Opt out or opt in?

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Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:15 pm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/please-save-life-prime-minister-10738835

"Schoolboy Max Johnson has made an impassioned plea to Theresa May over his desperate need for a new heart, urging the PM: “Please change the law to save me.”
The nine-year-old, who made the emotional appeal last night, has been waiting six months for a donor as he has an enlarged heart and relies on a tiny pump in his chest to keep him alive.
The Mirror is calling on the Government to change the law on organ donation so that people are automatically potential organ donors unless they opt out, to save thousands of extra lives."




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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:19 pm

I always argued that to 'opt in' was the right way.
Why should anyone take your organs without permission?

I always carried a donor card and thought that was the right way to go...people should be able to give consent before they die....if they don't their organs are theirs to keep, even in death.

This little lad has changed my mind 100%.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:44 pm

Opt in is the only ethical way to do it.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by magica on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:04 pm

I have a donor card.

I always think we should opt in, not be told,, I still do.

Many people don't want their bodies cut up and bits taken, as is their right.

I think personally, what do they need them for, they will be cremated or buried, rotting in the earth, yet they might give life to someone else.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:09 pm

There should perhaps be more awareness and more encouragement to donate, but there should never be pressure on anyone to opt out. If they do opt out, they will be made to feel guilty.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by HoratioTarr on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:50 pm

I think it should be compulsory. You don't need your body when you're dead.
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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by nicko on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:13 am

+1
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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:40 am

HoratioTarr wrote:I think it should be compulsory.   You don't need your body when you're dead.

No you don't, but you do need it when you're alive, and that's when the decision needs to be made.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:57 am

So many people don't make the decision though....its too late after they are dead.
I argued years ago about this on a forum....I was dead against the opt out method then, but its one of those times when I have changed my mind. Listening to debate, reading about organ shortages that could help someone else to live, but mostly reading about Max.....he could be helped to live a happy healthy life if a heart was available....if not he will die a slow and painful death before he is much older.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:12 am

Raggamuffin wrote:There should perhaps be more awareness and more encouragement to donate, but there should never be pressure on anyone to opt out. If they do opt out, they will be made to feel guilty.

There should be more advertising, but that has never happened....even when the opt in or out subject crops up in the news...which is has done several times over the years.

I picked a donor card up in the Dr's surgery decades ago... they were also displayed on some chemist counters, I haven't seen one of them for years, I suppose everyone is expected to fill in a form online now.

If the opt out system does become legal...no one should ever be made to feel guilty.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:02 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:I think it should be compulsory.   You don't need your body when you're dead.

No you don't, but you do need it when you're alive, and that's when the decision needs to be made.

Why? Imagine how wonderful it would be to save or change lives through donating your organs. What possible use are they rotting in the ground? They're no use to the relatives either.
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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:08 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

No you don't, but you do need it when you're alive, and that's when the decision needs to be made.

Why?   Imagine how wonderful it would be to save or change lives through donating your organs.   What possible use are they rotting in the ground?   They're no use to the relatives either.  

The dead person wouldn't know it would be wonderful though. The time to decide is when they're alive, and it should be their decision, they should not be forced to opt out if they have reasons for not wanting to do it.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:10 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Why?   Imagine how wonderful it would be to save or change lives through donating your organs.   What possible use are they rotting in the ground?   They're no use to the relatives either.  

The dead person wouldn't know it would be wonderful though. The time to decide is when they're alive, and it should be their decision, they should not be forced to opt out if they have reasons for not wanting to do it.

Well, perhaps an opt out is done in life, and then if you don't opt out then you automatically get to leave your organs.
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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:05 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

The dead person wouldn't know it would be wonderful though. The time to decide is when they're alive, and it should be their decision, they should not be forced to opt out if they have reasons for not wanting to do it.

Well, perhaps an opt out is done in life, and then if you don't opt out then you automatically get to leave your organs.  

I just don't think that people should be forced to opt out of donating parts of their own body. It belongs to them.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:54 pm

I imagine most organs that are donated end up being dissected for educational purposes, which is fine.
But how wonderful would it be if one of your or your families organs helped someone who would otherwise have died, live a long and fruitful life?

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:12 pm

Syl wrote:I imagine most organs that are donated end up being dissected for educational purposes, which is fine.
But how wonderful would it be if one of your or your families organs helped someone who would otherwise have died, live a long and fruitful life?

If they think it would be wonderful, they are free to donate their organs.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by eddie on Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:38 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:I think it should be compulsory.   You don't need your body when you're dead.

Totally agree. It's called human recycling.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:48 pm

No, people own their organs, and nobody has the right to tell they must "opt out" of giving them away when they're dead.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:46 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:No, people own their organs, and nobody has the right to tell they must "opt out" of giving them away when they're dead.

Some people still believe that women don't own their own bodies...or at least their uteruses.  Heathens...Rolling Eyes  

Oh that's right, they're Alabamans. elephant

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:46 pm

Whats the law re organ donation in the US Quill...is it the same as ours presently is?

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:48 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:I imagine most organs that are donated end up being dissected for educational purposes, which is fine.
But how wonderful would it be if one of your or your families organs helped someone who would otherwise have died, live a long and fruitful life?

If they think it would be wonderful, they are free to donate their organs.

I think its wonderful, I cant speak for others.
I know...that's the way the it is at the moment, but lots of people don't bother to sign the consent form so their organs are wasted.

I do see your point though, I thought the same for a long time.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:54 pm

Syl wrote:Whats the law re organ donation in the US Quill...is it the same as ours presently is?

Generally, it's favorable...just cautious for reasons of fraud.  The aim is to provide the safest and most equitable system for allocation, distribution, and transplantation of donated organs.

The primary legislation related to organ donation and transplantation in India, Transplantation of Human Organs Act, was passed in 1994 and is aimed at regulation of removal, storage and transplantation of human organs for therapeutic purposes and for prevention of commercial dealings in human organs.

Furthermore, "the National Organ Transplant Act outlawed the sale of human organs and provided for the establishment of the Task Force on Organ Transplantation; authorized the Department of Health and Human Services to make grants for the planning, establishment, and initial operation of qualified Organ Procurement Organizations (OPOs); and established the formation of the Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network and Scientific Registry of Transplant Recipients."

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:04 pm

Syl wrote:I always argued that to 'opt in'  was the right way.
Why should anyone take your organs without permission?

I always carried a donor card and thought that was the right way to go...people should be able to give consent before they die....if they don't their organs are theirs to keep, even in death.

This little lad has changed my mind 100%.
if you dont want them taken then opt out. what on earth do you need with them after you are dead.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:05 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:Whats the law re organ donation in the US Quill...is it the same as ours presently is?

Generally, it's favorable...just cautious for reasons of fraud.  The aim is to provide the safest and most equitable system for allocation, distribution, and transplantation of donated organs.

The primary legislation related to organ donation and transplantation in India, Transplantation of Human Organs Act, was passed in 1994 and is aimed at regulation of removal, storage and transplantation of human organs for therapeutic purposes and for prevention of commercial dealings in human organs.

Furthermore, "the National Organ Transplant Act outlawed the sale of human organs and provided for the establishment of the Task Force on Organ Transplantation; authorized the Department of Health and Human Services to make grants for the planning, establishment, and initial operation of qualified Organ Procurement Organizations (OPOs); and established the formation of the Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network and Scientific Registry of Transplant Recipients."

But is it opt in or opt out?
Presently in the UK no medical team can/should take any organs from the deceased unless permission has been granted, either by being on the donor list or asking permission from the nearest relative...which can be distressing all round.

There is talk that our laws may be changed in the future, so people would have to specifically state that they don't want their organs to be used after death.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:07 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Opt in is the only ethical way to do it.
not at all, if everyone is automatically eligible then opting out should be the way to go, 100's of thousands die every year denying millions a chance at life, or sight or a host of other treatments.
the only human way is to let your waste find a use to benefit others.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:08 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Syl wrote:I always argued that to 'opt in'  was the right way.
Why should anyone take your organs without permission?

I always carried a donor card and thought that was the right way to go...people should be able to give consent before they die....if they don't their organs are theirs to keep, even in death.

This little lad has changed my mind 100%.
if you dont want them taken then opt out. what on earth do you need with them after you are dead.

Well exactly, you don't need them.
I can see though that some families may not want their family members cut up for spare parts in the event of their death....if they (deceased) have not opted out, this could easily happen.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:08 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:I think it should be compulsory.   You don't need your body when you're dead.
exactly, if you disagree it is not hard to opt out.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:09 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:There should perhaps be more awareness and more encouragement to donate, but there should never be pressure on anyone to opt out. If they do opt out, they will be made to feel guilty.

There should be more advertising, but that has never happened....even when the opt in or out subject crops up in the news...which is has done several times over the years.

I picked a donor card up in the Dr's surgery decades ago... they were also displayed on some chemist counters, I haven't seen one of them for years, I suppose everyone is expected to fill in a form online now.

If the opt out system does become legal...no one should ever  be made to feel guilty.
the donor card is useless if you relatives object

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:10 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

No you don't, but you do need it when you're alive, and that's when the decision needs to be made.

Why?   Imagine how wonderful it would be to save or change lives through donating your organs.   What possible use are they rotting in the ground?   They're no use to the relatives either.  
one body could save several peoples lives. 2 kidneys, 1 liver, 1 heart, lungs, eyes. we are a whole life saving emergency kit.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:12 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Why?   Imagine how wonderful it would be to save or change lives through donating your organs.   What possible use are they rotting in the ground?   They're no use to the relatives either.  

The dead person wouldn't know it would be wonderful though. The time to decide is when they're alive, and it should be their decision, they should not be forced to opt out if they have reasons for not wanting to do it.
if they are dead they are dead. dead people are artificially kept alive for transplants, it is selfish not to help

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:12 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Syl wrote:

There should be more advertising, but that has never happened....even when the opt in or out subject crops up in the news...which is has done several times over the years.

I picked a donor card up in the Dr's surgery decades ago... they were also displayed on some chemist counters, I haven't seen one of them for years, I suppose everyone is expected to fill in a form online now.

If the opt out system does become legal...no one should ever  be made to feel guilty.
the donor card is useless if you relatives object

Is it? So that means relatives can override your wishes to donate organs after you die....that's wrong.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:13 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Well, perhaps an opt out is done in life, and then if you don't opt out then you automatically get to leave your organs.  

I just don't think that people should be forced to opt out of donating parts of their own body. It belongs to them.
they wouldn't be forced, that would be a choice. there are too many needing transplants because too few donate.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:13 pm

Syl wrote:I imagine most organs that are donated end up being dissected for educational purposes, which is fine.
But how wonderful would it be if one of your or your families organs helped someone who would otherwise have died, live a long and fruitful life?
they dont usually help just one person they help many people

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:14 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:No, people own their organs, and nobody has the right to tell they must "opt out" of giving them away when they're dead.
consider it the final payment for years of NHS care.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:16 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Generally, it's favorable...just cautious for reasons of fraud.  The aim is to provide the safest and most equitable system for allocation, distribution, and transplantation of donated organs.

The primary legislation related to organ donation and transplantation in India, Transplantation of Human Organs Act, was passed in 1994 and is aimed at regulation of removal, storage and transplantation of human organs for therapeutic purposes and for prevention of commercial dealings in human organs.

Furthermore, "the National Organ Transplant Act outlawed the sale of human organs and provided for the establishment of the Task Force on Organ Transplantation; authorized the Department of Health and Human Services to make grants for the planning, establishment, and initial operation of qualified Organ Procurement Organizations (OPOs); and established the formation of the Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network and Scientific Registry of Transplant Recipients."

But is it opt in or opt out?
Presently in the UK no medical team  can/should take any organs from the deceased unless permission has been granted, either by being on the donor list or asking permission from the nearest relative...which can be distressing all round.

There is talk that our laws may be changed in the future, so people would have to specifically state that they don't want their organs to be used after death.
it is the permission of the relatives. the donor card is meaningless if relatives object

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:16 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Syl wrote:

There should be more advertising, but that has never happened....even when the opt in or out subject crops up in the news...which is has done several times over the years.

I picked a donor card up in the Dr's surgery decades ago... they were also displayed on some chemist counters, I haven't seen one of them for years, I suppose everyone is expected to fill in a form online now.

If the opt out system does become legal...no one should ever  be made to feel guilty.
the donor card is useless if you relatives object

Just checked...I think you are wrong according to this.

https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/faq/consent/


"If your family or relatives object to the donation when you made your decision clear before you died, we will:
discuss the matter with them,
encourage them to accept your decision, and
make it clear that they do not have the legal right to override your decision."


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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:17 pm

Syl wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
the donor card is useless if you relatives object

Is it? So that means relatives can override your wishes to donate organs after you die....that's wrong.
yes they can

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:18 pm

Syl wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
the donor card is useless if you relatives object

Just checked...I think you are wrong according to this.

https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/faq/consent/


"If your family or relatives object to the donation when you made your decision clear before you died, we will:
discuss the matter with them,
encourage them to accept your decision, and
make it clear that they do not have the legal right to override your decision."

they can still say no.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:22 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Syl wrote:

Just checked...I think you are wrong according to this.

https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/faq/consent/


"If your family or relatives object to the donation when you made your decision clear before you died, we will:
discuss the matter with them,
encourage them to accept your decision, and
make it clear that they do not have the legal right to override your decision."

they can still say no.

Not according to the NHS donation info link.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by eddie on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:16 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Syl wrote:I always argued that to 'opt in'  was the right way.
Why should anyone take your organs without permission?

I always carried a donor card and thought that was the right way to go...people should be able to give consent before they die....if they don't their organs are theirs to keep, even in death.

This little lad has changed my mind 100%.
if you dont want them taken then opt out. what on earth do you need with them after you are dead.

The only argument I keep reading on here is "I own my body parts!"

Other than that there seems no other argument.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:51 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Generally, it's favorable...just cautious for reasons of fraud.  The aim is to provide the safest and most equitable system for allocation, distribution, and transplantation of donated organs.

The primary legislation related to organ donation and transplantation in India, Transplantation of Human Organs Act, was passed in 1994 and is aimed at regulation of removal, storage and transplantation of human organs for therapeutic purposes and for prevention of commercial dealings in human organs.

Furthermore, "the National Organ Transplant Act outlawed the sale of human organs and provided for the establishment of the Task Force on Organ Transplantation; authorized the Department of Health and Human Services to make grants for the planning, establishment, and initial operation of qualified Organ Procurement Organizations (OPOs); and established the formation of the Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network and Scientific Registry of Transplant Recipients."

But is it opt in or opt out?
Presently in the UK no medical team  can/should take any organs from the deceased unless permission has been granted, either by being on the donor list or asking permission from the nearest relative...which can be distressing all round.

There is talk that our laws may be changed in the future, so people would have to specifically state that they don't want their organs to be used after death.

Presently, no state has a 'presumed consent' law. Legislators in states like Colorado, California, Delaware, New Jersey and New York have pushed for presumed consent; in fact, lawmakers in at least seven states have looked at presumed consent bills between 2011 and 2015. All attempts have failed.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:16 am

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

But is it opt in or opt out?
Presently in the UK no medical team  can/should take any organs from the deceased unless permission has been granted, either by being on the donor list or asking permission from the nearest relative...which can be distressing all round.

There is talk that our laws may be changed in the future, so people would have to specifically state that they don't want their organs to be used after death.

Presently, no state has a 'presumed consent' law.  Legislators in states like Colorado, California, Delaware, New Jersey and New York have pushed for presumed consent; in fact, lawmakers in at least seven states have looked at presumed consent bills between 2011 and 2015. All attempts have failed.

So at present the UK and the US have the same law re organ donation.

All those body parts buried or burned which could help others to live....what a waste.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:26 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Presently, no state has a 'presumed consent' law.  Legislators in states like Colorado, California, Delaware, New Jersey and New York have pushed for presumed consent; in fact, lawmakers in at least seven states have looked at presumed consent bills between 2011 and 2015. All attempts have failed.

So at present the UK and the US have the same law re organ donation.

All those body parts buried or burned which could help others to live....what a waste.

At least as far as presumed consent is concerned. The way I look it it, you are helping another AND allowing your organs to live longer. The recipient is actually doing your organs a favor by hosting them for a while more.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:29 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

So at present the UK and the US have the same law re organ donation.

All those body parts buried or burned which could help others to live....what a waste.

At least as far as presumed consent is concerned.  The way I look it it, you are helping another AND allowing your organs to live longer.  The recipient is actually doing your organs a favor by hosting them for a while more.

I doubt your organs would appreciate it. Shocked

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:33 pm

Past a certain age...(and I'm sure that would be 99% of posters here) the organs probably wouldn't get further than a students scalpel to be dissected....its a romantic notion to think that your own organs could be used inside someone else, but long term every little helps.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by eddie on Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:58 pm

Syl wrote:Past a certain age...(and I'm sure that would be 99% of posters here) the organs probably wouldn't get further than a students scalpel to be dissected....its a romantic notion to think that your own organs could be used inside someone else, but long term every little helps.

I'd like to donate my whole body to medical science. I quite like the idea of handsome doctors "exclaiming" over my body.... Cool

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by magica on Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:58 pm

[quote="Syl"]Past a certain age...(and I'm sure that would be 99% of posters here) the organs probably wouldn't get further than a students scalpel to be dissected....its a romantic notion to think that your own organs could be used inside someone else, but long term every little helps.[/quote]

Speak for yourself Suspect
lol!

I think if anything I've got can help someone live, they're welcome to it. Can't take your body with you.


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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:04 pm

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:Past a certain age...(and I'm sure that would be 99% of posters here) the organs probably wouldn't get further than a students scalpel to be dissected....its a romantic notion to think that your own organs could be used inside someone else, but long term every little helps.

I'd like to donate my whole body to medical science. I quite like the idea of handsome doctors "exclaiming" over my body.... Cool

I read a book once (forgot the title) and the main characters were students in a dissecting lab. They named all the corpses and got quite attached to them as they dissected bits and pieces of their bodies....though they were also quite critical of fat or ugly corpses.
Apparently. unless the face is being disected its covered, to give the dead person some respect.....not sure if that's 100% true though.

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Syl on Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:07 pm

magica wrote:[quote="Syl"]Past a certain age...(and I'm sure that would be 99% of posters here) the organs probably wouldn't get further than a students scalpel to be dissected....its a romantic notion to think that your own organs could be used inside someone else, but long term every little helps.

Speak for yourself Suspect
lol!

I think if anything I've got can help someone live, they're welcome to it. Can't take your body with you.


[/quote]

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Re: Opt out or opt in?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:16 pm

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:Past a certain age...(and I'm sure that would be 99% of posters here) the organs probably wouldn't get further than a students scalpel to be dissected....its a romantic notion to think that your own organs could be used inside someone else, but long term every little helps.

I'd like to donate my whole body to medical science. I quite like the idea of handsome doctors "exclaiming" over my body.... Cool

Shocked EXHIBITIONIST!

Were you the one we saw streaking at Wimbledon?


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