Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

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Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:42 pm

WASHINGTON — Case 7682299: Aug. 1, 2010. A mother gives her toddler three homeopathic pills to relieve her teething pain. Within minutes, the baby stops breathing.

“My daughter had a seizure, lost consciousness, and stopped breathing about 30 minutes after I gave her three Hyland’s Teething Tablets,” the mother later told the Food and Drug Administration. “She had to receive mouth-to-mouth CPR to resume breathing and was brought to the hospital.”


The company, Hyland’s, promotes “safe, effective, and natural health solutions” that appeal to parents seeking alternative treatments. But the agency would soon hear much more about Hyland’s teething products. Staff at the FDA would come to consider Case 7682299 one of the luckier outcomes.


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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by veya_victaous on Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:58 am

the problem is every single manufacturer of homeopathic remedies is an unethical scam artist, so it goes to reason they they are going to do what ever they can to minimizes expenses in regards to manufacturing safety.
If they are going to sell you something that will in no way do what it claims they probably have no issue selling you something that could harm you either.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:35 am

Surprised

AS SOON as the words "homeopathic" and "naturopathic" are used in the same sentence as "baby" or "childrens" medicines/treatments,  everybody along the line should face at least the possibility of jail time --  from the producers and manufacturers, through naturopaths/pharmacists/online marketers, and on to the parents themselves...

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:21 am

Hmmm, some people say that homeopathic remedies are just placebo and don't do anything, and here we have people saying that they do actually do something - not the desired effect obviously. So which is it?

The same is said of herbal remedies, and in some case the same is said of prescription drugs.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:27 am

Raggamuffin wrote:Hmmm, some people say that homeopathic remedies are just placebo and don't do anything, and here we have people saying that they do actually do something - not the desired effect obviously. So which is it?

The same is said of herbal remedies, and in some case the same is said of prescription drugs.


Did you read the article?

As this is specific to teething remedies and how on earth you comparing this to prescription drugs which help people get better is beyond me
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:33 am

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Hmmm, some people say that homeopathic remedies are just placebo and don't do anything, and here we have people saying that they do actually do something - not the desired effect obviously. So which is it?

The same is said of herbal remedies, and in some case the same is said of prescription drugs.


Did you read the article?

As this is specific to teething remedies and how on earth you comparing this to prescription drugs which help people get better is beyond me

Perhaps you should have made the thread title more specific then if it's only about one product.

Some doctors do indeed say that some prescription drugs only have a placebo effect, and others say that some of them are dangerous. People have been known to have acute adverse reactions to prescription drugs.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:40 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Did you read the article?

As this is specific to teething remedies and how on earth you comparing this to prescription drugs which help people get better is beyond me

Perhaps you should have made the thread title more specific then if it's only about one product.

Some doctors do indeed say that some prescription drugs only have a placebo effect, and others say that some of them are dangerous. People have been known to have acute adverse reactions to prescription drugs.


So you want me to change a title I never created because you were too lazy to read the article?

No thanks

Some doctors, would they be quack doctors?

Again all prescription drugs come with possible side effects, but again help millions get better, which is far removed from quackery homeopathy. How you make a comparison is blatantly absurd
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:46 am

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Perhaps you should have made the thread title more specific then if it's only about one product.

Some doctors do indeed say that some prescription drugs only have a placebo effect, and others say that some of them are dangerous. People have been known to have acute adverse reactions to prescription drugs.


So you want me to change a title I never created because you were too lazy to read the article?

No thanks

Some doctors, would they be quack doctors?

Again all prescription drugs come with possible side effects, but again help millions get better, which is far removed from quackery homeopathy. How you make a comparison is blatantly absurd

Both Veya and Wolfman made comments which were generalising about homeopathic remedies, and yet you went straight for me. Why is that? Are you afraid to pull them up?

I can make a comparison if I choose to. You clearly know nothing about prescription drugs and you're too lazy to find out anything about them. I have nothing against prescription drugs, but they do have side effects which affect people differently, and there have been claims that they can seriously damage some people - some examples being antidepressants, statins, and/or some drugs which are used in autoimmune diseases.

Now if you want to discuss this, that's great, but if you're going to sit here and get arsy with me and contradict everything I say because you feel like trolling me, forget it.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:54 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:


So you want me to change a title I never created because you were too lazy to read the article?

No thanks

Some doctors, would they be quack doctors?

Again all prescription drugs come with possible side effects, but again help millions get better, which is far removed from quackery homeopathy. How you make a comparison is blatantly absurd

Both Veya and Wolfman made comments which were generalising about homeopathic remedies, and yet you went straight for me. Why is that? Are you afraid to pull them up?

I can make a comparison if I choose to. You clearly know nothing about prescription drugs and you're too lazy to find out anything about them. I have nothing against prescription drugs, but they do have side effects which affect people differently, and there have been claims that they can seriously damage some people - some examples being antidepressants, statins, and/or some drugs which are used in autoimmune diseases.

Now if you want to discuss this, that's great, but if you're going to sit here and get arsy with me and contradict everything I say because you feel like trolling me, forget it.


1) Because your post was on topic and made poor claims

2) And I can rubbish that comparison, as I just easily did. You then claim I know nothing based off no reasoning but a poor accusation you cannot back up. You then attempt to back this up with drugs for mental health which I have always argued should only ever be a short term help top start, when the cases are extreme with depression. I dont think long term they are helpful and many become dependent on them. That however is a piss poor guilt by association to countless drugs which are helpful. Again that is just one area of drugs, where clearly you do not know much Physiology. As there are thousands of conditions the human body can suffer from.

3) I will ridicule stupid posts, you made a stupid comparison and based off a fallacy, guilt by association
People answering dumb posts is not trolling, so nobody is buying your piss poor victim card
Grow up. The forum is open to respond to posts and your post was stupid
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:00 am

I see you're just going to troll me then Didge - I saw that from the first line of your post, and I didn't bother to read the rest. You're working up to another flounce aren't you? That always starts with you trolling one particular member.

You will be ignored if you keep trolling and abusing me and do not attempt any kind of intelligent debate.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:01 am

Raggamuffin wrote:I see you're just going to troll me then Didge - I saw that from the first line of your post, and I didn't bother to read the rest. You're working up to another flounce aren't you? That always starts with you trolling one particular member.

You will be ignored if you keep trolling and abusing me and do not attempt any kind of intelligent debate.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:57 pm

Rags is right - there are some prescription drugs and even OTC drugs - that specifically tell you not to use them long term due to the harm they can do.

There are loads of natural remedies for children that are sold OTC too so not quite sure why there's a downer on them? I'd never buy homeopathic remedies online, for example, but places like Holland and Barrett are great for some natural remedies.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:01 pm

eddie wrote:Rags is right - there are some prescription drugs and even OTC drugs - that specifically tell you not to use them long term due to the harm they can do.

There are loads of natural remedies for children that are sold OTC too so not quite sure why there's a downer on them? I'd never buy homeopathic remedies online, for example, but places like Holland and Barrett are great for some natural remedies.


How is she right to compare quackery homeopathy with prescription drugs, when they medically help people and homeopathy do not medically help people?
So the drugs say not to use long term, which means they have warnings, which you do not see on the homeopathy quackery
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:06 pm

Didge why are you calling all homeopathic remedies "quackery"? Some creams and homeopathic remedies have helped people. I'm not saying prescription drugs don't work - but I don't think you can sit there and say natural remedies can't help certain people in certain situations.

Even doctors will say "To be honest, olive oil is the best thing for loosening ear wax compared to anything I can prescribe"
I have but been TOLD this by GP's for years - I have recurring ear problems - though conversely, I prefer the Otex (medical) stuff as olive oil doesn't work for me.


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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:10 pm

eddie wrote:Didge why are you calling all homeopathic remedies "quackery"?  Some creams and homeopathic remedies have helped people.  I'm not saying prescription drugs don't work - but I don't think you can sit there and say natural remedies can't help certain people in certain situations.

Even doctors will say "To be honest, olive oil is the best thing for loosening ear wax compared to anything I can prescribe"  
I have but been TOLD this by GP's for years - I have recurring ear problems - though conversely, I prefer the Otex (medical) stuff as olive oil doesn't work for me.



Because they do not have to go under any tests before they go onto the market, where prescription drugs do.
They are complete quackery and play on the naive and vulnerable

Yes I can say they are bullshit Eddie

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:30 pm

Okay didge. Well there are millions of people who have used them and would say different.
I can go find other links to support what I say but I find actual life experience and testimonials from actual people who've been helped, so much more helpful.

I have to say though, Ashton and Parsons is an old remedy that is entirely natural and I've not met one mother who hasn't said it didn't work better than anything else they've tried.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:33 pm

eddie wrote:Okay didge. Well there are millions of people who have used them and would say different.
I can go find other links to support what I say but I find actual life experience and testimonials from actual people who've been helped, so much more helpful.

I have to say though, Ashton and Parsons is an old remedy that is entirely natural and I've not met one mother who hasn't said it didn't work better than anything else they've tried.


Sorry but that is a fallacy argument Eddie.
At best these have a placebo effect as proven by countless studies.
People can claim many things, but it takes studies and testing to show whether something has any medical value and clearly they do not.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:06 pm

Yes didge just like the clinical trials where half are given a placebo and half a real tablet. Those on the placebo think the tablet is working....?

Perhaps healing is about self-belief after all. Wink

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:59 pm

eddie wrote:Yes didge just like the clinical trials where half are given a placebo and half a real tablet. Those on the placebo think the tablet is working....?

Perhaps healing is about self-belief after all. Wink

Do they Eddie.


That makes absolutely zero sense.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by HoratioTarr on Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:53 pm

eddie wrote:Rags is right - there are some prescription drugs and even OTC drugs - that specifically tell you not to use them long term due to the harm they can do.

There are loads of natural remedies for children that are sold OTC too so not quite sure why there's a downer on them? I'd never buy homeopathic remedies online, for example, but places like Holland and Barrett are great for some natural remedies.

There are plenty of prescription drugs that have ruined people's lives. Thalidomide for one.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by nicko on Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:13 pm

I thought Homeopathic medications are so diluted as to have none or a very miniscule amount of the original infusion?
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:18 pm

try understanding somethings about homeopathy and the dilutions used

MOST homeopathic drugs do indeed contain eithe such small amounts of active priciples as to be only identifiable by advanced detection systems down to actually containg NO active principle at all (statistically speaking)

there are two systems (at least) one of which dilutes by lots of 1 in 10 (american)
and one which dilutes by lots of 1 in 100.(european)

Now we need a number avagadros number

the number of atoms or molecules in one mole of a substance, equal to 6.023 × 10^23.
one mole is equal to the molecular weight of the substance in grams

(so for example one mole of carbon = 12 grams)

now when the subsatnce is dilueted to at least i part in 6.023 x 10^23 the statistical chance of finding a single molecule in the resultant dilution is 1 I.e there should be exactly ONE molecule left....
in reality since we cant weigh to that degree of accuracy there will be a few ..or none at all...

now 10^23

is 10 x10 ....23 times
or

so if we dilute 1 in 100 then dilute that 1 in 100 we gt 1 in 10,000 (10^4) = 2N
again is 1 in 1,000,000 (10^6) = 3N
again is 1 in 100,000,000(10^Cool =4N
again is 1 in 10,000,000,000 (10^10) =5N
again is 1 in 1,000,000,000,000(10^12) =6N
again is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000 (10^14) = 7N
again is 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000 (10^16) = 8N
again is 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 (10^18) =9N
again is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 (10^20) = 10N
again is 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, (10^22) 11N
again is 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (10^24) 12N

at this point we have EXCEEDED avogadros number and the mix contains NO molecules of the original substance (statistically speaking)

(you would in fact have to take AT LEAST 1000 samples to detect just ONE molecule)

Now note that last line this is the 12N dilution common in european homeopathy

now lets look at the american system

1 in 10 dilututed again 1 in 10 = 1 in 100 (10^2) =2X
again is 1 in 1000...(10^3) 3X
again is 1 in 10,000 (10^4) 4X
again is 1 in 100,000 (10^5) 5X
again is 1 in 1,000,000 (10^6) 6X
again is 1 in 10,000,000 (10^7) 7X
again is 1 in 100,000,000 (10^Cool 8X
again is 1 in 1,000,000,000 (10^9) 9X
again is 1 in 10,000,000,000 (10^10) 10X
again is 1 in 100,000,000,000 (10^11) 11X
again is 1 in 1,000,000,000,000(10^12) 12x

which is what the diilution of the american drug was.

compare this with the blue line above

YES the american 12X preparation is only diluted as far as the european 6N dilution and hence will contain a significant amount of the active ingredient, sufficient, if a baby is sensitive to the contained subsatnce to trigger a reaction...





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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Jules on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:28 pm

Thorin wrote:WASHINGTON — Case 7682299: Aug. 1, 2010. A mother gives her toddler three homeopathic pills to relieve her teething pain. Within minutes, the baby stops breathing.

“My daughter had a seizure, lost consciousness, and stopped breathing about 30 minutes after I gave her three Hyland’s Teething Tablets,” the mother later told the Food and Drug Administration. “She had to receive mouth-to-mouth CPR to resume breathing and was brought to the hospital.”


The company, Hyland’s, promotes “safe, effective, and natural health solutions” that appeal to parents seeking alternative treatments. But the agency would soon hear much more about Hyland’s teething products. Staff at the FDA would come to consider Case 7682299 one of the luckier outcomes.


Continue reading by clicking the name of the source below.

SOURCE SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN


This thread has the potential to be a GREAT one provided people resist the temptation to take it into too many different directions. Hopefully it's not too late to salvage it cos there are some really good talking points.

For a start it should be confined mainly to babies and small kids as per title - their health is a very different kettle of fish from adults' hence why they need their own separate specialist doctors.

Also Homeopathic medicines should really be discussed separately from conventional ones.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:38 pm

To follow on, the drug contains atropa belladonna or deadly nightshade which contains 3 main drugs

These toxins include atropine, scopolamine and hyoscyamine, which cause a bizarre delirium and hallucinations,[1] and are also used as pharmaceutical anticholinergics.(act like nerve gas)

all of which have a molecular weight of around 300 therfore 1 mole = 300 g

now dilute that by 10^12 and you have about 0.000,000,000,003 grams of drug per dose.....

whilst this is 1 million times less than the LD50 of 33mg/kg for an ADULT human

THIS from a MDSS is interesting

11/26/2013
Revision:
Page: 5
Atropine
SAFETY DATA SHEET
11.1
Section 11. Toxicological Information
The toxicological effects of this product have not been thoroughly studied.
Atropine - Toxicity Data: Oral TDLO (human): 33 μg/kg;

young children are known to be many times more sensitive to alkaloids (which these are) than adults, combined with an inate sensitivity possible in any individual its not surprising there have been "issues"


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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:39 pm

Jules wrote:
Thorin wrote:WASHINGTON — Case 7682299: Aug. 1, 2010. A mother gives her toddler three homeopathic pills to relieve her teething pain. Within minutes, the baby stops breathing.

“My daughter had a seizure, lost consciousness, and stopped breathing about 30 minutes after I gave her three Hyland’s Teething Tablets,” the mother later told the Food and Drug Administration. “She had to receive mouth-to-mouth CPR to resume breathing and was brought to the hospital.”


The company, Hyland’s, promotes “safe, effective, and natural health solutions” that appeal to parents seeking alternative treatments. But the agency would soon hear much more about Hyland’s teething products. Staff at the FDA would come to consider Case 7682299 one of the luckier outcomes.


Continue reading by clicking the name of the source below.

SOURCE SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN


This thread has the potential to be a GREAT one provided people resist the temptation to take it into too many different directions. Hopefully it's not too late to salvage it cos there are some really good talking points.

For a start it should be confined mainly to babies and small kids as per title - their health is a very different kettle of fish from adults'  hence why they need their own separate specialist doctors.

Also Homeopathic medicines should really be discussed separately from conventional ones.

WHY in the case of THIS one it obvioulsy contained significant amounts of an active ingredient (which is also known and used in conventional medicine) so its NOT any different to any other drug on the market.

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If at any time in 2016 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up buttercup, cause 2017 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


Difficile est meminisse officium paludes siccare , cum de nocte surrexeritis et asinus tuus alligators ....(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:42 pm

and from wiki

These data notwithstanding, consumption of belladonna should be mindful and generally avoided due to the devastating toxic states that can for some individuals prove lethal even with the minimal dosage.

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Difficile est meminisse officium paludes siccare , cum de nocte surrexeritis et asinus tuus alligators ....(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Jules on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:53 pm

Thorin wrote:
eddie wrote:Yes didge just like the clinical trials where half are given a placebo and half a real tablet. Those on the placebo think the tablet is working....?

Perhaps healing is about self-belief after all. Wink

Do they Eddie.
That makes absolutely zero sense.

Harsh!  Shocked  Seems you are both generalising anyway.  Given that there are hundreds of diseases & maladies out there, it's impossible to make any blanket statement that applies to all of them.


Eddie said ''healing'' is about self-belief.  Well it rather depends what you're trying to heal!!!   lol! Psychosomatic illnesses - eg those based on severe anxiety  like some cases of palpitations,  high blood pressure,  stomach ulcer and even some cases of infertility ...  can indeed be helped by self-therapy. The mind are body are intimately connected. Stress has a powerfully detrimental effect on our general metabolism and our immune system.  Stands to reason that if you can bring your own stress levels down, you can heal yourself in some instances.

At the other extreme, with for eg advanced widespread cancer  no amount of 'self-belief' will help and  'self healing' is obviously not applicable.


Sorry but I wanted to comment on this particular post, tho it's somewhat offtopic.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:01 am

Jules wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Do they Eddie.
That makes absolutely zero sense.

Harsh!  Shocked  Seems you are both generalising anyway.  Given that there are hundreds of diseases & maladies out there, it's impossible to make any blanket statement that applies to all of them.




Not generalizing either, there has been countless studies on the claimed effects.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Jules on Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:12 am

Thorin wrote:WASHINGTON — Case 7682299: Aug. 1, 2010. A mother gives her toddler three homeopathic pills to relieve her teething pain. Within minutes, the baby stops breathing.

“My daughter had a seizure, lost consciousness, and stopped breathing about 30 minutes after I gave her three Hyland’s Teething Tablets,” the mother later told the Food and Drug Administration. “She had to receive mouth-to-mouth CPR to resume breathing and was brought to the hospital.”


The company, Hyland’s, promotes “safe, effective, and natural health solutions” that appeal to parents seeking alternative treatments. But the agency would soon hear much more about Hyland’s teething products. Staff at the FDA would come to consider Case 7682299 one of the luckier outcomes.


Continue reading by clicking the name of the source below.

SOURCE SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN

30 minutes? Ffs a LOT can happen to a sick baby in 30 minutes, you cannot blame the medicine for this, with any degree of confidence. Babies are notoriously known to deteriorate with lightning speed! A child can go from scratch to death within hours. That's how cot deaths happen after all. You feed a baby, they smile at you and fall asleep and a few hours later, they're gone.

It's natural for grieving parents to lash out at anything tangible, when these tragedies happen, but I'm not conviced that theses medicines are the cause of demise in every case.

Have there been any/many convictions at all? Why do you think that is?
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:15 am

Jules wrote:
Thorin wrote:WASHINGTON — Case 7682299: Aug. 1, 2010. A mother gives her toddler three homeopathic pills to relieve her teething pain. Within minutes, the baby stops breathing.

“My daughter had a seizure, lost consciousness, and stopped breathing about 30 minutes after I gave her three Hyland’s Teething Tablets,” the mother later told the Food and Drug Administration. “She had to receive mouth-to-mouth CPR to resume breathing and was brought to the hospital.”


The company, Hyland’s, promotes “safe, effective, and natural health solutions” that appeal to parents seeking alternative treatments. But the agency would soon hear much more about Hyland’s teething products. Staff at the FDA would come to consider Case 7682299 one of the luckier outcomes.


Continue reading by clicking the name of the source below.

SOURCE SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN

30 minutes? Ffs a LOT can happen to a sick baby in 30 minutes, you cannot blame the medicine for this, with any degree of confidence. Babies are notoriously known to deteriorate with lightning speed! A child can go from scratch to death within hours. That's how cot deaths happen after all. You feed a baby, they smile at you and fall asleep  and a few hours later, they're gone.

It's natural for grieving parents to lash out at anything tangible,  when these tragedies happen, but I'm not conviced that theses medicines are the cause of demise in every case.

Have there been any/many convictions at all? Why do you think that is?  


Hundreds have become ill and dies to something that has not been tested rigorously as medicines are to go onto the market and you are disclaiming the evidence by brushing this under the carpet now.
Did you read the whole link?
Clearly such a product needs further testing before being allowed onto the market and why it has been stopped in being made
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Jules on Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:26 am

Despite everything I've said I do feel it's best to avoid homeopathy altogether in very small children. Their constution works quite differently from adults's both in health and in sickness. Hence why they need their own specialist doctors who need to study at post grad level for years, to be qualified to treat them.
Great thread Thorin, you make some fantastic threads. GTG now. bye luv.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:27 am

Jules wrote:Despite everything I've said I do feel it's best to avoid homeopathy altogether in very small children. Their constution works quite differently from adults's both in health and in sickness. Hence why they need their own specialist doctors who need to study at post grad level for years,  to be qualified to treat them.
Great thread Thorin, you make some fantastic threads. GTG now. bye luv.


Night Jules, all the best
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:31 am

Raggamuffin wrote:Hmmm, some people say that homeopathic remedies are just placebo and don't do anything, and here we have people saying that they do actually do something - not the desired effect obviously. So which is it?

The same is said of herbal remedies, and in some case the same is said of prescription drugs.

the homeopathic remedies do nothing BUT that doesn't mean they cannot have a unsanitary production process.
it is not a case of the stated ingredient (which as others pointed out is too greatly diluted to do anything) that causes harm but like any product that doesn't have strong regulations around it's manufacture it is fraught with risk.
since homeopathy is not medicine it is not held to the same standards.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:58 am

Idea

Just imagine all of the contaminants that could be contained in an under-regulated industry's snakeoil "remedy's" carrier solution  --

Heavy metals
Toxic wastes --  arsenic, cyanide, radioactives
Bacteria, amoebic and other pathogens
Petroleum products
Paints, plastics
Spores, proteins, other allergens


What a Face

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by eddie on Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:03 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote: Idea

Just imagine all of the contaminants that could be contained in an under-regulated industry's snakeoil "remedy's" carrier solution  --

Heavy metals
Toxic wastes --  arsenic, cyanide, radioactives
Bacteria, amoebic and other pathogens
Petroleum products
Paints, plastics
Spores, proteins, other allergens


What a Face

Well cigarettes contain many nasty materials - vaccines contain mercury - lots of medicines contain lots of "harmful" ingredients (look at chemo!)
But we still get peddled them by the powers that be.

I think it's very naive to think that everything we are prescribed is somehow "safe".

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by eddie on Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:06 pm

Jules wrote:Despite everything I've said I do feel it's best to avoid homeopathy altogether in very small children. Their constution works quite differently from adults's both in health and in sickness. Hence why they need their own specialist doctors who need to study at post grad level for years,  to be qualified to treat them.
Great thread Thorin, you make some fantastic threads. GTG now. bye luv.

Of course you shouldn't give a baby homeopathic remedies - you should consult a doctor or read the labels on all products you buy.
Having said that, Ashton's and Parsons teething powders are massively popular and work better than anything else in the market and they're 100% natural.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:22 pm

eddie wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote: Idea

Just imagine all of the contaminants that could be contained in an under-regulated industry's snakeoil "remedy's" carrier solution  --

Heavy metals
Toxic wastes --  arsenic, cyanide, radioactives
Bacteria, amoebic and other pathogens
Petroleum products
Paints, plastics
Spores, proteins, other allergens


What a Face

Well cigarettes contain many nasty materials - vaccines contain mercury - lots of medicines contain lots of "harmful" ingredients (look at chemo!)
But we still get peddled them by the powers that be.

I think it's very naive to think that everything we are prescribed is somehow "safe".


Since when did doctors prescribe cigarettes Eddie?
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by eddie on Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:54 pm

Sorry I meant we are peddled cigarettes legally - I'm sure I never said doctors prescribed them, though they do prescribe mercury...it comes free with vaccines.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:48 pm

eddie wrote:Rags is right - there are some prescription drugs and even OTC drugs - that specifically tell you not to use them long term due to the harm they can do.

There are loads of natural remedies for children that are sold OTC too so not quite sure why there's a downer on them? I'd never buy homeopathic remedies online, for example, but places like Holland and Barrett are great for some natural remedies.

Thank you eddie. Even after a lot of testing, some drugs have to be withdrawn from the market because of adverse effects. Rofecoxib, an NSAID, is one which was withdrawn because of concerns that it increased the risk of heart attack and strokes. There's a whole list of other prescription drugs which have been withdrawn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs


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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:55 pm

eddie wrote:Sorry I meant we are peddled cigarettes legally - I'm sure I never said doctors prescribed them, though they do prescribe mercury...it comes free with vaccines.


Yes but you are again, as badly as Rags did comparing medicines that help people get better, even where they have side effects. Homeopaths do get people better from illnesses.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by eddie on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:56 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:Rags is right - there are some prescription drugs and even OTC drugs - that specifically tell you not to use them long term due to the harm they can do.

There are loads of natural remedies for children that are sold OTC too so not quite sure why there's a downer on them? I'd never buy homeopathic remedies online, for example, but places like Holland and Barrett are great for some natural remedies.

Thank you eddie. Even after a lot of testing, some drugs have to be withdrawn from the market because of adverse effects. Rofecoxib, an NSAID, is one which was withdrawn because of concerns that it increased the risk of heart attack and strokes. There's a whole list of other prescription drugs which have been withdrawn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs


Yes rags, indeed. I know of some of them becasue my grandparents were always being taken off something or another due to it being withdrawn.
Why anyone thinks that doctors and the medical profession are some kind of all-knowing God, is beyond me.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:00 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Thank you eddie. Even after a lot of testing, some drugs have to be withdrawn from the market because of adverse effects. Rofecoxib, an NSAID, is one which was withdrawn because of concerns that it increased the risk of heart attack and strokes. There's a whole list of other prescription drugs which have been withdrawn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs


Yes rags, indeed. I know of some of them becasue my grandparents were always being taken off something or another due to it being withdrawn.  
Why anyone thinks that doctors and the medical profession are some kind of all-knowing God, is beyond me.  


And where does anyone claim doctors or medical professionals are god like?
Its the sort of ignorance spouted around by people who have no qualifications in the medical field.
I think they have earned the right to practice the field don't you Eddie?
Its this sort of demeaning of the medical profession who daily saves countless lives is nothing short of insulting.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:02 pm

Here is an example of the people you are insulting Eddie


Thanks to a program that works to build healthier peaceful international relationships, 16 Palestinian children are now able to hear after being given cochlear implants by Israeli doctors.

The Peres Center For Peace coordinated the 16 successful surgeries over the course of the last year at the Hadassah Ein Kerem Hospital. Six of the surgeries occurred last month in “marathon style” back-to-back operations.

Though the surgery may be a fairly common operation in more advanced countries, it is not yet as accessible in developing countries.

“This is an amazing project that gives these children the opportunity to step out of their world of silence and live their lives normally and fully,” the project’s leading surgeon Dr. Michal Kaufmann told YNet News.

“These children couldn’t speak prior to the surgery, they were bereft of any supporting environment, uncommunicative. The surgery opened up their world, the ability to communicate and spread their wings… We are happy to have been able to contribute to such a dramatic change in their lives.”


http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/israeli-doctors-help-deaf-palestinian-kids-hear-first-time/

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:03 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Thank you eddie. Even after a lot of testing, some drugs have to be withdrawn from the market because of adverse effects. Rofecoxib, an NSAID, is one which was withdrawn because of concerns that it increased the risk of heart attack and strokes. There's a whole list of other prescription drugs which have been withdrawn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs


Yes rags, indeed. I know of some of them becasue my grandparents were always being taken off something or another due to it being withdrawn.  
Why anyone thinks that doctors and the medical profession are some kind of all-knowing God, is beyond me.  

Yes. I'm not saying that the pharma industry and/or the medical profession are to blame. Sometimes, it's impossible to determine all the serious adverse effects until the drug has been on the market for a while. There are also drugs which are known to carry potentially serious side effects, but the benefits are thought to outweigh the risks - depending on the severity of the disease which is being treated.

I think the trouble with homeopathic and/or herbal remedies is that some people think they are totally harmless, so they take them at the drop of a hat. However, some of them can be quite powerful. For example, anti-depressants carry a warning that they should not be taken in combination with St John's Wort.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by eddie on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:08 pm

A lot of people are ignorant that's why. Of course herbs can be dangerous, it's why pregnant ladies are advised against eating too much cinnamon and drinking raspberry leaf tea in later pregnancy, as an example.

Natural remedies are not something id even consider buying online either.

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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by nicko on Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:29 pm

I take Warferin, you would be surprised how many other drugs I cannot take as it would be dangerous.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Jules on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:51 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Jules wrote:
This thread has the potential to be a GREAT one provided people resist the temptation to take it into too many different directions. Hopefully it's not too late to salvage it cos there are some really good talking points.

For a start it should be confined mainly to babies and small kids as per title - their health is a very different kettle of fish from adults'  hence why they need their own separate specialist doctors.

Also Homeopathic medicines should really be discussed separately from conventional ones.

WHY  in the case of THIS one it obvioulsy contained significant amounts of an active ingredient (which is also known and used in conventional medicine) so its NOT any different to any other drug on the market.

Sorry LF, didn't see your post there. The question is - was it meant to contain significant amounts of an active ingredient .... or did this happen by accident, due to faulty preparation? After all, isn't the infinite dilution process meant to remove almost all traces of the active ingredient?
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Jules on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:55 pm

eddie wrote:
Jules wrote:Despite everything I've said I do feel it's best to avoid homeopathy altogether in very small children. Their constution works quite differently from adults's both in health and in sickness. Hence why they need their own specialist doctors who need to study at post grad level for years,  to be qualified to treat them.
Great thread Thorin, you make some fantastic threads. GTG now. bye luv.

Of course you shouldn't give a baby homeopathic remedies - you should consult a doctor or read the labels on all products you buy.
Having said that, Ashton's and Parsons teething powders are massively popular and work better than anything else in the market and they're 100% natural.  

Well clearly some people do.
Hence why this thread exists.
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by Jules on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:07 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote: Idea

Just imagine all of the contaminants that could be contained in an under-regulated industry's snakeoil "remedy's" carrier solution  --

Heavy metals
Toxic wastes --  arsenic, cyanide, radioactives
Bacteria, amoebic and other pathogens
Petroleum products
Paints, plastics
Spores, proteins, other allergens


What a Face

Or possibly, preparation of these products in non sterile conditions,
And a system that is subject to inaccuracies, inconsistencies and contamination.
There is scope for soooo much to go wrong. What a Face

I see the word HOME in HOMEopathy and my hyperactive imagination conjures up visions of home-made potions concocted in cauldrons in back rooms. I know that is not what the 'home' bit means, but even so...'

It's like ecigs and vaping all over again. Who monitors the amount of nicotine in ecigs sold on line, especially from abroad?
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Re: Hundreds of Babies Harmed by Homeopathic Remedies, Families Say

Post by HoratioTarr on Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:50 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:

Yes rags, indeed. I know of some of them becasue my grandparents were always being taken off something or another due to it being withdrawn.  
Why anyone thinks that doctors and the medical profession are some kind of all-knowing God, is beyond me.  

Yes. I'm not saying that the pharma industry and/or the medical profession are to blame. Sometimes, it's impossible to determine all the serious adverse effects until the drug has been on the market for a while. There are also drugs which are known to carry potentially serious side effects, but the benefits are thought to outweigh the risks - depending on the severity of the disease which is being treated.

I think the trouble with homeopathic and/or herbal remedies is that some people think they are totally harmless, so they take them at the drop of a hat. However, some of them can be quite powerful. For example, anti-depressants carry a warning that they should not be taken in combination with St John's Wort.

And everyone knows nutmeg gives you hallucinations if you take enough.... bounce
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