Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses and turbans in the workplace.

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Post by Syl on Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/bosses-can-ban-headscarves-and-crucifixes-eu-judge-says/

Is it a step forwards?
I tend to think not..... I agree that a full face veil is not appropriate at work, but if a headscarf, turban, crucifix, or any other article worn for religious or cultural reasons doesn't interfere with the job why ban them?

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Post by veya_victaous on Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:41 pm

Thorin wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Thorin wrote:


But Muslims could ban the crosses

You don't think Muslims are not oppressed in the west.

Tell that to many who are unable to go to to the Police when beaten by their husbands.
Tell that to those who are forced to cover up by their husbands.
Tell that to those who are forced to have sex by their husbands and thus raped.

I cant say 100% in the UK
but no Muslim women is unable to go to the police in Australia
they may choose, through fear and cowardice, to no go to the police but they can.

how can a husband Force her to cover up? unless he is with 100% of the time? she can just leave for work with it on and take it off once around the corner  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  
these women choose to do these things they choose to let their husbands do it to them, why I don't know. But what I do know is to have westerners belittle them and downplay their ability to become independent women in a western nation DOES NOT HELP!! If westerners want to 'help' they should do it the same way as it was done for western women and that is giving them confidence to expect equality of treatment, to be confident that if they go to the police They will be treated with respect and care and be given the means to escape abuse.

TLDR
the Thorin method is wrong, the Spice girl's method (a.k.a Girl Power)  is right.
Teaching them to obey a 'different' man is not fixing the root cause of the issues.
teaching them to be strong, confident and convincing them that they can do it, they are capable people, is the actual solution.



Cultural Barriers
Asian / Muslim women face additional cultural barriers that prevent them from seeking help such as fear of dishonoring family, shame, stigma, taboo and being rejected by the community.  Also women in these communities are expected to suffer in silence.  So when they ask for help from family, friends and religious leaders, they are usually advised to be patient and / or pray for their situation to change. They are also usually blamed for any problem within the family including the violence and abuse they are subjected to.  This fear of blame can also prevent women from coming forward and getting the help they need.  Domestic violence is therefore under reported in Asian / Muslim communities.  For some women it is too late to ask for help and are being murdered by their husbands or other family members as seen in a number of cases featured in the media.  There is also anecdotal evidence that some women are being taken abroad to India, Pakistan and Bangladesh on the pretense of a family holiday so they can be murdered there to cover up the crime.

http://www.mwnhelpline.co.uk/issuesstep2.php?id=14


When it comes to wearing the headscarf (veil), some women wear it because they truly believe it to be part of their faith. Others, one the other hand, are forced to wear it, and these are many.

Those, who insist on not wearing it face physical and physiological sanctions from their family and community. I dealt with such cases in my consulting work with educational authorities here in Switzerland. In certain parts of the UK, some women’s rights activists have to wear the headscarf in order for them to get access to the women trapped in their closed communities. In Egypt, where a wave of young women taking off their veil is on the march, some young women face defamation and threats. And in some Islamic countries, women are forced to wear the headscarf whether they wanted it or not. For example, in Iran, women are not privileged with the freedom of choice. Like it or not they have to wear the headscarf. The veil was the symbol by which the Islamic Revolution showed its face to the world – by decreeing that all women should cover themselves! Those who disobey this decree are faced with fines and arrest.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/womens-march-why-use-the-headscarf-viel-as-a-symbol_us_5884a1ede4b0111ea60b971c


THE Islamic law propagated by some sharia courts in the UK is more antiquated and extreme than in parts of Pakistan, according to a new book that claims they are prepared to condone wife-beating, ignore marital rape and allow a father to annul his daughter’s marriage if he dislikes her choice of groom.


http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Crime/article1672846.ece

those Articles SUPPORT WHAT I SAID!!!
they don't report through fear and cowardice
so teach them to be brave, show them they can be brave and that there is a community happy to embrace them for themselves
ok, this doesn't seem to exist in the UK No No and the UK is full of cowards which is why I said Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I cant say 100% in the UK
but no Muslim women is unable to go to the police in Australia

And the POINT IS belittling their potential does NOTHING to change any of that.
Cultural barriers are IMAGINARY! they are not real, they are JUST make believe bogey men that can only exist in those that lack the confidence to assert themselves.
SO the solution is to teach them to value themselves and their opinions and get to them embrace the freedom of individuality that Living in the western secular nation provides. Which includes being subservient IF they choose but let it be Clear it is a CHOICE they are not required to.
Teach them they are not defined by their gender, their skin or their faith BUT BY THIER CHARATER, Their achievements and their actions.
And when some asshole does try and define them by those things you Defend them against that asshole, you fight against sexist, racist, homophobes etc


And Stop spreading this Bullshit about "ohh they're family oriented that's why they get disowned if they question" it is ANTI FAMILY orientated to say you will disown a child FOR ANY REASON! Supporting such an obviously lie is just an excuse to leave shit how it is. Yes that means that the Parents that Bullshit to their kids and tell them that 'their culture is family orientated' because they will disown kids for a old book or some hill shepherd's wet dream THAT they are FULL OF SHIT they are ANTI-FAMILIY and frankly disgusting that they would even think to threaten, let alone actually Disown of honor kill, THEIR OWN CHILD!!!

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Post by Guest on Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:05 pm

Wow, so cultural barriers are not real?
Yes they are when people hold different ideologial views

That is your first fallacy.
Second many as seen cannot go to the authorities, as it means their ostracization from the community and family. Its hard not to fear the consequences of this and why many out of fear, fail to act on this. Why even more there needs to be support groups for them.

They can hardly value themselves if it teaches within the Islamic school of thought, that they have to give up their bodies to their husbands if they want sex. Or that their husbands can beat them. Yes teaching is important but far greater is to challenge these poor beliefs. As you are getting to the root cause of the problem.

Not quite sure how to translate the last paragraph, as it was nothing I even claimed or said and that you are going off in some mad rant mode.
Parents often place their religious beliefs over their own children.
Just ask many homosexuals that come from religious families who are disowned for example and ask any literal religious person how they place their God above everyone else.

You are blatantly and poorly failing to understand the problems here.

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:18 am

No Cultural barriers are NOT real, they are in the heads of people that LET THEM be in their heads!!!
YES IT IS FEAR!! read what I wrote that is my point FEAR IS NOT A REASON!!! Fear and Cowardice IS not an excuse, it is a choice to submit to fear.


let them be ostracized by THAT community that does not REPRESENT our nations laws, it is a Choice they have to make.. YES choices have consequences AND under our laws there is REAL consequences for people that commit abuse that include Jail.
If a women is Here or the UK they are NOT REAL BARRIERS They CAN walk into any police station and no one will give a shit about the supposed cultural barrier. The LAW does NOT recognize these 'barriers' For Precisely this reason. A Woman that was Born Islamic has the exact same rights as any other woman in our society.

NO I understand the problem is COWARDICE and People(like you are doing) Justifying cowardice saying 'ohh culture blah'... NOT RELVANT to the LAW or the fact that the women CAN walk into a police station and have her abuser charged, YES this may have consequences BUT only if her family is NOT family orientated.
So She CAN walk in have him charged for Breaching the nations Secular laws (the only real ones) and She might be ostracized by the Muslim community. WHICH is why the secular community needs to Embrace her for doing so. When We embrace enough of the Muslim communities daughters the problem will be solved as OTHER abused Muslim women will see THEY HAVE A CHOICE.

IF they CHOOSE to accept abuse and stay quiet Because they Choose to be cowards, then they have to live with those consequences too, Either way there is consequences THEY have to make the choice.



ARE you sure your not one of these British Lefties that Lord Foul Whines about??

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:46 am

Imams given help to find balance between cultural, legal issues

The legal course was backed by the Sir Zelman Cowen Centre at Victoria University.
Former Labor minister Nicola Roxon, who now works at the centre, said imams were also put through a legal program to offer them assistance in balancing cultural and legal tensions.
"Lots of community members go to them to solve commercial disputes, let alone personal disputes, so they need to be given more tools to do that work effectively and consistently with Australian law," Ms Roxon said.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-16/women-Muslim-leaders-given-crash-course-in-legal-studies/8030398


Your first claim debunked

Wow, they you have it. You do not care about the root cause problem of the community if they ostracize someone. That it will continue and not tackle the problem then. Its is a rational fear, as many will have to take the big step of breaking away from many people they know or even face the possibility of death. The fact they do fear, shows there is a cultural barrier. As no fear would exist without this.

How can you jail people for disowning people or those who ostracize within the community?


No what has to happen as well as above with training, is for people to stand up and challenge poor beliefs. This is happening around the world for example with FGM. Not only is there much work with teaching, but the practice is condemn. 

Either you stand for Universal rights, or you do not stand for rights at all Veya

So you are also calling victims cowards now, because many are too afraid?

Wow about as low as it gets, especially, when you have no comprehension of what the victims of domestic violence go through and are too afraid to go to the Police. Even more so that you blame them and not their abusers. That they should also live with the consequences. It shows you have no comprehension of what you are talking about and victim blaming.

You are more concerned about defending poor beliefs, than helping the victims of domestic violence, marital rape etc. Many of which think is acceptable within the Islamic school of thought they followed. Many people not even Muslim are afraid to come forward. Do you have even the faintest clue how difficult it is for victims in these situations?
Seriously?


By helping condemn beliefs, we go a long way to helping support the victims being able to come forward, as well as support groups.

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Post by Syl on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:32 pm

Some sections of female society in this and other so called modern countries are still oppressed, I don't think there is any doubt about that.
FGM is still practiced, some women are treated like property, some still don't have the freedoms that are every womans right, but I don't think this has anything to do with that.

This potential right to ban is denying the woman even more of her free will......its all about Muslim women obviously, including turbans and crucifixes has to be done so as not to be seen to be discriminating, but it is discriminating, its a step backwards imo, not forwards.

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:03 pm

Thorin wrote:The hijab is not a religious requirement and is not even found within the Quran as a headscarf or compulsory that women cover their hair. Its a made up neoconservative Islamic form of oppression, that sees countless women forced to wear. Why should religions get a privilege on forms of dress to where at work? I could not go in wearing a bandanna to work. So why do we have to have inequality within the work place that places those religious be privileged above others?

I am glad they have done this, because the headscarf in Islam is based on the view that women are the cause of men's desires and that women are at fault. Its bullshit and such a misogyny forms of dress. Of which the hijab is and have no place within a progressive society.


I am against banning, but if people want to wear their religious wear, then, they have to respect a companies decision on dress code. They are not obligated to pander to ideological forms of oppression. When you work for a company, you sign a contract, to follow those rules.


Simple solution, find a job, that panders to such oppressive forms of dress.

Agree and although i do not wear a cross i would willingly stop wearing one to abide by the rules .

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:15 pm

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:

Yes I agree. But lots and lots of Muslim women do choose to wear it themselves.

I think they do, and SM who knows more than me on these matters says so too.
If its their own choice to wear a head covering I don't see any reason to deny them that choice.

There are such a lot of problems with giving one religion rights and not another . Such as wearing a crucifix or cross - both are worn as a symbol of ones belief so if a cross or crucifix is considered religious then so is the head scarf and also the Jewish head coverings . If we can't enforce a rule for all religions then it won't work .
I think its good we need to show equality for everyone , one religion is no more important than another .

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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:56 pm

We have a big Sikh community in my nearest town and they have an annual event which entails a lot of very big tough moustachioed guys in turbans parading in public with swords.

When I first saw it, the words of the Duke of Wellington as he reviewed the British regiments on the eve of the Battle of Waterloo crossed my mind: "I don't know what they will do to the enemy, but by God they frighten me!"

Memo to any "racism zealots" looking for a fight: I yield to no-one - but no-one - in my admiration for Sikhs. They are magnificent; among the world's greatest fighting men.

And I can say that having had the great privilege with serving alongside a Sikh RAF bomber pilot.
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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:09 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:We have a big Sikh community in my nearest town and they have an annual event which entails a lot of very big tough moustachioed guys in turbans parading in public with swords.

When I first saw it, the words of the Duke of Wellington as he reviewed the British regiments on the eve of the Battle of Waterloo crossed my mind: "I don't know what they will do to the enemy, but by God they frighten me!"

Memo to any "racism zealots" looking for a fight: I yield to no-one - but no-one - in my admiration for Sikhs. They are magnificent; among the world's greatest fighting men.

And I can say that having had the great privilege with serving alongside a Sikh RAF bomber pilot.


I have great respect for them as fighters and their record is quite exemplary.
However you would agree that in combat, their turbans, place them at greater risk of shrapnel to harm?
The turban is very much part of their identity, but it is not compulsory, especially in the sense of combat.
Many Sikh's practice their faith without a turban and out of combat, I see no harm in them not wearing this. For example on parade.
Do you not agree?

The point here is that if something is a choice. Then it should be a reasonable choice to chose not to wear. if you choose a career that sometimes requires you not to wear at times. The path you choose does not mean you should forsake the requirements needed to carry out that role. Ot that you gain privileges because of your beliefs.

No belief system should supersede the requirements of the job that you openly and actively want to do.

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:35 pm

Syl wrote:Some sections of female society in this and other so called modern countries are still oppressed, I don't think there is any doubt about that.
FGM is still practiced, some women are treated like property, some still don't have the freedoms that are every womans right, but I don't think this has anything to do with that.

This potential right to ban is denying the woman even more of her free will......its all about Muslim women obviously, including  turbans and crucifixes  has to be done so as not to be seen to be discriminating, but it is discriminating, its a step backwards imo, not forwards.


It has nothing to do with Free Will for Muslim women, but that those who claim to chose to wear. Should be privileged over other employees. 

Okay, if its a choice to wear the hijab. What is stopping them choosing not to wear, for the choice of job they have chosen?

Why does the job have to give them privileges based on their beliefs?

Would you allow a employee who believes in Nazism to wear a bandanna of the swastika?

Why do people continually defend people to have more rights than others within the work place based on a belief?

Either you stand for equality for all within the workplace or you believe in inequality.

Its such a contradiction in terms. When people claim the Hijab is a choice to wear and yet those who wear and claim its a choice. Refuse to remove the hijab when carrying out a job role. They are basically demanding that the company bows down to their beliefs. They are also by default by their actions claiming its not a choice and compulsory to wear.

Do you not see that?

The fact that people keep constantly ignoring that millions of Muslim women are actually being oppressed by being forced to wear is even worse. How is defending here, helping their plight?

Having a belief does not give you rights over anyone else and nor should this be the case within the work place. Even more so when many Muslim women are forced to wear. Its not a symbol of Free will for women, because many Muslim women, simply never even have that choice and its insulting to them, to even claim that it is.

If as they claim it is a choice to wear, then its not compulsory to wear and thus have no reason for them to claim they need to wear whilst in work Syl.

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:12 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:


See my last post

It didn't answer my question. Why should wedding rings be exempt from a ban on all jewellery/symbols.

Sentimental reasons - some people never take them off from the day they were married . I think a wedding band is not a religious symbol its saying a person is married only .

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:21 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I don't see why a company would want to ban such articles anyway, unless they're raging, militant atheists who like to control others. I see the sense of having a reasonable dress code, and rules against flamboyant clothing, but it's all a bit paranoid to ban any religious symbols.


They could be Christians, who hate Muslims.
Again there are many reasons that companies want a certain image.
Again I fail to see why anyone supports the hijab, when it is a symbol of oppression.

Does not anyone care that millions of Muslim women are oppressed with this?

I do  

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:44 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Thorin wrote:


They could be Christians, who hate Muslims.
Again there are many reasons that companies want a certain image.
Again I fail to see why anyone supports the hijab, when it is a symbol of oppression.

Does not anyone care that millions of Muslim women are oppressed with this?

I do   

Well Dibs, its nice to know you do care.
What disappoints me is not a single Liberal seems to care.

All I keep getting is excuses or worse a defense of this symbol of oppression.

Now the KKK are not obligated to wear the hood of their order.

How many would support, any of their members being allowed to wear this form of racism at work?

I bet not one of them would and yet they support a symbol of misogamy and even worse defend it.


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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:20 am

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It didn't answer my question. Why should wedding rings be exempt from a ban on all jewellery/symbols.

Sentimental reasons - some people never take them off from the day they were married . I think a wedding band is not a religious symbol its saying a person is married only .

It's still jewellery. If there's a ban on all jewellery, it should be included.

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Post by Guest on Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:39 am

I thought the ban was on headscarves and not jewellery ?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:42 am

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I thought the ban was on headscarves and not jewellery ?

It appears that companies can ban "religious" items of clothing, but that seems to include crucifixes, which aren't really clothes. I think they need to word it a bit better. I would say it doesn't include crosses, just crucifixes.


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Post by HoratioTarr on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:05 am

Syl wrote:Some sections of female society in this and other so called modern countries are still oppressed, I don't think there is any doubt about that.
FGM is still practiced, some women are treated like property, some still don't have the freedoms that are every womans right, but I don't think this has anything to do with that.

This potential right to ban is denying the woman even more of her free will......its all about Muslim women obviously, including  turbans and crucifixes  has to be done so as not to be seen to be discriminating, but it is discriminating, its a step backwards imo, not forwards.

The continuing tradition of FGM comes from the women.  They perpetuate it.   It's done to the mothers so they do it to their daughters.   It's so deeply ingrained that I doubt it'll ever be eradicated in the near future.   It's like conditioning, and that's hard to break.
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Post by Syl on Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:24 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Syl wrote:

I think they do, and SM who knows more than me on these matters says so too.
If its their own choice to wear a head covering I don't see any reason to deny them that choice.

There are such a lot of problems with giving one religion rights and not another . Such as wearing a crucifix or cross - both are worn as a symbol of ones belief so if a cross or crucifix is considered religious  then so is the head scarf and also the Jewish head coverings . If we can't enforce a rule for all religions then it won't work .
I think its good we need to show equality for everyone , one religion is no more important than another .

I agree that laws should treat everyone equally Vod, I just don't see the need to ban the above items at all, unless it interferes with the job you are doing.

I definitely have issues with the full face covering at work, but a headscarf doesn't hide who a person is, neither does a cross or a turban, if people want to judge someone for something they may wear that's their problem, I don't see why the person should be stopped from wearing it though.

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Post by Syl on Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:32 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Syl wrote:Some sections of female society in this and other so called modern countries are still oppressed, I don't think there is any doubt about that.
FGM is still practiced, some women are treated like property, some still don't have the freedoms that are every womans right, but I don't think this has anything to do with that.

This potential right to ban is denying the woman even more of her free will......its all about Muslim women obviously, including  turbans and crucifixes  has to be done so as not to be seen to be discriminating, but it is discriminating, its a step backwards imo, not forwards.

The continuing tradition of FGM comes from the women.  They perpetuate it.   It's done to the mothers so they do it to their daughters.   It's so deeply ingrained that I doubt it'll ever be eradicated in the near future.   It's like conditioning, and that's hard to break.

Its hard to believe that some women want to inflict a lifetime of pain and misery on their own daughters isn't it?

The conditioning may be hard to break, so the law should break it for them. I find it pathetic and disgusting that thousands of cases are thought to happen in the UK, ...either performed here or sent away, often in the school holidays to have it done.....last I read no one had been found guilty of enabling or carrying out this practice, even though in some communities its rife.

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect/female-genital-mutilation-fgm/fgm-facts-statistics/

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:34 pm

Syl wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

There are such a lot of problems with giving one religion rights and not another . Such as wearing a crucifix or cross - both are worn as a symbol of ones belief so if a cross or crucifix is considered religious  then so is the head scarf and also the Jewish head coverings . If we can't enforce a rule for all religions then it won't work .
I think its good we need to show equality for everyone , one religion is no more important than another .


I agree that laws should treat everyone equally Vod, I just don't see the need to ban the above items at all, unless it interferes with the job you are doing.

I definitely have issues with the full face covering at work, but a headscarf doesn't hide who a person is, neither does a cross or a turban, if people want to judge someone for something they may wear that's their problem, I don't see why the person should be stopped from wearing it though.

Neither do I - within reason. I agree about face coverings and burkas, but unless someone is using their religion in an inappropriate way, I don't see that wearing a headscarf, turban, or crucifix is harmful to anyone, even if one doesn't like them much. If such items are "scary" to customers or other staff, that's a bit silly.

I used to work at a place where two chaps wore turbans, and they were delightful - their turbans didn't make them incapable of doing their jobs or anything.

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Post by Syl on Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:36 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Thorin wrote:


They could be Christians, who hate Muslims.
Again there are many reasons that companies want a certain image.
Again I fail to see why anyone supports the hijab, when it is a symbol of oppression.

Does not anyone care that millions of Muslim women are oppressed with this?

I do   

I do too, I imagine most people here care.
I don't see that modern Muslim women who are going out to work supporting themselves, mixing in western society and living fulfilled lives in this country are wearing the headscarf because they are oppressed by wearing it....if its their choice to wear it why shouldn't they?

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Post by Syl on Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:48 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:


I agree that laws should treat everyone equally Vod, I just don't see the need to ban the above items at all, unless it interferes with the job you are doing.

I definitely have issues with the full face covering at work, but a headscarf doesn't hide who a person is, neither does a cross or a turban, if people want to judge someone for something they may wear that's their problem, I don't see why the person should be stopped from wearing it though.

Neither do I - within reason. I agree about face coverings and burkas, but unless someone is using their religion in an inappropriate way, I don't see that wearing a headscarf, turban, or crucifix is harmful to anyone, even if one doesn't like them much. If such items are "scary" to customers or other staff, that's a bit silly.

I used to work at a place where two chaps wore turbans, and they were delightful - their turbans didn't make them incapable of doing their jobs or anything.

I think turbans and crucifixes have been included in this just so the ban on scarves wont be singling out Muslims.

I'm not religious, but if someone does want to wear something harmless, either for their faith or their modesty (and till recently it was socially acceptable)  that brings them comfort and its not interfering with their job, I just don't see why they could be told to stop.

I also imagine if the rule was enforced throughout the NHS there would be chaos. I think every female optician in my local practice wears a headscarf.

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Post by magica on Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:55 pm

Many Muslims don't wear scarves, maybe they feel empowered by not having to.

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Post by Guest on Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:32 pm

Syl wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

I do   

I do too, I imagine most people here care.
I don't see that modern Muslim women who are going out to work supporting themselves, mixing in western society and living fulfilled lives in this country are wearing the headscarf because they are oppressed by wearing it....if its their choice to wear it why shouldn't they?

They should have that choice but i think if companies want to be fair then it has to include head scarves crosses crucifixes and any other religious symbol . It has to be fair or rules are pointless .

I think the women who wear the head scarves are doing it show their religion , if they are then they must abide by the rules and take them off in the work place .
Just my opinion .

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Post by Guest on Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:36 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I thought the ban was on headscarves and not jewellery ?

It appears that companies can ban "religious" items of clothing, but that seems to include crucifixes, which aren't really clothes. I think they need to word it a bit better. I would say it doesn't include crosses, just crucifixes.


mmm that's a bit dodgy because a cross is still a religious symbol so should be included too .
What reason is behind the ban does it explain. I have no time to read up on it as I am really busy with my dad settling back into the care home and just popping in and out as i can .


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Post by Syl on Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:13 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Syl wrote:

I do too, I imagine most people here care.
I don't see that modern Muslim women who are going out to work supporting themselves, mixing in western society and living fulfilled lives in this country are wearing the headscarf because they are oppressed by wearing it....if its their choice to wear it why shouldn't they?

They should have that choice but i think if companies want to be fair then it has to include head scarves crosses crucifixes and any other religious symbol . It has to be fair or rules are pointless .

I think the women who wear the head scarves are doing it show their religion , if they are then they must abide by the rules and take them off in the work place .
Just my opinion .

its an opinion many agree with....one that legally companies can now insist on if they so choose.

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Post by Syl on Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:15 pm

magica wrote:Many Muslims don't wear scarves, maybe they feel empowered by not having to.


Good point Mags, it all comes down to choice really....women being able to choose what they wear is empowering in itself.

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Post by magica on Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:38 pm

Syl wrote:
magica wrote:Many Muslims don't wear scarves, maybe they feel empowered by not having to.


Good point Mags, it all comes down to choice really....women being able to choose what they wear is empowering in itself.

It is Syl. In their country they have to wear them, so maybe here and in Europe,they have a choice.
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Post by Guest on Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:03 pm

Thorin wrote:
Syl wrote:Some sections of female society in this and other so called modern countries are still oppressed, I don't think there is any doubt about that.
FGM is still practiced, some women are treated like property, some still don't have the freedoms that are every womans right, but I don't think this has anything to do with that.

This potential right to ban is denying the woman even more of her free will......its all about Muslim women obviously, including  turbans and crucifixes  has to be done so as not to be seen to be discriminating, but it is discriminating, its a step backwards imo, not forwards.


It has nothing to do with Free Will for Muslim women, but that those who claim to chose to wear. Should be privileged over other employees. 

Okay, if its a choice to wear the hijab. What is stopping them choosing not to wear, for the choice of job they have chosen?

Why does the job have to give them privileges based on their beliefs?

Would you allow a employee who believes in Nazism to wear a bandanna of the swastika?

Why do people continually defend people to have more rights than others within the work place based on a belief?

Either you stand for equality for all within the workplace or you believe in inequality.

Its such a contradiction in terms. When people claim the Hijab is a choice to wear and yet those who wear and claim its a choice. Refuse to remove the hijab when carrying out a job role. They are basically demanding that the company bows down to their beliefs. They are also by default by their actions claiming its not a choice and compulsory to wear.

Do you not see that?

The fact that people keep constantly ignoring that millions of Muslim women are actually being oppressed by being forced to wear is even worse. How is defending here, helping their plight?

Having a belief does not give you rights over anyone else and nor should this be the case within the work place. Even more so when many Muslim women are forced to wear. Its not a symbol of Free will for women, because many Muslim women, simply never even have that choice and its insulting to them, to even claim that it is.

If as they claim it is a choice to wear, then its not compulsory to wear and thus have no reason for them to claim they need to wear whilst in work Syl.


????

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Post by Syl on Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:06 pm

Missed this one Thor...logging out now, but will definitely come back tomorrow and read it thoroughly.
Laters. x

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Post by Guest on Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 pm

Syl wrote:Missed this one Thor...logging out now, but will definitely come back tomorrow and read it thoroughly.
Laters. x


Have a good evening Syl, all the best

x

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Post by Syl on Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:48 pm

Thorin wrote:
Thorin wrote:


It has nothing to do with Free Will for Muslim women, but that those who claim to chose to wear. Should be privileged over other employees. 

Okay, if its a choice to wear the hijab. What is stopping them choosing not to wear, for the choice of job they have chosen?

Why does the job have to give them privileges based on their beliefs?

Would you allow a employee who believes in Nazism to wear a bandanna of the swastika?

Why do people continually defend people to have more rights than others within the work place based on a belief?

Either you stand for equality for all within the workplace or you believe in inequality.

Its such a contradiction in terms. When people claim the Hijab is a choice to wear and yet those who wear and claim its a choice. Refuse to remove the hijab when carrying out a job role. They are basically demanding that the company bows down to their beliefs. They are also by default by their actions claiming its not a choice and compulsory to wear.

Do you not see that?

The fact that people keep constantly ignoring that millions of Muslim women are actually being oppressed by being forced to wear is even worse. How is defending here, helping their plight?

Having a belief does not give you rights over anyone else and nor should this be the case within the work place. Even more so when many Muslim women are forced to wear. Its not a symbol of Free will for women, because many Muslim women, simply never even have that choice and its insulting to them, to even claim that it is.

If as they claim it is a choice to wear, then its not compulsory to wear and thus have no reason for them to claim they need to wear whilst in work Syl.


????

I think there are two points Thor.
1.....you do believe the head covering or hijab is a sign of oppression,  perhaps for some it is, but  I tend to believe from  what I have heard and listened to that it is the woman who chooses to wear it......so if that's the case I don't see why people should object.

2....unless a job has a very strict and precise dress code,  or any scarf would be considered a hazard, why should a workplace object?
Western women are free to choose their clothes, trousers, skirts, mini, maxi.......it's all just how a woman chooses to express herself and how she feels comfortable.

If it's worn for religious purposes....so what? To ban the hijab then the turban, the crucifix, the head coverings or wigs a Jewish woman may wear.....they will all be included, and still some won't be satisfied....this imo is the real oppression,  it's eroding free choice bit by bit.

Free choice obviously does not include plastering yourself with hate symbols or turning up in bra and pants.....obviously people who can't tell the difference wouldn't be holding a responsible job down in the first place. What a Face

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:34 am

Syl wrote:
Thorin wrote:


????

I think there are two points Thor.
1.....you do believe the head covering or hijab is a sign of oppression,  perhaps for some it is, but  I tend to believe from  what I have heard and listened to that it is the woman who chooses to wear it......so if that's the case I don't see why people should object.

2....unless a job has a very strict and precise dress code,  or any scarf would be considered a hazard, why should a workplace object?
Western women are free to choose their clothes, trousers, skirts, mini, maxi.......it's all just how a woman chooses to express herself and how she feels comfortable.

If it's worn for religious purposes....so what? To ban the hijab then the turban, the crucifix, the head coverings or wigs a Jewish woman may wear.....they will all be included, and still some won't be satisfied....this imo is the real oppression,  it's eroding free choice bit by bit.

Free choice obviously does not include plastering yourself with hate symbols or turning up in bra and pants.....obviously people who can't tell the difference wouldn't be holding a responsible job down in the first place. What a Face


1) How can it be a choice based off the reasons I provided above?


2) Again many aspects of clothing are banned by companies, is it then discrimination for banning them?


3) Do religious people need to wear these aspects of their faith to work? 


No


4) The hijab is a symbol of oppression and hate, so why do you support this?


You avoided everything I posted to you




It has nothing to do with Free Will for Muslim women, but that those who claim to chose to wear. Should be privileged over other employees. 


Okay, if its a choice to wear the hijab. What is stopping them choosing not to wear, for the choice of job they have chosen?


Why does the job have to give them privileges based on their beliefs?


Would you allow a employee who believes in Nazism to wear a bandanna of the swastika?


Why do people continually defend people to have more rights than others within the work place based on a belief?


Either you stand for equality for all within the workplace or you believe in inequality.


Its such a contradiction in terms. When people claim the Hijab is a choice to wear and yet those who wear and claim its a choice. Refuse to remove the hijab when carrying out a job role. They are basically demanding that the company bows down to their beliefs. They are also by default by their actions claiming its not a choice and compulsory to wear.


Do you not see that?


The fact that people keep constantly ignoring that millions of Muslim women are actually being oppressed by being forced to wear is even worse. How is defending here, helping their plight?


Having a belief does not give you rights over anyone else and nor should this be the case within the work place. Even more so when many Muslim women are forced to wear. Its not a symbol of Free will for women, because many Muslim women, simply never even have that choice and its insulting to them, to even claim that it is.


If as they claim it is a choice to wear, then its not compulsory to wear and thus have no reason for them to claim they need to wear whilst in work Syl.

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Post by nicko on Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:18 am

I always thought they were too idle to do their hair !
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Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:42 am

But what is the primary reason for wanting nobody to wear religious symbols? Is it because companies feel that they won't "fit in" with other employees? Is it because they feel that someone in a headscarf will appear intimidating to customers, or that the customers won't be able to relate to them? I can see a certain sense in some of that. I guess a lot of people feel they wouldn't be able to relate to a woman wearing a burka, for example. It seems to me to be a matter of degree though.

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Post by Syl on Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:41 pm

Thorin wrote:
Syl wrote:

I think there are two points Thor.
1.....you do believe the head covering or hijab is a sign of oppression,  perhaps for some it is, but  I tend to believe from  what I have heard and listened to that it is the woman who chooses to wear it......so if that's the case I don't see why people should object.

2....unless a job has a very strict and precise dress code,  or any scarf would be considered a hazard, why should a workplace object?
Western women are free to choose their clothes, trousers, skirts, mini, maxi.......it's all just how a woman chooses to express herself and how she feels comfortable.

If it's worn for religious purposes....so what? To ban the hijab then the turban, the crucifix, the head coverings or wigs a Jewish woman may wear.....they will all be included, and still some won't be satisfied....this imo is the real oppression,  it's eroding free choice bit by bit.

Free choice obviously does not include plastering yourself with hate symbols or turning up in bra and pants.....obviously people who can't tell the difference wouldn't be holding a responsible job down in the first place. What a Face


1) How can it be a choice based off the reasons I provided above?


2) Again many aspects of clothing are banned by companies, is it then discrimination for banning them?


3) Do religious people need to wear these aspects of their faith to work? 


No


4) The hijab is a symbol of oppression and hate, so why do you support this?


You avoided everything I posted to you




It has nothing to do with Free Will for Muslim women, but that those who claim to chose to wear. Should be privileged over other employees. 


Okay, if its a choice to wear the hijab. What is stopping them choosing not to wear, for the choice of job they have chosen?


Why does the job have to give them privileges based on their beliefs?


Would you allow a employee who believes in Nazism to wear a bandanna of the swastika?


Why do people continually defend people to have more rights than others within the work place based on a belief?


Either you stand for equality for all within the workplace or you believe in inequality.


Its such a contradiction in terms. When people claim the Hijab is a choice to wear and yet those who wear and claim its a choice. Refuse to remove the hijab when carrying out a job role. They are basically demanding that the company bows down to their beliefs. They are also by default by their actions claiming its not a choice and compulsory to wear.


Do you not see that?


The fact that people keep constantly ignoring that millions of Muslim women are actually being oppressed by being forced to wear is even worse. How is defending here, helping their plight?


Having a belief does not give you rights over anyone else and nor should this be the case within the work place. Even more so when many Muslim women are forced to wear. Its not a symbol of Free will for women, because many Muslim women, simply never even have that choice and its insulting to them, to even claim that it is.


If as they claim it is a choice to wear, then its not compulsory to wear and thus have no reason for them to claim they need to wear whilst in work Syl.

I did answer your relevant points Thor, but I feel I am repeating myself now.

The way I think is simple.....IF a persons choice of dress is not extreme, not a security risk or a health hazard, not flouting the uniform that employers are expected to wear, not preventing them doing their job, and not offensive to social standards (that would include turning up in bra and pants or wearing offensive logos on clothes including swastikas) I think in order to get the best out of employers its in everyones interest to not encroach on their personal freedom re headscarf, turbans, crosses , star of david, wigs, long sleeves, etc etc and anything else that might be considered offensive to someone somewhere.

This is not giving any particular group advantages over another particular group, its embracing ALL groups.

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Post by Syl on Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:47 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:But what is the primary reason for wanting nobody to wear religious symbols? Is it because companies feel that they won't "fit in" with other employees? Is it because they feel that someone in a headscarf will appear intimidating to customers, or that the customers won't be able to relate to them? I can see a certain sense in some of that. I guess a lot of people feel they wouldn't be able to relate to a woman wearing a burka, for example. It seems to me to be a matter of degree though.

I agree its a matter of degree in re to Muslim dress. The burka is a lot more extreme than the hijab.....I personally don't think a full face covering should be allowed at work, it IS intimidating to some people and its not really what our society is about...deliberately concealing your face from the world.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:49 pm

Syl wrote:
Thorin wrote:


1) How can it be a choice based off the reasons I provided above?


2) Again many aspects of clothing are banned by companies, is it then discrimination for banning them?


3) Do religious people need to wear these aspects of their faith to work? 


No


4) The hijab is a symbol of oppression and hate, so why do you support this?


You avoided everything I posted to you




It has nothing to do with Free Will for Muslim women, but that those who claim to chose to wear. Should be privileged over other employees. 


Okay, if its a choice to wear the hijab. What is stopping them choosing not to wear, for the choice of job they have chosen?


Why does the job have to give them privileges based on their beliefs?


Would you allow a employee who believes in Nazism to wear a bandanna of the swastika?


Why do people continually defend people to have more rights than others within the work place based on a belief?


Either you stand for equality for all within the workplace or you believe in inequality.


Its such a contradiction in terms. When people claim the Hijab is a choice to wear and yet those who wear and claim its a choice. Refuse to remove the hijab when carrying out a job role. They are basically demanding that the company bows down to their beliefs. They are also by default by their actions claiming its not a choice and compulsory to wear.


Do you not see that?


The fact that people keep constantly ignoring that millions of Muslim women are actually being oppressed by being forced to wear is even worse. How is defending here, helping their plight?


Having a belief does not give you rights over anyone else and nor should this be the case within the work place. Even more so when many Muslim women are forced to wear. Its not a symbol of Free will for women, because many Muslim women, simply never even have that choice and its insulting to them, to even claim that it is.


If as they claim it is a choice to wear, then its not compulsory to wear and thus have no reason for them to claim they need to wear whilst in work Syl.

I did answer your relevant points Thor, but I feel I am repeating myself now.

The way I think is simple.....IF a persons choice of dress is not extreme, not a security risk or a health hazard, not flouting the uniform that employers are expected to wear, not preventing them doing their job, and not offensive to social standards (that would include turning up in bra and pants or wearing offensive logos on clothes including swastikas) I think in order to get the best out of employers its in everyones interest to not encroach on their personal freedom re headscarf, turbans, crosses , star of david, wigs, long sleeves, etc etc and anything else that might be considered offensive to someone somewhere.

This is not giving any particular group advantages over another particular group, its embracing ALL groups.


You failed to answer anything syl, but skipped around everything

How and why should the company pander to the religious needs of people?

You are they to work and that does not give licence for people to demand they be able to wear religious clothing. Its a privilige.

Even more so as stated, by saying its a choice to wear, then its not compulsary is it?

Now try again

1) How can it be a choice based off the reasons I provided above?

2) Again many aspects of clothing are banned by companies, is it then discrimination for banning them?

3) Do religious people need to wear these aspects of their faith to work? 

No

4) The hijab is a symbol of oppression and hate, so why do you support this?

You avoided everything I posted to you


It has nothing to do with Free Will for Muslim women, but that those who claim to chose to wear. Should be privileged over other employees. 

Okay, if its a choice to wear the hijab. What is stopping them choosing not to wear, for the choice of job they have chosen?

Why does the job have to give them privileges based on their beliefs?

Would you allow a employee who believes in Nazism to wear a bandanna of the swastika?

Why do people continually defend people to have more rights than others within the work place based on a belief?

Either you stand for equality for all within the workplace or you believe in inequality.

Its such a contradiction in terms. When people claim the Hijab is a choice to wear and yet those who wear and claim its a choice. Refuse to remove the hijab when carrying out a job role. They are basically demanding that the company bows down to their beliefs. They are also by default by their actions claiming its not a choice and compulsory to wear.

Do you not see that?

The fact that people keep constantly ignoring that millions of Muslim women are actually being oppressed by being forced to wear is even worse. How is defending here, helping their plight?

Having a belief does not give you rights over anyone else and nor should this be the case within the work place. Even more so when many Muslim women are forced to wear. Its not a symbol of Free will for women, because many Muslim women, simply never even have that choice and its insulting to them, to even claim that it is.

If as they claim it is a choice to wear, then its not compulsory to wear and thus have no reason for them to claim they need to wear whilst in work Syl.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:55 pm

I will also add, you would be hard pressed to find many offices that allow people to wear hats, yet you want to make an exception for religious head wear.

That is inequality, the rule should apply to all employees.

The same happens with footwear for example, like no trainers.

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Post by Syl on Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:24 pm

Thorin wrote:
Syl wrote:

I did answer your relevant points Thor, but I feel I am repeating myself now.

The way I think is simple.....IF a persons choice of dress is not extreme, not a security risk or a health hazard, not flouting the uniform that employers are expected to wear, not preventing them doing their job, and not offensive to social standards (that would include turning up in bra and pants or wearing offensive logos on clothes including swastikas) I think in order to get the best out of employers its in everyones interest to not encroach on their personal freedom re headscarf, turbans, crosses , star of david, wigs, long sleeves, etc etc and anything else that might be considered offensive to someone somewhere.

This is not giving any particular group advantages over another particular group, its embracing ALL groups.


You failed to answer anything syl, but skipped around everything

How and why should the company pander to the religious needs of people?

You are they to work and that does not give licence for people to demand they be able to wear religious clothing. Its a privilige.

Even more so as stated, by saying its a choice to wear, then its not compulsary is it?

Now try again

I will try.... IF you stop treating me like a naughty schoolgirl.  l: Rolling Eyes

1) How can it be a choice based off the reasons I provided above?

2) Again many aspects of clothing are banned by companies, is it then discrimination for banning them?

3) Do religious people need to wear these aspects of their faith to work? 

No

Why do you think it isn't the choice of a person to wear a scarf, cross, turban, and so on? No one is forcing them....they may wear certain items because of cultural or religious reasons, but they CHOOSE to do so.

4) The hijab is a symbol of oppression and hate, so why do you support this?

In this country I don't agree that in the majority of cases that's the norm.

You avoided everything I posted to you

No....I didn't.  tongue


It has nothing to do with Free Will for Muslim women, but that those who claim to chose to wear. Should be privileged over other employees. 

Muslim items are not the only ones allowed/not allowed. That's the point with this new law....all religious items are being treated equally.

Okay, if its a choice to wear the hijab. What is stopping them choosing not to wear, for the choice of job they have chosen?

Well you may then say why should women choose to wear bras, or tights. or trousers?....why just pick on one item of clothing?

Why does the job have to give them privileges based on their beliefs?

I have answered that in depth in another post.. but .if the article does not interfere in any way with the job they are doing, if its not flouting the uniform rules...whats the problem.

Would you allow a employee who believes in Nazism to wear a bandanna of the swastika?

Answered that already. read my posts.

Why do people continually defend people to have more rights than others within the work place based on a belief?

They don't....hence the new law.

Either you stand for equality for all within the workplace or you believe in inequality.

See above.

Its such a contradiction in terms. When people claim the Hijab is a choice to wear and yet those who wear and claim its a choice. Refuse to remove the hijab when carrying out a job role. They are basically demanding that the company bows down to their beliefs. They are also by default by their actions claiming its not a choice and compulsory to wear.

If someone feels more comfortable in a particular item of harmless clothing, that is not interfering with their job or anyone else...why ban it?

Do you not see that?

The fact that people keep constantly ignoring that millions of Muslim women are actually being oppressed by being forced to wear is even worse. How is defending here, helping their plight?

I don't see it that way....not in this country anyway. The women who work are modern independent women, IF they are oppressed there is help for them in the UK...a scarf is the least of their problems if that's the case.

Having a belief does not give you rights over anyone else and nor should this be the case within the work place. Even more so when many Muslim women are forced to wear. Its not a symbol of Free will for women, because many Muslim women, simply never even have that choice and its insulting to them, to even claim that it is.

Well the one Muslim woman on here disagrees 100% with that view...the woman (and the men) I have heard speak also disagree with that view. I'm not an authority, but I do listen to people.

If as they claim it is a choice to wear, then its not compulsory to wear and thus have no reason for them to claim they need to wear whilst in work Syl.

Because thats their choice, and imo its a harmless one. Employers and employees are in a partnership insofar it should be give and take on both sides to make a successful happy environment where people can contribute the best they can in the job they do.

I think we are both repeating ourselves now Thor. I appreciate you feel strongly about this, and you put up a good argument, but we are seeing it from different angles.....so I don't think we will ever agree on this.
Good debate though, so thank you. x

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Post by Syl on Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:37 pm

Thorin wrote:I will also add, you would be hard pressed to find many offices that allow people to wear hats, yet you want to make an exception for religious head wear.

That is inequality, the rule should apply to all employees.

The same happens with footwear for example, like no trainers.

I will add this then....I said before, in my local opticians ( a very large well known one) almost all the lady opticians wear a hijab. If it was suddenly banned, and the women were uncomfortable to be without it what would happen.
1 They would leave
2 Or their work would suffer
3 the many years of training would be wasted.

This is one example...think throughout the NHS or other big businesses.....some very highly paid and qualified women choose to wear the head covering, whether that be for personal or religious reasons is irrelevant.
Any company which chooses to enforce this rule will limit the people applying for the jobs....bad for business in the long run.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:43 pm

Great just wrote a long reply and it went.

So basically you are claiming nonsense over comfort. Well most people cannot turn up in clothes they feel comfortable with. Like shorts, vests and a baseball cap. So they have to abide by the company dress policy. So your argument on that is nonsense Syl.
Again its a privilege which means you wear in your own time, not work time. As again, if its a choice, then its not compulsory and thus they have no need to wear whilst at work. 

I already posted an article showing that many women here are forced to wear and what is even worse. Is that many who do claim to choose to wear are brainwashed with lies. That they are at fault for the sexual advances of men and that they should cover up to deter them. Which is completely ineffective. Its just a made up invented misogynistic form of control of women by men and you are defending that. That is not being free or independent but controlled to the beliefs made up by men. As no where within the Quran will you find that women have to cover their hair.

Sexy defended Muslim women continuing to be oppressed around the world. So I would not go there as making her as a standard to follow. As you saw, I proposed what Muslim women could do for those forced to wear. To prove its a choice. That they in solidarity take off the Hijab in protest to countries that force this on Muslim women. To then revert back to wearing, once the laws change. She down right refused to back this. That tells you everything wrong about religions. That even where she is supposed to be a progressive Muslim, she will not even challenge poor beliefs. Of which the belief to wear the Hijab is.

Hence why people stand and defend this regressive and insulting garment, that controls women, is not allowing for independence or free will at all.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:45 pm

Syl wrote:
Thorin wrote:I will also add, you would be hard pressed to find many offices that allow people to wear hats, yet you want to make an exception for religious head wear.

That is inequality, the rule should apply to all employees.

The same happens with footwear for example, like no trainers.

I will add this then....I said before, in my local opticians ( a very large well known one) almost all the lady opticians wear a hijab. If it was suddenly banned, and the women were uncomfortable to be without it what would happen.
1 They would leave
2 Or their work would suffer
3 the many years of training would be wasted.

This is one example...think throughout the NHS or other big businesses.....some very highly paid and qualified women choose to wear the head covering, whether that be for personal or religious reasons is irrelevant.
Any company which chooses to enforce this rule will limit the people applying for the jobs....bad for business in the long run.


Tough, they do not need to wear at work as again if its a choice. Its not compulsory to wear.
You want me to feel sorry, that they are being freed from a misogynistic form of control invented by men?
I would be celebrating their freedom. This is what you fail to grasp Syl

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Post by Syl on Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:53 pm

Thorin wrote:Great just wrote a long reply and it went.

So basically you are claiming nonsense over comfort. Well most people cannot turn up in clothes they feel comfortable with. Like shorts, vests and a baseball cap. So they have to abide by the company dress policy. So your argument on that is nonsense Syl.
Again its a privilege which means you wear in your own time, not work time. As again, if its a choice, then its not compulsory and thus they have no need to wear whilst at work. 

I already posted an article showing that many women here are forced to wear and what is even worse. Is that many who do claim to choose to wear are brainwashed with lies. That they are at fault for the sexual advances of men and that they should cover up to deter them. Which is completely ineffective. Its just a made up invented misogynistic form of control of women by men and you are defending that. That is not being free or independent but controlled to the beliefs made up by men. As no where within the Quran will you find that women have to cover their hair.

Sexy defended Muslim women continuing to be oppressed around the world. So I would not go there as making her as a standard to follow. As you saw, I proposed what Muslim women could do for those forced to wear. To prove its a choice. That they in solidarity take off the Hijab in protest to countries that force this on Muslim women. To then revert back to wearing, once the laws change. She down right refused to back this. That tells you everything wrong about religions. That even where she is supposed to be a progressive Muslim, she will not even challenge poor beliefs. Of which the belief to wear the Hijab is.

Hence why people stand and defend this regressive and insulting garment, that controls women, is not allowing for independence or free will at all.

Its so annoying when a post gets lost in the ether Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 2396444674 ...and why are they always the long ones?.... you can type a lot faster than me...so look on the bright side. Laughing

I just think you and I are looking at this from polar opposite viewpoints Thor. I am prepared to believe that you do have some good points, but I still think in many cases Muslim women choose to wear, and are not forced to wear a scarf.
You don't agree with that....I hope you are wrong and I am right, but all I know is the modern Muslim women that I hear speak about it say its choice....I concede that maybe the women who don't speak are the oppressed ones.

I wish more Muslims entered into forum debates, it would solve a lot of arguments about them. Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 2984306523

Have to go...laters. x

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:59 pm

Syl wrote:
Thorin wrote:Great just wrote a long reply and it went.

So basically you are claiming nonsense over comfort. Well most people cannot turn up in clothes they feel comfortable with. Like shorts, vests and a baseball cap. So they have to abide by the company dress policy. So your argument on that is nonsense Syl.
Again its a privilege which means you wear in your own time, not work time. As again, if its a choice, then its not compulsory and thus they have no need to wear whilst at work. 

I already posted an article showing that many women here are forced to wear and what is even worse. Is that many who do claim to choose to wear are brainwashed with lies. That they are at fault for the sexual advances of men and that they should cover up to deter them. Which is completely ineffective. Its just a made up invented misogynistic form of control of women by men and you are defending that. That is not being free or independent but controlled to the beliefs made up by men. As no where within the Quran will you find that women have to cover their hair.

Sexy defended Muslim women continuing to be oppressed around the world. So I would not go there as making her as a standard to follow. As you saw, I proposed what Muslim women could do for those forced to wear. To prove its a choice. That they in solidarity take off the Hijab in protest to countries that force this on Muslim women. To then revert back to wearing, once the laws change. She down right refused to back this. That tells you everything wrong about religions. That even where she is supposed to be a progressive Muslim, she will not even challenge poor beliefs. Of which the belief to wear the Hijab is.

Hence why people stand and defend this regressive and insulting garment, that controls women, is not allowing for independence or free will at all.

Its so annoying when a post gets lost in the ether Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 2396444674 ...and why are they always the long ones?.... you can type a lot faster than me...so look on the bright side. Laughing

I just think you and I are looking at this from polar opposite viewpoints Thor. I am prepared to believe that you do have some good points, but I still think in many cases Muslim women choose to wear, and are not forced to wear a scarf.
You don't agree with that....I hope you are wrong and I am right, but all I know is the modern Muslim women that I hear speak about it say its choice....I concede that maybe the women who don't speak are the oppressed ones.

I wish more Muslims entered into forum debates, it would solve a lot of arguments about them.  Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 2984306523

Have to go...laters. x


Sorry Syl. I am never going to defend an oppressive form of dress that was invented to control women.
To me it denies freedom and independence.
There is two Muslims on this forum Zack and Sexy.
Some Muslim women do claim its a choice, but have been conditioned to believe so. As I have shown its not really a choice to wear, but the doctrine that they follow. That makes them believe its required to wear, as they are at fault for the advances of men and that it will displease Allah if they do not. Thus fear is played on the vulnerabilities of those who fear being punished in their belief of the after life.

Enjoy your afternoon

x

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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:55 pm

nicko wrote:I always thought they were too idle to do their hair !

Like her. She's classy

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:27 pm

At University of Vermont
What Kinds Of Women Wear Head Coverings?!

Just about everyone.

Another excellent question! With the rise of Islamophobia in the U.S. and other parts of the world, I have seen a lot of hatred toward Muslims all over social media (Hey Donald Trump!). One of the things that irked me most was the criticism of Muslim women wearing their hijabs--veils that cover their head and chests. Some of my peers believe that is a sign of their oppression by males in Middle Eastern societies, others just think it's plain absurd. So I decided to investigate if any other religious women also wear something similar to a hijab. Here are some religious women donning their head covering:
1) Catholic Women

Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 635890234678331634-1249419322_CatholicWomen

Many Catholic women are encouraged to wear a head covering according to Sacred Scripture. This is especially important when attending Mass.
2) Sikh Women

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A Sikh woman's heading covering is supposed to protect her grace. Sikh males also keep their head covered in a different style, usually with a turban.
3) Jewish Women

Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 6358902436227207341614947094_JewishWomen

It is common within the Orthodox Jewish faith for women to cover their hair once they have gotten married in order to maintain modesty. In more recent times, many Orthodox Jewish women wear wigs.
4) Hindu Women

Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 635890244882245071865710085_HinduWoman

A ghoonghat is a type of head covering that many Hindu women wear as a mark of respect, both when they put it on and take it off. For example, when meeting an elderly male family members, it is proper for women to pull their ghoonghat off.
5) Buddhist Women

Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 6358902472322458271004221177_Buddhist%20Woman

While there perhaps is no scriptural law requiring or implying Buddhist women to wear a head covering, it has become accustomed to do so in certain cultures showing that this practice can stem from a variety of sources, not just religious doctrine.
6) Muslim Women

Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 635890247686159177-1626696995_Muslim%20Woman

Surprise! There are Muslim women in the world that wear head coverings for a variety of positive reasons.


https://www.theodysseyonline.com/what-kinds-of-women-wear-head-coverings





And I'm betting the emotional cripples who are trying to tell women what to wear again, won't have the gall to tell a Sikh man to take of his turban.

Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses  and turbans in the workplace. - Page 4 Sikh-man-with-a-massive-turban-and-a-sword-in-golden-temple-amritsar-BG076M

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:22 pm

So she investigated to see if other women wore and failed to investigate the reasons for the hijab, which oppresses countless Muslim women forced to wear. Even worse that the belief around wearing, is formed from misogamy to control women.

Nobody is telling people what to wear, but what is acceptable to wear within the workplace.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:29 pm

A letter of gratitude to Muslim feminists who defend the hijab and niqab and are social media jihadis



Dear Muslimaat (Islamist Muslim women),


I don’t have words to express my gratitude and appreciation for your noble battle against evil. Your #MuslimahPride movement against #Femen was a slap on the collective face of Western imperialists who believe that Muslim women can’t fight for a cause. It was also a resounding reminder for the rest of the world that you have what it takes to spark a revolution. What the ignorant world does not realise is that once you have the permission of your husbands, fathers, brothers, uncles, the approval of your neighbours, in-laws, their relatives and the consent of your spiritual guardians, their God and their scriptures, you can be quite the rebels.

It takes a lot of courage to ridicule something that is already taboo where you live. It takes volumes of bravery and valour to bow down to the status quo, and toe the lines that have been forced upon you. It takes unbelievable amounts of gallantry to act out a script that someone else has written for you. And it must take guts and the proverbial cojones to take a stand against cruelty and the personification of tyranny that a horde of topless women is.

Who on earth are those damn Europeans to try to steal your voice? Do they not realise that your lives were defined a million-and-a-half ago by the Arabs, who protected your rights and guarded your modesty by ensuring that you don’t have much of a say in most things? Who are those unabashed infidels to protest on your behalf? Do they not realise that you are not allowed to express, let alone clamour in favour of, anything that contradicts the ostensibly divine scriptures? Who are those shameless activists to try and liberate you? Do they not realise that you can’t be liberated without the permission of your mehrams?

I can’t thank you enough for choosing to be more offended by naked bodies than dead bodies. And since there are so many different kinds of you to thank, I’ll try to address you one by one.

Dear ‘guardians of modesty’ Muslimaat, thank you for letting patriarchal societies define ‘modesty’ for you. Thank you for accepting contrasting definitions of modesty for men and women, and for not being a source of strength for your sisters and daughters, vindicating the men’s claim of you being the weaker sex. Thank you for teaching your daughters about the sin that having sex is, throughout their lives, and then compelling them to do it immediately with a man they first met a couple of hours ago, after signing a few papers and getting the clergy’s approval. Also, thank you for blaming your fellow women when they are raped, since men have the divine license to refuse to keep their emotions in the right place. And thank you very very much for being more misogynistic than any male chauvinist can ever possibly be.

Dear ‘feminist’ Muslimaat, thank you for being a ray of hope for bacon-eating vegetarians, god-fearing atheists and peace-loving terrorists. Thank you for reiterating the fact that your mehrams choose to overlook the divine orders and allow you to think freely and take your own decisions. Thank you for citing your personal example to highlight how you wear the hijab by your own choice, ignoring the fact that an overwhelming majority of Muslim women are coerced into doing so. Thank you very much for making the whole debate about you, when it was always about the torment and suffering that most of the Muslim women are going through.

Dear ‘liberal’ Muslimaat, thank you for defying the orders of your deity by choosing to not cover your heads. Thank you for disregarding other restrictions that your religion commands, and then having the audacity to condemn someone who is critical of these very commands. Thank you for cherry picking the commandments and making your ideology sound compatible with the 21st century, only to castigate those that take the same ideological orders literally and implement them. Thanks a lot for elucidating that you don’t need liberation and for paying no heed to the fact that the most of the women in your country do. And thank you very much for clinging on to those very shackles that have enchained the prospect of women empowerment in your country.

Dear ‘revolutionary’ Muslimaat, thank you for ignoring the life threats that Amina Tyler and many others like her are facing, after choosing to protest against the harassment that they have to bear on a daily basis.
Thank you for overlooking other lesser issues like terrorists attacking a 15-year-old schoolgirl; female genital mutilation; women being raped with judicial approval just so they don’t die virgins; two-year-old girls being forced to wear veils because the disgusting men in your country have no self-control; and fathers legally getting away with raping their daughters by paying a few riyals.

Thank you very much for screaming bloody murder over half-naked women’s claim of representing you, but accepting rapists, pedophiles and sorry excuses for human beings as your state leaders and role models.

#MuslimahPride is not just a hashtag, it’s a symbol of integrity and pride. It’s about taking pride in inequality, in half testimonies, in blaming rape victims and in gender discrimination. It’s about taking pride in chauvinism, where men have divine permission to beat and rape their wives, marry multiple times and possess slave girls.

It’s about taking pride in patriarchal societies where husbands are categorically told in detail how they should punish their “disobedient” wives, while not a single text exclusively tells women what they should do with unfaithful husbands. It’s about taking pride in not being allowed to vote, let alone lead your nations, and about finally being allowed to ride a goddamn bicycle – under a mehram’s supervision – in the year 2013 AD.


The #MuslimahPride jihad will be written down in history as the moment where Muslimaat made it clear to the world that no one should protest on their behalf, half-naked or otherwise. Thank you, dear Muslimaat, for saving the rest of the world’s time by clarifying that you’re fine living in the 7th century AD, and no one should push you towards the enlightened times, regardless of whether they have clothes on or not. Thank you for being a source of inspiration and an illuminating example for everyone. We all know that you have what it takes to transform the plight of the women and change the dynamics of the world, as long as you are back home before sunset.
More power to you.


PS: I hope being addressed as ‘dear’ does not land you in trouble with your oversensitive male guardians.


Yours thankfully,
Kunwar Khuldune Shahid


The writer is a financial journalist and a cultural critic. Twitter: @khuldune

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:46 pm



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYykIgZj70M

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