I’ve Worked Hard In The NHS For 17 Years But Since Brexit I’ve Felt Like A Second Class Citizen

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:00 am

First topic message reminder :

This blog is an unedited version of a speech, which will be delivered by Joan Pons Laplana, on Monday. He will be speaking at a One Day Without Us event organised with Unison.

I came to the UK 17 years ago to pursue my dream of becoming a nurse. I landed in Luton on bonfire night with just £50 in my pocket and a suitcase full of hope. I have worked hard for the NHS ever since.

I am one of the three million EU citizens who live in this country but I feel that the government is treating us as a commodity at the Brexit table.

I love England and I have raised my family here. My kids are British. I have never had any problem or felt discriminated against, but since Brexit, I’ve started to feel like a second class citizen just because of my accent. I have been attacked on social media and what makes me even more angry is that my kids are being affected.

A year ago my 14 years old son asked me if I was going to be forced to go back to Spain if Brexit goes ahead and a year on I still have no answer. My daughter, aged 11, came home crying from school the other day and when I asked her why she told me that another child told her that I was not welcome in the UK and that I would be thrown out very soon. My daughter was heartbroken and asked me if that was true. I could not in all honesty say no!

Is it right that my daughter doesn’t want to go on holidays to Spain this year to see her grandparents because she fears I will not be able to come back?

Brexit is not only affecting nurses already here. Applications from EU nurses wanting to come here have plummeted by 90%. The UK is no longer the first choice for EU nurses looking for a job. Also many of my colleagues who have been here less than five years are starting to leave because of the uncertain future.

I know that NHS England has told us not to panic, but for how long must our lives and futures be on hold? The current situation is unacceptable. We are people with feelings not ‘negotiating capital’. The UK is our home and the government must guarantee the rights of EU nationals in the UK immediately and not, as has been hinted, at some distant point in the future.

Vague assurances are not enough. Our lives have been put in limbo since Brexit. We are facing an uncertain and bleak future in the wake of the referendum result and the anguish and ongoing stress that this is causing to individuals and families is immense.

We came to the UK in good faith and we have made our home and our lives here. We contribute on every level and in every sector of British society. Many EU nationals are already severely affected by the current Home Office stance and families are being torn apart.

When this country is so short of nurses we cannot afford to put people off in this way. 17 years ago, I was warmly invited to build my life here. I was told it was my home from home. I was told I could settle down, marry a Brit and make my life here. Yet today I am told I’m a foreigner and should go back where I come from. Things are getting so bad that many of my fellow EU citizens hardly dare to speak their own language on the streets for fear of being insulted or attacked. Our very own identity is being challenged, our future, our life. Diversity is what makes a society prosper. I was born in Spain but lived most of my adulthood life in Britain.

I am British! Diversity is what made Britain so special, what has made Britain great: its soft power, a mixture of charm, tolerance, creative spirit and openness. Immigrants are not the problem, Xenophobia is. We need to stop this madness. As Jo Cox once said we have more things in common.




http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/joan-pons-laplana/brexit-nhs_b_14876380.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:03 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Really...?


How do you work that out...?


How much tax do you think a nurse pays in a year...?


While school places are £6000 a year each and tax credits + child benefit would amount to over £10000 a year on top...!?


Then add on all the other associated costs to public services etc...


sorry tommy accidentally clicked a red there. need to replace my mouse batteries.

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:08 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Really...?


How do you work that out...?


How much tax do you think a nurse pays in a year...?


While school places are £6000 a year each and tax credits + child benefit would amount to over £10000 a year on top...!?


Then add on all the other associated costs to public services etc...



Easily, based off how much he has given into the system, caring for people.
How much has he cost the system, considering he never went to school here?
So again that first part of his life was a cost to his own country, not the UK.
That means those born here like I said, cost far more to the system, than he does in the years he has been here.
dont know how much tax he has paid over the years, but it is a valid point about school places and tax credits. He has worked for the NHS and that is laudable, but presumably he could have done the same in his own country as well and contributed to their health care system?
I dont have a problem with those that come to work. The NHS would be hard up without foreign workers.
but for every foreign nurse or doctor britain takes, we deprive the home country of a doctor or nurse. I might be wrong but perhaps they chose to work in the NHS for money rather than altruism.

Having worked in many unison offices across the west of england I would take with a pinch of salt anything that came from them.

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:10 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Well if someone is speaking a "foreign" language, of course they'll be seen as a "foreigner".

Really?
So a child who is born here and speaks multiple languages, will be seen as foreign?
Or an adult?
How exactly?
So any Welsh, speaking Gaelic are foreign to you?
here's a big bunch of hairs for you to split.
I’ve Worked Hard In The NHS For 17 Years But Since Brexit I’ve Felt Like A Second Class Citizen - Page 2 Split-Ends-hair-what-to-do

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:11 pm

Jules wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I don't think this is the case - nobody cares where a person comes from and think this story is exaggerated and just playing the race card .

There are so many foreign workers here in the uk its just as it is and I've never found any of them feel  they are treated differently .

What a bizzare thing to say on a forum. Shocked You profess to know how all these coloured people feel??? How do you know?  

1.Are you the union leader of nurses and midwives? - the official representative whom they all go to with their problems?
2. Or do you socialise with these people, go out drinking and dining with them on nights out - cos only in that relaxed atmosphere will they let it be known what is truly in their hearts.
3. Or do you have one of those kindly, approachable faces which makes even complete strangers run up to you and tell you all their problems?
4. Or are you simply psychic?

scratch
aeren't you also professing to know them?

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:12 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:It was a reply to this from vod...


"...There are so many foreign workers here in the uk its just as it is and I've never found any of them feel  they are treated differently..."


Well has she met 7,993,480 of the foreign born population in this country?
Do you think she clearly has not even met no more than 50?
She would need to seriously get out more to gain a perspective on that amount of foreign born people, dont you think?
Considering its well known that Dibs is a stay at home mum, how on earth would she know people in work and foreign, in great numbers?
So its hardly surprising she has not met many at all. I doubt she has met many foreigners in work full stop.,
if she has met 50 and non have felt treated differently then she could quite rightly extrapolate.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:14 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Easily, based off how much he has given into the system, caring for people.
How much has he cost the system, considering he never went to school here?
So again that first part of his life was a cost to his own country, not the UK.
That means those born here like I said, cost far more to the system, than he does in the years he has been here.
dont know how much tax he has paid over the years, but it is a valid point about school places and tax credits. He has worked for the NHS and that is laudable, but presumably he could have done the same in his own country as well and contributed to their health care system?
I dont have a problem with those that come to work. The NHS would be hard up without foreign workers.
but for every foreign nurse or doctor britain takes, we deprive the home country of a doctor or nurse. I might be wrong but perhaps they chose to work in the NHS for money rather than altruism.

Having worked in many unison offices across the west of england I would take with a pinch of salt anything that came from them.


Why is it valid point about school places?
His children are British and the cost is attributed to them.
So again he has paid no doubt far more into the system, than most of those British born. You cannot attribute the cost of his children who are British born. That is 18 years of costs that he is not responsible for, as his home country is.

As to your point on British doctors and nurses, many go to work abroad, because they get paid better. The NHS always has a shortage, so its poor to say they are taking any jobs in the NHS. This is the vicious circle of the world, where those born and trained here often seeked a better life from these years of studying to be doctors. Not only that it takes years for someone to train to be a doctor and in different specific fields

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:15 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Well has she met 7,993,480 of the foreign born population in this country?
Do you think she clearly has not even met no more than 50?
She would need to seriously get out more to gain a perspective on that amount of foreign born people, dont you think?
Considering its well known that Dibs is a stay at home mum, how on earth would she know people in work and foreign, in great numbers?
So its hardly surprising she has not met many at all. I doubt she has met many foreigners in work full stop.,
if she has met 50 and non have felt treated differently then she could quite rightly extrapolate.


But is it then a valid perception of all immigrants here, based off this 50?
The simple answer is no.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:17 pm

Doctors who are newly qualified form a growing proportion of the thousands of British medics seeking jobs abroad each year, triggering concerns that the NHS is heading for a staffing crisis.
Specialist recruitment agencies and GPs’ leaders say doctors, many of whom have just finished their training, are becoming disillusioned with the state of their profession and seeking fresh starts in countries such as Australia, where they can earn double what they are paid in Britain. Figures given to the Observer by the General Medical Council show that an average of 2,852 certificates enabling British doctors to work abroad were issued annually between 2008 and 2014 – a total of 19,522.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/23/new-doctors-leave-nhs-for-better-life-abroad

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:18 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:Was anybody kicking up all this 'alienation' stuff before we joined the EU?   The British Nationality Act 1948 allowed the 800 million subjects in the British Empire to live and work in the United Kingdom without needing a visa.   Where was all the breast clutching then?   Anyone would think that the EU alone has facilitated immigration to the UK.  It hasn't.  We've had immigration going on for decades.  This 'bleeding heart' speech seems to be yet another media attention seeking load of bollocks.
by and large many if not most of those were happy to be in the motherland and embrace british values.
Of course many from the Caribbean and indian sub continent were subjected to racial abuse, but they still got on with it.


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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:21 pm

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:Was anybody kicking up all this 'alienation' stuff before we joined the EU?   The British Nationality Act 1948 allowed the 800 million subjects in the British Empire to live and work in the United Kingdom without needing a visa.   Where was all the breast clutching then?   Anyone would think that the EU alone has facilitated immigration to the UK.  It hasn't.  We've had immigration going on for decades.  This 'bleeding heart' speech seems to be yet another media attention seeking load of bollocks.


Plenty of people have always kicked up a fuss about immigration to this country, it started in the 1950's, but this is about where people do not need to even become British citizens, because they are part of the EU
So you are talking at something completely different. The reality is though many since Brexit, have been made to feel not welcome, just like previously all the way back to the 1950's with any immigrants.
As EU citizens, they do not have to become British citizens and today, the Government is going to ensure that those EU citizens with have their rights protected. So clearly they disagree with you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-citizens-rights-uk-brexit-hope-house-of-lords-cross-party-meaningful-vote-bowness-hannay_uk_58aebb9fe4b057efdce92fe6?utm_hp_ref=uk

I would hope that Romanian pickpocket gangs have been made to feel unwelcome. I would hope those that come here to claim benefits to send back to their home country to build luxury, by their standards, houses also realise the gravy train is coming to an end. Britain has enough beggars without importing them from eastern europe. I for one miss the scottish drunk with a harmonica swaying on a street corner with his hand out.



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Israel uses weapons to protect its people, the Palestinians use people to protect their weapons
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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:22 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
dont know how much tax he has paid over the years, but it is a valid point about school places and tax credits. He has worked for the NHS and that is laudable, but presumably he could have done the same in his own country as well and contributed to their health care system?
I dont have a problem with those that come to work. The NHS would be hard up without foreign workers.
but for every foreign nurse or doctor britain takes, we deprive the home country of a doctor or nurse. I might be wrong but perhaps they chose to work in the NHS for money rather than altruism.

Having worked in many unison offices across the west of england I would take with a pinch of salt anything that came from them.


Why is it valid point about school places?
His children are British and the cost is attributed to them.
So again he has paid no doubt far more into the system, than most of those British born. You cannot attribute the cost of his children who are British born. That is 18 years of costs that he is not responsible for, as his home country is.

As to your point on British doctors and nurses, many go to work abroad, because they get paid better. The NHS always has a shortage, so its poor to say they are taking any jobs in the NHS. This is the vicious circle of the world, where those born and trained here often seeked a better life from these years of studying to be doctors. Not only that it takes years for someone to train to be a doctor and in different specific fields
it is a valid point because some may come with children not born in britain.

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Israel uses weapons to protect its people, the Palestinians use people to protect their weapons
IF you vote labour under corbyn you are an antisemite.
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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:23 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
if she has met 50 and non have felt treated differently then she could quite rightly extrapolate.


But is it then a valid perception of all immigrants here, based off this 50?
The simple answer is no.
yet you are suggesting it is valid from a single media piece put out by unison who have their own axe to grind.,

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Israel uses weapons to protect its people, the Palestinians use people to protect their weapons
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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:24 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Plenty of people have always kicked up a fuss about immigration to this country, it started in the 1950's, but this is about where people do not need to even become British citizens, because they are part of the EU
So you are talking at something completely different. The reality is though many since Brexit, have been made to feel not welcome, just like previously all the way back to the 1950's with any immigrants.
As EU citizens, they do not have to become British citizens and today, the Government is going to ensure that those EU citizens with have their rights protected. So clearly they disagree with you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-citizens-rights-uk-brexit-hope-house-of-lords-cross-party-meaningful-vote-bowness-hannay_uk_58aebb9fe4b057efdce92fe6?utm_hp_ref=uk

I would hope that Romanian pickpocket gangs have been made to feel unwelcome. I would hope those that come here to claim benefits to send back to their home country to build luxury, by their standards, houses also realise the gravy train is coming to an end.  Britain has enough beggars without importing them from eastern europe. I for one miss the scottish drunk with a harmonica swaying on a street corner with his hand out.




Misdirection, going off a minute amount of foreigners, as if this should mean demeaning all foreigners.
Nobody is importing beggars either.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:24 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Why is it valid point about school places?
His children are British and the cost is attributed to them.
So again he has paid no doubt far more into the system, than most of those British born. You cannot attribute the cost of his children who are British born. That is 18 years of costs that he is not responsible for, as his home country is.

As to your point on British doctors and nurses, many go to work abroad, because they get paid better. The NHS always has a shortage, so its poor to say they are taking any jobs in the NHS. This is the vicious circle of the world, where those born and trained here often seeked a better life from these years of studying to be doctors. Not only that it takes years for someone to train to be a doctor and in different specific fields
it is a valid point because some may come with children not born in britain.


Its not valid when the point was based on this person

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:24 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:


But is it then a valid perception of all immigrants here, based off this 50?
The simple answer is no.
yet you are suggesting it is valid from a single media piece put out by unison who have their own axe to grind.,


Its the valid view of this individual and his family

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:25 pm

Thorin wrote:Doctors who are newly qualified form a growing proportion of the thousands of British medics seeking jobs abroad each year, triggering concerns that the NHS is heading for a staffing crisis.
Specialist recruitment agencies and GPs’ leaders say doctors, many of whom have just finished their training, are becoming disillusioned with the state of their profession and seeking fresh starts in countries such as Australia, where they can earn double what they are paid in Britain. Figures given to the Observer by the General Medical Council show that an average of 2,852 certificates enabling British doctors to work abroad were issued annually between 2008 and 2014 – a total of 19,522.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/23/new-doctors-leave-nhs-for-better-life-abroad
yes and that is entirely wrong. The uk has spent millions training them and they qualify and run off, that is exactly why they need to be required to work for the NHS for a set number of years before they can move away, or they repay their full training costs

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Israel uses weapons to protect its people, the Palestinians use people to protect their weapons
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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:26 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:Doctors who are newly qualified form a growing proportion of the thousands of British medics seeking jobs abroad each year, triggering concerns that the NHS is heading for a staffing crisis.
Specialist recruitment agencies and GPs’ leaders say doctors, many of whom have just finished their training, are becoming disillusioned with the state of their profession and seeking fresh starts in countries such as Australia, where they can earn double what they are paid in Britain. Figures given to the Observer by the General Medical Council show that an average of 2,852 certificates enabling British doctors to work abroad were issued annually between 2008 and 2014 – a total of 19,522.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/23/new-doctors-leave-nhs-for-better-life-abroad
yes and that is entirely wrong. The uk has spent millions training them and they qualify and run off, that is exactly why they need to be required to work for the NHS for a set number of years before they can move away, or they repay their full training costs


Ah, something we agree on, which would then lessen the need to have qualified people fill the massive gaps in employment within the NHS

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:27 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:

I would hope that Romanian pickpocket gangs have been made to feel unwelcome. I would hope those that come here to claim benefits to send back to their home country to build luxury, by their standards, houses also realise the gravy train is coming to an end.  Britain has enough beggars without importing them from eastern europe. I for one miss the scottish drunk with a harmonica swaying on a street corner with his hand out.




Misdirection, going off a minute amount of foreigners, as if this should mean demeaning all foreigners.
Nobody is importing beggars either.
how is talking about Romanian pickpockets who cannot be stopped from coming here be misdirection?
So you support Romanian pickpockets?



just to save time

I'm waiting.


I'm waiting.


I'm waiting.

_________________
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"

I know a place where your speech is free
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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:28 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
it is a valid point because some may come with children not born in britain.


Its not valid when the point was based on this person
now decide if we are talking about this single person or the problem in general.
you do not seem to be able to deal with multiple ideas at once.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:28 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Misdirection, going off a minute amount of foreigners, as if this should mean demeaning all foreigners.
Nobody is importing beggars either.
how is talking about Romanian pickpockets who cannot be stopped from coming here be misdirection?
So you support Romanian pickpockets?



just to save time

I'm waiting.


I'm waiting.


I'm waiting.


I don't support any criminals
Its misdirection to go off a small amount of criminality, as if to argue against immigration

So easy for me and you did not have to wait more than a minute

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:28 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
yet you are suggesting it is valid from a single media piece put out by unison who have their own axe to grind.,


Its the valid view of this individual and his family
and so is anyone elses view valid then.
Or are we only allowed to accept your view on what and what is not valid.

I think we all know the answer to that

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:29 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Its not valid when the point was based on this person
now decide if we are talking about this single person or the problem in general.
you do not seem to be able to deal with multiple ideas at once.


Well did hge go off how he and his family felt?

Yes, very simple

You seem to be upset again

Laughing

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:30 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Its the valid view of this individual and his family
and so is anyone elses view valid then.
Or are we only allowed to accept your view on what and what is not valid.

I think we all know the answer to that


Not when it makes claims to immigrants based off a minuscule pool of knowing them
Its like claiming all Brits are racist, because the person has met 10 British people and they were all racist.
See how that is not a valid view, as its based off guilty by association
I think we all know, you are unable to reason very well or think clearly

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:34 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
how is talking about Romanian pickpockets who cannot be stopped from coming here be misdirection?
So you support Romanian pickpockets?



just to save time

I'm waiting.


I'm waiting.


I'm waiting.


I don't support any criminals
Its misdirection to go off a small amount of criminality, as if to argue against immigration

So easy for me and you did not have to wait more than a minute
I am using them as an example of why free movement is bad. You do not seem to be able to comprehend that.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:36 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:


I don't support any criminals
Its misdirection to go off a small amount of criminality, as if to argue against immigration

So easy for me and you did not have to wait more than a minute
I am using them as an example of why free movement is bad. You do not seem to be able to comprehend that.


That is not a good example, as all that shows, is that we should have border controls, even with free movement. So checks are done, to prevent those with criminal records entering.
You dont seem to understand anything

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:36 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
and so is anyone elses view valid then.
Or are we only allowed to accept your view on what and what is not valid.

I think we all know the answer to that


Not when it makes claims to immigrants based off a minuscule pool of knowing them
Its like claiming all Brits are racist, because the person has met 10 British people and they were all racist.
See how that is not a valid view, as its based off guilty by association
I think we all know, you are unable to reason very well or think clearly
yet you make the same assumption from this single person.

so others personal experiences are not valid, only the ones on your personally approved list.


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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:37 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
I am using them as an example of why free movement is bad. You do not seem to be able to comprehend that.


That is not a good example, as all that shows, is that we should have border controls, even with free movement. So checks are done, to prevent those with criminal records entering.
You dont seem to understand anything
it doesn't matter if criminal checks are made they still have free movement and can enter under EU rules. We cannot even deport them if they break the law.,

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:37 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Not when it makes claims to immigrants based off a minuscule pool of knowing them
Its like claiming all Brits are racist, because the person has met 10 British people and they were all racist.
See how that is not a valid view, as its based off guilty by association
I think we all know, you are unable to reason very well or think clearly
yet you make the same assumption from this single person.

so others personal experiences are not valid, only the ones on your personally approved list.



Not if they are based off guilt by association

Guilt by Association is a fallacy in which a person rejects a claim simply because it is pointed out that people she dislikes accept the claim. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form: It is pointed out that people person A does not like accept claim P.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:39 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:


That is not a good example, as all that shows, is that we should have border controls, even with free movement. So checks are done, to prevent those with criminal records entering.
You dont seem to understand anything
it doesn't matter if  criminal checks are made they still have free movement and can enter under EU rules. We cannot even deport them if they break the law.,

Then the law should change on that aspect.
Like I said, there should be border checks
Though that does not mean you cannot have free movement, can you?

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:40 pm

Right, am off out to lunch

See ya Deeano

Laughing

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:42 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
it doesn't matter if  criminal checks are made they still have free movement and can enter under EU rules. We cannot even deport them if they break the law.,

Then the law should change on that aspect.
Like I said, there should be border checks
Though that does not mean you cannot have free movement, can you?
you cannot have a border if there is free movement.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:00 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
I don't think this is the case - nobody cares where a person comes from and think this story is exaggerated and just playing the race card .

There are so many foreign workers here in the uk its just as it is and I've never found any of them feel  they are treated differently .


Rolling Eyes

Garbage...

Do you live in a cave  ???

You really should get out more often  !

If i had agreed and sympathised you would still call it garbage Laughing

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Post by Jules on Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:32 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Jules wrote:

What a bizzare thing to say on a forum. Shocked You profess to know how all these coloured people feel??? How do you know?  

1.Are you the union leader of nurses and midwives? - the official representative whom they all go to with their problems?
2. Or do you socialise with these people, go out drinking and dining with them on nights out - cos only in that relaxed atmosphere will they let it be known what is truly in their hearts.
3. Or do you have one of those kindly, approachable faces which makes even complete strangers run up to you and tell you all their problems?
4. Or are you simply psychic?

scratch


aeren't you also professing to know them?
No. I've made no claims, I've given no opinions. My post contained no mention of the EU or immigration.

I merely queried if she was best placed to make the sweeping generalisations she made.

Any opinion which starts with the words ''no one'' or ''every one'' puts the writer in a trap, for a start.
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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:40 pm

Jules wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:


aeren't you also professing to know them?
No. I've made no claims, I've given no opinions. My post contained no mention of the EU or  immigration.

I merely queried if she was best placed to make the sweeping generalisations she made.

Any opinion which starts with the words ''no one'' or ''every one'' puts the writer in a trap, for a start.
didn't she just say none she has met have said they felt treated badly, or words to that effect.

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Post by Jules on Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:42 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:It was a reply to this from vod...


"...There are so many foreign workers here in the uk its just as it is and I've never found any of them feel  they are treated differently..."


Well has she met 7,993,480 of the foreign born population in this country?
Do you think she clearly has not even met no more than 50?
She would need to seriously get out more to gain a perspective on that amount of foreign born people, dont you think?
Considering its well known that Dibs is a stay at home mum, how on earth would she know people in work and foreign, in great numbers?
So its hardly surprising she has not met many at all. I doubt she has met many foreigners in work full stop.,


Going by her posting history (which I have just looked at) VOD does not strike me as a bad sort. But surely she should be wary of speaking on behalf of others.

She said she had not 'found' anyone to be treated differently. 'FOUND'? How reliable are these findings that she found? Are they the result of her doing research, or a poll or canvassing opinions on a large scale?

If, for example, someone starts pontificating about golfing skills, golfing equipment, golf courses etc, it natural to ask them how they come by all that indepth knowledge.


It's all very well saying that this man has no NEED to feel any different, post brexit. But this does not necessarily stop the ill-informed people around him from trying to MAKE him feel different. There are many myths and misconceptions among ill informed people about how brexit will change things , and these ignoramuses are probably the main rreason why this man feels this way.


If someone takes the time and trouble to write a letter saying he is made to feel different post-brexit, do any of us have a right to glibly dismiss it as a load of nonsense?
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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:06 pm

Jules wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I don't think this is the case - nobody cares where a person comes from and think this story is exaggerated and just playing the race card .

There are so many foreign workers here in the uk its just as it is and I've never found any of them feel  they are treated differently .

What a bizzare thing to say on a forum. Shocked You profess to know how all these coloured people feel??? How do you know?  

1.Are you the union leader of nurses and midwives? - the official representative whom they all go to with their problems?
2. Or do you socialise with these people, go out drinking and dining with them on nights out - cos only in that relaxed atmosphere will they let it be known what is truly in their hearts.
3. Or do you have one of those kindly, approachable faces which makes even complete strangers run up to you and tell you all their problems?
4. Or are you simply psychic?

scratch

You assume that all foreign people are "coloured"? Anyway, it's a bit unPC to call people "coloured" these days.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:41 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Then the law should change on that aspect.
Like I said, there should be border checks
Though that does not mean you cannot have free movement, can you?
you cannot have a border if there is free movement.

Yes you can.
Free movement means for those within the EU to all have the same rights to live and reside within each EU country. You can still have border checks, even for returning citizens of that nation

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:12 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
you cannot have a border if there is free movement.

Yes you can.
Free movement means for those within the EU to all have the same rights to live and reside within each EU country. You can still have border checks, even for returning citizens of that nation
but you cant stop them entering, so you no effective border.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:14 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Yes you can.
Free movement means for those within the EU to all have the same rights to live and reside within each EU country. You can still have border checks, even for returning citizens of that nation
but you cant stop them entering, so you no effective border.


Yes you could if security checks were implemented

So again your view is moot.

You always argue off a claim to something being absolute

It never is.

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:24 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Jules wrote:

What a bizzare thing to say on a forum. Shocked You profess to know how all these coloured people feel??? How do you know?  

1.Are you the union leader of nurses and midwives? - the official representative whom they all go to with their problems?
2. Or do you socialise with these people, go out drinking and dining with them on nights out - cos only in that relaxed atmosphere will they let it be known what is truly in their hearts.
3. Or do you have one of those kindly, approachable faces which makes even complete strangers run up to you and tell you all their problems?
4. Or are you simply psychic?

scratch

You assume that all foreign people are "coloured"? Anyway, it's a bit unPC to call people "coloured" these days.

Our church is full of black white congregation - most of them are doctors nurses . None of them feel unwelcome since the Brexit vote . For two nights my dad has been in intensive care he has got septicemia Sad . Most of the nurses are immigrants some are black and white , I never saw any indication that they feel unwelcome nor did i see any patients or other staff members ( British) ever show any sign that they didn't want them there . Everyone was fantastic getting on with their jobs giving my dad the most wonderful professional care ever .

We were basically told he wouldn't make it through but he has he was sat up last night talking to us better than he has in months, he has responded to medication and things are looking brighter . But there is a long road ahead for us .


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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:26 am

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You assume that all foreign people are "coloured"? Anyway, it's a bit unPC to call people "coloured" these days.

Our church is full of black white congregation - most of them are doctors nurses . None of them feel unwelcome since the Brexit vote . For two nights my dad has been in intensive care he has got septicemia Sad . Most of the nurses are immigrants some are black and white , I never saw any indication that they feel unwelcome nor did i see any patients or other staff members ( British) ever show any sign that they didn't want them there . Everyone was fantastic getting on with their jobs giving my dad the most wonderful professional care ever .

We were basically told he wouldn't make it through but he has he was sat up last night talking to us better than he has in months, he has responded to medication and things are looking brighter . But there is a long road ahead for us .



Saw any indication does not mean, they do not feel unwelcome. Wht is clearly evident by the article, is that some do feel unwelcome. Again the minuscule amount of immigrants you may well know, does not class in anyway how many could feel.

Glad your dad is getting better though, must be horrible.
Septicemia can be easily missed or wrongly diagnosed as something else

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:52 am

Oh FFS. It's obvious that Vod was talking about her own experience. Obviously, she doesn't know every immigrant in the UK, so I don't know why some people are obsessing about what she said.

Glad your father's feeling better Vod.

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:56 am

Raggamuffin wrote:Oh FFS. It's obvious that Vod was talking about her own experience. Obviously, she doesn't know every immigrant in the UK, so I don't know why some people are obsessing about what she said.

Glad your father's feeling better Vod.


Because its very relevant to show how such claims have very little bearing when they are based on hearsay
Its not obsessing but easily showing how people attempt to argue their point off something they cannot validate and off guilt by association.
Its a fallacy argument.
You seem to under some illusion, people cannot be critical or challenge claims.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:00 am

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Oh FFS. It's obvious that Vod was talking about her own experience. Obviously, she doesn't know every immigrant in the UK, so I don't know why some people are obsessing about what she said.

Glad your father's feeling better Vod.


Because its very relevant to show how such claims have very little bearing when they are based on hearsay
Its not obsessing but easily showing how people attempt to argue their point off something they cannot validate and off guilt by association.
Its a fallacy argument.
You seem to under some illusion, people cannot be critical or challenge claims.

Loads of people generalise on here, and there isn't so much obsession about it. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:01 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Because its very relevant to show how such claims have very little bearing when they are based on hearsay
Its not obsessing but easily showing how people attempt to argue their point off something they cannot validate and off guilt by association.
Its a fallacy argument.
You seem to under some illusion, people cannot be critical or challenge claims.

Loads of people generalise on here, and there isn't so much obsession about it. Rolling Eyes


Your view to claim obsession is subjective and a weak argument at best.
Its just a poor defense to try poorly to deflect the view off how that posters view is a fallacy argument.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:05 am

Well she's explained what she meant now, so you can stop obsessing about it - yes?

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:17 am

Raggamuffin wrote:Well she's explained what she meant now, so you can stop obsessing about it - yes?


Again your view is on obsessing.
Mine is on correcting and I dont do as demanded by you Rags
Take it or lump it
Your choice

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I’ve Worked Hard In The NHS For 17 Years But Since Brexit I’ve Felt Like A Second Class Citizen - Page 2 Empty Re: I’ve Worked Hard In The NHS For 17 Years But Since Brexit I’ve Felt Like A Second Class Citizen

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:18 am

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Well she's explained what she meant now, so you can stop obsessing about it - yes?


Again your view is on obsessing.
Mine is on correcting and I dont do as demanded by you Rags
Take it or lump it
Your choice

Carry on obsessing then - it's what you do best.

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I’ve Worked Hard In The NHS For 17 Years But Since Brexit I’ve Felt Like A Second Class Citizen - Page 2 Empty Re: I’ve Worked Hard In The NHS For 17 Years But Since Brexit I’ve Felt Like A Second Class Citizen

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:20 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Again your view is on obsessing.
Mine is on correcting and I dont do as demanded by you Rags
Take it or lump it
Your choice

Carry on obsessing then - it's what you do best.


I always laugh when you make something emotive when its not.
You interject something, just because people challenge something and you like the poster
Its a piss poor deflection Rags

Laughing

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I’ve Worked Hard In The NHS For 17 Years But Since Brexit I’ve Felt Like A Second Class Citizen - Page 2 Empty Re: I’ve Worked Hard In The NHS For 17 Years But Since Brexit I’ve Felt Like A Second Class Citizen

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:16 am

Thorin wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Our church is full of black white congregation - most of them are doctors nurses . None of them feel unwelcome since the Brexit vote . For two nights my dad has been in intensive care he has got septicemia Sad . Most of the nurses are immigrants some are black and white , I never saw any indication that they feel unwelcome nor did i see any patients or other staff members ( British) ever show any sign that they didn't want them there . Everyone was fantastic getting on with their jobs giving my dad the most wonderful professional care ever .

We were basically told he wouldn't make it through but he has he was sat up last night talking to us better than he has in months, he has responded to medication and things are looking brighter . But there is a long road ahead for us .



Saw any indication does not mean, they do not feel unwelcome. Wht is clearly evident by the article, is that some do feel unwelcome. Again the minuscule amount of immigrants you may well know, does not class in anyway how many could feel.

Glad your dad is getting better though, must be horrible.
Septicemia can be easily missed or wrongly diagnosed as something else

Thank you he's a very poorly man and has a long way to go and at 81 with other health issues he is doing very well .

My mums new neighbours ( of six months )are Muslim very lovely people told her that if she needs anything at all to knock on the wall and they will be round to help - I have just been to check on my mum and her neighbour was just going into his house I asked him if i could ask a question and he said 'yeah sure what it is ' I said i was commenting on an article recently about an NHS worker who has been here 17 years and now feels uneasy because of the Brexit vote and does he and his wife feel the same way ?. He said he feels welcome has many friends gets along with everyone and hasn't felt any different and he came here with his parents when he was 6 . I'm not surprised he gets along actually he is one of the most helpful caring guy I know and he looks after my mum which is wonderful - he works for the NHS has his van parked in the drive . Just thought i would ask him and although he feels welcome there may be many who do not - maybe just our part of the country we must be a friendly bunch in the North Wink

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