Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness?

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Post by Guest on Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:33 am

It might look like a simple chess problem, but this puzzle could finally help scientists uncover what makes the human mind so unique, and why it may never be matched by a computer. 75 years after Bletchley Park sought codebreakers in the Second World War by placing a crossword in The Telegraph, scientists are again inviting readers to pit their wits against a new conundrum to find the quickest minds.

The puzzle coincides with the launch of the new Penrose Institute, founded by Sir Roger Penrose, emeritus Professor at the Mathematical Institute of Oxford, who shared the World Prize in physics with Professor Stephen Hawking in 1988 for his work on black hole singularities. The new institute, which will have arms at UCL and Oxford University, has been set up to study human consciousness through physics and tease out the fundamental differences between artificial and human intelligence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/03/14/can-solve-chess-problem-holds-key-human-consciousness/

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:07 pm

Easy!

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Post by eddie on Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:26 pm

Is that cos you have an IQ of 75,000 or something, Tommy? Rolling Eyes

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:55 pm

eddie wrote:Is that cos you have an IQ of 75,000 or something, Tommy? Rolling Eyes


Should I feel bad or feel/be ashamed in some way for finding this easy...?



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Post by eddie on Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:07 pm

Nope. I just felt like being catty.

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Post by magica on Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:14 pm

I can't play chess
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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:20 pm

eddie wrote:Nope. I just felt like being catty.


Why?



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Post by eddie on Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
eddie wrote:Nope. I just felt like being catty.


Why?



Because I'm a million different people from one day to the next? Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? 2190311264

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:55 pm

eddie wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Why?



Because I'm a million different people from one day to the next? Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? 2190311264


I was wondering why some people react with hostility towards others who might display a bit of intelligence...?


But... anyway... after your last post... I feel a song coming on...





https://youtu.be/1lyu1KKwC74



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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:35 pm

Thorin wrote:It might look like a simple chess problem, but this puzzle could finally help scientists uncover what makes the human mind so unique, and why it may never be matched by a computer. 75 years after Bletchley Park sought codebreakers in the Second World War by placing a crossword in The Telegraph, scientists are again inviting readers to pit their wits against a new conundrum to find the quickest minds.

The puzzle coincides with the launch of the new Penrose Institute, founded by Sir Roger Penrose, emeritus Professor at the Mathematical Institute of Oxford, who shared the World Prize in physics with Professor Stephen Hawking in 1988 for his work on black hole singularities. The new institute, which will have arms at UCL and Oxford University, has been set up to study human consciousness through physics and tease out the fundamental differences between artificial and human intelligence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/03/14/can-solve-chess-problem-holds-key-human-consciousness/


Anyone else solved it yet?

I will post the answer a bit later...


Laughing

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:37 pm

Anyone want the answer yet?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:56 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Anyone want the answer yet?

They actually say in the article that it shouldn't be difficult (at all) for an average chess player to solve. The trick is that while the solution can come to a human mind pretty easily, it's impossible for a computer because those three bishops create more potential calculations than could be held in the biggest supercomputer.

I'm guessing that the difference between a supercomputer's processing and that of the human brain is that the brain figures out a way to disregard all that extraneous information, which makes sense from an evolutionary context.

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Post by eddie on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:06 pm

Whoosh. Straight over my head....but Tommy is bursting to tell us all Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? 1942856362

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:11 pm


I thought I also read something about 3 Bishops... but can't see that in the op article...


And I don't think that is the reason for computer problem with it...



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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:15 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
I thought I also read something about 3 Bishops... but can't see that in the op article...


And I don't think that is the reason for computer problem with it...



Here, let me try to draw your attention to the information in the op article:

Scientists have constructed it in a way to confound a chess computer, which would normally consider that it is a win for black.

However an average chess-playing human should be able to see that a draw is possible.

A chess computer struggles because it looks like an impossible position, even though it is perfectly legal.

The three bishops forces the computer to perform a massive search of possible positions that will rapidly expand to something that exceeds all the computational power on planet earth.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:21 pm



Yes... that wasn't showing in the article page I was looking at a little while ago...



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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:23 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Yes... that wasn't showing in the article page I was looking at a little while ago...



Yawn ...

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:34 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Yes... that wasn't showing in the article page I was looking at a little while ago...



Yawn ...


It wasn't... my Internet is slow today and I think that bit hadn't loaded properly...

Even now it only shows part of that section... it shows everything up to this bit...


"...The three bishops forces the computer to perform a massive search of possible positions that will rapidly expand to..."


Where it stops... after 'expand to'..



I did say I'd previously read that bit... just wasn't showing on the article when I looked at it a little while ago...

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Post by eddie on Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:39 pm

It must've been photoshopped, I reckon.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:28 pm

No... just a minor thing...




https://youtu.be/2dSekNF6pzA

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Post by Jules on Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:31 pm

I know nowt about chess so end the suspense! bounce

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Post by Jules on Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:39 pm

The human mind trounces any computer any day. A computer is only ever as good as what has been programmed into it.

Even the so called smart computers which can seemingly  pre-empt this and pre-empt that, their actions are based purely on the programming. There is no true spontaneity whatsoever. It cannot use its own initiative, it hasn't got any.
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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:49 pm


It's funny how often I am accused of being 'stupid/idiot' etc here on this forum...

But it seems I am the only 'stupid/idiot' person here who not only knows how to play chess, but also able to solve this problem with simplicity...!?


Most amusing!!!


lol!

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Post by Jules on Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:05 pm

Btw any sentence that contains the words ''three bishops'' needs a decent joke in it. I was looking for the punchline ...... to no avail. Mad

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:40 pm

I don't know about that... but I do remember a joke about nuns playing darts...


One throws a double 20, then another double 20... then the third throw, the dart rebounds out of the board, hitting and killing one of the nuns...

Only for the referee to loudly declare a score of...

"One nun dead and eighty!"


lol!

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Post by Jules on Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:45 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I don't know about that... but I do remember a joke about nuns playing darts...


One throws a double 20, then another double 20... then the third throw, the dart rebounds out of the board, hitting and killing one of the nuns...

Only for the referee to loudly declare a score of...

"One nun dead and eighty!"


lol!

G-R-O-A-N !!!!!
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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:19 pm



lol!


Was all I had...!


Anyway... back to the chess...

Has anyone got any answers yet...?


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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:29 pm

Tell you what Tommy, I pm my solution to Eddie and you can do the same.

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:31 pm

I would love to see the solution to judge if correct or not.

So what is holding people back?

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:33 pm

Just pm'd it to Eddie, let's see if Tommy does the same.

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:34 pm

sassy wrote:Just pm'd it to Eddie, let's see if Tommy does the same.


How can Eddie judge if either of you are correct?

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:38 pm

Very simple, once Tommy has pm'd Eddie we will both put our answer on here, it will be obvious if someone knows what they are talking about and can explain it.

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:40 pm

sassy wrote:Very simple, once Tommy has pm'd Eddie we will both put our answer on here, it will be obvious if someone knows what they are talking about and can explain it.


If you claim it is right and have sent this to Eddie, I can then check it here, as i am very good at chess.
So what is stopping you, if Tommy has failed to do so?

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:41 pm

Eds, perhaps you could put on this thread when you have received Tommy's pm. Ta

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:42 pm

Thorin wrote:
sassy wrote:Very simple, once Tommy has pm'd Eddie we will both put our answer on here, it will be obvious if someone knows what they are talking about and can explain it.


If you claim it is right and have sent this to Eddie, I can then check it here, as i am very good at chess.
So what is stopping you, if Tommy has failed to do so?


Simple, I'm not giving Tommy or you the chance to claim you knew it until Tommy has given his answer, and/or you as you claim to know chess. Eddie will know that I have given the answer and I cannot be accused of cheating from either of you.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:43 pm

Thorin wrote:I would love to see the solution to judge if correct or not.

So what is holding people back?


I didn't want to spoil it for others who might still be enjoying thinking about solutions...


I'm happy to post answer here if everyone else has given up...


Or can pm it to you/eddie or someone else...


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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thorin wrote:I would love to see the solution to judge if correct or not.

So what is holding people back?


I didn't want to spoil it for others who might still be enjoying thinking about solutions...


I'm happy to post answer here if everyone else has given up...


Or can pm it to you/eddie or someone else...



Its up to you Tommy

I would be able to verify, if you are correct.

You could PM me if you like.

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:45 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


I didn't want to spoil it for others who might still be enjoying thinking about solutions...


I'm happy to post answer here if everyone else has given up...


Or can pm it to you/eddie or someone else...



Its up to you Tommy

I would be able to verify, if you are correct.

You could PM me if you like.


Who appointed you adjudicator, you can only verify it if you know the answer, so you pm Eddie as well.

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:50 pm

sassy wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Its up to you Tommy

I would be able to verify, if you are correct.

You could PM me if you like.


Who appointed you adjudicator, you can only verify it if you know the answer, so you pm Eddie as well.


I posted the thread and again I have given Tommy the option, which is his choice.

I am not interested in measuring dick sizes as you seem to be.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:52 pm


The answer is simple...

As long as white only moves the white king and only moves around the board staying on white squares, then the black side only has the option of moving the black bishops about... not able to take any other white piece or to get a check onto white king, forcing a position of stalemate after 50 moves...


That is the solution to question asked...


But... the further question of how to get a win for white is also up for posting!!!


Of course I know this too...


And will post it when requested...

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:53 pm

Neither am I, but have you ever heard of someone being allowed to judge something they didn't know the answer to? I'll wait for Tommy to pm Eddie. Even a non chess player will understand the answer.

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Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:54 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
The answer is simple...

As long as white only moves the white king and only moves around the board staying on white squares, then the black side only has the option of moving the black bishops about... not able to take any other white piece or to get a check onto white king, forcing a position of stalemate after 50 moves...


That is the solution to question asked...


But... the further question of how to get a win for white is also up for posting!!!


Of course I know this too...


And will post it when requested...


Well done mate, I was hoping to see the win move, where black would make a mistake.

That I have not figured out yet.

I admit, but am still looking

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Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? Empty Re: Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness?

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:55 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
The answer is simple...

As long as white only moves the white king and only moves around the board staying on white squares, then the black side only has the option of moving the black bishops about... not able to take any other white piece or to get a check onto white king, forcing a position of stalemate after 50 moves...


That is the solution to question asked...


But... the further question of how to get a win for white is also up for posting!!!


Of course I know this too...


And will post it when requested...


Well done, that's what I posted to Eddie. Let's see whether Thorin can come up with the next bit lol Might be back later.

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Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? Empty Re: Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness?

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:56 pm

sassy wrote:Neither am I, but have you ever heard of someone being allowed to judge something they didn't know the answer to?   I'll wait for Tommy to pm Eddie.   Even a non chess player will understand the answer.


Well... I have posted my answer to part (a) out in the open...


Eddie will have to post yours...


Unless you start trying to complain about posting of PMS or something...?

lol!

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Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? Empty Re: Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness?

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:57 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
sassy wrote:Neither am I, but have you ever heard of someone being allowed to judge something they didn't know the answer to?   I'll wait for Tommy to pm Eddie.   Even a non chess player will understand the answer.


Well... I have posted my answer to part (a) out in the open...


Eddie will have to post yours...


Unless you start trying to complain about posting of PMS or something...?

lol!


lol!

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Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? Empty Re: Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness?

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
sassy wrote:Neither am I, but have you ever heard of someone being allowed to judge something they didn't know the answer to?   I'll wait for Tommy to pm Eddie.   Even a non chess player will understand the answer.


Well... I have posted my answer to part (a) out in the open...


Eddie will have to post yours...


Unless you start trying to complain about posting of PMS or something...?

lol!

Put your iccle dick back in your pants and use it to stir your tea.

This was my pm to Eddie, she'll verify it, posted before you posted your answer:

Keep moving the white king on white square, black bishops can only move on black squares.


Under the 50 move rule if nothing it taken after 50 moves the game comes to an end and a draw is called.

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Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? Empty Re: Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness?

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:04 pm

sassy wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
The answer is simple...

As long as white only moves the white king and only moves around the board staying on white squares, then the black side only has the option of moving the black bishops about... not able to take any other white piece or to get a check onto white king, forcing a position of stalemate after 50 moves...


That is the solution to question asked...


But... the further question of how to get a win for white is also up for posting!!!


Of course I know this too...


And will post it when requested...


Well done, that's what I posted to Eddie.   Let's see whether Thorin can come up with the next bit lol    Might be back later.


It'll be much much later to see him provide the solution...!

lol!

Could be a while...!

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Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? Empty Re: Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness?

Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:04 pm

But again, that's not really the point. The point is, what is it that enables your brain to come up with a solution like that, while the world's most powerful computers get caught up and frozen on the problem of those three bishops.

And just because three bishops really do deserve a punchline:

Three bishops were asked about their favorite and least-favorite parts of their job.

The first bishop said, "It's wonderful to know that I might be called upon to be Pope some day. But as a young man, I dreamed of marriage, and that could never happen now."

The second bishop said, "I take great reward in ordaining the next generation of priests into our church. However, the child abuse scandal has been very trying."

The third bishop said, "I love sitting in my special chair in the cathedral. But having to zig-zag through the congregation to sit there is a pain in the ass."

(Okay, it's lame)

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Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? Empty Re: Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness?

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:07 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
The answer is simple...

As long as white only moves the white king and only moves around the board staying on white squares, then the black side only has the option of moving the black bishops about... not able to take any other white piece or to get a check onto white king, forcing a position of stalemate after 50 moves...


That is the solution to question asked...


But... the further question of how to get a win for white is also up for posting!!!


Of course I know this too...


And will post it when requested...


I can get stalemate in 3 moves.

Lot easier than 50 moves

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Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness? Empty Re: Can you solve the chess problem which holds key to human consciousness?

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:08 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
The answer is simple...

As long as white only moves the white king and only moves around the board staying on white squares, then the black side only has the option of moving the black bishops about... not able to take any other white piece or to get a check onto white king, forcing a position of stalemate after 50 moves...


That is the solution to question asked...


But... the further question of how to get a win for white is also up for posting!!!


Of course I know this too...


And will post it when requested...


I can get stalemate in 3 moves.

Lot easier than 50 moves


Go on then...?


Tell...?

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'The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.'  — George Orwell
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