out those who are incompetent in English language skills etc. The fact that you come from an English speaking country is irrelevant. If you fail the test, you fail the test no matter who you are. That's just how it is.

Anyway, in the words of Kate Bush, I'm off to dream of sheep...
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:57 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:


But its not about simple spelling and as seen one even has an English degree.
So the level is set way to high on English comprehension.
So explain to me how a need for a high level of English comprehension would be a matter of life or death to a person with a degree in nursing?

No British nurse is even required to take such a test. So are you then saying that all British nurses take the English test?

As surely they should do and based on your reasoning patients lives are thus at risk?

The test is used to filter out those who are incompetent in English language skills etc.   The fact that you come from an English speaking country is irrelevant.   If you fail the test, you fail the test no matter who you are.  That's just how it is.

Anyway, in the words of Kate Bush,  I'm off to dream of sheep...


Yes I am very aware of the reasons for the test, but as seen this is about the level to pass the test.

So why do Universities have a level of competency of English at 6.0 to do nursing degrees?

And yet the bar is higher to be nurse in the Uk, only from Non-Eu countries?

Sleep well Horatio

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:02 am

HCL, the recruitment agency which has been attempting to place Purcell, said that only 176 of 949 candidates they have put forward have achieved at least seven out of nine in the test. Native English speakers average just 6.3 in writing and 6.7 in reading, according to the British Council, a joint owner of the test. HCL says foreign nurses who come to the UK to study only need to reach 6.0 to get a place on a nursing degree at universities including Warwick and Gloucester.

“While we have no doubt that language testing is an essential part of recruiting overseas nurses, we firmly believe the current IELTS standard is not fit for this purpose,” Burke of HCL said. “The NMC should look at switching to an average required score.”

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:15 am

Its 6 to be able to start studying... to actually end up qualifying they would have had to show more...



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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:16 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Its 6 to be able to start studying... to actually end up qualifying they would have had to show more...




Which contradicts

If 6 is good enough to learn to study in the UK to be a nurse, why would it need to be higher to be an actual Nurse?


That makes zero sense

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:24 am

Anyway, interesting debate Tommy.

All the best and night

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:30 am

Because they will improve their skills while training...

Those who dont will likely struggle and fail...

But it gives more people the chance...

Those who do end up qualifying, would have had to show much more ability than is set for entry level students...


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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:28 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Why would someone with a nursing degree want to work as a nanny etc?  You'd just go back to New Zealand.   Either that or stop moaning.

And any UK nurses wishing to nurse in Australia or New Zealand also have to take the English test.  

That's what I've been saying, and I was called "racist". Razz

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:11 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Because they will improve their skills while training...

Those who dont will likely struggle and fail...

But it gives more people the chance...

Those who do end up qualifying, would have had to show much more ability than is set for entry level students...



Again if the level is set at 6, then clearly this is sufficient to study and learn.

So it need to not be higher then for nursing itself

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:34 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:


But its not about simple spelling and as seen one even has an English degree.
So the level is set way to high on English comprehension.
So explain to me how a need for a high level of English comprehension would be a matter of life or death to a person with a degree in nursing?

No British nurse is even required to take such a test. So are you then saying that all British nurses take the English test?

As surely they should do and based on your reasoning patients lives are thus at risk?

The test is used to filter out those who are incompetent in English language skills etc.   The fact that you come from an English speaking country is irrelevant.   If you fail the test, you fail the test no matter who you are.  That's just how it is.

Anyway, in the words of Kate Bush,  I'm off to dream of sheep...

I have no idea why you got a red for that post as it's common sense. There are tests for all kinds of professions, and if you fail, you fail.

It would be interesting to do one of these tests. I found one online but I don't know if it was typical or representative. I got 10/10.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:19 am

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Because they will improve their skills while training...

Those who dont will likely struggle and fail...

But it gives more people the chance...

Those who do end up qualifying, would have had to show much more ability than is set for entry level students...



Again if the level is set at 6, then clearly this is sufficient to study and learn.

So it need to not be higher then for nursing itself


Dont be a twat dodge... entry level is always going to be a lower bar than what is expected at qualifying level...!!!

For example, the entry level to start studying a degree will mean you need A levels, but the finishing degree award level is higher than an A level... its quite simple...!

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:28 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Again if the level is set at 6, then clearly this is sufficient to study and learn.

So it need to not be higher then for nursing itself


Dont be a twat dodge... entry level is always going to be a lower bar than what is expected at qualifying level...!!!

For example, the entry level to start studying a degree will mean you need A levels, but the finishing degree award level is higher than an A level... its quite simple...!



The above is complete gibberish on every level. As to study you need to have a competency in English, not that they are taking an English degree you dummy. Hence again your view point is so stupid it fails to grasp the point, that they are studying for a nursing degree. Thus to do this degree, English competency is set at 6, then the same should apply for nursing itself. Clearly 6 is deemed sufficient to study any degree in the UK and to me if they have already passed this to study here. They need not go through an English competency test again when going for nursing.

Even Australian and the US have lower rates at 6.5

Hence the UK rate is too high

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:42 am

The students would have qualified at a higher finishing level than they started with... asking others to show their ability to this same finish level is only fair...

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:45 am

Tommy Monk wrote:The students would have qualified at a higher finishing level than they started with... asking others to show their ability to this same finish level is only fair...


Gibberish again.
They are studying Nursing and would not need to have any higher level on English competency to obtain the degree. This is about as clear as day, as its set to study at 6.
So you are talking absolute rubbish.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:52 am

Didge... just because you dont have the mental capacity to understand the simplicity of what im saying, does not mean it is gibberish...

It just means you are a bit thick...


Just like these English speaking nurses must be to fail an English test...

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:53 am

Anyway, this is just going around in circles.

If the US and Australia have theirs set at 6.5, I see no reason why we should not do the same. Especially due to the nurse shortage that we have. Far more lives are going to be put at risk, by having less and less nurses.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:04 am

Surely there's not a lot of difference between 6.5 and 7. It's not obligatory to have the same pass rate as others.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:07 am

Raggamuffin wrote:Surely there's not a lot of difference between 6.5 and 7. It's not obligatory to have the same pass rate as others.

Well just look at how many fail as they get 6.5 or just below 7.

Plenty of this evidence has been posted on here already Rags.
Clearly it would open the door up to countless more people becoming Nurses.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:12 am

I also would ask if anyone can show me how a 6.5 pass rate on English would mean Nurses would be incapable of carrying out their duties as a Nurse. Why it has to be 7 here and not elsewhere in the world? The NHS is at breaking point with shortages. So clearly a rethink is needed.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:21 am

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Surely there's not a lot of difference between 6.5 and 7. It's not obligatory to have the same pass rate as others.

Well just look at how many fail as they get 6.5 or just below 7.

Plenty of this evidence has been posted on here already Rags.
Clearly it would open the door up to countless more people becoming Nurses.

How many do fail because they get 6.5 or just below 7 then?

Maybe you should write a letter to someone to complain.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:24 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Well just look at how many fail as they get 6.5 or just below 7.

Plenty of this evidence has been posted on here already Rags.
Clearly it would open the door up to countless more people becoming Nurses.

How many do fail because they get 6.5 or just below 7 then?

Maybe you should write a letter to someone to complain.

Again that would be interesting to know and understand, where even you admit the difference in competency would be minimal between 6.5 and 7.

Thus again my point still stands and which remains unanswered.

What makes 6.5 competency level of English, stop anyone from being able to nurse effectively?

Also from your own link

A petition calling for the pass  rate  to  be reduced  has been signed by more than 3,600 nurses.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by eddie on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:31 am

Perhaps they want to come here simply to have a taste of British life?
Who cares? We need some good nurses.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:34 am

eddie wrote:Perhaps they want to come here simply to have a taste of British life?
Who cares? We need some good nurses.

And we are stopped from having many, because the English competency level is set too high.

Which goes back to my point, why would a 6.5 level making someone unable to carry out the duties of being a nurse?

No British nurses are required to take such a test.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by HoratioTarr on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:48 am

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Surely there's not a lot of difference between 6.5 and 7. It's not obligatory to have the same pass rate as others.

Well just look at how many fail as they get 6.5 or just below 7.

Plenty of this evidence has been posted on here already Rags.
Clearly it would open the door up to countless more people becoming Nurses.

If a person fails their degree, where others pass, should we lower the standard of the degree?
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by HoratioTarr on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:50 am

Thorin wrote:
eddie wrote:Perhaps they want to come here simply to have a taste of British life?
Who cares? We need some good nurses.

And we are stopped from having many, because the English competency level is set too high.

Which goes back to my point, why would a 6.5 level making someone unable to carry out the duties of being a nurse?

No British nurses are required to take such a test.

No New Zealander or Australian has to either, in their own country. But UK nurses do if they want to work there.
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:51 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Well just look at how many fail as they get 6.5 or just below 7.

Plenty of this evidence has been posted on here already Rags.
Clearly it would open the door up to countless more people becoming Nurses.

If a person fails their degree, where others pass, should we lower the standard of the degree?

Absurd reasoning.

As the English standard pass rate is subjective based on the country.

Nobody is asking for the level of degrees to be lowered.

You even admitted the level would be minimal in difference.

So explain to me how a level of between 6.5 and 7 would make a person unable to be an effective nurse?

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:52 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:

And we are stopped from having many, because the English competency level is set too high.

Which goes back to my point, why would a 6.5 level making someone unable to carry out the duties of being a nurse?

No British nurses are required to take such a test.

No New Zealander or Australian has to either, in their own country.  But UK nurses do if they want to work there.

But what about British Nurses here?

None of them have to do the test

In Australia and New Zealand its set at 6.5.

So clearly the level they set English competency does not hinder people carrying out their duties as nurses does it?

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by HoratioTarr on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:55 am

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

If a person fails their degree, where others pass, should we lower the standard of the degree?

Absurd reasoning.

As the English standard pass rate is subjective based on the country.

Nobody is asking for the level of degrees to be lowered.

You even admitted the level would be minimal in difference.

So explain to me how a level of between 6.5 and 7 would make a person unable to be an effective nurse?

You're the one banging on about it's too high, not anyone else. If you can't grasp the allusion I've just posted regarding degrees, then there's no point trying to explain further. You're hell bent on your opinion, which is fine. So we'll agree to disagree.
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by HoratioTarr on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:57 am

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

No New Zealander or Australian has to either, in their own country.  But UK nurses do if they want to work there.

But what about British Nurses here?

None of them have to do the test

In Australia and New Zealand its set at 6.5.

So clearly the level they set English competency does not hinder people carrying out their duties as nurses does it?

Because they're not coming into the country, are they? What part of "this test is designed as a safety net against incoming incompetence", don't you get?
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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:57 am

eddie wrote:Perhaps they want to come here simply to have a taste of British life?
Who cares? We need some good nurses.

Yes, but they do need to be good at English and numeracy too.

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:58 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Absurd reasoning.

As the English standard pass rate is subjective based on the country.

Nobody is asking for the level of degrees to be lowered.

You even admitted the level would be minimal in difference.

So explain to me how a level of between 6.5 and 7 would make a person unable to be an effective nurse?

You're the one banging on about it's too high, not anyone else.    If you can't grasp the allusion I've just posted regarding degrees, then there's no point trying to explain further.   You're hell bent on your opinion, which is fine.   So we'll agree to disagree.

Calm down petal, its only a debate and I am not the only one calling for this to be lowered.

Again nobody is asking for the standard of degrees to be lowered.

Hence the absurdity of your point when this is based on English competency, which varies. In Universities it need only be 6. In Other English speaking countries its 6.5.

If they have nurses on this competency will no ill effect from doing so, then there is no reason why here we can not reduce to the same level

So explain to me how a level of between 6.5 and 7 would make a person unable to be an effective nurse?

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Re: SUE REID: These nurses from Down Under are in Britain and desperate to work for an understaffed NHS after the Grenfell Tower disaster - but red tape and a crazy English test stop them

Post by Thorin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:00 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:

But what about British Nurses here?

None of them have to do the test

In Australia and New Zealand its set at 6.5.

So clearly the level they set English competency does not hinder people carrying out their duties as nurses does it?

Because they're not coming into the country, are they?   What part of "this test is designed as a safety net against incoming incompetence", don't you get?

So based on your reasoning, then all Nurses in Australia and the US are unsafe, as they set this at 6.5?

You need to show me how and why at 7 is valid for a safety net when clearly else where its not?

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