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Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:23 am

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London fire: fears of people trapped as major blaze engulfs tower block


(CNN)A huge fire has engulfed a 24-story apartment block in West London.

Around 200 firefighters and 20 fire trucks have been deployed to tackle the blaze as rescue workers try to evacuate the building in Lancaster West Estate in North Kensington, London Fire Brigade said.


The fire broke out before daybreak local time Wednesday. In a statement posted to Twitter, London police say two people are currently being treated for smoke inhalation and they're waiting updates on further injuries.

Photos and video shared on social media show the tower block engulfed in flames.
"The whole building is on fire (and) spreading fast," witness Goran Karimi told CNN.
He said he saw people jumping from the building.

Grenfell Tower

The 24-story Grenfell Tower was built in the 1970s and recently subject to a $10.9 million redevelopment, according to property firm Rydon.

Close to Notting Hill, the tower block is around a five minute walk from the Latimer Road Underground station and near the Westfield shopping center in the west London suburbs.
According to property website RightMove, the average rent in the building is around $2,500 a month.

News is just now breaking.  This is all there is, save for live TV.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Thorin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:35 am

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Sadly some people need something to focus their blame on Quill

Its starts where people cannot equate something as tragic as this can happen.

Its then when conspiracies form out of this.

Sadly where we would never discount any possibility of the cause. Those who form such conspiracies live off them and thrive in order to promote their own views on the world. All tragic acts are seen as an evil force. To who has done this. Its a religiousidiocy mindset in action again.

Conspiracy theories?  I believe he's posing an hypothesis.  And apparently he has some facts to bear him out.  He should be heard.

I don't think you can sweep this catastrophe under the rug of normalcy, didge.  As I said earlier, this is third world stuff>> Fires like this don't happen in modern, post-industrial countries.  People know better...authorities know better.  As one expert said:

BBC wrote:Matt Wrack, the general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union, told the BBC’s Newsnight that people living in Grenfell Tower “have the right” to ask questions about whether alterations to the cladding compromised the safety of the building. “The starting point is there needs to be an absolutely thorough investigation,” he said. “The truth is this should not be happening in the UK, one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

Can I get an Amen!?

So, we can bet that something under the table happened here.  Listen to the young man.  Listen to all who have something to say.  Something happened here, and can't just shrug our shoulders and think it won't happen again.

Really, facts to bear?
Saying something should not happen, does not mean it cannot happen. So that is not evidence, but an opinion.
Nobody is sweeping anything under the carpet.
He was suggesting that those who upgraded the building, started the fire deliberately. In order to get all other high rise buildings knocked down in the area to then build new ones only for the rich
That is a conspiracy.
As I already said we should never have high rise residential buildings as they are a disaster waiting to happen.
Has he any evidence to these claims other than being paranoid?
Now I am not discounting anything, but I dont make bold claims without evidence, as he did, maybe you can explain why he did?
This video came from Eddie who thinks everything is a Red Flag, and that the "New World Order" another wackadoodle conspiracy is behind many terrorist attacks and things like this. Which is why I take with the least pinch of salt.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:23 am

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Anyone seen this?? Worth a watch!



Language?

Fuck!!  How many people are dead?  Some people...where do they get their priorities?  Mad

Question

"Language"  !!!

What fucking "language"  ???

That filthy braindead cow of a reporter is one clueless fuckup...

Dozens, maybe hundreds, of people dead, and dozens more injured --  and all that amoral uncaring dog of a pretend "reporter" can be focused on is "apologising" for a local's "strong" language.

Let's hope that somebody somewhere at the BBC sees fit to sack her lazy stupid arse --  she is a self-serving disgrace not only to journalism, but to the entire human race..

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by nicko on Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:48 am

They ALWAYS apologise for bad language, some people under stress can't help it. Then again for some it's normal to swear all the time. No need to make an issue of it and insult the reporter.
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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:21 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Anyone seen this?? Worth a watch!



Language?

Fuck!!  How many people are dead?  Some people...where do they get their priorities?  Mad

Unless I misheard or misunderstood, I thought he said "...this was no accident" and that he used the word "fuck" or "fucking" at the end as he turned away.

If the reporter was referring to the former, she was no doubt (and quite rightly so IMO) disassociating herself from a publicly expressed opinion that might reasonably be interpreted as meaning that the blaze could have been started deliberately and with malicious intent.

Neither you nor I know how such an allegation might develop in the days ahead, but if she made a split second decision to disassociate her organisation with any possible future criminal investigation then she was on the ball and doing her job.

If the latter, then it always used to be a general editorial rule that an apology be made for the use of certain words - "fuck" being one of them - in live news and current affairs broadcasts. They are routinely edited or bleeped out in pre-recorded broadcasts, and maybe the old system of a five-second delay in live studio transmissiion might well be in force. I wouldn't know now...it's 15 years since I was last in a radio studio.
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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Fuzzy Zack on Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:47 pm

Peaky knows what he's talking about. And as he's a resident, he knows the state of the building and what authorities have been doing.

And he's not the only one who's been saying this.
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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:59 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Peaky knows what he's talking about. And as he's a resident, he knows the state of the building and what authorities have been doing.

And he's not the only one who's been saying this.

Perhaps not and I'm not being judgemental; I'm simply explaining some of the legal and in-house regulatory restraints and requirements to which reporters are required to adhere, particularly in broadcasting, and to suggest a point of law that might well interest Quill, as a lawyer, sufficiently enough to give me an authoritative response.
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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by sassy on Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:01 pm

After another fateful apartment fire in London, one of Mays aides has sat on a report which says how these flats are prone to fire and how dangerous they are. The cladding that was put on cost millions and was done basically to make them look better because of their right neighbours.

And guess what, the Minister for Fire is a landlord and voted against making rented property fit for human habitation.

May went there today and refused to meet residents.

I hope the dead haunt them and never let them get another nights sleep as long as they live.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Thorin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:11 pm

sassy wrote:After another fateful apartment fire in London, one of Mays aides has sat on a report which says how these flats are prone to fire and how dangerous they are.  The cladding that was put on cost millions and was done basically to make them look better because of their right neighbours.

And guess what, the Minister for Fire is a landlord and voted against making rented property fit for human habitation.

May went there today and refused to meet residents.

I hope the dead haunt them and never let them get another nights sleep as long as they live.

This was first brought to the attention of the Government back in 1999, with the problem with this cladding

Who was in power then Sassy?

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:22 pm

nicko wrote:They ALWAYS apologise for bad language,  some people under stress can't help it.  Then again for some it's normal to swear all the time.     No need to make an issue of it and insult the reporter.

Well...but criticize the reporter first!  She's the one who detracted from the real concern--the lives lost.  Maybe it's an American thing to always stick to the relevant concern, but to criticize one's language at a time like this is quite literally to trivialize the lives lost.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:34 pm

Fred M. wrote:If the reporter was referring to the former, she was no doubt (and quite rightly so IMO) disassociating herself from a publicly expressed opinion that might reasonably be interpreted as meaning that the blaze could have been started deliberately and with malicious intent.

Neither you nor I know how such an allegation might develop in the days ahead, but if she made a split second decision to disassociate her organisation with any possible future criminal investigation then she was on the ball and doing her job.

Ahem...what you are suggesting would be seen as manipulating the news in my country.  If a story is out there, she has an ethical duty to report on it. A "publicly expressed opinion" is the news!!  If it turns out to be erroneous, that should be reported too.  

But it violates all ethical rules for a reporter to "disassociate" herself from the news.  What is she out there for...to serve tea?

(But this discussion is beside the point, as what she was really concerning herself with was the language issue, not the news.)

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by eddie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:54 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Language?

Fuck!!  How many people are dead?  Some people...where do they get their priorities?  Mad

Sadly some people need something to focus their blame on Quill

Its starts where people cannot equate something as tragic as this can happen.

Its then when conspiracies form out of this.

Sadly where we would never discount any possibility of the cause. Those who form such conspiracies live off them and thrive in order to promote their own views on the world. All tragic acts are seen as an evil force. To who has done this. Its a religiousidiocy mindset in action again.

Conspiracy theories?  I believe he's posing an hypothesis.  And apparently he has some facts to bear him out.  He should be heard.

I don't think you can sweep this catastrophe under the rug of normalcy, didge.  As I said earlier, this is third world stuff>> Fires like this don't happen in modern, post-industrial countries.  People know better...authorities know better.  As one expert said:

BBC wrote:Matt Wrack, the general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union, told the BBC’s Newsnight that people living in Grenfell Tower “have the right” to ask questions about whether alterations to the cladding compromised the safety of the building. “The starting point is there needs to be an absolutely thorough investigation,” he said. “The truth is this should not be happening in the UK, one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

Can I get an Amen!?

So, we can bet that something under the table happened here.  Listen to the young man.  Listen to all who have something to say.  Something happened here, and can't just shrug our shoulders and think it won't happen again.

Bang on the money.

And as you say, it's not a conspiracy just because someone speaks out against something. Rolling Eyes He has lived there and seems to know what he's talking about.

A retired fire chief Inspector pretty much said the same thing: that building should not have gone up like it did. We know now, of course that it's the cheap cladding that made the fire worse and creep up the outside of the building. That stuff has been used to "pretty up" buildings all over London.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:56 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Peaky knows what he's talking about. And as he's a resident, he knows the state of the building and what authorities have been doing.

And he's not the only one who's been saying this.

Perhaps not and I'm not being judgemental; I'm simply explaining some of the legal and in-house regulatory restraints and requirements to which reporters are required to adhere, particularly in broadcasting, and to suggest a point of law that might well interest Quill, as a lawyer, sufficiently enough to give me an authoritative response.

Yes, a judiciously placed 'bleep' has served a couple of ends: first, it meets the FCC rules on language derived from Baptist-oriented censors; and second, it helps avoid language issues from becoming the central focus of the story.

IMO, the Baptists are more interested in salvation than the news, and have no business commenting anyway.  Moreover, the reporter made the language the story by frittering and fussing about the word FUCK, instead of sticking to the point.

London has more important fish to fry.


Last edited by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by eddie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:57 pm

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Sadly some people need something to focus their blame on Quill

Its starts where people cannot equate something as tragic as this can happen.

Its then when conspiracies form out of this.

Sadly where we would never discount any possibility of the cause. Those who form such conspiracies live off them and thrive in order to promote their own views on the world. All tragic acts are seen as an evil force. To who has done this. Its a religiousidiocy mindset in action again.

Conspiracy theories?  I believe he's posing an hypothesis.  And apparently he has some facts to bear him out.  He should be heard.

I don't think you can sweep this catastrophe under the rug of normalcy, didge.  As I said earlier, this is third world stuff>> Fires like this don't happen in modern, post-industrial countries.  People know better...authorities know better.  As one expert said:

BBC wrote:Matt Wrack, the general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union, told the BBC’s Newsnight that people living in Grenfell Tower “have the right” to ask questions about whether alterations to the cladding compromised the safety of the building. “The starting point is there needs to be an absolutely thorough investigation,” he said. “The truth is this should not be happening in the UK, one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

Can I get an Amen!?

So, we can bet that something under the table happened here.  Listen to the young man.  Listen to all who have something to say.  Something happened here, and can't just shrug our shoulders and think it won't happen again.

Really, facts to bear?
Saying something should not happen, does not mean it cannot happen. So that is not evidence, but an opinion.
Nobody is sweeping anything under the carpet.
He was suggesting that those who upgraded the building, started the fire deliberately. In order to get all other high rise buildings knocked down in the area to then build new ones only for the rich
That is a conspiracy.
As I already said we should never have high rise residential buildings as they are a disaster waiting to happen.
Has he any evidence to these claims other than being paranoid?
Now I am not discounting anything, but I dont make bold claims without evidence, as he did, maybe you can explain why he did?
This video came from Eddie who thinks everything is a Red Flag, and that the "New World Order" another wackadoodle conspiracy is behind many terrorist attacks and things like this. Which is why I take with the least pinch of salt.

That's why you make so many mistakes when you answer my posts didge.

Firstly you prejudge me and secondly I put the video up because he LIVES there and had something quite relevant to say about the refurbishment and lack of therein.


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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Thorin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:57 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Conspiracy theories?  I believe he's posing an hypothesis.  And apparently he has some facts to bear him out.  He should be heard.

I don't think you can sweep this catastrophe under the rug of normalcy, didge.  As I said earlier, this is third world stuff>> Fires like this don't happen in modern, post-industrial countries.  People know better...authorities know better.  As one expert said:



Can I get an Amen!?

So, we can bet that something under the table happened here.  Listen to the young man.  Listen to all who have something to say.  Something happened here, and can't just shrug our shoulders and think it won't happen again.

Bang on the money.

And as you say, it's not a conspiracy just because someone speaks out against something. Rolling Eyes He has lived there and seems to know what he's talking about.

A retired fire chief Inspector pretty much said the same thing:  that building should not have gone up like it did. We know now, of course that it's the cheap cladding that  made the fire worse and creep up the outside of the building. That stuff has been used to "pretty up" buildings all over London.


And as I said to Quill


Really, facts to bear?
Saying something should not happen, does not mean it cannot happen. So that is not evidence, but an opinion.
Nobody is sweeping anything under the carpet.
He was suggesting that those who upgraded the building, started the fire deliberately. In order to get all other high rise buildings knocked down in the area to then build new ones only for the rich
That is a conspiracy. 
As I already said we should never have high rise residential buildings as they are a disaster waiting to happen.
Has he any evidence to these claims other than being paranoid?
Now I am not discounting anything, but I dont make bold claims without evidence, as he did, maybe you can explain why he did?
This video came from Eddie who thinks everything is a Red Flag, and that the "New World Order" another wackadoodle conspiracy is behind many terrorist attacks and things like this. Which is why I take with the least pinch of salt.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by eddie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:57 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Anyone seen this?? Worth a watch!



Language?

Fuck!!  How many people are dead?  Some people...where do they get their priorities?  Mad

Question

"Language"  !!!

What fucking "language"  ???

That filthy braindead cow of a reporter is one clueless fuckup...

Dozens, maybe hundreds, of people dead, and dozens more injured --  and all that amoral uncaring dog of a pretend "reporter" can be focused on is "apologising" for a local's "strong" language.

Let's hope that somebody somewhere at the BBC sees fit to sack her lazy stupid arse --  she is a self-serving disgrace not only to journalism, but to the entire human race..

Exactly what I thought. She's another little robot sticking to the rules.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by eddie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:58 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Peaky knows what he's talking about. And as he's a resident, he knows the state of the building and what authorities have been doing.

And he's not the only one who's been saying this.

Yep.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Thorin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:01 pm

eddie wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Really, facts to bear?
Saying something should not happen, does not mean it cannot happen. So that is not evidence, but an opinion.
Nobody is sweeping anything under the carpet.
He was suggesting that those who upgraded the building, started the fire deliberately. In order to get all other high rise buildings knocked down in the area to then build new ones only for the rich
That is a conspiracy.
As I already said we should never have high rise residential buildings as they are a disaster waiting to happen.
Has he any evidence to these claims other than being paranoid?
Now I am not discounting anything, but I dont make bold claims without evidence, as he did, maybe you can explain why he did?
This video came from Eddie who thinks everything is a Red Flag, and that the "New World Order" another wackadoodle conspiracy is behind many terrorist attacks and things like this. Which is why I take with the least pinch of salt.

That's why you make so many mistakes when you answer my posts didge.

Firstly you prejudge me and secondly I put the video up because he LIVES there and had something quite relevant to say about the refurbishment and lack of therein.



How is it a mistake, when you often have claimed red flags

That is not judging you but going off your known views

I do not discount some of the things he said about refurbishment. the views though where he claimed they started this fire deliberately to get rid of the poor people out. I very much challenged, when its known it was a fridge fire. Is he now blaming the Somalian as complicit to this conspiracy who's flat the fridge was in?

So explain to me how I am judging you

This should be a chuckle

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by eddie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:06 pm

Because you ASSUMED the reason why I posted the video.
Yes. You did.

I ignored his conspiracy rant actually because I don't know enough. It was the REFURBISHMENT I wished to discuss

So you prejudged me. You won't admit it but you did.
You do it a lot and it's irritating.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Thorin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:09 pm

eddie wrote:Because you ASSUMED the reason why I posted the video.
Yes. You did.

I ignored his conspiracy rant actually because I don't know enough. It was the REFURBISHMENT I wished to discuss  

So you prejudged me. You won't admit it but you did.
You do it a lot and it's irritating.

You do normally claima red flag eddie, but you have made your position clear and also do not back his conspiracy claim

So fair enough, on this issue I admit I was wrong to claim you were posting this to back his conspiracy

Actually you judge plenty yourself, and to me, but it does not bother me

Its called having broad shoulders

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by eddie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:14 pm

I am actually backing his claim about the cost of that building refurbishment - he stated that the lifts (elevators to our US friends) were not even fixed?!

I've spoken to a builder/construction worker about the lack of sprinklers and has said that they won't install them in those old buildings due to having to disturb ceilings and walls etc which are full of asbestos.

I don't know where that £10 million went because even got the ex-fire chief said the doors in the hallways couldn't have been proper fire doors due to how quickly the smoke spread.

That's my focus.  Not the 'conspiracy' this guy spoke of.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:35 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:If the reporter was referring to the former, she was no doubt (and quite rightly so IMO) disassociating herself from a publicly expressed opinion that might reasonably be interpreted as meaning that the blaze could have been started deliberately and with malicious intent.

Neither you nor I know how such an allegation might develop in the days ahead, but if she made a split second decision to disassociate her organisation with any possible future criminal investigation then she was on the ball and doing her job.

Ahem...what you are suggesting would be seen as manipulating the news in my country.  If a story is out there, she has an ethical duty to report on it.  If it turns out to be erroneous, that should be reported too.  

But it violates all ethical rules for a reporter to "disassociate" herself from the news.  What is she out there for...to serve tea?

No, she was not "disassociating herself from the news" and you didn't fully quote the paragraph in which I qualified what I had said.

She was, in my opinion - and it is only my opinion - disassociating herself, and thus the BBC, from what may well have been a potentially prejudicial comment made by the interviewee.

Or, possibly, an expletive that she decided at the time was inappropriate and offensive and which contradicted internal broadcast regulations. I don't know which.

Under the circumstances, and indeed in the light of what is today emerging in the media concerning the possible involvement of named individuals and the likely issue of civil or even criminal liability, the term "this was not an accident" cannot lightly be dismissed and might reasonably be regarded as an implied accusation.

I am sure that you as a lawyer (assuming that US law is similar to our own) might well advise a complainant in a defamation case that the publisher of a libel bears equal responsibility to the author and is, therefore, equally liable in law.

I believe that the US news media has a somewhat different approach to our own in the nomenclature of the various roles involved in newsgathering.

A reporter's job is to report the news with balance and accuracy, and not to allow personal opinion or prejudices to be involved.

A broadcast news correspondent's role is both to report the news and to express an authoritative opinion, based on his or her qualifications, seniority, etc.

In newspapers, a reporter's job is the same, but actual opinion and comment is the role of either the editor and his leader writers or by-lined columnists.

It all really harks back to the old adage coined by a great English newspaper editor, C P Scott of the then Manchester Guardian, that "comment is free, but facts are sacred."

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:48 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Conspiracy theories?  I believe he's posing an hypothesis.  And apparently he has some facts to bear him out.  He should be heard.

I don't think you can sweep this catastrophe under the rug of normalcy, didge.  As I said earlier, this is third world stuff>> Fires like this don't happen in modern, post-industrial countries.  People know better...authorities know better.  As one expert said:



Can I get an Amen!?

So, we can bet that something under the table happened here.  Listen to the young man.  Listen to all who have something to say.  Something happened here, and can't just shrug our shoulders and think it won't happen again.

Bang on the money.

And as you say, it's not a conspiracy just because someone speaks out against something. Rolling Eyes He has lived there and seems to know what he's talking about.

A retired fire chief Inspector pretty much said the same thing:  that building should not have gone up like it did. We know now, of course that it's the cheap cladding that  made the fire worse and creep up the outside of the building. That stuff has been used to "pretty up" buildings all over London.


Not quite eddie... a lick of paint would have done that... this was insulation to reduce heat loss and reduce energy useage to meet 'green' targets... agreed by labour back in 2003 was what someone on radio was saying last night...

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:52 pm

Eds wrote:That's my focus. Not the 'conspiracy' this guy spoke of.

A conspiracy is:

Merriam-Webster wrote:con·spir·a·cy
/kənˈspirəsē/
noun
a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.
"a conspiracy to destroy the government"
synonyms: plot, scheme, plan, machination, ploy, trick, ruse, subterfuge; informalracket
"a conspiracy to manipulate the results"

the action of plotting or conspiring.
"they were cleared of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice"
synonyms: plotting, collusion, intrigue, connivance, machination, collaboration; treason
"conspiracy to commit murder"

To allege a conspiracy you've gotta have 1) at least one other person; and 2) an unlawful or harmful purpose. Since a conspiracy is a specific event claimed to have occurred, as with any fact you've got to have evidence, Let's get real...the allegations of Peaky do not rise to the level of a conspiracy.

Peaky is making an allegation...a special kind of hypothesis that goes to wrongdoing. An hypothesis does not fail for lack of facts...it is a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

So let's dispense with the verbal nonsense. The allegation of Peaky is worthy of investigation. As Zack rightly pointed out, the man lives there and has some knowledge about the renovations and the £10-million spent. That's the limited evidence needed to raise the question. Now, someone should pursue his lead.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:56 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Perhaps not and I'm not being judgemental; I'm simply explaining some of the legal and in-house regulatory restraints and requirements to which reporters are required to adhere, particularly in broadcasting, and to suggest a point of law that might well interest Quill, as a lawyer, sufficiently enough to give me an authoritative response.

Yes, a judiciously placed 'bleep' has served a couple of ends: first, it meets the FCC rules on language derived from Baptist-oriented censors; and second, it helps avoid language issues from becoming the central focus of the story.

IMO, the Baptists are more interested in salvation than the news, and have no business commenting anyway.  Moreover, the reporter made the language the story by frittering and fussing about the word FUCK, instead of sticking to the point.

London has more important fish to fry.

I entirely agree that London has far more important fish to fry and I was one of the first to express horror and sympathy at the event (not sure whether here or elsewhere).

But surely that should not preclude a discussion on a particular aspect of the tragedy that has been raised, namely TV coverage. This is, after all, a discussion group.

My natural inclination was to try to explain likely scenarios and defend the journalist concerned, because I myself have been in situations like that (though, thank God, nothing like so horrific).

That defence is apparently unwelcome in some quarters ( and believe me, I shall lose no sleep about that!), but at least I was able to make my point without resorting to the sort of filthy, obscene, hysterical attack on the reporter that we have seen elsewhere in this thread.

On a lighter note, Quill, I think you will find that the Baptists don't have a great deal of input when it comes to the censorship or otherwise of the Press in the UK.

Here, we tend to regard the profession in the same light as that of (I think) an American commentator:

There is no need to bribe or twist, thank God, the journalist.
For seeing what the man will do unbribed, there really is no reason to."
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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Thorin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Eds wrote:That's my focus.  Not the 'conspiracy' this guy spoke of.

A conspiracy is:

Merriam-Webster wrote:con·spir·a·cy
/kənˈspirəsē/
noun
a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.
"a conspiracy to destroy the government"
synonyms: plot, scheme, plan, machination, ploy, trick, ruse, subterfuge; informalracket
"a conspiracy to manipulate the results"

the action of plotting or conspiring.
"they were cleared of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice"
synonyms: plotting, collusion, intrigue, connivance, machination, collaboration; treason
"conspiracy to commit murder"

To allege a conspiracy you've gotta have 1) at least one other person; and 2) an unlawful or harmful purpose.  Since a conspiracy is a specific event claimed to have occurred, as with any fact you've got to have evidence,  Let's get real...the allegations of Peaky do not rise to the level of a conspiracy.

Peaky is making an allegation...a special kind of hypothesis that goes to wrongdoing.  An hypothesis does not fail for lack of facts...it is a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

So let's dispense with the verbal nonsense.  The allegation of Peaky is worthy of investigation.  As Zack rightly pointed out, the man lives there and has some knowledge about the renovations and the £10-million spent.  That's the limited evidence needed to raise the question.  Now, someone should pursue his lead.


Wow and you claim to understand law?
You are claiming the Police will investigate the owners as starting the fire, based off this claim. Even when we know the fire was a fridge fire started in a Somalian taxi driver's flat. The man who alerted the fire brigade. Are you claiming he is complicit to this so called conspiracy to burn the flats down, in order to make way for new ones for the rich?

Yeah right oh

His views to the problems are of no doubt important and valid, but he spoilt it by claiming they started the fire deliberately, when as seen this could not be the case, unless you are making the Somalian complicit.

If you think the Police will investigate this claim, based on no evidence but this claims, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

What does need to happen is heads rolling for this cladding and whether the owners did do this on the cheap and that they should be investigated off these failings

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:00 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
eddie wrote:

Bang on the money.

And as you say, it's not a conspiracy just because someone speaks out against something. Rolling Eyes He has lived there and seems to know what he's talking about.

A retired fire chief Inspector pretty much said the same thing:  that building should not have gone up like it did. We know now, of course that it's the cheap cladding that  made the fire worse and creep up the outside of the building. That stuff has been used to "pretty up" buildings all over London.


Not quite eddie... a lick of paint would have done that... this was insulation to reduce heat loss and reduce energy useage to meet 'green' targets... agreed by labour back in 2003 was what someone on radio was saying last night...

What about Vic's contention that cladding creates a 'chimney' effect, allowing contained heat to transfer from floor to floor...thereby contributing to the spread of the fire?

I have been involved in a lot of litigation over apartment building fires, and that makes a whole lot of sense to me...especially when the path is vertical.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:05 pm

eddie wrote:I am actually backing his claim about the cost of that building refurbishment - he stated that the lifts (elevators to our US friends) were not even fixed?!

I've spoken to a builder/construction worker about the lack of sprinklers and has said that they won't install them in those old buildings due to having to disturb ceilings and walls etc which are full of asbestos.

I don't know where that £10 million went because even got the ex-fire chief said the doors in the hallways couldn't have been proper fire doors due to how quickly the smoke spread.

That's my focus.  Not the 'conspiracy' this guy spoke of.


There is asbestos in most old buildings... and in most old council home buildings there is artex over the ceilings which contains asbestos too...

There is normally nothing that will burn in the communal landings and stairwells of these blocks... so a sprinkler system would be pointless...

What i want to know is if the fire was being carried up the outside of building just by cladding... why were there pictures of people at the windows where the fire wasnt yet there on the outside but looked like there was fire in the rooms behind them on the inside???

Was it travelling up the plastic waste water pipes and setting fire to the kitchens upwards through the building too???

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:08 pm

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

A conspiracy is:



To allege a conspiracy you've gotta have 1) at least one other person; and 2) an unlawful or harmful purpose.  Since a conspiracy is a specific event claimed to have occurred, as with any fact you've got to have evidence,  Let's get real...the allegations of Peaky do not rise to the level of a conspiracy.

Peaky is making an allegation...a special kind of hypothesis that goes to wrongdoing.  An hypothesis does not fail for lack of facts...it is a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

So let's dispense with the verbal nonsense.  The allegation of Peaky is worthy of investigation.  As Zack rightly pointed out, the man lives there and has some knowledge about the renovations and the £10-million spent.  That's the limited evidence needed to raise the question.  Now, someone should pursue his lead.


Wow and you claim to understand law?
You are claiming the Police will investigate the owners as starting the fire, based off this claim. Even when we know the fire was a fridge fire started in a Somalian taxi driver's flat. The man who alerted the fire brigade. Are you claiming he is complicit to this so called conspiracy to burn the flats down, in order to make way for new ones for the rich?

Yeah right oh

His views to the problems are of no doubt important and valid, but he spoilt it by claiming they started the fire deliberately, when as seen this could not be the case, unless you are making the Somalian complicit.

If you think the Police will investigate this claim, based on no evidence but this claims, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

What does need to happen is heads rolling for this cladding and whether the owners did do this on the cheap and that they should be investigated off these failings

Stop being your normal asshole for a minute, and consider the situation.  The police are not going to investigate this incident; and the fire marshals are faced with a host of possibilities, among which are the hypotheses of Peaky.  

Peaky may be completely right, or he may be partially right.  Standard investigative technique is to review the evidence, find the ignition source, determine the path and spread, and working backwards, to determine human involvement, if any.  It may be a defective product.  It may be someone who was careless with a cigarette.  And that's just ignition.  Now, we investigate what contributed to the spread of this fire.  That's where this siding material (cladding) may come into the picture.

The investigation of these matters takes time and involves experience and education.  It's not all over in the blink of an eye, as your approach suggests.  Let's follow the leads, and see where the evidence takes us.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:16 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Not quite eddie... a lick of paint would have done that... this was insulation to reduce heat loss and reduce energy useage to meet 'green' targets... agreed by labour back in 2003 was what someone on radio was saying last night...

What about Vic's contention that cladding creates a 'chimney' effect, allowing contained heat to transfer from floor to floor...thereby contributing to the spread of the fire?

I have been involved in a lot of litigation over apartment building fires, and that makes a whole lot of sense to me...especially when the path is vertical.


I was talking about the intended function of the cladding, purpose being insulation...


Of course if the inner layer was flammable and was on fire... it is obvious that it would quickly spread upwards and around the whole building... drawing in air from below as it raged on upwards...


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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:20 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

What about Vic's contention that cladding creates a 'chimney' effect, allowing contained heat to transfer from floor to floor...thereby contributing to the spread of the fire?

I have been involved in a lot of litigation over apartment building fires, and that makes a whole lot of sense to me...especially when the path is vertical.


I was talking about the intended function of the cladding, purpose being insulation...


Of course if the inner layer was flammable and was on fire... it is obvious that it would quickly spread upwards and around the whole building... drawing in air from below as it raged on upwards...

And spread, or what they call the 'V' of the fire, is one of the important investigative findings, as it determines not only cause or ignition, but determines such things as accelerants and airways as the fire seeks oxygen. That might indeed be the cladding.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by eddie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:39 pm

"What did we even wake them up for? Because basically, we woke them up and they were still trapped in that building..."



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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Thorin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Wow and you claim to understand law?
You are claiming the Police will investigate the owners as starting the fire, based off this claim. Even when we know the fire was a fridge fire started in a Somalian taxi driver's flat. The man who alerted the fire brigade. Are you claiming he is complicit to this so called conspiracy to burn the flats down, in order to make way for new ones for the rich?

Yeah right oh

His views to the problems are of no doubt important and valid, but he spoilt it by claiming they started the fire deliberately, when as seen this could not be the case, unless you are making the Somalian complicit.

If you think the Police will investigate this claim, based on no evidence but this claims, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

What does need to happen is heads rolling for this cladding and whether the owners did do this on the cheap and that they should be investigated off these failings

Stop being your normal asshole for a minute, and consider the situation.  The police are not going to investigate this incident; and the fire marshals are faced with a host of possibilities, among which are the hypotheses of Peaky.  

Peaky may be completely right, or he may be partially right.  Standard investigative technique is to review the evidence, find the ignition source, determine the path and spread, and working backwards, to determine human involvement, if any.  It may be a defective product.  It may be someone who was careless with a cigarette.  And that's just ignition.  Now, we investigate what contributed to the spread of this fire.  That's where this siding material (cladding) may come into the picture.

The investigation of these matters takes time and involves experience and education.  It's not all over in the blink of an eye, as your approach suggests.  Let's follow the leads, and see where the evidence takes us.

So again the abuse starts when I show up your poor idiotic views points
The Police will investigate the Fire as will the Police. They are not going to take the lead off someone angry making a claim not based on evidence.

Now I am sorry you have the intellect of a gerbil and cannot understand what real leads are. This man said this not based off any evidence but anger at what has happened and at how the refurbishments were done on the cheap. Or can that simple brain of yours not work that out?

So you tell me how and why the Police would go off accusations made by anyone on the street without any evidence? Based on your absurd view, the Police would investigate every single claim they read on the web. That is not how investigations work.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:52 pm

eddie wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Question

"Language"  !!!

What fucking "language"  ???

That filthy braindead cow of a reporter is one clueless fuckup...

Dozens, maybe hundreds, of people dead, and dozens more injured --  and all that amoral uncaring dog of a pretend "reporter" can be focused on is "apologising" for a local's "strong" language.

Let's hope that somebody somewhere at the BBC sees fit to sack her lazy stupid arse --  she is a self-serving disgrace not only to journalism, but to the entire human race..

Exactly what I thought.  She's another little robot sticking to the rules.

Perhaps she values her job. She only apologised for the bad language.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:55 pm

Quill... I have already posted that i was involved in a job last year on a tower block where we were installing new lighting and mains power in the communal areas... but where there was also work going on to the outside of building by another company who were fitting similar/same cladding...

And this was done using a layer of rockwall then a layer of some hard board plastic looking sheeting type stuff, and i think that it was covered in a layer of plaster (rendered), and then painted...

Rockwall is full of air... bit like candy floss... and is used as insulation all over the place... lofts, inbetween plasterboard walls and under floors etc...



Eddie... most new buildings are fitted with AOVs... which are vents that open if fire detected... isaid to a fire alarm guy once that surely opening vents would help the fire by giving it more air and be fuelling it... he said that the idea was to clear the smoke out early on because it was the smoke that killed people first and prevented people escaping...









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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:59 pm

I'd like to know more about how the fire started in the first place. A faulty fridge? What kind of fault was it?

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Thorin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:01 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I'd like to know more about how the fire started in the first place. A faulty fridge? What kind of fault was it?

That I am interested in too.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:04 pm

Eddie... what happened to your post about the TMO housing group with all the links from grenfel residents group?

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:05 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:

Exactly what I thought.  She's another little robot sticking to the rules.

Perhaps she values her job. She only apologised for the bad language.

So, if she values her job, she should do it well. She's being paid to chase the news, not fritter her time away worrying about someone who says words that are only of concern to those who have too much time on their hands.

Hmmm...on the one hand we have lives that have been lost. On the other hand, we have four letter audible sounds. Tough choice.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:07 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Perhaps she values her job. She only apologised for the bad language.

So, if she values her job, she should do it well.  She's being paid to chase the news, not fritter her time away worrying about someone who says words that are only of concern to those who have too much time on their hands.

Hmmm...on the one hand we have lives that have been lost.  On the other hand, we have four letter audible sounds.  Tough choice.

She is doing her job actually. It's normal to keep bad language out of interviews if possible. The two things are not connected, so calm down about it.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:09 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I'd like to know more about how the fire started in the first place. A faulty fridge? What kind of fault was it?


Sounds a bit dubious to me...

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:25 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I'd like to know more about how the fire started in the first place. A faulty fridge? What kind of fault was it?


Sounds a bit dubious to me...


There's a story in the media that the bloke in whose flat the fire broke out turned up at a neighbour's door telling her to get out...and while carrying a large bag of already packed clothing.

Separating truth from fiction from now on is going to be difficult, but everything else pales into insignificance given the dreadful loss of life.
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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:26 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill... I have already posted that i was involved in a job last year on a tower block where we were installing new lighting and mains power in the communal areas... but where there was also work going on to the outside of building by another company who were fitting similar/same cladding...

And this was done using a layer of rockwall then a layer of some hard board plastic looking sheeting type stuff, and i think that it was covered in a layer of plaster (rendered), and then painted...

Rockwall is full of air... bit like candy floss... and is used as insulation all over the place... lofts, inbetween plasterboard walls and under floors etc...

The Telegraph News wrote:
What is cladding, and why can it be a fire risk?

Adam Boult
15 JUNE 2017

Following the fire that devastated Grenfell Tower in west London this week, leaving at least 17 dead and many more injured, questions have arisen over the cladding that was fitted to the exterior of the tower block in 2015.

Angus Law, BRE Centre for Fire Safety Engineering at the University of Edinburgh said: "Early media reports suggest that this event has similarities with other fires that have occurred recently around the world; it appears that the external cladding has significantly contributed to the spread of fire at Grenfell Tower."

What was the cladding made of?

The cladding was installed by Harley Curtain Wall Ltd, which was paid £3million for the job. Company director Ray Bailey said that they had used a common Aluminium Composite Material (ACM) panels which are a commonly used product in the refurbishment industry.

Why had the cladding been installed?

Cladding is used in part to insulate buildings, and also in part to improve their appearance.

A 2014 planning document produced ahead of the works carried out on Grenfell Tower read: “Due to its height the tower is visible from the adjacent Avondale Conservation Area to the south and the Ladbroke Conservation Area to the east.

“The changes to the existing tower will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area.

"The reclad materials and new windows will represent a significant improvement to the environmental performance of the building and to its physical appearance.

"The design of the scheme as a whole has fully considered policy requirements, expectations and aspirations, fully taking into consideration the immediate and wider surroundings, particularly focussing on creating a wider environment that works as a coherent place."

How might cladding have contributed to the spread of fire?

Experts said that the cladding could act like a "chimney" for the flames by allowing the fire to spread upwards through the gaps between the cladding and the building walls.

Geoff Wilkinson, managing director of Wilkinson Construction Consultants, wrote in the Daily Telegraph: "These plastic or metal panels are installed to protect a building from weather or improve its appearance, but between them and the wall there is a cavity where rain can run down.

"In the event of a fire this acts like a chimney, drawing the hot air up through itself and making the flames burn brighter. In this way fire [travels] all the way up from the base of the building to the very top.

"Once spread via cladding, the fire could have caught on curtains blowing through windows left open on a hot summer’s night."

Has cladding been associated with other fires?

Matthew Needham-Laing, an architect who is head of construction at Katten Law UK, said that the first known cladding fire in the UK was in 1991 and there had been concerns in the industry about its fire safety for a number of years.

He said: "This is not a shock, the problems with cladding have been known about and talked about for a number of years and hopefully this will at least make people listen."

Mr Wilkinson said: "In Knowsley Heights in Manchester in 1991, fire spread in a way no one had predicted via the decorative cladding on the outside of the building.

"Something similar happened in Irvine in 1999, after which new regulations were put out which limited the types of cladding which could be used."

There have been fires which spread in high-rise buildings in France, the UAE and Australia that had similar cladding, according to the BBC's Newsnight programme.

How many other buildings have similar cladding?

There are thought to be in the region of 30,000 buildings in the UK fitted with cladding similar to that on Grenfell Tower

Will there be a review into use of cladding?

Mike Penning, a former fire minister, has called for an urgent review, saying "We need to expedite this as far as possible - this cladding is used extensively in the UK and abroad."

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:28 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

So, if she values her job, she should do it well.  She's being paid to chase the news, not fritter her time away worrying about someone who says words that are only of concern to those who have too much time on their hands.

Hmmm...on the one hand we have lives that have been lost.  On the other hand, we have four letter audible sounds.  Tough choice.

She is doing her job actually. It's normal to keep bad language out of interviews if possible. The two things are not connected, so calm down about it.

She's the one who needs calming down about it. I'm busy posting about relevant facts.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:32 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

She is doing her job actually. It's normal to keep bad language out of interviews if possible. The two things are not connected, so calm down about it.

She's the one who needs calming down about it.  I'm busy posting about relevant facts.

You're obsessing about it - rather than concentrating on the fire and loss of life, so you're doing what you're accusing her of.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:36 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

She's the one who needs calming down about it.  I'm busy posting about relevant facts.

You're obsessing about it - rather than concentrating on the fire and loss of life, so you're doing what you're accusing her of.

I started this thread to speak out about a huge tragedy and loss of life.  She, and you, are squandering our time and space speaking of irrelevant nonsense.  Stick to the subject or start your own thread about swearing. It trivializes the subject.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You're obsessing about it - rather than concentrating on the fire and loss of life, so you're doing what you're accusing her of.

I started this thread to speak out about a huge tragedy and loss of life.  She, and you, are squandering our time and space speaking of irrelevant nonsense.  Stick to the subject or start your own thread about swearing.  It trivializes the subject.

I didn't start complaining about the reporter re the swearing. I just think people are making too much fuss about it.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I'd like to know more about how the fire started in the first place. A faulty fridge? What kind of fault was it?


Sounds a bit dubious to me...

There's going to be an investigation obviously, and they'll be gunning for anyone who was responsible for the design of the building, but if an appliance started the fire, shouldn't they be looking into that as well? There have been reports of tumble dryers catching fire lately, and yet they weren't recalled for ages.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I started this thread to speak out about a huge tragedy and loss of life.  She, and you, are squandering our time and space speaking of irrelevant nonsense.  Stick to the subject or start your own thread about swearing.  It trivializes the subject.

I didn't start complaining about the reporter re the swearing. I just think people are making too much fuss about it.

Then stop fussing over it.

As to the fire causation, they will be looking into a variety of contributing factors.  I've already mentioned ignition and acceleration.  They will also be looking into the path of the fire, specifically to see what spread and enlarged it.

Ultimately they will be looking at human factors, concerning both civil and criminal liability.  They will also be looking into causation due to product failures, whether design or misuse.  This is where the cladding comes in.  Finally, they will be looking at everyone's agendas, to determine if it was possibly intentionally set. For example, a strong clue would be removal of valuable items, photographs or mementoes, that would suggest planning aforethought.


Last edited by Original Quill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:58 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I didn't start complaining about the reporter re the swearing. I just think people are making too much fuss about it.

Then stop fussing over it.

As to the fire causation, they will be looking into a variety of contributing factors.  I've already mentioned ignition and acceleration.  They will also be looking into the path of the fire, specifically to see what spread and enlarged it.

Ultimately they will be looking at human factors, concerning both civil and criminal liability.  They will also be looking into causation due to product failures, whether design or misuse.  This is where the cladding comes in.  Finally, they will be looking at everyone's agendas, to determine if it was possibly intentionally set.

I wasn't fussing over it - you and others were. I merely replied to eddie about it. You are the one keeping this going - as usual.

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Re: Massive West London Apartment fire

Post by eddie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Eddie... what happened to your post about the TMO housing group with all the links from grenfel residents group?

Sorry Tommy I moved it to a new thread right here in uk news.

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