Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

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Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by The Devil, You Know on Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:09 am

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Back in the 18th century, political reformer Henry Fox was advocating giving the vote to more people. But only, he insisted, to what he called ‘the better sort’. Not ‘the mob or the mere dregs of the people’. Heaven forbid!

Now, in the 21st century, such derogatory sentiments about ‘the people’ are dangerously back in fashion — ever since they dared vote for Brexit in Britain, and for Donald Trump in the United States.

Questions are being asked in high places about whether ordinary voters are fit to make decisions on major issues.

As a result, democracy — the cornerstone of our way of life — is being undermined, its very survival put at risk. Its modern enemies are mustering from all corners — but most worryingly from the Left, the very area where its stoutest defenders should be.

As a long-standing person of the Left, I fear that democratic freedoms are now in danger of being abandoned as elitists in our midst attempt to restrict them.

Every serious politician and thinker declares his or her belief in democracy. Yet, in practice, they seek to separate power from the people. The mantra has become ‘I’m a democrat, of course, but …’

Over Brexit, this profoundly insidious attitude was exemplified by John Major, former Tory prime minister, who denied the referendum result was binding and declared: ‘The tyranny of the majority has never applied in a democracy.’

Some of us might naively have imagined that majority rule was the very essence of democracy. But not, it seems, when millions vote against the wishes of a tiny political elite.

It was, of course, George Orwell in his 1945 novel Animal Farm, who described how ‘All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.’

Fast-forward to today and we find many Remainers similarly convinced that anyone who voted to leave the EU is too stupid to have the vote. The response was the same in America when voters failed to elect Hillary Clinton.

Trump’s victory, one U.S. professor declared, was ‘the dance of the dunces’, the result of ‘uneducated, low-information white people’ being given the vote. He added: ‘Democracy is supposed to enact the will of the people. But what if the people have no clue what they’re doing?’

The fury against the 17.4 million UK voters who dared to back Brexit — and the 62 million Americans who had the temerity to vote for Trump — brings frightening anti-democratic poisons bubbling to the surface of our societies.

The sheer bile that erupted from political and cultural elites in Britain after the Brexit vote revealed a deep-seated contempt for the people and for democracy. The Establishment reacted as if the ground had disappeared from beneath their feet. How could this have happened?

After all, the Remain campaign had marshalled every authority in the Western world to warn that a Leave vote would lead to economic ruination, a descent into barbarism, world war and, worse, falling house prices.

The people had been told to vote Remain by leaders of all Britain’s mainstream political parties, the governor of the Bank of England, the Chancellor of Germany, the then President of the U.S., and every celebrity from David Beckham to Johnny Rotten.

Yet a majority of voters actually disobeyed!

In the eyes of the Establishment, the only possible explanation was that those millions were simply too ignorant, uneducated, gullible, bigoted or emotional to understand what they were being told.

What is curious is that those from the liberal and Left wings — the ones who claim to be most in favour of change in the UK — were most upset.

But instead of trying to understand, the response of many was to dismiss the result as merely a ‘howl of rage’ by voters who must have taken leave of their senses — and to find ways to block it. The Guardian paper, alleged voice of liberal Britain, produced an official post-referendum T-shirt that declares: ‘Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.’

Its columnist Polly Toynbee, grande dame of British liberalism, demanded that 231 Labour MPs — 70 per cent of whose constituencies voted for Brexit — must ‘save us’ from the referendum result. In the name of ‘democracy’, of course.

Such responses let slip the mask and revealed the ugly fact that this country’s political elite believes that matters of government are far too complex and sophisticated to let the governed decide.

For the record, I voted Leave with passion, but my attack is not aimed at the 16.1 million who voted to Remain. They made a rational choice, just as the Leavers did. The difference is that most Remainers now accept the result, unlike elitists such as Tony Blair or Richard Branson — or their poster girl Gina Miller, the City financier who led the court challenge, declaring that the revolting voters’ verdict ‘made her physically ill’.

The reaction from those on the Left was the same when the American electorate handed Trump the keys to the White House.

He had been denounced as a disgrace to U.S. politics not only by the political establishment and the media but also by alpha intellectuals Beyoncé and Jay-Z, Lady Gaga and Madonna, Jon Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen. How could Americans resist being dazzled by such a star-studded appeal, you might think?

Yet more than 62 million Americans did just that. They voted Trump in — to the consternation of every ‘liberal’ voice in the land. On campuses, students held protests and college authorities offered counselling and time off to ‘grieve’, as if they were victims of a tragic disaster.

Personally, I have no truck with the illiberal, free-speech-stomping, narrow-minded Trump. But what I don’t get is their astonishment and hysteria at what happened.

After the election, everybody suddenly started asking: ‘How could they vote for him?’

But it should not have been difficult to get a sense beforehand of the growing anger against the political elite among the voters Clinton branded ‘deplorables’.

It was just that nobody had ever bothered to ask those ‘deplorables’ what they thought. The underlying problem in the UK, the U.S. and other Western societies is that politics and public life have increasingly become the preserve of a self-regarding elite of officials, opinion formers, intellectuals and so-called experts. They treat ‘ordinary people’, the masses, as outside of politics and beyond the pale, their concerns marginalised and ignored.

The Brexit vote marked a revolt against the ‘enforced conformity’ preached by this elite. That it came as such a shock to them was a sign of how little contact they had with the real world. And still many of them don’t get it.

In the Left-wing New Statesman magazine, Professor Richard Dawkins, the leading evolutionary biologist and renowned humanist was unable to suppress his true feelings that the large slice of humanity who voted Leave were ‘stupid, ignorant people’. He protested that ‘it is unfair to thrust on to unqualified simpletons the responsibility to take historic decisions of great complexity and sophistication’.

Presumably such decisions would be better left to highly intellectual minds such as his own. Great atheist that he is, he appears to think the rest of us should have blind faith in people like him.

Meanwhile, the normally unflappable ‘leading man of the Left’, philosophy professor A.C. Grayling, wrote to every MP (apparently in the name of his students), demanding that they vote to ignore the result — which he said was driven by mere ‘demagoguery and sentiment’ — and remain in the European Union.

His extraordinary contention was that the majority of people are what he called ‘System One’ thinkers, who make decisions on impulse — and that what we need is to pay more heed to ‘System Two’ thinkers, who seek information, analyse it, and weigh arguments in order to come to decisions. People similar to him, presumably.

Thankfully, not all clever people took this anti-democratic line.

Wolf Hall author Hilary Mantel observed how: ‘As soon as the result was in, millions signed a petition to rub it out and do it again. The bien-pensants suggested the result was not binding, but advisory — an opinion they would hardly have offered had the vote gone the other way.’

Mantel compared the bitter Remain lobby to the ‘army of erasers’ she had encountered in Saudi Arabia, who dealt with things they didn’t like — pork, Israel, women’s equality — by simply removing mention of them from public life.

Interestingly, Mervyn King, the former governor of the Bank of England, observed that the disdain the Establishment showed for those worried about the EU had probably encouraged many to vote Leave — and attacked those who claimed ‘if you even contemplate voting for Brexit, you must be either ignorant, uneducated, stupid or racist.’

The emphasis of many critics of the referendum was on the ‘lies’ of the Leave campaign and how they had led gullible voters astray.

Yet research by the Electoral Reform Society leads to the opposite conclusion — that the majority declined to be swayed or bullied into submission.

They kept their eyes on the bigger issues and voted Leave because they wanted more control over their own lives, UK politics and the country’s borders.

Millions made the entirely rational calculation that these reasons were important enough to support Leave, even if the immediate economic impact was uncertain and might prove adverse. A fall in the pound could be a price worth paying for an increase in democracy and sovereignty.

Yet still their motives are impugned. One of the nastiest tricks of those who lost the referendum was to claim that those who voted for Brexit (and Trump) were racists and xenophobes. In which case their votes should be seen as morally illegitimate.

But the small-minded prejudices actually on display here were those of leading Remainers towards working-class voters.

The sad truth is that to the elite, such people are far more alien than suave Brussels bureaucrats.

Significantly, almost immediately after the referendum result, a new scare started over a reported spree of ‘hate crimes’ against immigrants in the UK. The political elite seized upon these allegations as proof that the Brexit vote had been a demonstration of British racism.

But does anybody seriously believe that 17.4 million UK voters backed Leave for racist motives?

The truth is that Britain today is a more tolerant and anti-racist society than ever before.

Yes, immigration was an important factor for many Leave voters. But it was far from the over-riding obsession it has been made out to be: a post-referendum poll found 34 per cent said immigration was their main concern but 53 per cent prioritised the ‘ability of Britain to make its own laws’.

The vast majority wanted EU migrants living and working in the UK to be allowed to stay.

Still the attempts went on to subvert the referendum result, with the intervention of the courts. First the Law Lords and then the Supreme Court saw fit to overrule the express wishes of 17.4 million Leave voters and tell the elected government it could not trigger Brexit without the permission of MPs and Lords in Parliament.

The same Parliament they had allowed to be overridden by Brussels for the previous 40 years.

Then there was the four-million-strong online petition calling on Parliament to hold another referendum that would require a larger margin of victory.

In similar vein was the letter signed by a thousand top lawyers, demanding that Parliament must decide (ie, vote for Remain). The QC behind this initiative explained: ‘In times of crisis people often turn to lawyers to ask them how we should behave in society.’

The arrogance of the notion that the opinions of 1,000 lawyers — whose fees are an affront to civilised society — could outweigh those of 17.4 million voters summed up the Remainers’ ‘some are more equal than others’ outlook.

Even now, the attempts continue to put Brexit back in its box, fuelled by a sense that too much democracy is dangerous.

The Brexit referendum vote opened up the opportunity for a new kind of political debate about the future of our society, engaging many who have previously felt excluded from public life.

Time and again, according to the Electoral Reform Society, its researchers heard people say the EU referendum was the first time their vote ‘had truly counted’. They decided for themselves what the truth was about the EU, and made their own choice in defiance of whatever was flung at them by the political class.

But the plain fact is that the elite in this country do not trust the mass of voters, believing we are too unintelligent, misinformed and emotional to make the right decisions on important issues.

Whichever side you took in June in the UK or November in the United States, we need to resist this with all our might.

The real issue should be to defend democratic principles against those who would tell us that some voters are more equal than others.

Aux armes, citoyens!

Adapted from Revolting! by Mick Hume, published by William Collins















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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:14 pm

Thorin wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

No, I'm someone who exercised his democratic right - some would say duty - to vote on one of the most important issues to arise for decades.

The "selfish prigs" are those who couldn't be bothered to vote because they were so convinced  by their own sense of importance and infallibility that they expected everyone else to subscribe to their views rather than actually to think for themselves for once.

Typical elitist Left Wing attitude.

I


I am not left wing and rightly concerned for the future, where the Uk is going into uncharted territory, of which as seen you claimed were pathetic issues to be raised.
Hence in my previous long post to you, its clear you voted with your emotions and not reason

I was responding to Andy. Perhaps you are so worked up that you failed to notice.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:39 pm

Thorin wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:


 (A descent to your usual level of infantile claptrap whenever you are confronted with opinions that upset your sensitivities. Not worth the dignity or effort of a response)
Has it not already been made clear that once the revokation of membership document has been signed, the decision will be constitutionally final and binding?
 Probably for the same number of times that I have to explain to you that in determining an election result the number of eligible voters is irrelevant. If people are too idle to cast a vote, given that these days they don't even have to attend a polling station, then they have no right, in my opinion, to complain about the result. By your yardstick many, if not most, local government election results and trade union strike ballots would be invalid.

(Perhaps that is because you fail to read posts properly in the first place) 
Utterly ridiculous hypothetiical questions. Like everyone else I was given an opportunity to say whether I believed that the UK should remain in the European Union or leave. I have posted on more than one occasion that I voted to leave and I have explained my reasons for doing so. The fact that you either do not agree with those opinions or have even failed to comprehend them is a matter of supreme indifference to me. This is an open opinion forum and not an exclusive vehicle for your frequently flawed arguments. If, for some strange reason, you are demanding "assurances" or "guarantees" then I suggest that you seek them from the only people who are eligible - legally and in terms of professional competence -  to give them. I think you will find David Davies and his team at the House of Commons and his boss, Theresa May, at 10 Downing Street.


1) Contradiction alert. As you have just replied and its clear you know the point stands on bordering of racism, but I expect nothing less from a pompous elitist snob. My reference was to Luxembourg, and Luxembourg is not a race, you fool, it is a tiny country; a geographical area; a small blob on the map of Europe;  a political entity with the quirky historical title of Grand Duchy; A Micky Mouse state.  Your pathetic attempt to play the race card was a clear sign of your your  sheer desperation.

2) Nobody is denying Brexit is going to happen, but you seem upset that the next general election or future ones could not be campaigned to rejoin. Again nothing is set in stone and it seems you are being totalitarian now, that people will have to accept this decision for the rest of humanity. Its blatantly absurd and fails every aspect of what democracy is. What you are saying is future generations have to abide by a vote cast by people who could then be long dead and that the future generations have no say in their own futures. Hence the absurdity of your view point. Not only that people can change their minds on what they voted for, it happens often each general election. That is what is so great about Democracy, you have the ability to correct past mistakes.

3) So you clearly don't believe in true democracy then, as you based a system, where the minority rule, which eloquently adds to the point that has Ben has been making. This has nothing to do with being idle and those wishing to remain should not have need to vote either. As the referendum was on voting to leave the EU, thus, for a true democratic vote would have required the leave campaign to have 50%+. You do understand this do you not? Why should it require people to vote to remain to something they are already in? That is clearly absurd. Spoken like the true loser that you are. So it further proves how Undemocratic the British system of Politics is. This you are happy on, but have the bloody cheek to make said claims onto the EU. Many elections are not fought on a single point, as a Referendum is, which is clearly a major change to the system. I would expect the same for the Scottish Referendum. People voting for different MP's has choices, where a referendum is one choice to vote on.

4) So you claim pathetic questions, even though every single expert admits that the UK is going into uncharted territory and that nobody can predict what happens. Its evident you have not got a clue or even give a shit, if this ruins the economy, jobs etc. What an arrogant selfish emotive stance you hold, showing its clearly not based on reason, but getting your own way. I am sure many people will be happy to know you clearly cannot even offer reassurances for the future and are basically telling to get stuffed and its tough luck if it goes tits up. If it has not yet dawned on you that an individual who has neither power nor influence in the matter cannot legally or even logically give "reassurances" on anything involving political policy and consequences, then you are a buffoon.

That is all I needed to know and prove that even one of the most intelligent posters on here is not swayed by any reason, but completely by emotions on this and even worse cannot even place assurances over the future. Leta lone any contingency plans if things go wrong Are you labouring under the mistaken belief that my real name is David Davis - or even Theresa May?

Thanks
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:19 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:


Luxembourg is not a race, you fool, it is a tiny country; a geographical area; a small blob on the map of Europe;  a political entity with the quirky historical title of Grand Duchy. Your pathetic attempt to play the race card was a clear sign of your your  sheer desperation.

 If it has not yet dawned on you that an individual who has neither power nor influence in the matter cannot legally or even logically give "reassurances" on anything involving political policy and consequences, then you are a buffoon.

 Are you labouring under the mistaken belief that my real name is David Davis - or even Theresa May - you idiot?



Wow even more racist and infinitely stupid, as the bases to deny people an identity, that of Luxembourg is now based on geographical size to you. You have definitely crossed so far over into racism, I beginning to wonder if Scrat was right about you to. Size is irrelevant, when it comes down to a nation state, of which Luxembourg is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Luxembourg

So you are denying a person a Job, not based on their abilities but because you clearly claim the people of Luxembourg are inferior based on the size of its state

It has a bigger population than Malta. So in fact based on size you are now denying a racial classification to my own family, on my father's side. I mean this small blob as you call it was strategically important in WW2. That if it had fallen, Rommel would have had far more supplies reach him and no doubt defeat the British in North Africa. As it would have become a giant Aircraft Carrier for the Axis powers. Leaving little room for the Royal Navy to do anything. Of course the Maltese, all were the reception of the George Cross, but hey. To you its a tin pot blob right?

So you finally admit, you have not got the first clue what you are talking about and admit, you have voted based on a huge gamble at the expense of the entire British populace. As I was easily trying to educate you on something you clearly are a tad of a bit thick on. Its clear that many people voted with their emotions on this issue and none of them can predict, what the future holds. I am under the impression you are debating for Brexit and as seen, you cannot even reassure a single person over this. Let alone come up with any reasonable contingencies if it goes tits up. Now clearly, I don't want it to go wrong, as I don't want to see this country go down the toilet, but the chances of that happening, have vastly increased.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:16 pm

More people voted to leave the eu than for any uk govt in decades!!!



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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:56 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:More people voted to leave the eu than for any uk govt in decades!!!




What does that prove?

Nothing
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:45 pm

Angry Andy wrote:What I find damaging is that a high % of pension aged electorate voted to leave , but in a few years will not be affected by their decision because they will be dead and buried. It is the youth ( under 30's) who will be mainly affected by their decision - with seemingly no recourse to change the decision, and will inherit an uncertain and potentially ruinous legacy. To be old and to vote against the wishes of thecyounger generation, whilst democratic , is morally wrong.
This is why the under 30's are so angry at the likea of people like Fred and Nicko. Selfish, self serving know alls.

How would anyone have known the "wishes" of the younger generation before the vote? Those who voted to leave aren't mind readers, so they can't have done anything morally wrong or been selfish.

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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:48 pm

Thorin wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Then why didn't more young people get off their arses and exercise their right to vote? As I recall, one of the issues raised during the post poll inquest was the sheer number of young eligible voters who did not do so.

Now prattling on about the elderly "voting against the wishes of the younger generation" when so many of the younger generation were obviously just too lazy to turn out is risible, to say the least.


That is because many of the youth, thought it was a foregone conclusion that remain would win.
That is not being lazy is it?
Again Andy makes a fair point about the future and youth.
A sad reality as it maybe but a number who did vote will be dead within the next 10 years and in that time more of the youth will be eligible to vote.
Are you saying, they have no rights to the future and cannot vote for change, just as you did?
However, they have every right to excercize their rights to vote to have this changed.
Through general elections, as nothing is set in stone and I can guarantee that if Brexit does go tits up, you will see a unanimous vote to get back in.

I think a lot of those who voted to leave thought the remainers would win too, but they still turned out to vote.

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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:51 pm


It is what it is!


The fact that so many more of the uk electorate voted to leave the eu, than had ever voted for any of the uk govts that surreptitiously signed us (bit by bit) into it... says it all!!!



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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:44 pm

Angry Andy wrote:What I find damaging is that a high % of pension aged electorate voted to leave , but in a few years will not be affected by their decision because they will be dead and buried. It is the youth ( under 30's) who will be mainly affected by their decision - with seemingly no recourse to change the decision, and will inherit an uncertain and potentially ruinous legacy. To be old and to vote against the wishes of thecyounger generation, whilst democratic , is morally wrong.
This is why the under 30's are so angry at the likea of people like Fred and Nicko. Selfish, self serving know alls.



Older people always have the best interests of their children/grand children/great grand children in mind than their own self interests...



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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:10 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
It is what it is!


The fact that so many more of the uk electorate voted to leave the eu, than had ever voted for any of the uk govts that surreptitiously signed us (bit by bit) into it... says it all!!!




Again, what does that prove?

Nothing
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:10 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:


That is because many of the youth, thought it was a foregone conclusion that remain would win.
That is not being lazy is it?
Again Andy makes a fair point about the future and youth.
A sad reality as it maybe but a number who did vote will be dead within the next 10 years and in that time more of the youth will be eligible to vote.
Are you saying, they have no rights to the future and cannot vote for change, just as you did?
However, they have every right to excercize their rights to vote to have this changed.
Through general elections, as nothing is set in stone and I can guarantee that if Brexit does go tits up, you will see a unanimous vote to get back in.

I think a lot of those who voted to leave thought the remainers would win too, but they still turned out to vote.

Which shows that the remainers were too over confident
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:23 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
It is what it is!


The fact that so many more of the uk electorate voted to leave the eu, than had ever voted for any of the uk govts that surreptitiously signed us (bit by bit) into it... says it all!!!




Again, what does that prove?

Nothing


It proves that there is a massively larger democratic mandate for leaving the eu than there has ever been permission for any uk govts signing away uk population onto the eu!!!

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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:25 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Again, what does that prove?

Nothing


It proves that there is a massively larger democratic mandate for leaving the eu than there has ever been permission for any uk govts signing away uk population onto the eu!!!


How is 38% a massively larger democratic mandate?

Its not even a majority of those eligible to vote
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:38 pm

It was many millions more who voted leave than there was ever who voted for any elected govt over the last few decades!!!


Maybe you can show us evidence of any elected govt over the last 40 years, who signed us bit by bit away to the eu, who were elected with more votes than the number of uk electorate who voted to leave the eu...???


Wasn't it 17.6 million who voted to leave the eu...!?


Show us any govt who signed us away into more and more eu that had more votes than the number who voted leave!!??

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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:41 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It was many millions more who voted leave than there was ever who voted for any elected govt over the last few decades!!!


Maybe you can show us evidence of any elected govt over the last 40 years, who signed us bit by bit away to the eu, who were elected with more votes than the number of uk electorate who voted to leave the eu...???


Wasn't it 17.6 million who voted to leave the eu...!?


Show us any govt who signed us away into more and more eu that had more votes than the number who voted leave!!??


1) Again, what does that prove?

Nothing

2) Again what does that prove?

Nothing

3) Which is 38% of those eligible to vote, not a majority

4) Again, what does that prove?

Nothing
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:49 pm

Thorin wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:


Luxembourg is not a race, you fool, it is a tiny country; a geographical area; a small blob on the map of Europe;  a political entity with the quirky historical title of Grand Duchy. Your pathetic attempt to play the race card was a clear sign of your your  sheer desperation.

 If it has not yet dawned on you that an individual who has neither power nor influence in the matter cannot legally or even logically give "reassurances" on anything involving political policy and consequences, then you are a buffoon.

 Are you labouring under the mistaken belief that my real name is David Davis - or even Theresa May - you idiot?



Wow even more racist and infinitely stupid, as the bases to deny people an identity, that of Luxembourg is now based on geographical size to you. You have definitely crossed so far over into racism, I beginning to wonder if Scrat was right about you to. Size is irrelevant, when it comes down to a nation state, of which Luxembourg is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Luxembourg

So you are denying a person a Job, not based on their abilities but because you clearly claim the people of Luxembourg are inferior based on the size of its state

It has a bigger population than Malta. So in fact based on size you are now denying a racial classification to my own family, on my father's side. I mean this small blob as you call it was strategically important in WW2. That if it had fallen, Rommel would have had far more supplies reach him and no doubt defeat the British in North Africa. As it would have become a giant Aircraft Carrier for the Axis powers. Leaving little room for the Royal Navy to do anything. Of course the Maltese, all were the reception of the George Cross, but hey. To you its a tin pot blob right?

So you finally admit, you have not got the first clue what you are talking about and admit, you have voted based on a huge gamble at the expense of the entire British populace. As I was easily trying to educate you on something you clearly are a tad of a bit thick on. Its clear that many people voted with their emotions on this issue and none of them can predict, what the future holds. I am under the impression you are debating for Brexit and as seen, you cannot even reassure a single person over this. Let alone come up with any reasonable contingencies if it goes tits up. Now clearly, I don't want it to go wrong, as I don't want to see this country go down the toilet, but the chances of that happening, have vastly increased.

When it comes to spewing out pure, unadulterated gibberish, that load of hysterical tripe emerges supreme.

And it is intriguing to note, since you mention the little shit, that you have now lowered yourself into the gutter alongside Scrat by adopting his well known tactic of twisting words, creating an outright lie - his usual one was of racism, too -and then repeating it in the hope that others will believe it.

Wasn't Goebbels the master of that art? He would no doubt have been proud of the pair of you.

The only Luxembourger I have mentioned is Juncker , the man primarily responsible for many of the EU's ills because of his dogged determination to bring about a United States of Europe by stealth, whether the people of Europe want it or not, and his proven incompetence to deal with the enormous problems of the European economic and migration crises because of the sheer limitations of his background in both statesmanship and international diplomacy.

And you, backed up by your usual plagiarised cut and pasted irrelevancy, go on to translate that into the downright lie that I have called the people of Luxembourg "inferior" and of "denying them a racial classification."

You may well feel you have a right to object to my calling a country a Micky Mouse state...though to many people that's what Luxembourg is...a quaint little country styling itself a Grand Duchy. But presumably the fact that an actual country is in no way a race and that poking fun at a geographical entity cannot, by any stretch of even your warped imagination, be raciscm is clearly a concept that is beyond your mental capacity.

And, naturally, you have thrown in your usual stupid boast about how you "educate" others in this forum...though frankly, given your predilection for plagiarising, cutting and pasting the work of others and frequently producing rambling material that is as ungrammatical as it is almost incoherent, you do not have the ability to teach a dog how to lick its own arse.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:53 pm

More people voted to leave the eu than has ever voted for any govt over the last 49 years who have been responsible for signing us away further and further into the eu!!!


That is a big statement of the democratic will of the british people!!!

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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:02 am

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Wow even more racist and infinitely stupid, as the bases to deny people an identity, that of Luxembourg is now based on geographical size to you. You have definitely crossed so far over into racism, I beginning to wonder if Scrat was right about you to. Size is irrelevant, when it comes down to a nation state, of which Luxembourg is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Luxembourg

So you are denying a person a Job, not based on their abilities but because you clearly claim the people of Luxembourg are inferior based on the size of its state

It has a bigger population than Malta. So in fact based on size you are now denying a racial classification to my own family, on my father's side. I mean this small blob as you call it was strategically important in WW2. That if it had fallen, Rommel would have had far more supplies reach him and no doubt defeat the British in North Africa. As it would have become a giant Aircraft Carrier for the Axis powers. Leaving little room for the Royal Navy to do anything. Of course the Maltese, all were the reception of the George Cross, but hey. To you its a tin pot blob right?

So you finally admit, you have not got the first clue what you are talking about and admit, you have voted based on a huge gamble at the expense of the entire British populace. As I was easily trying to educate you on something you clearly are a tad of a bit thick on. Its clear that many people voted with their emotions on this issue and none of them can predict, what the future holds. I am under the impression you are debating for Brexit and as seen, you cannot even reassure a single person over this. Let alone come up with any reasonable contingencies if it goes tits up. Now clearly, I don't want it to go wrong, as I don't want to see this country go down the toilet, but the chances of that happening, have vastly increased.

When it comes to spewing out pure, unadulterated gibberish, that load of hysterical tripe emerges supreme.

And it is intriguing to note, since you mention the little shit, that you have now lowered yourself into the gutter alongside Scrat by adopting his well known tactic of twisting words, creating an outright lie - his usual one was of racism, too -and then repeating it in the hope that others will believe it.

Wasn't Goebbels the master of that art? He would no doubt have been proud of the pair of you.

The only Luxembourger I have mentioned is Juncker , the man primarily responsible for many of the EU's ills because of his dogged determination to bring about a United States of Europe by stealth, whether the people of Europe want it or not, and his proven incompetence to deal with the enormous problems of the European economic and  migration crises because of the sheer limitations of his background in both statesmanship and international diplomacy.

And you, backed up by your usual plagiarised cut and pasted irrelevancy, go on to translate that into the downright lie that I have called the people of Luxembourg "inferior" and of "denying them a racial classification."

You may well feel you have a right to object to my calling a country a Micky Mouse state...though to many people that's what Luxembourg is...a quaint little country styling itself a Grand Duchy. But presumably the fact that an actual country is in no way a race and that poking fun at a geographical entity cannot, by any stretch of even your warped imagination, be raciscm is clearly a concept that is beyond your mental capacity.

And, naturally, you have thrown in your usual stupid boast about how you "educate" others in this forum...though frankly, given your predilection for plagiarising, cutting and pasting the work of others and frequently producing rambling material that is as ungrammatical as it is almost incoherent, you do not have the ability to teach a dog how to lick its own arse.

1) Nice that you speak so highly of him, when are you going  move on and grow up? You would think you should be able to that by now. Its just a forum, and yet you hold a venom hate for him, just as he does for you. Its pathetic

2) Ahhh, now you speak properly critical about his abilities, which you should have done so on the first place. Sadly you never. You went off a racist stance, and even worse demeaning the country of Luxembourg itself, off his failings. That was not your first claim, which was on him not being fit for the job, based solely on you claiming it was a pit pot state. Verdict:
Racism

3) How is a link, plagiarism exactly? Its a link to show, that after you were disgustingly demeaning to the nation state of Luxembourg, which you still are making the most pathetic excuses to. Proves that its a people classified as racial group. Next you will be telling me you cannot be racist towards the Irish, are you going to claim that is now not possible where people have demeaned them over their intelligence for example, simply because they come from Ireland. This is why you are ignorant to the fact, you did cross over into racism here and even worse. Come out with the worst apologist defense.

4) So again, you even further back up your stance that based on the size of a nation and its population is for you acceptable to demean that nation, on nothing based on reason but size. I would laugh, but you are in fact serious over this. So like I said I am sure the people of Malta, would be very interested for you to classify them that way, but you would not do that, would you sweetie?

So on every count you are wrong here, you can be racist towards someone Irish, English and also a Luxembourger.

I love how where also I have not even C&P, but offered a link to back the fact you were racist, you go into meltdown mode accusing me of this

Talk about a piss poor misdirection, to poorly get out of your blatant racism.
Now I don;t think you are racist per say, but its evident, you were blatantly racist here.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:22 am

Tommy Monk wrote:More people voted to leave the eu than has ever voted for any govt over the last 49 years who have been responsible for signing us away further and further into the eu!!!


That is a big statement of the democratic will of the british people!!!

And perhaps, given the current state of the EU, it will also turn out to have been a wise choice.

I wonder how long the Germans will continue to bankroll that basket case economy in Greece? Or how long the Greek people will put up with the savage austerity and increasing impoverishment that seems mostly to be at the behest of the Germans and force their government into quitting the Eurozone - or even quitting the EU?

And I wonder just how long it will be before the sheer scale of the immigration crisis will cause a complete breakdown in law and order in one or more of the countries in the southern part of the EU?

Or how Putin is going to react to the twin EU policies of expansion and ever closer union as they continue to unfold?.

Or, indeed, just what the political map of Europe is going to look like after the French, German and Italian elections...

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't have any answers - only fears.

But hey, according to one self-appointed know-all in this forum I'm just an old has-been who cast my vote without thinking and with consideration for only myself.

Frankly I am beginning to wonder just how many of those now raging hysterically against Brexit and Brexiteers are suffering an increasingly guilty conscience because, like all those young people cited by Thorin, they felt they had no need to take the trouble to vote because they were sure the result would be a win for Remain.



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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:22 am

The reason I mention Malta, is because the current President of the EU is Maltese, as part of the rotation of EU member states. 

Are you going to claim he cannot lead the EU for 6 months, because he is Maltese and from what you classify, as a piss pot state, due to its size?

Don't you think on that absurd and prejudice view on population and geographical size alone, the world would classify you as being racist towards the Maltese?
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:27 am

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:More people voted to leave the eu than has ever voted for any govt over the last 49 years who have been responsible for signing us away further and further into the eu!!!


That is a big statement of the democratic will of the british people!!!



But hey, according to one self-appointed know-all in this forum I'm just an old has-been who cast my vote without thinking and with consideration for only myself.


Clearly talking about me, so funny, that you further lie
Ahh, another unfounded accusation, which we both know you cannot back up, as i clearly said, you have the right to your vote. I also said that the future is not set in stone and true democracy allows for the change of poor mistakes. I certainly never called you an old has-been.
I can reason why you were racist, but please spare telling porkies, because you got caught out here.

Wink
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:44 am

Thorin wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

When it comes to spewing out pure, unadulterated gibberish, that load of hysterical tripe emerges supreme.

And it is intriguing to note, since you mention the little shit, that you have now lowered yourself into the gutter alongside Scrat by adopting his well known tactic of twisting words, creating an outright lie - his usual one was of racism, too -and then repeating it in the hope that others will believe it.

Wasn't Goebbels the master of that art? He would no doubt have been proud of the pair of you.

The only Luxembourger I have mentioned is Juncker , the man primarily responsible for many of the EU's ills because of his dogged determination to bring about a United States of Europe by stealth, whether the people of Europe want it or not, and his proven incompetence to deal with the enormous problems of the European economic and  migration crises because of the sheer limitations of his background in both statesmanship and international diplomacy.

And you, backed up by your usual plagiarised cut and pasted irrelevancy, go on to translate that into the downright lie that I have called the people of Luxembourg "inferior" and of "denying them a racial classification."

You may well feel you have a right to object to my calling a country a Micky Mouse state...though to many people that's what Luxembourg is...a quaint little country styling itself a Grand Duchy. But presumably the fact that an actual country is in no way a race and that poking fun at a geographical entity cannot, by any stretch of even your warped imagination, be raciscm is clearly a concept that is beyond your mental capacity.

And, naturally, you have thrown in your usual stupid boast about how you "educate" others in this forum...though frankly, given your predilection for plagiarising, cutting and pasting the work of others and frequently producing rambling material that is as ungrammatical as it is almost incoherent, you do not have the ability to teach a dog how to lick its own arse.

1) Nice that you speak so highly of him, when are you going  move on and grow up? Remind us just who chose to introduce Scrat into the discussion. You would think you should be able to that by now. Its just a forum, and yet you hold a venom hate for him, just as he does for you. Its pathetic

2) Ahhh, now you speak properly critical about his abilities, which you should have done so on the first place. I never at any point even mentioned the people of Luxembourg; I mention the President of the EU. The last time I looked his name was Juncker. Sadly you never. You went off a racist stance, Liar and even worse demeaning the country of Luxembourg itself, off his failings. That was not your first claim, which was on him not being fit for the job, based solely on you claiming it was a pit pot stat. Verdict:
Racism Another lie. Show us where I used the words "piss pot state" Had I done so I would at least have spelled them correctly.

3) How is a link, plagiarism exactly? Its a link to show, that after you were disgustingly demeaning to the nation state of Luxembourg, which you still are making the most pathetic excuses to. Proves that its a people classified as racial group. Next you will be telling me you cannot be racist towards the Irish, Of course one can be racist towards the Irish. One cannot, however, be racist towards the island of Ireland. Idiot.are you going to claim that is now not possible where people have demeaned them over their intelligence for example, simply because they come from Ireland. This is why you are ignorant to the fact, you did cross over into racism here and even worse. Come out with the worst apologist defense.

4) So again, you even further back up your stance that based on the size of a nation and its population is for you acceptable to demean that nation, on nothing based on reason but size. I would laugh, but you are in fact serious over this. So like I said I am sure the people of Malta, would be very interested for you to classify them that way, but you would not do that, would you sweetie?

So on every count you are wrong here, you can be racist towards someone Irish, English and also a Luxembourger. I give up. You are either congenitally thick or stoned out of your tiny mind. Go back, read my previous attempts to prove the blindingly obvious differences between a person and a lump of rock and then try again. Preferably when your brain is functioning with something at least approaching normality.

I love how where also I have not even C&P, but offered a link to back the fact you were racist, you go into meltdown mode accusing me of this

Talk about a piss poor misdirection, to poorly get out of your blatant racism.
Now I don;t think you are racist per say, but its evident, you were blatantly racist here.
I am not even going to attempt to translate that gibberish into English. I'm going to bed.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:48 am

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Thorin wrote:

1) Nice that you speak so highly of him, when are you going  move on and grow up? Remind us just who chose to introduce Scrat into the discussion. You would think you should be able to that by now. Its just a forum, and yet you hold a venom hate for him, just as he does for you. Its pathetic

2) Ahhh, now you speak properly critical about his abilities, which you should have done so on the first place. I never at any point even mentioned the people of Luxembourg; I mention the President of the EU. The last time I looked his name was Juncker. Sadly you never. You went off a racist stance, Liar and even worse demeaning the country of Luxembourg itself, off his failings. That was not your first claim, which was on him not being fit for the job, based solely on you claiming it was a pit pot stat. Verdict:
Racism Another lie. Show us where I used the words "piss pot state" Had I done so I would at least have spelled them correctly.

3) How is a link, plagiarism exactly? Its a link to show, that after you were disgustingly demeaning to the nation state of Luxembourg, which you still are making the most pathetic excuses to. Proves that its a people classified as racial group. Next you will be telling me you cannot be racist towards the Irish, Of course one can be racist towards the Irish. One cannot, however, be racist towards the island of Eire. Idiot.are you going to claim that is now not possible where people have demeaned them over their intelligence for example, simply because they come from Ireland. This is why you are ignorant to the fact, you did cross over into racism here and even worse. Come out with the worst apologist defense.

4) So again, you even further back up your stance that based on the size of a nation and its population is for you acceptable to demean that nation, on nothing based on reason but size. I would laugh, but you are in fact serious over this. So like I said I am sure the people of Malta, would be very interested for you to classify them that way, but you would not do that, would you sweetie?

So on every count you are wrong here, you can be racist towards someone Irish, English and also a Luxembourger. I give up. You are either congenitally thick or stoned out of your tiny mind. Go back, read my previous attempts to prove the blindingly obvious differences between a person and a lump of rock and then try again. Preferably when your brain is functioning with something at least approaching normality.

I love how where also I have not even C&P, but offered a link to back the fact you were racist, you go into meltdown mode accusing me of this

Talk about a piss poor misdirection, to poorly get out of your blatant racism.
Now I don;t think you are racist per say, but its evident, you were blatantly racist here.
I am not even going to attempt to translate that gibberish into English. I'm going to bed.

Your words:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:Why do you think that the present wannabe President of the US o E - a politician of such high world status that he was formerly Prime Minister of a Micky Mouse state with an economy about half that of Birmingham - is desperate for Brussels control of all member economies, tax regimes, armed forces, etc., etc., ad nauseam and ad infinitum? 

You are arguing against him being President based solely on the nation his is from, on its geographical and population size.

You certainly said "tin pot", no different from "piss pot"

So again

The reason I mention Malta, is because the current President of the EU is Maltese, as part of the rotation of EU member states. 

Are you going to claim he cannot lead the EU for 6 months, because he is Maltese and from what you classify, as a piss pot state, due to its size?

Don't you think on that absurd and prejudice view on population and geographical size alone, the world would classify you as being racist towards the Maltese?

Verdict

You were racist
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:54 am

Thorin wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:



But hey, according to one self-appointed know-all in this forum I'm just an old has-been who cast my vote without thinking and with consideration for only myself.


Clearly talking about me, so funny, that you further lie
Ahh, another unfounded accusation, which we both know you cannot back up, as i clearly said, you have the right to your vote. I also said that the future is not set in stone and true democracy allows for the change of poor mistakes. I certainly never called you an old has-been.
I can reason why you were racist, but please spare telling porkies, because you got caught out here.

Wink

I was referring to Angry Andy. He made the accusation before you did and, as I recall, used words like selfish prig. Sorry to deflate your over inflated ego, but I don't consider your presence to be the most important element of my waking hours.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:56 am

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Clearly talking about me, so funny, that you further lie
Ahh, another unfounded accusation, which we both know you cannot back up, as i clearly said, you have the right to your vote. I also said that the future is not set in stone and true democracy allows for the change of poor mistakes. I certainly never called you an old has-been.
I can reason why you were racist, but please spare telling porkies, because you got caught out here.

Wink

I was referring to Angry Andy. He made the accusation before you did and, as I recall, used words like selfish prig. Sorry to deflate your over inflated ego, but I don't consider your presence to be the most important element of my waking hours.


You are such a liar, as when have you called Andy "self-appointed know-all"
You reserve that only for me, when I show you up, as I am doing here.

You best wash your mouth out with soap

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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:10 am

Anyway, am off to bed, I shall allow Fred to continue to do the following:




Night

Smile
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:37 am

Thorin wrote:Anyway, am off to bed, I shall allow Fred to continue to do the following:




Night

Smile

I'm afraid I have little time to continue to prick your over-inflated ego today...it's my turn to wear the Junior KKK Club pointy hat and go and racially abuse the village football pitch.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Angry Andy on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:42 am

I thought you had to catch the care in the community minibus to the day centre, where you can all plot the downfall of Neil Kinnock and Harold Wilson.

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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Thorin on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:32 am

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Thorin wrote:Anyway, am off to bed, I shall allow Fred to continue to do the following:




Night

Smile

I'm afraid I have little time to continue to prick your over-inflated ego today...it's my turn to wear the Junior KKK Club pointy hat and go and racially abuse the village football pitch.

Freddy baby. You need to chill out and calm down. I don't have an over inflated ego. I do love making sport of people who tend to look down on people. This is evident, when you go on about my grammar, claim I copy and paste, when most of my posts, are composed by me and I use links to support my claim. Claim I am all knowledgeable, inflated ego etc. Its just proves to me you are acting immature.

Just seems you are unable to take any criticism.

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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:55 pm

Angry Andy wrote:I thought you had to catch the care in the community minibus to the day centre, where you can all plot the downfall of Neil Kinnock and Harold Wilson.

No, Clem Attlee.....and I'll be driving the minibus because you lot think the job is beneath you.
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