Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

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Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Angry Andy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:19 am

Now reported that more are leaving than joining. Foreign nurses are quitting in record numbers too.
Is it all down to 12 hour shifts and frozen pay, whilst the Tories voted to continue with austerity  and at the same time enjoy their 13% rises in the previous two years?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/more-nurses-and-midwives-leaving-uk-profession-than-joining-figures-reveal

No doubt Didge and Nicko will say "sack 'em all as they are useless skiving wastrels". 

Which would be a bit hypocritical coming from people spending up to 18 hours a day trolling this forum.

The NHS has a real and present retention problem, aggravated by a recruitment shortage. 
 Who ARE going to staff the A&E , wards, childrens units, ďiabetic clinics, heart units, cancer units, geriatric units? G fucking 4S?


Last edited by Angry Andy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:42 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by nicko on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:22 am

Point 1, I don't more than an hour on here spread over around 10 hours.
Point 2, your a geranium !!
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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Angry Andy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:28 am

Deflection Nicko.
Typical rw response, deflect, dont answer tbe question. Straight out of Teresa May's script book.
 Who will look after you when your senilty overtakes you and you loses cognitive skills?

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:39 am

Well the first point I noticed was this and is the same problem with Uk doctors trained.

Thorin wrote:In 2016/17, 29,434 UK nurses and midwives left the register, up from 19,818 in 2012/13, and 45% more UK registrants left than joined last year.


That as they are not tied to contracts that keep them in hospitals for at least 10 years/ They bugger off abroad for better pay or private companies in the Uk. Like the ones who run NHS111. So it would not matter if nurses were given 20% pay rises, they would still be lured away abroad and to private companies when they are fully trained.

I mean out of the 29,000 who have left over 4,000 went to Australia alone. The survey admits half of those who have left have retired. Thus there is a major problem also then recruiting and training staff. What with Brexit, this has had an effect also. Where many Nurses have retired and there has been a big decrease in EU migrants coming since Brexit. Of course we have to factor. Pay and benefits, but again this is where I argue over how I do not think nurses are value for money for what they now do in hospitals. When again they are more like Admin/glorified carers.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by HoratioTarr on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:51 am

One of the reasons that nurses are short in the UK is the change in training specs. You need a uni degree. Years ago, anyone could join, and you did your training as you went along so long as you passed the interview and written test. And years ago when this was in place, there was nothing inferior about nurses, they trained just as well and worked just as hard and were just as competent.

Financial hardship is the main reason nursing students drop out, and the full time demands of the course make it very difficult for them to earn extra money while training. So, it's most likely student nurses who drop out rather than those on full pay which is roughly 28k upwards. So, the NHS places for nursing students is limited and that means many are simply turned away.

Perhaps if the NHS stopped pandering to health tourism, that money might go towards the student nurses. And if they stopped spending thousands on foreign locums, that too might go towards funding UK nurses. It's the nursing agencies that are also bleeding the NHS dry.

57 thousand applied to nurse last year. 37 thousand were rejected. Meanwhile, the number of foreign nurses registering to work in Britain rose by one third, as did the amount spent on agency nurses – reaching a record £3.3 billion.

The businessmen running the agencies are earning up to £950,000 a year and living expensive lifestyles in properties worth millions of pounds, prompting warnings last night that the NHS needed “to get a grip”.
The chairman of one firm, which supplies both the NHS and the private sector, lives in a £9.5 million house in central London and drives an Aston Martin DB9 sports car.

Official figures show that NHS spending on temporary workers has reached a record £3.3 billion high, and “catastrophic” levels of debt are being blamed on last year’s rise in agency bills.
Simon Stevens, the NHS England chief executive, has promised to tackle the high cost of agency spending. He told the Andrew Marr Show on BBC One: “We will have to clamp down on some of these staffing agencies, who are frankly ripping off the NHS.”

Madness.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11642267/How-nursing-agencies-making-billions-are-bleeding-the-NHS-dry.html

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by sassy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:17 pm




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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Angry Andy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:51 pm

The nursing crisis, and it is a crisis, is not as simole as paying more, or releasing undertrained carers into high dependency units as Thorin seems to imply would solve the  rhe problŕm.
As nedical advancements increases , so does the technical expertise of nurses need to follow.
I see it first hand at my daughter's diabetic clinic, rwl comolex stuff that lay carers wouldn't  have a clue about.
My solution.
More pay. Would reduce the drain of nurses leaving.
Reduced univerisity fees., refundable after 5/10  years of nursing service.
More nurses.
Thst would allow 8 hour shifts rather than killer 12 hours.
Dont let Thorin bullshit you. 12 hour nights are bloody horrible despite what he says. They seriously fuck your life and health up.


Last edited by Angry Andy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:06 pm

I see Andy must be using some special glasses as he seems to be reading nothing I have said.
Again Andy understands very little what is required of Nurses in hospitals and the fact is they need not be as qualified as they are required to be in many aspects of roles within the Hospital. Based again with many they are more doing admin, observations and carers. A radical shake up is needed and a look at whether the qualifications are too extensive now for the role required. Or we lower the number of nurses, maintaining the high standard qualification and have more health care assistants, who are better trained with more knowledge and better pay.

Not only that, I could hardly comprehend the above by andy

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by nicko on Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:11 pm

He's pissed, [again].
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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by sassy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:09 pm

nicko wrote:He's pissed, [again].

No, he's on his phone which is more difficult to post from, the only person who gets obviously pissed it Dodge, which you just jump in with shit when you think you can get away with it. One of lifes 'hangers on the coat tails of others'.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:10 pm

sassy wrote:
nicko wrote:He's pissed, [again].

No, he's on his phone which is more difficult to post from, the only person who gets obviously pissed it Dodge, which you just jump in with shit when you think you can get away with it.   One of lifes 'hangers on the coat tails of others'.


How to derail a thread in 3 seconds by sassy.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:11 pm

Thorin wrote:I see Andy must be using some special glasses as he seems to be reading nothing I have said.
Again Andy understands very little what is required of Nurses in hospitals and the fact is they need not be as qualified as they are required to be in many aspects of roles within the Hospital. Based again with many they are more doing admin, observations and carers. A radical shake up is needed and a look at whether the qualifications are too extensive now for the role required. Or we lower the number of nurses, maintaining the high standard qualification and have more health care assistants, who are better trained with more knowledge and better pay.

Not only that, I could hardly comprehend the above by andy


To get the debate back on track.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by sassy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:13 pm

Thorin wrote:
sassy wrote:

No, he's on his phone which is more difficult to post from, the only person who gets obviously pissed it Dodge, which you just jump in with shit when you think you can get away with it.   One of lifes 'hangers on the coat tails of others'.


How to derail a thread in 3 seconds by sassy.

YOU derailed the thread with comments about Andy, who make a very good point, even if it was messed up by trying to post from a phone. But of course it would take intelligence to see that, and you have none. Brains of a parsnip and intellect of a stuffed pigeon.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:15 pm

Angry Andy wrote:Now reported that more are leaving than joining. Foreign nurses are quitting in record numbers too.
Is it all down to 12 hour shifts and frozen pay, whilst the Tories voted to continue with austerity  and at the same time enjoy their 13% rises in the previous two years?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/more-nurses-and-midwives-leaving-uk-profession-than-joining-figures-reveal

No doubt Didge and Nicko will say "sack 'em all as they are useless skiving wastrels". 

Which would be a bit hypocritical coming from people spending up to 18 hours a day trolling this forum.

The NHS has a real and present retention problem, aggravated by a recruitment shortage. 
 Who ARE going to staff the A&E , wards, childrens units, ďiabetic clinics, heart units, cancer units, geriatric units? G fucking 4S?


First comment by Andy, making up lies about myself and Nicko

I guess sassy must have missed this

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:16 pm

Thorin wrote:Well the first point I noticed was this and is the same problem with Uk doctors trained.

Thorin wrote:In 2016/17, 29,434 UK nurses and midwives left the register, up from 19,818 in 2012/13, and 45% more UK registrants left than joined last year.


That as they are not tied to contracts that keep them in hospitals for at least 10 years/ They bugger off abroad for better pay or private companies in the Uk. Like the ones who run NHS111. So it would not matter if nurses were given 20% pay rises, they would still be lured away abroad and to private companies when they are fully trained.

I mean out of the 29,000 who have left over 4,000 went to Australia alone. The survey admits half of those who have left have retired. Thus there is a major problem also then recruiting and training staff. What with Brexit, this has had an effect also. Where many Nurses have retired and there has been a big decrease in EU migrants coming since Brexit. Of course we have to factor. Pay and benefits, but again this is where I argue over how I do not think nurses are value for money for what they now do in hospitals. When again they are more like Admin/glorified carers.


My first post, which has nothing about Andy even though he invented lies about me

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:16 pm

Angry Andy wrote:The nursing crisis, and it is a crisis, is not as simole as paying more, or releasing undertrained carers into high dependency units as Thorin seems to imply would solve the  rhe problŕm.
As nedical advancements increases , so does the technical expertise of nurses need to follow.
I see it first hand at my daughter's diabetic clinic, rwl comolex stuff that lay carers wouldn't  have a clue about.
My solution.
More pay. Would reduce the drain of nurses leaving.
Reduced univerisity fees., refundable after 5/10  years of nursing service.
More nurses.
Thst would allow 8 hour shifts rather than killer 12 hours.
Dont let Thorin bullshit you. 12 hour nights are bloody horrible despite what he says. They seriously fuck your life and health up.


Third post by Andy where again he makes up lies about me

Clearly sassy needs to go to specsavers

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by sassy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:17 pm

Thorin wrote:
Angry Andy wrote:The nursing crisis, and it is a crisis, is not as simole as paying more, or releasing undertrained carers into high dependency units as Thorin seems to imply would solve the  rhe problŕm.
As nedical advancements increases , so does the technical expertise of nurses need to follow.
I see it first hand at my daughter's diabetic clinic, rwl comolex stuff that lay carers wouldn't  have a clue about.
My solution.
More pay. Would reduce the drain of nurses leaving.
Reduced univerisity fees., refundable after 5/10  years of nursing service.
More nurses.
Thst would allow 8 hour shifts rather than killer 12 hours.
Dont let Thorin bullshit you. 12 hour nights are bloody horrible despite what he says. They seriously fuck your life and health up.


Third post by Andy where again he makes up lies about me

Clearly sassy needs to go to specsavers

Saying you are bullshitting is fact, as was the rest of his post.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:22 pm

Thorin wrote:I see Andy must be using some special glasses as he seems to be reading nothing I have said.
Again Andy understands very little what is required of Nurses in hospitals and the fact is they need not be as qualified as they are required to be in many aspects of roles within the Hospital. Based again with many they are more doing admin, observations and carers. A radical shake up is needed and a look at whether the qualifications are too extensive now for the role required. Or we lower the number of nurses, maintaining the high standard qualification and have more health care assistants, who are better trained with more knowledge and better pay.

Not only that, I could hardly comprehend the above by andy


To get the debate back on track.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by eddie on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:38 pm

Interesting as I've literally just this minute come from a casual friend's house (our daughters are playmates) and she's a midwife. We have just been discussing this and she told me herself that a lot of her colleagues have been leaving. She's on maternity leave currently and dreading going back as they're so short staffed.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by eddie on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:40 pm

sassy wrote:
Thorin wrote:
sassy wrote:

No, he's on his phone which is more difficult to post from, the only person who gets obviously pissed it Dodge, which you just jump in with shit when you think you can get away with it.   One of lifes 'hangers on the coat tails of others'.


How to derail a thread in 3 seconds by sassy.

YOU derailed the thread with comments about Andy, who make a very good point, even if it was messed up by trying to post from a phone.   But of course it would take intelligence to see that, and you have none.   Brains of a parsnip and intellect of a stuffed pigeon.

To be fair Andy made a comment (unexessarily so) about Didge and nicko in his opening post. If you're going to bleat then bleat fairly and without bias.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:55 pm

What does "unexessarily" mean?

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by eddie on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:57 pm

Original Quill wrote:What does "unexessarily" mean?

When your ex serves no purpose and is no longer necessary. Razz

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:03 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:What does "unexessarily" mean?

When your ex serves no purpose and is no longer necessary. Razz

Oh my...poor andy. Mad

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:01 pm

eddie wrote:Interesting as I've literally just this minute come from a casual friend's house (our daughters are playmates) and she's a midwife. We have just been discussing this and she told me herself that a lot of her colleagues have been leaving. She's on maternity leave currently and dreading going back as they're so short staffed.


So in this case, its more based on staffing levels, which i agree can be stressful.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by nicko on Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:03 pm

Hey sassy, when are you going to apologise to me, you made enough fuss about me not apologising to you, It's different when your in the wrong isn't it?

Don't bother answering, i'm not remotely interested in your one sided views. End of.
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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by sassy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:44 pm

Let's put it this way Nicko, I had a straight argument with you, about what YOU did, because I happen to know quite a lot about Vietnam, I helped write a book about it many years ago, and I know what was done by Western forces and how disgusting it was. That's a straight opinion, and I don't beat around the bush when I comes to the horrors that have been done by the West to other countries. That was between you and me and you had every right to fight your corner about it, just as I had every right to tell you what I thought about it.

However, I would not have had the right to disparage your wife/partner/mother/father etc etc and that's what you did, which is why I demand an apology or will forever class you as a coward, and why I have not need to apologise to you.

Just as a little lesson about the people you were propping up in Vietnam, have a read of this, if you can concentrate long enough:


South Vietnam

south vietnam
The 1963 self-immolation of Buddhist monk Thich Quang Duc.

The Geneva Accords were finalised in late July 1954. In theory, North and South Vietnam were to exist for two years as temporary transitional states. In reality, both had already begun to develop and consolidate into separate national entities. As this process unfolded the divisions between North and South Vietnam widened, reducing the likelihood of free national elections or successful reunification. The new rulers of South Vietnam were backed by the United States and their Western allies. These men, epitomised by the Christian prime minister Ngo Dinh Diem, presented themselves as aspiring democrats and capitalists. After fighting to remove the shackles of French colonialism, they claimed to desire a free and independent South Vietnam based on Western political and economic values. What unfolded under their leadership, however, was neither democratic or beneficial to most South Vietnamese people.

Ngo Dinh Diem became the prime minister of South Vietnam in 1954, thanks largely to American manipulation. From the outset Ngo faced considerable challenges from criminals and political opponents, particularly communist subversives still active in the southern provinces. Thousands of Viet Minh agents and guerrilla soldiers, most acting on orders from Hanoi, ignored the migration amnesty of 1954-55 and remained underground in South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh, who doubted the 1956 elections would take place, described these agents as his “insurance”. Opposition to Ngo Dinh Diem could also be found in the military. In November 1954 a clique of officers, trained by and loyal to the French, attempted to remove Diem and install a Francophile military junta. Their coup was thwarted by Diem, with the help of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). The continuation of the opium trade, another legacy of French colonialism, also encouraged warlords, organised crime and gangsterism.

The newly appointed Diem was determined to deal with all of these problems. When he assumed power, however, South Vietnam was bankrupt and without the organs of government. During their withdrawal from Indochina the French had dismantled the apparatus of colonial government. In some cases entire buildings and departments had been cleared, their contents packed and shipped back to France, all in the space of a few months. The French also stripped South Vietnam of important resources, from military equipment down to telephones and typewriters. By late 1955 there was almost no army, no police force and very little functioning bureaucracy. Not only did Diem have to persuade the South Vietnamese that he was charge, he also had to construct a working system of government.

Without an established bureaucracy or political network, Diem relied on American advisors – and on his own family. His most prominent relatives were his four brothers – Ngo Dinh Nhu, Ngo Dinh Thuc, Ngo Dinh Can and Ngo Dinh Luyen – and one of his sisters-in-law, Tran Le Xuan (later known in the West as Madame Nhu). Diem gave his family members, friends and political allies important leadership positions in the government, military, business and Vietnam’s Catholic church. His closest confidante was his brother, Ngo Dinh Nhu, an opium-addicted neo-Nazi who lived alongside Diem in the presidential mansion. Nhu oversaw the creation and organisation of the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN, formed in October 1955) while also running his own private armies and anti-communist ‘death squads’. In late 1954 Nhu attempted to provide political legitimacy for his brother’s regime by forming the Can Lao, a South Vietnamese party that Nhu hoped would grow to rival Ho Chi Minh’s Lao Dong. Can Lao never inspired the people or became a popular movement, however, and remained relatively small. Membership was only open to pro-Diem Catholics from the middle and upper classes. In reality, Can Lao was just a political device to justify Diem’s rule.

By 1956 Diem’s regime had taken clearer form. Though the South Vietnamese government presented itself to the world as a developing democracy, it was anti-democratic, autocratic, corrupt and nepotistic. There was a National Assembly that claimed to be representative, though rigged elections meant it was nothing of the kind. The Assembly was filled with Diem’s acolytes and did little more than rubber stamp Diem’s own policies. Freedom of the press was curtailed; writing or protesting against the government could end in a prison sentence, or worse. The regime was also strong enough to back Diem’s anti-communist rhetoric with firm action. Under Nhu’s supervision, private armies launched campaigns to locate, arrest and dispose of suspected communists and sympathisers in South Vietnam. Thousands were rounded up, deported, tortured, thrown in prison or executed. According to some sources, more South Vietnamese were killed during Diem’s four year anti-communist purge than during the First Indochina War of 1946-54. In May 1959 Diem issued the notorious Law 10/59. This decree empowered military tribunals to impose a death sentence on anyone belonging to the Viet Minh, Lao Dong or any other communist organisation:

“Article 1
The sentence of death, and confiscation of the whole or part of his property, will be imposed on whoever commits or attempts to commit one of the following crimes with the aim of sabotage, or upon infringing upon the security of the State, or injuring the lives or property of the people:
i. Deliberate murder, food poisoning, or kidnapping.
ii. Destruction, or total or partial damaging, of … objects by means of explosives, fire, or other means
Article 3
Whoever belongs to an organisation designed to help to prepare or to perpetuate crimes enumerated in Article 1, or takes pledges to do so, will be subject to the same sentences.”

The Diem regime also embarked on a program of social reorganisation, which it hoped would disrupt communist influence. In 1959 the Saigon government introduced the Rural Community Development Program, or ‘Agrovilles’ (khu tru mat). It was effectively a program of mass resettlement: peasants in small villages or isolated areas were forced to relocate to populated areas under government control. It had some similarities to Soviet farm collectivisation, though its objectives were more political than economic. By the early 1960s there were more than two dozen Agrovilles in South Vietnam. Each contained several thousand peasants, most driven there at the point of a gun, from villages which had previously contained just a few families. The Agroville resettlements caused enormous social and economic disruption. Families were separated, shifted from familiar territory and forced to abandon important spiritual sites, such as temples and ancestral graves. Most of these Agrovilles were too small for everyone to be given plots of land or employed as farmers, meaning there was little or no work.

In 1961 the ‘Agroville’ scheme was transformed into ‘strategic hamlets’ (ap chien luoc). This initiative was suggested to Diem by American advisors and developed largely by the CIA. The strategic hamlets were intended to be a network of self sustaining communities, strong enough to withstand communist infiltration and attack. Peasants would be moved into these large rural settlements; they would be compensated for this relocation and allocated plots of land. Each strategic hamlet would be provided with a defendable perimeter, small arms and militia training; it would be outfitted with a radio or telephone connection to make contact with the government, ARVN and nearby hamlets. But like the Agrovilles, the strategic hamlets program failed, mainly because it was poorly implemented. Despite a barrage of CIA-produced propaganda, most peasants did not wish to relocate. Much of the money set aside for compensation ended up in the pockets of corrupt government officials – including Diem’s own family – rather than being distributed to the peasants. By late 1963 the South Vietnamese government claimed to have completed 8,600 strategic hamlets, however a subsequent American investigation found that four fifths of these were incomplete. American funding dried up and the program soon faded away. Many strategic hamlets were abandoned, stripped of whatever was useful and left to rot.

Despite its failures and rampant corruption the Diem government did make some progress in industrialising the economy. South Vietnam’s status as a developing nation recovering from war and colonialism received extensive media coverage in the West. This prompted many Western companies to assist Saigon with trade and investment. In 1957 Diem announced a five-year economic plan and called for foreign loans and domestic investment. Those who invested in the South Vietnamese economy, particularly its export industries, were promised government guarantees and concessions, such as lower tax rates and land rents. Local companies were subsidised and locally produced goods were protected with tariffs. Meanwhile, the government and its agencies imported much needed equipment: factory and farm machinery, motor vehicles and raw materials such as steel and ore. South Vietnam’s agricultural sector also recovered. Rice production boomed, growing from 70,000 tons per annum (1955) to 340,000 tons (1960). Predictably, Diem’s main trading partner during this period was the United States. Between 1954 and 1960 the US government pumped around $US1.2 billion into South Vietnam, about three quarters of which was used to expand and bolster the military. Washington also offered incentives to American companies willing to trade with South Vietnam.
“[US ambassador to South Vietnam] Henry Cabot Lodge arrived in Saigon on August 22nd 1963 [and] delivered his own speech [to Diem]. “I want you to be successful. I want to be useful to you. I don’t expect you to be a ‘yes man’. I realise that you must never appear a puppet of the United States.” Nonetheless, he insisted that Diem had to face the fact American public opinion had turned against him. The United States, Lodge asserted, ‘favours religious toleration’, and Diem’s policies were ‘threatening American support of Vietnam’. Diem had to set his house in order, and that meant removing his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu, silencing Madame Nhu, punishing those responsible for the May massacre in Hue, and conciliating the Buddhists. Washington was no longer prepared to support the Diem regime unconditionally.”

The relative success of Diem’s economic program enabled many to overlook the brutality and excesses of his regime. It was Diem’s persecution of another group – South Vietnam’s Buddhists – which made headlines around the world and spelled the beginning of the end for his regime. More than three quarters of the South Vietnamese population was Buddhist, however it was minority Catholics who benefited most under Diem’s regime. Government officials, high ranking military officers, business owners and landlords in receipt of government assistance were overwhelmingly Catholic. Many even converted to Catholicism just to win favour with the regime. In May 1963, on the eve of Vesak – a celebration of Buddha’s birthday – Diem issued a decree banning the display of religious flags in public. Thousands of Buddhists in Hue rioted in response; the demonstration was brutally dispersed by government forces and eight people were killed. Vietnamese Buddhists protested their treatment with a series of rallies, sit ins and hunger strikes. In June, Diem’s forces dealt with one protest by using tear gas and pouring battery acid on the heads of seated Buddhists. In July, a group of American journalists covering Buddhist protests were involved in a fistfight with a group of Diem’s secret police.

The most striking incident occurred in Saigon on June 11th. In the middle of a busy street, a Buddhist monk named Thich Quang Duc calmly sat down and delivered a short speech, then had a colleague douse him in gasoline. Duc then set himself alight and sat motionless as the flames engulfed his body. Images and footage of Duc’s suicide were circulated worldwide. His self immolation drew attention to the Buddhist plight in South Vietnam and the corruption and inherent brutality of Diem’s regime. Even this did not halt Diem’s anti-Buddhist program. In August, shortly before a major Buddhist protest rally in Saigon, Diem declared martial law in the city. He authorised ARVN forces to raid Saigon’s Buddhist pagodas and arrest suspected “communist sympathisers”. Hundreds of Buddhists were arrested and many vanished, probably murdered. Thousands more fled and their pagodas were desecrated by Diem’s troops. In Washington, the situation in South Vietnam was now considered untenable. Diem seemed almost uncontrollable and his regime was a constant source of bad news and negative publicity. In late August, just days after the anti-Buddhist raids, president John F. Kennedy asked the State Department to investigate the options for ‘regime change’ in South Vietnam.

1. Between 1954 and 1963 South Vietnam was a nominal democratic republic, propped up by American political and financial support. In reality there was little democratic about its government.
2. South Vietnam’s leader, Ngo Dinh Diem, claimed to head a democratic government. In reality Diem was a petty dictator, assisted by family members, Catholic acolytes and US advisors.
3. During his rule Ngo Dinh Diem authorised brutal campaigns against his political enemies, particularly suspected communists (1955-59) and Vietnam’s Buddhist monks (1963).
4. Diem’s social program included the failed ‘Agroville’ and ‘strategic hamlet’ resettlement programs. His economic reforms, helped by foreign trade, were more successful.
5. The United States supported Diem and his government with advisors and money, however by August 1963 Diem was a liability and Washington began investigating ways to remove him.

http://alphahistory.com/vietnamwar/south-vietnam/


That's what you were killing people for, and I and thousands of other thought it was dispicable and weren't fooled by what establishment put out, and when television pictures of what was really happening were flashed on British and American televisions, finally they had to stop it.

TV forever changed the way Americans viewed war
As casualties rose, the country increasingly turned against the war. The official line was that Americans were winning in Vietnam, but the evening news told a different story.
"What Vietnam did to America via television was introduce us to a new kind of America," said author Lawrence Wright. "One that was not pure, one that committed the same kinds of atrocities that are always committed in war, but we had never allowed ourselves to see them."
Reporter Morley Safer recalled the shock of witnessing Marines burn down 150 houses on the outskirts of the village of Cam Ne. An officer told the newsman that he had been ordered to level the area. Three women were wounded in the attack, one baby was killed, and four people were taken prisoner.
Safer asked a soldier if he had regrets about leaving people homeless, and the soldier replied, "You can't expect to do your job and feel pity for these people."
Another soldier told Safer, "I think it's sad in a way, but I don't think there's any other way you can get around it in this kind of a war."
Americans back home were stunned when the CBS report about the Cam Ne village hit the news.
After the broadcast, Johnson reportedly called then-CBS president, Frank Stanton, and said, "Frank, this is your President, your boys just s--t on the flag of the United States."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/20/us/vietnam-war-five-things/index.html

That is why I said you were being used in Vietnam to fight a corrupt war on people you had no idea why you were killing.

That's my argument with you, and that's my right to state it, BUT IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO DISPARAGE MY OH and if you were man enough, you'd apologise.


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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:51 pm

Like I said sassy does not know history she has to use others to speak for herself

So I will ask a simple question for Sassy.

No matter the political situation and the country divided into two nations and the South Vietnamese Government being corrupt.

Does that then justify the north invading and the Vietcong carry out attacks on civillians?

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by HoratioTarr on Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:27 am

Angry Andy wrote:The nursing crisis, and it is a crisis, is not as simole as paying more, or releasing undertrained carers into high dependency units as Thorin seems to imply would solve the  rhe problŕm.
As nedical advancements increases , so does the technical expertise of nurses need to follow.
I see it first hand at my daughter's diabetic clinic, rwl comolex stuff that lay carers wouldn't  have a clue about.
My solution.
More pay. Would reduce the drain of nurses leaving.
Reduced univerisity fees., refundable after 5/10  years of nursing service.
More nurses.
Thst would allow 8 hour shifts rather than killer 12 hours.
Dont let Thorin bullshit you. 12 hour nights are bloody horrible despite what he says. They seriously fuck your life and health up.

For once I agree with you regarding 12 hour night shifts. My ex was a policeman. He always said the night shifts would eventually kill him as his shifts were often overtime and 10 to 12 hours. He would be mentally and physically exhausted after a week of nights. The other shifts, early and lates, he could cope with.
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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by nicko on Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:55 am

Sassy, I couldn't bother to read your long c@p, all I know is the Political view you'v put forward was no interest to my Squad and I.

We were sent there to fight and fight we did, we did not fight for [Uncle Sam] we fought to keep our mates alive. Fuck America.
AS FOR Ireland, I APOLOGISE IF I UPSET YOU, but you ,or your Husband did not answer my question, witch regiment took the most casualties. IT WAS NOT THE BLACK watch, it was the Para's. You see all wars as political, you are probly right, but I see it as just black and white. Goodies and Badies, and whatever you say, I was a goody !
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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by Miffs2 on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:20 am

@ Sassy
What was the book you helped write?
I would like to have a look at that.
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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by sassy on Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:33 am

nicko wrote:Sassy,   I couldn't bother to read your  long c@p,    all I know is the Political view you'v put forward was no interest to my Squad and I.

We were sent there to fight and fight we did, we did not fight for [Uncle Sam]  we fought to keep our mates alive.     Fuck America.
AS FOR Ireland, I APOLOGISE IF I UPSET YOU,   but you ,or your Husband did not answer my question,  witch regiment took the most casualties. IT WAS NOT THE BLACK watch, it was the Para's.    You see all wars as political,   you are probly right,   but I see it as just black and white.  Goodies and Badies, and whatever you say,  I was a goody !


Thank you for being big enough to apologise about my OH and I appreciate that.  I know the Black Watch didn't lose as many as the Paras, but that wasn't really the point was it.   As for Vietnam, we will never agree on that.   I worked for the NZAF in Singapore when No41 Squadron was assisting, if only with supplies.  The Commanding Officer of the NZAF, who I worked for, didn't approve of the whole thing, but obviously couldn't say so, and I helped him do all the research for a book he wrote about Australia and New Zealand getting dragged in.   Obviously, he couldn't publish it before he retired, but sent me a copy when he did so with a lovely note thanking me for my hep.   When I came home, after what I had learnt, I joined the Anti Vietnam War marches, because it was the only thing we could do to get it stopped and those marches and the information on television opening people's eyes, eventually worked.    The South was a corrupt as hell, even the Buddhists rebelled against them, and the monk setting himself alight in public was just about the final straw.  

That's why I say you were used.   You were told you were one of the 'goodies' and of course you had to protect your mates and that's what they relied on.   They didn't want you to look into the politics, they didn't want you to know what was really going on, those that did refused to serve, so on that we will never agree.

That being said, I do appreciate you retracting about my OH.   People on here are fair game, their families aren't.

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by nicko on Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:07 pm

Sassy, I did not want to go to Nam, I no say in it. The Australian Regiment, of witch I was part were sent. I was nineteen and as green as grass. AS I said, we did not know the political wrangling that was going on, We were told that the enemy were communists and were trying to take over South Vietnam in the most brutal way by killing and torturing the poor people of the South. I saw the results of this first hand and was filled with hatred that they would do this to people who were just trying to live. Those who paraded with their placards nice and safe in thin most e west had no idea what was going on in the jungle. Men killing and being killed in the most horrible way imaginable. It was not my or my mens fault this was happening, I killed to stay alive, do you blame me for that?
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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:15 pm

Angry Andy wrote:
Now reported that more are leaving than joining. Foreign nurses are quitting in record numbers too.
Is it all down to 12 hour shifts and frozen pay, whilst the Tories voted to continue with austerity  and at the same time enjoy their 13% rises in the previous two years?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/more-nurses-and-midwives-leaving-uk-profession-than-joining-figures-reveal
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Idea

Re: the OP...

The British government "called the tune" with their lack of increases in pay rates, staffing levels and support for doctors in hospitals, nurses, ambo's, firies and police..

Now they are "paying the piper" with the current problems that they created.

All so they can give more corporate tax breaks to their millionaire mates..

The same thing has been happening in regional Australia for several years now..

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Re: Nurses and midwives leaving in droves.

Post by sassy on Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:54 pm

nicko wrote:Sassy, I did not want to go to Nam,   I no say in it.  The Australian Regiment, of witch I was part were sent.   I was nineteen and as green as grass.  AS I said, we did not know the political wrangling that was going on, We were told that the enemy were communists and were trying to take over South Vietnam in the most brutal way by killing and torturing the poor people of the South.   I saw the results of this first hand and was filled with hatred that they would do this to people who were just trying to live.   Those who paraded with their placards nice and safe in thin  most e west had no idea what was going on in the jungle.  Men killing and being killed in the most horrible way imaginable.   It was not my or my mens fault this was happening, I killed to stay alive, do you blame me for that?  

I don't blame you, you were led by the nose and kept in the dark, luckily in later years people found out the truth and refused to go. Ever heard of Veterans Against Vietnam?


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