What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

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What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Syl on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:25 pm

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/baby-kamiyah-kidnapped-hours-after-birth-in-jacksonville-found-alive-18-years-later/386335037

"JACKSONVILLE, Fla.- A baby girl kidnapped from a Jacksonville hospital hours after her birth has been found alive and well, 18 years later, in South Carolina.
The case of missing baby Kamiyah Mobley captivated the city and drew national attention in 1998 after she was kidnapped from University Medical Center, now UF Health-Jacksonville, just eight hours after she was born.
On Friday, the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office arrested the suspect, Gloria Williams, 51, in Walterboro, S.C., about four hours north of Jacksonville. Police say Williams allegedly took Kamiyah and raised her as her own daughter, but under a different name for the past 18 years. Officers are not releasing her name in order to reduce trauma for Kamiyah.
"She was abducted as a newborn and needs time to process this... we want to respect her privacy and we ask that you do too," JSO Sheriff, Mike Williams, said at a press conference Friday." 

The girl is appealing for the woman who kidnapped her, who she has always thought of as her real Mother, to be treated with sympathy. She loves her and has known nothing but love from her.
The woman is facing a life sentence in prison.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:32 pm

The way to look at this is.
How many years lost has both the real mother and daughter lost from having being torn away from each other?
Would the daughter have felt anything for the woman who raised her, if not for her crime of stealing her from her real mother.
She has robbed both the mother and daughter of years they will never have back.

Of course the daughter will love someone who has raised her, but that does not excuse the crime. The fact is this, why could not the accused have adopted a child that needed a home, rather than stealing away somebody else's child who wanted to have and raise a child.

To me there is no defense for her actions

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Syl on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:40 pm

I feel so sorry for everyone involved in this.

The woman who kidnapped the baby did a very evil thing...and lived a lie ever since. Why she did this, whether she was suffering from some sort of mental illness, had just lost a child herself, whatever....is immaterial, she deprived a mother and her family of her baby, and the baby of her rightful mother.

She has loved the child for 18 years, has brought her up to be a respectful loving daughter....so yes, I also have sympathy for her.

Not much in comparison to what the real  mum and dad must have been through though.
And the girl herself is now suffering more than anyone.
Torn between loving the woman who she loves as a mother, and the stranger who is her real mother.

It's a horrible situation for her to be in.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:44 pm

Syl wrote:I feel so sorry for everyone involved in this.

The woman who kidnapped the baby did a very evil thing...and lived a lie ever since. Why she did this, whether she was suffering from some sort of mental illness, had just lost a child herself, whatever....is immaterial, she deprived a mother and her family of her baby, and the baby of her rightful mother.

She has loved the child for 18 years, has brought her up to be a respectful loving daughter....so yes, I also have sympathy for her.

Not much in comparison to what the real  mum and dad must have been through though.
And the girl herself is now suffering more than anyone.
Torn between loving the woman who she loves as a mother, and the stranger who is her real mother.

It's a horrible situation for her to be in.


I dont have any sympathy for the accused Syl
She clearly was able to raise her as you say lovingly for 18 years. So the view that it was a mental illness lacks credibility. Not saying she never had, but clearly if she had wanted a child. She could have adopted and has shattered the lives of the real parents. Who have had to live 18 years not knowing what happened to their daughter. The suspect may well have been a good mother, but that does not excuse her actions or the fact now the daughter is so confused. Who again would not be if she had been allowed to h ave been raised by her own mother. The accused has denied both the parents and the daughter of a life she will now never have known.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Syl on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:50 pm

I'm not saying her actions should be excused...she has brought untold misery on the family of the girl, and the girl herself.

She is probably nothing like the woman she was then, driven by desperation....but I do believe we are all responsible for our own actions, and she now has to face hers.

I don't know what her sentence should be.....she could get life.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:12 pm

1 year for every year she had the child..... with NO parole....

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:15 pm

I'd say at least 10 years...

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Syl on Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:24 pm

Lord Foul wrote:1 year for every year she had the child..... with NO parole....

I thought maybe 18 years...I don't think the law works like that though...an eye for an eye, a year for a year. Cool

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Syl on Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:38 pm

Major wrote:A difficult one in my book.

I am usually severe with criminals.

Maybe the 3 women should discuss the crime together prior to a court sentencing and inform the judge of their collective feelings.

Another point, what will be gained by prison in this case????

Sod it, do't know, fence sitting.

It is a difficult one, not many children are traced after so long.....no doubt her parents thought she was dead.
The girl herself is appealing for the woman who kidnapped her to be treated with lenience...she loves her.

I wonder if public opinion would be on the side of the Mccans if their child was found alive and well one day?

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:26 pm

Life in prison. What she did to that girl's parents, what she put them through for 18 years, had to have been a nightmare.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by veya_victaous on Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:00 pm

Personally I think there has to be some mental illness, like syl said maybe she had just lost a baby or could not have kids for a medical reason and couldn't cope/accept it

I would give leniency because the child asks for it. she needs punishment but people who have done worse have got less than life sentences.
I actually agree with Major and If I where the judge would be guided by the Victims.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by eddie on Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:04 pm

Life. You simply can't go around stealing people and think it's okay.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:35 am

veya_victaous wrote:Personally I think there has to be some mental illness, like syl said maybe she had just lost a baby or could not have kids for a medical reason and couldn't cope/accept it

I would give leniency because the child asks for it. she needs punishment but people who have done worse have got less than life sentences.
I actually agree with Major and If I where the judge would be guided by the Victims.

If she is mentally ill, she can plead it. The state of Florida follows the McNaughton Rule, did she know the nature of her crime and the consequences of it? If she can't show that degree of incapacity she gets life,

There have to be consequences for breaking the law. If she stole this girl, it's the same as she murdered the child...there but for fortune. If you want to ignore the cries of the victims, you might as well ignore all victims.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:08 am

@quill
??? I think you need to read the OP
you are ignoring the Victim.
and we don't know the feeling of parents.

The girl is appealing for the woman who kidnapped her, who she has always thought of as her real Mother, to be treated with sympathy. She loves her and has known nothing but love from her.
The woman is facing a life sentence in prison.

I just think the laws are supposed to make things 'right' not just be revenge.
Will sending the woman that this girl has loved up until now that has clearly always cared for her, fix anything? or will it cause more damage to a young woman with her life turned upside down? it is very complex.


And it is clearly NOT like murder, the mind of the perpetrator is completely different. there is not a disregard for human life or any of the violent elements that required murders to be incarcerated for public safety.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:30 am

veya_victaous wrote:@quill
??? I think you need to read the OP
you are ignoring the Victim.
and we don't know the feeling of parents.

The girl is appealing for the woman who kidnapped her, who she has always thought of as her real Mother, to be treated with sympathy. She loves her and has known nothing but love from her.
The woman is facing a life sentence in prison.

I just think the laws are supposed to make things 'right' not just be revenge.
Will sending the woman that this girl has loved up until now that has clearly always cared for her, fix anything? or will it cause more damage to a young woman with her life turned upside down? it is very complex.
 

And it is clearly NOT like murder, the mind of the perpetrator is completely different. there is not a disregard for human life or any of the violent elements that required murders to be incarcerated for public safety.

The child is not the victim, but the loot. Sorry if that's insensitive, but that's the reality. It would be as if someone robbed a bank and gave half the loot to the poor. If the poor were to step forward and say, don't imprison him...we love him, should the law listen?

Always remember, the next criminal is going to ask for, and expect the same treatment. And 'equal justice under law' demands we give it to him or her. This year's exception is going to be next year's rule. If you want to normalize baby-snatching out of hospital nursery wards, this is a sure way to do it.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:31 am

Disagree the Child is the victim
the parents too, but the Child is the one that was kidnapped was the one that could have been murdered etc

to prove your argument illogical
IF it where a murder and the baby had been killed
would the parents be the victims of murder? a.k.a Murdered

no they wouldn't Wink


And the precedent clearly contains the factor of the victim being raised for 18 years in a loving home and requesting sympathy for the perpetrator... So chances of anyone being able to use it is minuscule.

Plus I am not saying she go free, but an unrepentant drunk driver that wipes out half a family is unlikely to get life. Neutral I am just arguing for less than a life sentence.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:55 am

veya_victaous wrote:Disagree the Child is the victim
the parents too, but the Child is the one that was kidnapped was the one that could have been murdered etc  

to prove your argument illogical
IF it where a murder and the baby had been killed
would the parents be the victims of murder? a.k.a Murdered

no they wouldn't Wink


And the precedent clearly contains the factor of the victim being raised for 18 years in a loving home and requesting sympathy for the perpetrator... So chances of anyone being able to use it is minuscule.

Plus I am not saying she go free, but an unrepentant drunk driver that wipes out half a family is unlikely to get life. Neutral  I am just arguing for less than a life sentence.



Your argument is not comparable

I suggest you look at it more closely

As in this case the parents are victims, as they have had something stolen from them, that they are the legal guardians of, their child

This is not a murder, but an abduction. The two are not comparable in law.

Murder is denying the right to live from the individual

With an abduction the person is generally alive when then raised, its thus theft.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:45 am

you are wrong again read the article if the Parents are the only victims and the child is merely property then why are they not returning her like stolen property.

police said Kamiyah plans on staying in South Carolina. They do not know if she plans to meet her biological family any time soon

Ohh cause the Police acknowledge the Child is the main victim under the law Wink

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Eilzel on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:00 am

veya_victaous wrote:@quill
??? I think you need to read the OP
you are ignoring the Victim.
and we don't know the feeling of parents.

The girl is appealing for the woman who kidnapped her, who she has always thought of as her real Mother, to be treated with sympathy. She loves her and has known nothing but love from her.
The woman is facing a life sentence in prison.

I just think the laws are supposed to make things 'right' not just be revenge.
Will sending the woman that this girl has loved up until now that has clearly always cared for her, fix anything? or will it cause more damage to a young woman with her life turned upside down? it is very complex.
 

And it is clearly NOT like murder, the mind of the perpetrator is completely different. there is not a disregard for human life or any of the violent elements that required murders to be incarcerated for public safety.

The bold part is most sensible thing anyone has said on this imo.

IT is not the same as murder at all. I tell you all right now that the parents will be enormously glad that what happened to their daughter was nothing like murder. They wouldn't even be at this point if that were the case.

Of course the crime was horrible- and the punishment must be severe- but is jailing this woman forever going to fix anything? No. And as said, it will almost certainly cause more heartache for the daughter. While the parents may have suffered the most, I presume they don't know want to cause even more upset for their child, right?

18 years in prison is what I'd say is fair. A year for a year in this case (though tbf the accused wouldn't have much time left once the sentences was done in that case). Though I'm aware the law doesn't work like that.

Going back to what veya said, the part in bold, if the law only seeks revenge, regardless of the child's parents, then in fails in part of what justice is about. If justice doesn't improve a situation then what is it for?

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:13 am

it is understanding the nuisances (of my rants) that I respect you for Eilzel.


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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 am

I mentioned the murder analogy only to point out that in this case, the consequences have been the same for the biological parents.  It's the equivalent of murder because the child has been forever taken from them.  

If you like that, then let's hear no sympathy for any parent who has forever lost a child by a crime.  It's a zero sum game.  When you normalize a wrong, you legitimize the crime.

As Oliver Wendell Holmes said:

O.W. Holmes wrote:"Great cases like hard cases make bad law. For great cases are called great, not by reason of their importance... but because of some accident of immediate overwhelming interest which appeals to the feelings and distorts the judgment."

Don't avoid the question by splitting the loaf in half.  It's either a right or a wrong.  The next case will not be so easy--maybe an abusive ex-husband, who nonetheless kidnaps and raises the daughter for 18-years, who then favors her father--yet you will have set the precedent.  

You have a good case to make some bad law.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:36 am

Eilzel wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:@quill
??? I think you need to read the OP
you are ignoring the Victim.
and we don't know the feeling of parents.



I just think the laws are supposed to make things 'right' not just be revenge.
Will sending the woman that this girl has loved up until now that has clearly always cared for her, fix anything? or will it cause more damage to a young woman with her life turned upside down? it is very complex.
 

And it is clearly NOT like murder, the mind of the perpetrator is completely different. there is not a disregard for human life or any of the violent elements that required murders to be incarcerated for public safety.

The bold part is most sensible thing anyone has said on this imo.

IT is not the same as murder at all. I tell you all right now that the parents will be enormously glad that what happened to their daughter was nothing like murder. They wouldn't even be at this point if that were the case.

Of course the crime was horrible- and the punishment must be severe- but is jailing this woman forever going to fix anything? No. And as said, it will almost certainly cause more heartache for the daughter. While the parents may have suffered the most, I presume they don't know want to cause even more upset for their child, right?

18 years in prison is what I'd say is fair. A year for a year in this case (though tbf the accused wouldn't have much time left once the sentences was done in that case). Though I'm aware the law doesn't work like that.

Going back to what veya said, the part in bold, if the law only seeks revenge, regardless of the child's parents, then in fails in part of what justice is about. If justice doesn't improve a situation then what is it for?

So basically the parents who have spent the last 18 years with sleepless nights, of not be able to watch their child grow, where their child has grown up loving someone else not understanding she was stolen from them have in someway sympathy for the suspect, because their daughter knows no better?

The child knows no different and in time will come to see how she was ripped away from her parents. She is confused at the moment, because she has never known her true parents as that life has been ripped away from her. Its no surprise the child will feel confused, because she has been raised by someone who brought her up, not knowing she robbed the people her parents of this for the last 18 years

This is not revenge, but about people arguing if there should be some leniency to the suspect?
The answer is no, she has robbed 18 years away of a family being together, that they will never get back

She by law could get a life sentence for his crime and its nothing short of what she deserves

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:49 am

Original Quill wrote:I mentioned the murder analogy only to point out that in this case, the consequences have been the same for the biological parents.  It's the equivalent of murder because the child has been forever taken from them.  

If you like that, then let's hear no sympathy for any parent who has forever lost a child by a crime.  It's a zero sum game.  When you normalize a wrong, you legitimize the crime.

As Oliver Wendell Holmes said:

O.W. Holmes wrote:"Great cases like hard cases make bad law. For great cases are called great, not by reason of their importance... but because of some accident of immediate overwhelming interest which appeals to the feelings and distorts the judgment."

Don't avoid the question by splitting the loaf in half.  It's either a right or a wrong.  The next case will not be so easy--maybe an abusive ex-husband, who nonetheless kidnaps and raises the daughter for 18-years, who then favors her father--yet you will have set the precedent.  

You have a good case to make some bad law.

what I bolded is almost never a true statement.

And he'd get, as Les suggest, 18 years (I'd go 9 to 18 years depending on the combined feelings of Child and parents)
so lets not strawman the debate into suggesting there is only LIFE or nothing Wink

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Eilzel on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:31 am

veya_victaous wrote:it is understanding the nuisances (of my rants) that I respect you for Eilzel.


lol!

^^^Quill. Life isn't as simple as 'it's either right or wrong'. You should know that better than anyone else (though being a lawyer I appreciate there is a brutual robotocism involved sometimes...).

Yes what she did was wrong. Unforgivable. Warrants severe punishment. We all agree on that.

But then there is an important HUMAN element. What damage would come from throwing a life sentence at this woman? That needs to be thought about before ploughing on with carrying out revenge.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:34 am

Eilzel wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:it is understanding the nuisances (of my rants) that I respect you for Eilzel.


lol!

^^^Quill. Life isn't as simple as 'it's either right or wrong'. You should know that better than anyone else (though being a lawyer I appreciate there is a brutual robotocism involved sometimes...).

Yes what she did was wrong. Unforgivable. Warrants severe punishment. We all agree on that.

But then there is an important HUMAN element. What damage would come from throwing a life sentence at this woman? That needs to be thought about before ploughing on with carrying out revenge.


What damage would come?
That is like saying, "well he was a former camp commander at Auschwitz, but he then looked after an orphanage and was wonderful to children."

You are trying to be lenient by ignoring the crime committed, based solely off the daughters mixed reactions to finding out. She abducted a baby and denied the legal guardians the parents of raising her, which they will never ever get back. This is not revenge, but people wrongly think she should receive a lesser senescent, when she should very well get life and its nothing short of what she derserves

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Eilzel on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:36 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:@quill
??? I think you need to read the OP
you are ignoring the Victim.
and we don't know the feeling of parents.



I just think the laws are supposed to make things 'right' not just be revenge.
Will sending the woman that this girl has loved up until now that has clearly always cared for her, fix anything? or will it cause more damage to a young woman with her life turned upside down? it is very complex.
 

And it is clearly NOT like murder, the mind of the perpetrator is completely different. there is not a disregard for human life or any of the violent elements that required murders to be incarcerated for public safety.

The bold part is most sensible thing anyone has said on this imo.

IT is not the same as murder at all. I tell you all right now that the parents will be enormously glad that what happened to their daughter was nothing like murder. They wouldn't even be at this point if that were the case.

Of course the crime was horrible- and the punishment must be severe- but is jailing this woman forever going to fix anything? No. And as said, it will almost certainly cause more heartache for the daughter. While the parents may have suffered the most, I presume they don't know want to cause even more upset for their child, right?

18 years in prison is what I'd say is fair. A year for a year in this case (though tbf the accused wouldn't have much time left once the sentences was done in that case). Though I'm aware the law doesn't work like that.

Going back to what veya said, the part in bold, if the law only seeks revenge, regardless of the child's parents, then in fails in part of what justice is about. If justice doesn't improve a situation then what is it for?

So basically the parents who have spent the last 18 years with sleepless nights, of not be able to watch their child grow, where their child has grown up loving someone else not understanding she was stolen from them have in someway sympathy for the suspect, because their daughter knows no better?

The child knows no different and in time will come to see how she was ripped away from her parents. She is confused at the moment, because she has never known her true parents as that life has been ripped away from her. Its no surprise the child will feel confused, because she has been raised by someone who brought her up, not knowing she robbed the people her parents of this for the last 18 years

This is not revenge, but about people arguing if there should be some leniency to the suspect?
The answer is no, she has robbed 18 years away of a family being together, that they will never get back

She by law could get a life sentence for his crime and its nothing short of what she deserves

OK. So moving forward with that. What will it achieve? Will the girl feel better? Will the parents really feel better knowing this woman who raised their child will die old and frail in some horrid prison? What is the point?

Is it possible that this extreme outcome could cause further psychological trauma for the girl? If so, what would you do about that?

An extremely hard prison sentence sends the right message and appeals to the daughter (who at 18 I'm pretty sure will understand the severity of her kidnapper's actions but also have a pretty solid emotional connection to her as well).

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:38 am

in Thorin's opinion that is very black and white Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

...I think I will just leave it to Eilzel silent

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:41 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So basically the parents who have spent the last 18 years with sleepless nights, of not be able to watch their child grow, where their child has grown up loving someone else not understanding she was stolen from them have in someway sympathy for the suspect, because their daughter knows no better?

The child knows no different and in time will come to see how she was ripped away from her parents. She is confused at the moment, because she has never known her true parents as that life has been ripped away from her. Its no surprise the child will feel confused, because she has been raised by someone who brought her up, not knowing she robbed the people her parents of this for the last 18 years

This is not revenge, but about people arguing if there should be some leniency to the suspect?
The answer is no, she has robbed 18 years away of a family being together, that they will never get back

She by law could get a life sentence for his crime and its nothing short of what she deserves

OK. So moving forward with that. What will it achieve? Will the girl feel better? Will the parents really feel better knowing this woman who raised their child will die old and frail in some horrid prison? What is the point?

Is it possible that this extreme outcome could cause further psychological trauma for the girl? If so, what would you do about that?

An extremely hard prison sentence sends the right message and appeals to the daughter (who at 18 I'm pretty sure will understand the severity of her kidnapper's actions but also have a pretty solid emotional connection to her as well).

I am sure the parents will feel much safer and be able to build a relationship with their child, now that she is behind bars, where she should be. Have you thought if on the outside how difficult it would be for the parents to start over with their child, with this mother in the way all the time? How will the parents feel comfortable with their daughter continuing the relationship with the person who abducted her?

There is a possibility of many things, but what you are forgetting is this is because she abducted the child. So she is responsible for now the mess that it has turned out into being, because she lied not only to the daughter but the world when she abducted the child. How are the parents going to feel they can rebuild a life with their daughter, constantly now worried they will struggle to win her love. By placing the right sentence will show to the daughter that the woman who raise did wrong and suffers the consequences for what she has done.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:48 am

This just to show badly the parents suffer



Effects On The Victims

The Left-Behind Family

The first thing that the left-behind family experiences is shock and disbelief. They cannot believe that their loved one has been taken away by a fellow family member. Panic as to the whereabouts of the child and how to get proper assistance will cause both the left-behind parent and any left-behind siblings to experience serious emotional distress.

The left-behind parent often has an incredibly difficult time maintaining work commitments while searching for their child. Feelings of anger, resentment, fear, anxiety, despair, loneliness, and guilt are common emotions. Most left-behind parents also suffer from disturbances in sleep patterns, loss of appetite, and severe depression. The emotional turmoil might also manifest in physical symptoms such as re-occurring headaches and nausea. And in some situations, the parent may turn to drugs or alcohol to handle the pain.

Any left-behind siblings also experience the pain of the loss of their brother/sister. Like the left-behind parents, the siblings also experience a variety of emotions and physical ailments. Since their parent is so focused on the return of the kidnapped child, the other children may feel neglected and develop hostile feelings towards the kidnapped child for taking all of the attention



Do you see how much damage this one action can do to families Eilzel?
Hence why I have zero sympathy for the accused

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Eilzel on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:49 am

Thorin, let me ask you something- do you believe people can change and have regrets? Do you think there wasn't a single moment where this woman thought what she did was wrong? Admittedly, she never got to the point of admitting her crime, but who knows what she may have felt over the last 18 years.

Now if it did turn out she said she had no regrets then I'd be less lenient- but she is no danger now, the girl is a young adult.

There is no requirement for a life sentence, 18 or even 10 years (as well as commonsense) will tell the girl her abducter was wrong.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:55 am

Eilzel wrote:Thorin, let me ask you something- do you believe people can change and have regrets? Do you think there wasn't a single moment where this woman thought what she did was wrong? Admittedly, she never got to the point of admitting her crime, but who knows what she may have felt over the last 18 years.

Now if it did turn out she said she had no regrets then I'd be less lenient- but she is no danger now, the girl is a young adult.

There is no requirement for a life sentence, 18 or even 10 years (as well as commonsense) will tell the girl her abducter was wrong.

Yes i do believe people can change and have regrets, but that does not mean they should not be judged and sentenced according to the crimes. There has been as stated killers who have regretted what they have done. that does not mean a sentence should not fit the crime

No I don't think there was a single moment she believed she did wrong. If she had, she would have given herself up and she had 18 years to do this and never did. If she had spared a thought for the wrong she had done, she would have known that she was doing wrong by the parents and the child and given herself up
So its irrelevant what she felt if she never acted on doing anything.

There is a requirement for a life sentence and she deserves to have this.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Eilzel on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:12 am

Life in prison might have been a deterrent in coming forward, actually.

And there are killers who don't even receive life in prison- for a plethora of reasons.

Are we honestly saying this woman is worse than some killers?

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:23 am

Eilzel wrote:Life in prison might have been a deterrent in coming forward, actually.

And there are killers who don't even receive life in prison- for a plethora of reasons.

Are we honestly saying this woman is worse than some killers?

So she has no regrets, because a person with regrets faces the consequences of their actions

Your next part is misdirection, as we are talking about this case and abductions

I think all murderers should be given life

So who is saying she is worse than killers, if the sentence can be a life sentence then she should receive that.

Again this wil be based on the crime and she has robbed a family and their daughter of 18 years they will never get back, plus the family have lived with the pain for 18 years

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Eilzel on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:33 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Life in prison might have been a deterrent in coming forward, actually.

And there are killers who don't even receive life in prison- for a plethora of reasons.

Are we honestly saying this woman is worse than some killers?

So she has no regrets, because a person with regrets faces the consequences of their actions

Your next part is misdirection, as we are talking about this case and abductions

I think all murderers should be given life

So who is saying she is worse than killers, if the sentence can be a life sentence then she should receive that.

Again this wil be based on the crime and she has robbed a family and their daughter of 18 years they will never get back, plus the family have lived with the pain for 18 years

It's not misdirection. In my opinion though most murderers should get life, I think there are exceptions. But looks like we'll have to agree to disagree here.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:36 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So she has no regrets, because a person with regrets faces the consequences of their actions

Your next part is misdirection, as we are talking about this case and abductions

I think all murderers should be given life

So who is saying she is worse than killers, if the sentence can be a life sentence then she should receive that.

Again this wil be based on the crime and she has robbed a family and their daughter of 18 years they will never get back, plus the family have lived with the pain for 18 years

It's not misdirection. In my opinion though most murderers should get life, I think there are exceptions. But looks like we'll have to agree to disagree here.

No problem mate, but you do realise that a sentence of life is anywhere between 15-25 years in the US?

She deserves at least the minimum

I mean think about this, he parents have never gotten to see when their baby first smiled, crawled, walked, talked etc, every single birthday, every single emotion shared together. That they will now never have.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Eilzel on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:38 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So she has no regrets, because a person with regrets faces the consequences of their actions

Your next part is misdirection, as we are talking about this case and abductions

I think all murderers should be given life

So who is saying she is worse than killers, if the sentence can be a life sentence then she should receive that.

Again this wil be based on the crime and she has robbed a family and their daughter of 18 years they will never get back, plus the family have lived with the pain for 18 years

It's not misdirection. In my opinion though most murderers should get life, I think there are exceptions. But looks like we'll have to agree to disagree here.

No problem mate, but you do realise that a sentence of life is anywhere between 15-25 years in the US?

She deserves at least the minimum

I mean think about this, he parents have never gotten to see when their baby first smiled, crawled, walked, talked etc, every single birthday, every single emotion shared together. That they will now never have.

The technicality of the word 'life' in law is ridiculous. In Britain isn't it 15 years too? Or less?

Obviously I would favour a life sentence of somewhere between those official numbers. It is a 'life means life' sentence I stand opposed to in this case (though there are occasions I think it calls for it- most murders for instance).

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:47 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

No problem mate, but you do realise that a sentence of life is anywhere between 15-25 years in the US?

She deserves at least the minimum

I mean think about this, he parents have never gotten to see when their baby first smiled, crawled, walked, talked etc, every single birthday, every single emotion shared together. That they will now never have.

The technicality of the word 'life' in law is ridiculous. In Britain isn't it 15 years too? Or less?

Obviously I would favour a life sentence of somewhere between those official numbers. It is a 'life means life' sentence I stand opposed to in this case (though there are occasions I think it calls for it- most murders for instance).


I agree the terminology of using the word life is absurd
They should do away with the terminology and have fixed termsn]
IE mass murder 75 years
First degree murder 25-50 years
second degree murder 10-25 years etc

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by nicko on Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:32 am

Some crimes, especially against children,[rape, murder] for instance,
death penalty.
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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:39 pm

veya_victaous wrote:it is understanding the nuisances (of my rants) that I respect you for Eilzel.


Actually, the first highlighted rant was mine not yours. Laughing and I should have said "The woman is facing a possible life sentence in prison" her sentence has not been decided yet.
Veya, I agree with the points you have made  throughout this thread. There are many 'victims' here, but the girl will be the one who suffers more now, her whole identity has been shattered, and the 'mother' she loves and respects will no longer be around.
I don't think anyone believes the woman who stole the baby should not face a severe punishment, she commited a horrible crime, but surely leniency should be shown to her, and surely her state of mind at the time should be taken into consideration...I doubt she stole a baby purely for evil and selfish motives.

The biological parents accepted a huge pay out after their baby daughter was taken, It shouldn't....but I don't know whether that will make any difference to the outcome of the trial.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:32 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Original Quill wrote:I mentioned the murder analogy only to point out that in this case, the consequences have been the same for the biological parents.  It's the equivalent of murder because the child has been forever taken from them.  

If you like that, then let's hear no sympathy for any parent who has forever lost a child by a crime.  It's a zero sum game.  When you normalize a wrong, you legitimize the crime.

As Oliver Wendell Holmes said:



Don't avoid the question by splitting the loaf in half.  It's either a right or a wrong.  The next case will not be so easy--maybe an abusive ex-husband, who nonetheless kidnaps and raises the daughter for 18-years, who then favors her father--yet you will have set the precedent.  

You have a good case to make some bad law.

what I bolded is almost never a true statement.

Well then let's do away with all criminal law.  If there's no right or wrong, we are the criminals for deigning to punish those whom we cannot say if they did right or wrong.  Lock ourselves up for the crime of being so presumptuous.  For certainly, you have just declared the one truth making that the crime.

veya wrote:And he'd get, as Les suggest, 18 years (I'd go 9 to 18 years depending on the combined feelings of Child and parents)
so lets not strawman the debate into suggesting there is only LIFE or nothing Wink

The 18-years is just a number pulled out of the hat.  It is a numerical count.  The 18-years taken away from the biological parents were the formative years, the bonding years, the years that made the young woman the child of someone, and the illegal parents her teachers.  Give those years back, and you might have something.

This is why I liken this to an act of murder.  What was taken from the biological parents has nothing to do with a count of 18-year.  A mere, hollow 18-years does not begin to compensate for what was taken from the biological parents by this crime.  What was actually taken from the biological parents was a unique experience of being parents, which can never be duplicated.  It was as final as if the kidnapper murdered the child.  That is the significance of that equivalency of this crime to murder.  

Not only that, but you add insult to injury by allowing the kidnapper to keep the benefits of her crime.  Did you know the child plans to head back to South Carolina, not stay in Florida, the state where she might have even a shredded relationship with her victim-parents?  If the kidnapper were a bank-robber, would she be allowed to keep her proceeds?  Yet every day the child visits her kidnapper-mom in prison, she gets to spend a little bit of the treasure stolen in this crime.

And please don't insult us with the answer that the the victim-parents will have the chance to have a relationship in the future.  She doesn't give a crap about her victim-parents...that was what was stolen, doh!  If the girl gets over the animosity toward those to tore up her life, you will be offering cheap, second-hand goods.  She's not the person they raised.  What was stolen by this kidnapping was the very opportunity to have such a meaningful life.  I anticipate and mention this argument because it smacks of the same second-hand goods tender that the 18-year exchange offers.


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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:52 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So basically the parents who have spent the last 18 years with sleepless nights, of not be able to watch their child grow, where their child has grown up loving someone else not understanding she was stolen from them have in someway sympathy for the suspect, because their daughter knows no better?

The child knows no different and in time will come to see how she was ripped away from her parents. She is confused at the moment, because she has never known her true parents as that life has been ripped away from her. Its no surprise the child will feel confused, because she has been raised by someone who brought her up, not knowing she robbed the people her parents of this for the last 18 years

This is not revenge, but about people arguing if there should be some leniency to the suspect?
The answer is no, she has robbed 18 years away of a family being together, that they will never get back

She by law could get a life sentence for his crime and its nothing short of what she deserves

OK. So moving forward with that. What will it achieve? Will the girl feel better? Will the parents really feel better knowing this woman who raised their child will die old and frail in some horrid prison? What is the point?

Don't you see, Les, all you are doing is pointing out the obvious: the kidnapping mom murdered the child for all intents and purposes.  What is the point, indeed...the child is already dead to the victim-parents?  That life can never come back.  It can never be undone.  You say a harsher sentence is futile; I think it's essential.  If we all adopted the same lax standard, we would turn criminal law into profitable behavior, and honest behavior into a fool's game.

Les wrote:Is it possible that this extreme outcome could cause further psychological trauma for the girl? If so, what would you do about that?

The girl is 18.  It's a done deal.  There is nothing anyone can do...she's an adult, not someone in a conservatorship.  She can do what she wants.  And the predictable outcome is she will forever hate her biological parents merely for being there, and causing this upheaval in her life, and still direct her love to the criminals.

Les wrote:An extremely hard prison sentence sends the right message and appeals to the daughter (who at 18 I'm pretty sure will understand the severity of her kidnapper's actions but also have a pretty solid emotional connection to her as well).

What do you mean by "extremely hard prison sentence"?  No TV?  We don't have hard labor in the US anymore.  She'll live the same life in prison as outside, save it will be green walls and stainless steel surfaces...and no trips to Paris or Rio.  

The kidnapper mom will get to keep the very proceeds that she stole...once a week the child will visit her kidnapper-mom in prison, and the two of them will be able to share cookies and milk and the very life-long bond that was stolen from the victim parents.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:27 pm

Syl wrote:I don't think anyone believes the woman who stole the baby should not face a severe punishment, she commited a horrible crime, but surely leniency should be shown to her, and surely her state of mind at the time should be taken into consideration...I doubt she stole a baby purely for evil and selfish motives.

Every criminal deserves to have his state of mind "taken into consideration..."  But not just our speculation as to that state of mind.  That's the problem. We have a tendency to pay no heed to the real state of mind, and substitute our own script in its place. Write this script, why don't you: the mother-kidnapper had no concern for the lives she was ruining. She was selfish, and has no respect for real motherhood. I have no doubt if left to her own devices she would do it again.

Here is a woman who literally murdered the possibility of a mother-child relationship with her biological mother, and you find room for leniency?  My god woman, do you hate mothers?

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:26 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:I don't think anyone believes the woman who stole the baby should not face a severe punishment, she commited a horrible crime, but surely leniency should be shown to her, and surely her state of mind at the time should be taken into consideration...I doubt she stole a baby purely for evil and selfish motives.

Every criminal deserves to have his state of mind "taken into consideration..."  But not just our speculation as to that state of mind.  That's the problem.  We have a tendency to pay no heed to the real state of mind, and substitute our own script in its place.  Write this script, why don't you: the mother-kidnapper had no concern for the lives she was ruining.  She was selfish, and has no respect for real motherhood.  I have no doubt if left to her own devices she would do it again.

Here is a woman who literally murdered the possibility of a mother-child relationship with her biological mother, and you find room for leniency?  My god woman, do you hate mothers?

What a truly stupid statement. Rolling Eyes
You keep using the word 'murder'...NO murder has been committed. She kidnapped the baby and cared for her.....a truly horrible and selfish crime as I have said throughout, and at least I am sticking to the facts.

Tracing her medical records at the time would help, though if she was not treated for depression, miscarriage, etc I doubt they would be much help.

You also say "I have no doubt if left to her own devices she would do it again" !!
Seems to me YOU are writing your own script here.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:05 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Every criminal deserves to have his state of mind "taken into consideration..."  But not just our speculation as to that state of mind.  That's the problem.  We have a tendency to pay no heed to the real state of mind, and substitute our own script in its place.  Write this script, why don't you: the mother-kidnapper had no concern for the lives she was ruining.  She was selfish, and has no respect for real motherhood.  I have no doubt if left to her own devices she would do it again.

Here is a woman who literally murdered the possibility of a mother-child relationship with her biological mother, and you find room for leniency?  My god woman, do you hate mothers?

What a truly stupid statement. Rolling Eyes
You keep using the word 'murder'...NO murder has been committed. She kidnapped the baby and cared for her.....a truly horrible and selfish crime as I have said throughout, and at least I am sticking to the facts.

I use the term MURDER to help stupid people understand the gravity of what she did.  I think I have made that clear in three posts, but stupid is as stupid does!

Syl wrote:Tracing her medical records at the time would help, though if she was not treated for depression, miscarriage, etc I doubt they would be much help.

When have you ever given another criminal such a 'wild goose chase'?  Admit it...you wouldn't give any consideration if it were some misogynistic wife-beater or rapist.  Shall I remind you of what you said on the Sky thread, above:

Syl wrote:Any man who sexually assaults any woman is to blame 100%, there are no grey areas...she is innocent, he is guilty, end of.

What happened to all that compassion for the guilty?  What about all that touchy-feely stuff about 'state of mind'? But the evil misogynist isn't a script that tickles your fancy.  This female kidnapper, who ruined far more than one life, is one of those scripts that touches you, and you're out to make bad law for all, out of your tearjerker imagination.  Selfish!

Syl wrote:You also say "I have no doubt if left to her own devices she would do it again" !!
Seems to me YOU are writing your own script here.

But at least that's a legitimate question that a court and jury have to ask.  The purposes of punishment are 1) retribution; 2) removal; and 3) rehabilitation.  Two of the three ask, is this person safe to walk among us(?).  In this case, as with many, one must ask, would she do the same thing under similar circumstances(?).  There is no doubt she would.  Ask the related questions: 1) is she sorry?; 2) does she show any remorse?; has she done anything to mitigate the damages of her kidnapping?  In each case, she could care less.  Everyone should step back and contemplate the next victim...cause it's gonna happen again, for sure.

You act like you have just seen the movie, Bonnie and Clyde, and you think Bonnie looked cute in her little blond, bob haircut...she should be pardoned.  You take serious things far to frivolously.


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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:27 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

What a truly stupid statement. Rolling Eyes
You keep using the word 'murder'...NO murder has been committed. She kidnapped the baby and cared for her.....a truly horrible and selfish crime as I have said throughout, and at least I am sticking to the facts.

I use the term MURDER to help stupid people understand the gravity of what she did.  I think I have made that clear in three posts, but stupid is as stupid does!

Syl wrote:Tracing her medical records at the time would help, though if she was not treated for depression, miscarriage, etc I doubt they would be much help.

When have you ever given another criminal such a 'wild goose chase'?  Admit it...you wouldn't give any consideration if it were some misogynistic wife-beater.  But it isn't...it's one of those scripts that touches you, and you're out to make bad law for all, out of your tearjerker imagination.  Selfish!

Syl wrote:You also say "I have no doubt if left to her own devices she would do it again" !!
Seems to me YOU are writing your own script here.

But at least that's a legitimate question that a court and jury have to ask.  The purposes of punishment are 1) retribution; 2) removal; and 3) rehabilitation.  Two of the three ask, is this person safe to walk among us(?).  In this case, as with many, one must ask, would she do the same thing under similar circumstances(?).  There is no doubt she would.  Ask the related questions: 1) is she sorry?; 2) does she show any remorse?; has she done anything to mitigate the damages of her kidnapping?  In each case, she could care less.  Everyone should step back and contemplate the next victim...cause it's gonna happen again, for sure.

You act like you have just seen the movie, Bonnie and Clyde, and you think Bonnie looked cute in her little blond, bob haircut...she should be pardoned.  You take serious things far to frivolously.

1...Well use the correct term, you say you are a lawyer, do you enter court and use the right terms or the wrong terms??....I suspect if you called a kidnap a murder you would be laughed out of court.
Stupid IS as stupid does....maybe you should change your user name to Origional GUMP Razz

2..."Wild goose chase"??..... so are you saying her state of mind at the time of the crime has no bearing on her actions, and this would not be taken into consideration in a court of law?...I think you are wrong.

3...waffle waffle waffle......you are not a psychiatrist, leave that to the experts. Rolling Eyes

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

What a truly stupid statement. Rolling Eyes
You keep using the word 'murder'...NO murder has been committed. She kidnapped the baby and cared for her.....a truly horrible and selfish crime as I have said throughout, and at least I am sticking to the facts.

I use the term MURDER to help stupid people understand the gravity of what she did.  I think I have made that clear in three posts, but stupid is as stupid does!

Syl wrote:Tracing her medical records at the time would help, though if she was not treated for depression, miscarriage, etc I doubt they would be much help.

When have you ever given another criminal such a 'wild goose chase'?  Admit it...you wouldn't give any consideration if it were some misogynistic wife-beater or rapist.  Shall I remind you of what you said on the Sky thread, above:

Syl wrote:Any man who sexually assaults any woman is to blame 100%, there are no grey areas...she is innocent, he is guilty, end of.

What happened to all that compassion for the guilty?  What about all that touchy-feely stuff about 'state of mind'?  But the evil misogynist isn't a script that tickles your fancy.  This female kidnapper, who ruined far more than one life, is one of those scripts that touches you, and you're out to make bad law for all, out of your tearjerker imagination.  Selfish!

Syl wrote:You also say "I have no doubt if left to her own devices she would do it again" !!
Seems to me YOU are writing your own script here.

But at least that's a legitimate question that a court and jury have to ask.  The purposes of punishment are 1) retribution; 2) removal; and 3) rehabilitation.  Two of the three ask, is this person safe to walk among us(?).  In this case, as with many, one must ask, would she do the same thing under similar circumstances(?).  There is no doubt she would.  Ask the related questions: 1) is she sorry?; 2) does she show any remorse?; has she done anything to mitigate the damages of her kidnapping?  In each case, she could care less.  Everyone should step back and contemplate the next victim...cause it's gonna happen again, for sure.

You act like you have just seen the movie, Bonnie and Clyde, and you think Bonnie looked cute in her little blond, bob haircut...she should be pardoned.  You take serious things far to frivolously.


I understand your reasoning but you are inadvertently devaluing the gravity of a murder.
They are not comparable. I completely grasp your points as I made earlier that so much has been lost with both child and parents never experiencing so many shared emotions together. The first smile, the first words,, the first time she would have crawled and walked. The first day of school, every single birthday and Christmas. These can never be given back and are lost forever. I also get your point that the parents may never get a proper relationship with the daughter as  she has been conditioned to love someone else, but its never going to be comparable to life being extinguished. They were the legal guardians and have had to endure the worst torment for so many years, but she is alive and there is also every chance they can build a loving relationship together.

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:56 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I use the term MURDER to help stupid people understand the gravity of what she did.  I think I have made that clear in three posts, but stupid is as stupid does!



When have you ever given another criminal such a 'wild goose chase'?  Admit it...you wouldn't give any consideration if it were some misogynistic wife-beater.  But it isn't...it's one of those scripts that touches you, and you're out to make bad law for all, out of your tearjerker imagination.  Selfish!



But at least that's a legitimate question that a court and jury have to ask.  The purposes of punishment are 1) retribution; 2) removal; and 3) rehabilitation.  Two of the three ask, is this person safe to walk among us(?).  In this case, as with many, one must ask, would she do the same thing under similar circumstances(?).  There is no doubt she would.  Ask the related questions: 1) is she sorry?; 2) does she show any remorse?; has she done anything to mitigate the damages of her kidnapping?  In each case, she could care less.  Everyone should step back and contemplate the next victim...cause it's gonna happen again, for sure.

You act like you have just seen the movie, Bonnie and Clyde, and you think Bonnie looked cute in her little blond, bob haircut...she should be pardoned.  You take serious things far to frivolously.

1...Well use the correct term, you say you are a lawyer, do you enter court and use the right terms or the wrong terms??....I suspect if you called a kidnap a murder you would be laughed out of court.


I absolutely would use it in my opening statement, in order to help the jury to understand that this crime is far more evil than the law allows compensation for. Any sentence could never compensate for leaving such a hole in someone's life.

Syl wrote:2..."Wild goose chase"??..... so are you saying her state of mind at the time of the crime has no bearing on her actions, and this would not be taken into consideration in a court of law?...I think you are wrong.

Would you give the same consideration for the misogynistic rapist or wife-beater? Or is the entire criminal justice all about you, and the scripts that your mind produces? What about 'equal justice under law'? Or is that just a nuisance you have to acknowledge, and then dismiss.

Syl wrote:3...waffle waffle waffle......you are not a psychiatrist, leave that to the experts. Rolling Eyes

Ahhh...but I am an expert. I am a trial lawyer. I have been in thousands of courtrooms, and argued before hundreds of juries. I know how they think. I know all about scripts and stereotypes ..for confirmation, read: Dewey, John, How We Think (1901). As one commentator has said:

Media has power to create in our minds certain, not necessarily truthful, images of situations, individuals or groups. Created images of individuals or groups of people are called stereotypes. Re-presentations of actions or situations are referred to as scripts. These images influence our vision and expectations of others, and the way we are viewed and expected to behave by others.

Stereotyping is a process of categorizing people basing on appearance, gender, nationality, occupation, or place of living and evaluating those categories. Some easily grasped features presumed to belong to a group are claimed to always belong to every member of the group.
http://zabulonchik.blogspot.com/2012/08/stereotyping-and-scripts.html?view=magazine

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Re: What sentence should this kidnapper recieve?

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:49 pm

@quill
I would get rid of the current legal system in a heart beat its shit

Precedence just creates jobs for lawyers
the complexity of the written statement of Law just makes jobs for lawyers
much like the complex tax code it is all a scam creating an industry where there need not be one

It a shitty inefficient system that gets it wrong as often as it gets it right. the fact they we keep adding another layer of crap instead of pruning it back or starting again, benefits no one but lawyers. It is designed to make it easy to put the poor man in jail and the rich to pay for a loophole.

AND there is very rarely an absolute right or wrong. which is why there is so much injustice in the current system. If it where that simple than we can replace it all with a binary computer it will be far more efficient and cost effective and would achieve the same poor out comes as the current system

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