"Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

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"Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:22 am

First topic message reminder :




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63lICclWM-k

I could not stop laughing at how hypocritical this regressive Professor is.

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:13 am

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Your verification?  Here's the title:



First, we were talking about Berkeley, not "British universities".  But more importantly, why are you focusing in on lecturers.  And how does the writer even code left/right?

I'm not sure that Tocqueville even intended a statistical statement.  As I read him, he was talking more about who listens, than who speaks.  I mean, when the majority opinion pushes out the minority opinion, doesn't it do so by being listened to more, not by shouting louder?  If so, that's more about the audience then the lecturer.

No we are not just talking about Berkeley but all Universities in the US and Britain.

I just wanted to bring out that you've changed your data base.

Thorin wrote:Its important that we focus in also on lecturers, as there is a bias in teaching also, which is why we end up with more left wing students in Uni. It goes hand in hand, as seen by the stats that I have presented to you.
The reality is you will have a confirmation bias with many teachers.

"A bias in teaching also?" How does that get at the concept of 'majority'? If you are going to make a statistical argument about a university community, best include the total population. Otherwise, your conclusions will be skewed from the beginning.

The more I get into this, the more convinced I am that you, again, resort to your old argument about policy left/right, not predominate assumptions. And this brings me back to the real point of Tocqueville: it's what gets listened to, not what is said. That you can't measure by statistics...statistics go by way of survey research.

Thorin wrote:The reality is we have seen a change from where the left were the champions of Free speech and now we see it is those on the right who champion Free speech.

You're mixing apples and oranges. The Tyranny of the Majority thesis speaks, not of policy matters such as parochial left/right, but of a predominate ideology or event. Now it is true that ideas tend to shift from right to left historically, but it's more general...as in: monarchy to liberal to socialist. Not: toll road, to sales tax, to the local mayor.

I don't think what Professor Neilson (or Tocqueville or Marcuse) was speaking of, is amenable to statistical argument insofar as there is no measure of such broad, general terms. Individual answers on a survey poll would not capture, say, the coming of the industrial revolution.

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:25 am

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:

No we are not just talking about Berkeley but all Universities in the US and Britain.

I just wanted to bring out that you've changed your data base.

Thorin wrote:No you did that Quill all by yourself

"A bias in teaching also?"  How does that get at the concept of 'majority'?  If you are going to make a statistical argument about a university community, best include the total population.  Otherwise, your conclusions will be skewed from the beginning.
Thorin wrote:Well you have heard of confirmation bias have you not?
What has the total population got to do with Universities, which has been the core of this debate?
If we look at the rest of the population then the same rules apply on Free speech. Now no matter whether left or right, anyone trying to shut down free speech is wrong

The more I get into this, the more convinced I am that you, again, resort to your old argument about policy left/right, not predominate assumptions.  And this brings me back to the real point of Tocqueville: it's what gets listened to, not what is said.  That you can't measure by statistics...statistics go by way of survey research.

Thorin wrote:But the reality is we see more free speech being shut down by those on the left and as seen here we see a Leftist Professor calling for suppression of Free speech and its you ignoring this fact. Just look again at the amount of speakers cancelled and suppressed just within Universities a place which should be open to all issues and ideas

I don't think what Professor Neilson (or Tocqueville or Marcuse) was speaking of, is amenable to statistical argument insofar as there is no measure of such broad, general terms.  Individual answers on a survey poll would not capture, say, the coming of the industrial revolution.

The rest is just a regurgitation of what you have repeatedly said
The facts is this, that where we see platforms for where there should be free speech in places like universities, this is being suppressed by the left. The left make up the majority of teachers and students and thus we have the Tyranny of the majority on the left. In these sphere of where normally Free speech should happen. Where people fought for this free speech. You dont want to accept this, now can you show other areas of where Free speech is being suppressed? I can, within the media, for example, in the fear they may offend some people. Case in point, the satire in regards to Islam.

You have not presented other spheres outside of Universities to even make a point population wise.

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:29 am

Anyway, I am off to bed, i hope to see you present some other aspects of free speech within society, other than Universities to make your case Quill

Oh and have a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_bias_in_academia

Good luck and goodnight

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:54 am

Thorin wrote:The rest is just a regurgitation of what you have repeatedly said.

Perhaps, but I think I'm right.

Thorin wrote:The facts is this, that where we see platforms for where there should be free speech in places like universities, this is being suppressed by the left.

You see?  That's not what is being talked about by Professor Neilson, nor Tocqueville or Marcuse.  They are talking about much grander, ideological matters such as (to borrow an American example) slavery.

In addition, you haven't operationalized your concepts of left and/or right, nor do you otherwise relate your overall thesis of liberal-conservative  to the theory.  I mean, a study of lecturers is not a proper sounding of opinion on university campuses.

I do agree that the teaching staff of (liberal) universities do tend to be leftish, but there are many, many rightish faculty in the community as well. It's by no means a foregone conclusion.

But the students...no. Remember, they grow up to become the conservative Congressmen, Senators, lawyers and (OMG) physicians. The hard scientists tend to be rightish, as do the engineers and economists.

I think what you are touching upon is my theory that the more left someone is, the more he or she thinks about things (liberals are problem-solvers, conservatives are merely self-interested). In a university, you have lots of thinking about things, and so the result is more left wing people. But the farther you drift from people problems, the more right wing they become. That explains why professors of engineering and physics can be quite conservative.

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:02 am

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:The rest is just a regurgitation of what you have repeatedly said.

Perhaps, but I think I'm right.

Thorin wrote:The facts is this, that where we see platforms for where there should be free speech in places like universities, this is being suppressed by the left.

You see?  That's not what is being talked about by Professor Neilson, nor Tocqueville or Marcuse.  They are talking about much grander, ideological matters such as (to borrow an American example) slavery.



So you never did what i asked of you and presented outside spheres where there is problems of free speech, of which I asked and just continued to regurgitate the same things you said

try again

The facts is this, that where we see platforms for where there should be free speech in places like universities, this is being suppressed by the left. The left make up the majority of teachers and students and thus we have the Tyranny of the majority on the left. In these sphere of where normally Free speech should happen. Where people fought for this free speech. You dont want to accept this, now can you show other areas of where Free speech is being suppressed? I can, within the media, for example, in the fear they may offend some people. Case in point, the satire in regards to Islam.

You have not presented other spheres outside of Universities to even make a point population wise.

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:08 pm

Thorin wrote:So you never did what i asked of you and presented outside spheres where there is problems of free speech, of which I asked and just continued to regurgitate the same things you said

Ha-ha…did you send in your retainer?  If not, no tickee, no laundry.  I’ve told you, we are not playing authoritarian games here.  You don't get to put words in another poster's mouth.

Truth is, all too easily you lose the linear focus of the argument.  It's necessary to bring you back.  For continuity’s sake, I’ll listen to you, and select what is necessary to address, throwing out the rest as excess fat and gristle.

Now return to the argument: What are “outside spheres”?

Maybe it’s time to take stock here.  Alexis de Tocqueville wrote a book called, Democracy in America.  It had a chapter in it called “Tyranny of the Majority”.  We are discussing that idea and his prompting of it.  It is the original sphere, not an outside sphere.

Tocqueville did not write about a university.  He was writing about a country—a whole culture: Democracy in America.  Now I’ve indulged your argument that the same phenomenon takes place place in microcosms such as universities, but it’s really a political theory…politics, as in whole nations.  You parse that idea, and speak of microcosms:

Thorin wrote:The facts is this, that where we see platforms for where there should be free speech in places like universities, this is being suppressed by the left. The left make up the majority of teachers and students and thus we have the Tyranny of the majority on the left. In these sphere of where normally Free speech should happen. Where people fought for this free speech. You dont want to accept this, now can you show other areas of where Free speech is being suppressed? I can, within the media, for example, in the fear they may offend some people. Case in point, the satire in regards to Islam.

You have not presented other spheres outside of Universities to even make a point population wise.

You need to return to basics.  The idea is Democracy in America, not democracy in a small, mid-western university.  First, a university as a microcosm is hardly representative of an entire nation.  With a university we are not talking about democracy in America, but something in a much smaller setting.  Remember, it’s a political theory, not a pedagogical theory.

Second, your assumptions about your microcosm are all wrong: you have no proof that “the left make up the majority of teachers and students.”  Without that fact, there is no basis for alleging a “tyranny of the majority on the left.”  So your entire construct of a microcosm is based upon false assumptions, not facts.

Third point: A university is not supposed to be run like a democracy.  Students don’t vote on administrative decisions.  The administrators do not run for their office.  A university was never set up to be run as a democracy.  It is an administrative institution, having as its mission, education.  It cannot be a microcosm of a democracy anywhere.

This is important because what you are arguing is that, because of the “tyranny”, a cabal of lefties caused the cancellation of RW speakers.  How?  The lefties didn’t vote; the administrators made the decision.  According to them, they made the decision to cancel the engagements because of financial reasons.  You have no proof to contradict that, so it remains as fact.

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:19 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:So you never did what i asked of you and presented outside spheres where there is problems of free speech, of which I asked and just continued to regurgitate the same things you said

Ha-ha…did you send in your retainer?  If not, no tickee, no laundry.  I’ve told you, we are not playing authoritarian games here.  You don't get to put words in another poster's mouth.
Thorin wrote:Sorry I think we need a translator as the above is pure gibberish.


Truth is, all too easily you lose the linear focus of the argument.  It's necessary to bring you back.  For continuity’s sake, I’ll listen to you, and select what is necessary to address, throwing out the rest as excess fat and gristle.
Thorin wrote:So nothing on the points, yet again speaking about me, yet again
Very dull.

Now return to the argument: What are “outside spheres”?
Thorin wrote:Well we have established within Universities there is a tyranny of the majority when it comes to who comes to speak or not. The rest of the world has no say in this. Again I gave you an example outside this with western media when they pander to fear. Case in point, any mockery of Islam.
So its up to you to show other spheres, when mine was based on the left being the tyranny of the majority in Universities with both students and teachers

Maybe it’s time to take stock here.  Alexis de Tocqueville wrote a book called, Democracy in America.  It had a chapter in it called “Tyranny of the Majority”.  We are discussing that idea and his prompting of it.  It is the original sphere, not an outside sphere.
Thorin wrote:Yeah you told me beffore
Next

Tocqueville did not write about a university.  He was writing about a country—a whole culture: Democracy in America.  Now I’ve indulged your argument that the same phenomenon takes place place in microcosms such as universities, but it’s really a political theory…politics, as in whole nations.  You parse that idea, and speak of microcosms:
Thorin wrote:But his views would fit into the sphere on Universities when its the students and teachers that invite and who can influence dis-inviting speakers.
What you are doing is trying to say how Tocqieville theory can be applied to and that it can only be applied tpo whole nations which of course is a complete load of gibberish again


You need to return to basics.  The idea is Democracy in America, not democracy in a small, mid-western university.  First, a university as a microcosm is hardly representative of an entire nation.  With a university we are not talking about democracy in America, but something in a much smaller setting.  Remember, it’s a political theory, not a pedagogical theory
Thorin wrote:I do not need to do anything and have perfectly illustrated how to use your own concept and turn it on its head and because the left are the tyranny o the majority, you come out with some gibberish claiming what it can and cannot apply to

Second, your assumptions about your microcosm are all wrong: you have no proof that “the left make up the majority of teachers and students.”  Without that fact, there is no basis for alleging a “tyranny of the majority on the left.”  So your entire construct of a microcosm is based upon false assumptions, not facts.

Third point: A university is not supposed to be run like a democracy.  Students don’t vote on administrative decisions.  The administrators do not run for their office.  A university was never set up to be run as a democracy.  It is an administrative institution, having as its mission, education.  It cannot be a microcosm of a democracy anywhere.
Thorin wrote:Student bodies get to invite and can apply pressure to have speakers cancelled.
Well as seen Universities are set up democratically as student bodies are voted on and that they even have says with the faculties. So on every aspect you are incorrect

This is important because what you are arguing is that, because of the “tyranny”, a cabal of lefties caused the cancellation of RW speakers.  How?  The lefties didn’t vote; the administrators made the decision.  According to them, they made the decision to cancel the engagements because of financial reasons.  You have no proof to contradict that, so it remains as fact.

Well in some cases they riot, threaten to riot and then the administration is left with little choice but to cancel due to safety reasons. These are just some examples and plenty more has been given in the links which proves again you never even read either did you Quill?
So best you get back to reading them buddy

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:29 pm

Thorin wrote:The student Left’s culture of intolerance is creating a new generation of conservatives.

Student demands for censorship get a lot of coverage. Spiked Online’s Free Speech University Rankings, now in its third annual edition, argues that there is a “crisis of free speech on campus”. By analysing the censorious policies and actions that have taken place on British campuses, Spiked concluded that 63.5 per cent of universities actively censor speech and 30.5 per cent stifle speech through excessive regulation. You can barely go a few days without encountering a new op-ed covering censorship on campus.

Maajid Nawaz describes the students demanding censorship as members of the “regressive left”. Milo Yiannopoulos calls them “snowflakes”. With all of this book-burning and platform-denying madness sweeping up much of the media’s interest in campus culture, the gradual rise of another group of students has gone under-reported. British and American millennials and post-millennials – also known as ‘Gen Z’ – are warming to conservatism. To understand why this is happening, it is important to consider the vast changes that have taken place in Western student politics over the last fifty years. 

Students were once in favour of free speech. In the mid-1960s, students of the University of California, Berkeley undertook a mass-movement for free speech. Under the leadership of Leftist heroes like Jack Weinberg, Bettina Aptheker and Jackie Goldberg, students demanded that the university administration retracted their on-campus ban of political activities. They demanded their freedom of speech. Mario Savio delivered what is generally recognised as the iconic speech of the University of California, Berkeley's (UCB) free speech movement. Here is the speech’s most powerful section:
“There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part! And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it — that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!”

Savio’s speech helped push the movement towards success. Berkeley students won their full rights. Students, now liberated from the “machine” of university censorship, were able to create the anti-Vietnam student movement, another famous campus protest. Nowadays, the student Left are unwilling to honour Savio’s legacy. On the 2nd of February, violent protests at Berkeley shut down a talk by popular conservative speaker Milo Yiannopoulos. Instead of maintaining a liberal and free atmosphere for speech and argument, Berkeley students have become the gears, wheels and levers of the machine that Savio wanted to stop.

In the space of fifty years, Berkeley students have gone from rioting against a university administration that limited their freedom of speech to violently opposing the presence of a speaker they disagree with. In the modern era, students have often been attracted to the politics of the Left. 1968 saw pivotal student protests around the world. In the United States, students were central to the civil rights movement. In France, students joined forces with millions of striking workers to protest against capitalism.

The conservative philosopher Roger Scruton was in Paris during the 1968 riots and has said that it was whilst witnessing the uprising that he became a conservative.

The violence at Berkeley mirrors the street protests in Paris from 1968. Privileged and excitable students living in one of the most blessed parts of the world went out and created havoc in order to overthrow an opponent that they refused to tolerate. The Parisians, at least, had a deeper political cause – but the Berkeley students carried out the ugliest form of protest. It is the form of protest that says “I don’t like that view, therefore you must not be allowed to express it” and it is causing a lot of students to have their own ‘Scruton moment’.

There have been several responses to campus censorship in the United Kingdom and the United States. One of the most interesting developments has been the rise in demand for conservative thought. In the United States, college tours by speakers popular with conservatives such as Milo Yiannopoulos, Steven Crowder, Ben Shapiro and Christina Hoff Sommers have become huge events. There has been a spike in membership in conservative college clubs including Young Americans for Liberty, which boasts 804 chapters filled with 308,927 members.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/02/17/student-lefts-culture-intolereance-creating-new-generation-ofconservatives/



More to read on the link

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:33 pm

A lack of right-wing and conservative lecturers at universities poses a serious threat to free speech on campus, a new study has warned. A report by the Adam Smith Institute claims that 75% of academics are now liberal or left-wing, a majority researchers say is leading to dangerous “group-think mentality” at some of the UK’s top institutions. 

“Groupthink [is] a dysfunctional atmosphere where key assumptions go unquestioned, dissenting opinions are neutralised, and favoured beliefs are held as sacrosanct,” the research reads. 

A study earlier this year revealed that 94% of UK universities now censor their students, banning everything from blasphemy to tabloid newspapers.  


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/right-wing-university-lecturers-free-speech-campus_uk_58b7dc63e4b0a8ded67a5c24

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:37 pm

Okay, maybe conservatives are right to freak out about illiberal lefty militancy on college campuses. Today’s students are indeed both more left wing and more openly hostile to free speech than earlier generations of collegians.


Don’t believe me? There are hard data to prove it.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/liberal-but-not-tolerant-on-the-nations-college-campuses/2016/02/11/0f79e8e8-d101-11e5-88cd-753e80cd29ad_story.html?utm_term=.3cf67d8a3740

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:25 pm

Thorin wrote:Well in some cases they riot, threaten to riot and then the administration is left with little choice but to cancel due to safety reasons.

Riots among students at Berkeley have not happened since 1968.  The recent riots over speakers Ann Coulter and Milo Yiannopoulos were from hooigans outside the university community.  Even so, it was the speakers who cancelled.

Thorin wrote:These are just some examples and plenty more has been given in the links which proves again you never even read either did you Quill?
So best you get back to reading them buddy

I see no evidence in your examples.  There's a lot of sensationalism in them to make it appear that there is a left/right split to the events, but really, there is none.  There's no uprising.  It's just administrators, considering the costs.

Demonstrations in the old days took place with speeches on Sproul Hall Plaza, and it was just people listening and milling about.  



Not like the outsiders who showed up over Coulter and Yiannopoulos.  I think the alt.rt press wants to visit the old days for nostalgia sake--sells papers--but its not happening.  There's no real issue to argue over.

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:31 pm

But they cancelled them due to safety reasons, but that is only the tip of the iceberg. As seen it is Universities themselves which are led by more left wing teachers who are calling the shots also on who can speak.

You can ignore this damning evidence all you like Quill, but both the left teachers and students are the Tyranny of the majority here within Universities.

Its evident you never read any of the links, which kind of defeats you engaging in this, if you refuse to look at the evidence

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:49 pm

Thorin wrote:But they cancelled them due to safety reasons, but that is only the tip of the iceberg.

Not really.  The administrators came back and explained that safety would be jeopardized if the Campus Police were not there...and it would be too expensive to keep the police standing by.

Thorin wrote:As seen it is Universities themselves which are led by more left wing teachers who are calling the shots also on who can speak.

You can ignore this damning evidence all you like Quill, but both the left teachers and students are the Tyranny of the majority here within Universities.

I don't think that's true.  Universities are diverse communities with all persuasions in them.  Berkeley, I know, has YAF chapters, and it even used to have a chapter for the John Birch Society.  Frat Row is loaded with Republicans.  Conservatives are attracted to Berkeley precisely because it used to be a liberal bastion, and they wanted to join in on the excitement going on in Sproul Plaza.  But, as a result, now it's much more homogeneous.

Thorin wrote:Its evident you never read any of the links, which kind of defeats you engaging in this, if you refuse to look at the evidence

Well, I know what the links said, but it's also true that I have available to me much more that tells me what's going on.  The argument you are trying to make is promulgated by Alt.Rt elements, and while it paints a colorful picture, it is not based upon full facts.

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Re: "Ban Free Speech Because Muh Feelings" Tucker Carlson DESTROYS Liberal Professor

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:55 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:But they cancelled them due to safety reasons, but that is only the tip of the iceberg.

Not really.  They came back and explained that safety would be jepordized if the Campus Police were not there...and it would be too expensive to keep the police standing by.

Thorin wrote:Ah so now cost is the excuse not the people on the left causing the costs because they will not allow free speech.
Wow

I don't think that's true.  Universities are diverse communities with all persuasions in them.  Berkeley, I know, has YAF chapters, and it even used to have a chapter for the John Birch Society.  Frat Row is loaded with Republicans.  Conservatives are attracted to Berkeley precisely because it used to be a liberal bastion, but now it's much more homogeneous.

Thorin wrote:You may not think its true but the evidence speaks otherwise and In Democrat states it tends to be even worse. This is not to say this does not happen on the right, it does. But we are seeing a mass increase in censorship from Universities that are a majority on the left and Berkeley is just such an example

Well, I know what the links said, but it's also true that I have available to me much more that tells me what's going on.  The argument you are trying to make is promulgated by Alt.Rt elements, and while it paints a colorful picture, it is not based upon full facts.

So you think you as one person not knowing the vast majority of universities is a more valid argument that collective data fundamentally showing you to be in error on this.
Oh here we go the next worst misdirection, claiming this is by the Alt-right, when the people countering this in the videos I presented do not stand for the Alt right. That is like saying the democrats must be arguing like the KKK, because the Democrats started the KKK. Just because the Alt right fights for free speech, does not mean they formulated these arguments. As most arguments for free speech come from the left. Sadly the left have forgotten this.

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