Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:11 am

Not quite sure how a pregnant woman being treated in a maternity unit will cause patients in the rest of the hospital to end up languishing on trolleys, but then languishig on trolleys for hours waiting for a bed is far from a new thing.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:29 am

Major wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:Not quite sure how a pregnant woman being treated in a maternity unit will cause patients in the rest of the hospital to end up languishing on trolleys, but then languishig on trolleys for hours waiting for a bed is far from a new thing.

Doctors, nurses and staff are in short supply as it is so we need them for our own people, NOT scroungers robbing our system/money.

I am wondering, If they show a passport which does not entitle them to treatment, will they really be told to go away.

I'm not actually sure that it's legal for them to be turned away completely.

Maternity units can close to new admissions if they are full and the women sent elsewhere but as for refusing to treat them full stop, I don't think they can do that.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:08 pm

Do NHS maternity services have the discretion to refuse to provide maternity care?

No. All maternity care is classed as ‘immediately necessary treatment’ and must not be refused for any reason. Maternity care includes all antenatal, birth and post-natal care.
Even if you are unable to pay for services at the time of treatment, you must receive maternity care. You should ask to speak to the Overseas Visitors Manager at the hospital to explain your circumstances and discuss your options (e.g. whether you might be exempt or to agree a repayment plan) – see below.

If you are refused maternity care you should contact the Patient Advice and Liaison Service at your hospital, Healthwatch or seek further advice from the organisations listed below. You can make a complaint to the NHS, see below.

Where can I find the Government guidance on access to maternity care?

Department of Health guidance for England is contained in ‘Guidance on implementing the overseas visitor hospital charging regulations’. Chapter 8 of the Guidance says:

‘Due to the severe health risks associated with conditions such as eclampsia and pre-eclampsia, and in order to protect the lives of both mother and unborn baby, all maternity services, including routine antenatal treatment, must be treated as being immediately necessary. No woman must ever be denied, or have delayed, maternity services due to charging issues. Although she must be informed if charges apply to her treatment, in doing so she should not be discouraged from receiving the remainder of her maternity treatment. Overseas Visitor Managers (OVMs) and clinicians should be especially careful to inform pregnant patients that further maternity healthcare will not be withheld, regardless of their ability to pay.’

The latest version was updated in February 2016 and is available at: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/496951/Overseas_visitor_hospital_charging_accs.pdf

I am not ‘ordinarily resident’ or covered by an EHIC or exemption. Can I obtain NHS maternity care?

If you are not ‘ordinarily resident’ in the UK or covered by an exception to the rules (e.g. you are in the UK for a period of less than 6 months or have overstayed your visa), you may be asked for pay for maternity care. Maternity care is classed as ‘immediately necessary treatment’ and cannot be refused for any reason. If you cannot pay, you must not be refused care.

https://www.maternityaction.org.uk/advice-2/mums-dads-scenarios/3-women-from-abroad/entitlement-to-free-nhs-maternity-care-for-women-from-abroad/
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:26 pm

Basically Major, what this means is that no pregnant woman no matter where she is from will be denied maternity care.

This showing a passport thing is really only about identifying those women who should be paying for their treatment but it will not prevent those women from being treated.

All a bit of a pointless exercise really.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:52 pm

Major wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:Not quite sure how a pregnant woman being treated in a maternity unit will cause patients in the rest of the hospital to end up languishing on trolleys, but then languishig on trolleys for hours waiting for a bed is far from a new thing.

Doctors, nurses and staff are in short supply as it is so we need them for our own people, NOT scroungers robbing our system/money.

I am wondering, If they show a passport which does not entitle them to treatment, will they really be told to go away.

Now we know where scrooge went. Probably beats his 88-year old mum, who's in a wheelchair, too.

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Syl on Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:09 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:Basically Major, what this means is that no pregnant woman no matter where she is from will be denied maternity care.

This showing a passport thing is really only about identifying those women who should be paying for their treatment but it will not prevent those women from being treated.

All a bit of a pointless exercise really.

No pregnant women should be refused treatment...nor should an ill person be turned away, and in an ideal world they never would be.
Facts are that many people who were bred and born here desperately need treatment and care but don't get in now on the NHS through lack of funding.

I think any system that can be brought in to determine who is entitled to free treatment and who should be contributing financially towards their treatment is helpful.

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:48 pm

Syl wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:Basically Major, what this means is that no pregnant woman no matter where she is from will be denied maternity care.

This showing a passport thing is really only about identifying those women who should be paying for their treatment but it will not prevent those women from being treated.

All a bit of a pointless exercise really.

No pregnant women should be refused treatment...nor should an ill person be turned away, and in an ideal world they never would be.
Facts are that many people who were bred and born here desperately need treatment and care but don't get in now on the NHS through lack of funding.

I think any system that can be brought in to determine who is entitled to free treatment and who should be contributing financially towards their treatment is helpful.

Not everyone who is a UK citizen has a passport so how is the policy to produce a passport going to affect those people?

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:49 pm

It still won't change the fact that pregnant women whoever they are or wherever they are from will get free maternity care regardless of their ability to pay though.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Syl on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:04 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Syl wrote:

No pregnant women should be refused treatment...nor should an ill person be turned away, and in an ideal world they never would be.
Facts are that many people who were bred and born here desperately need treatment and care but don't get in now on the NHS through lack of funding.

I think any system that can be brought in to determine who is entitled to free treatment and who should be contributing financially towards their treatment is helpful.

Not everyone who is a UK citizen has a passport so how is the policy to produce a passport going to affect those people?


Driving licence, utility bill, NHS or NI number....there is always something a UK citizen can show to prove they are entitled.


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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:10 pm

Syl wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Not everyone who is a UK citizen has a passport so how is the policy to produce a passport going to affect those people?


Driving licence, utility bill, NHS or NI number....there is always something a UK citizen can show to prove they are entitled.


It still won't change anything. These women will still be able to access NHS maternity care based simply on the fact they are pregnant.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Syl on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:11 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Syl wrote:

Driving licence, utility bill, NHS or NI number....there is always something a UK citizen can show to prove they are entitled.


It still won't change anything.  These women will still be able to access NHS maternity care based simply on the fact they are pregnant.

I haven't said they should not.....only that some system should be brought in to claw some of the money spent on them back IF they are not entitled to free NHS care.

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:15 pm

Syl wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

It still won't change anything.  These women will still be able to access NHS maternity care based simply on the fact they are pregnant.

I haven't said they should not.....only that some system should be brought in to claw some of the money spent on them back IF they are not entitled to free NHS care.

There already is one.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/nhs-visitor-and-migrant-cost-recovery-programme
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Syl on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:21 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Syl wrote:

I haven't said they should not.....only that some system should be brought in to claw some of the money spent on them back IF they are not entitled to free NHS care.

There already is one.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/nhs-visitor-and-migrant-cost-recovery-programme

I know....but the point of the whole recent debate about this is that it's either not efficient enough or the way it's being handled is wrong.

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:25 pm

Syl wrote:

I know....but the point of the whole recent debate about this is that it's either not efficient enough or the way it's being handled is wrong.

Only one real way to stop people who aren't entitled to free treatment getting it and that is to make everyone pay regardless of who they are.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:29 pm

And to make them pay upfront before even receiving treatment.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Syl on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:34 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:And to make them pay upfront before even receiving treatment.

If treatment is deemed "immediately necessary" no one is refused treatment and forced to pay upfront, and maternity care comes into that category, which is right and correct.

I think the fault lies in chasing up the charges later.

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:38 pm

Syl wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:And to make them pay upfront before even receiving treatment.

If treatment is deemed "immediately necessary" no one is refused treatment and forced  to pay upfront, and maternity care comes into that category, which is right and correct.

I think the fault lies in chasing up the charges later.

Yes, but if the foreign person then returns to their home country, how do they chase them.

It would probably cost more to do that than the cost of the treatment in the first place.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Syl on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:42 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Syl wrote:

If treatment is deemed "immediately necessary" no one is refused treatment and forced  to pay upfront, and maternity care comes into that category, which is right and correct.

I think the fault lies in chasing up the charges later.

Yes, but if the foreign person then returns to their home country, how do they chase them.

It would probably cost more to do that than the cost of the treatment in the first place.

I don't know the answer Spindleshanks, I suspect if I did I would be working for the government. Laughing

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:44 pm

Syl wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Yes, but if the foreign person then returns to their home country, how do they chase them.

It would probably cost more to do that than the cost of the treatment in the first place.

I don't know the answer Spindleshanks, I suspect if I did I would be working for the government. Laughing

I think the cost of chasing them for payment is probably a big part of why a lot of the money isn't reclaimed.

Not very cost effective if someone owes the NHS £5,000 but it costs the NHS £10,000 to get it back, especially if they fail to get it back.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Syl on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:51 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Syl wrote:

I don't know the answer Spindleshanks, I suspect if I did I would be working for the government. Laughing

I think the cost of chasing them for payment is probably a big part of why a lot of the money isn't reclaimed.

Not very cost effective if someone owes the NHS £5,000 but it costs the NHS £10,000 to get it back.

No one knows how brexit is going to pan out.....but one way of keeping the costs down is not having people here in the first place so they cant demand free NHS services. IF free movement is changed in the future that's one solution.

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:54 pm

Syl wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

I think the cost of chasing them for payment is probably a big part of why a lot of the money isn't reclaimed.

Not very cost effective if someone owes the NHS £5,000 but it costs the NHS £10,000 to get it back.

No one knows how brexit is going to pan out.....but one way of keeping the costs down is not having people here in the first place so they cant demand free NHS services. IF free movement is changed in the future that's one solution.

If you are talking about people from the European union then the rules are somewhat different.

In many cases there is a reciprocal health care agreement and these people can get free care anyway, their government are the ones who pay and if those people live and work here, why shouldn't they get free NHS care?
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:56 pm

In fact the UK has a reciprocal health care agreement with some countries outside the EU too.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Syl on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:00 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Syl wrote:

No one knows how brexit is going to pan out.....but one way of keeping the costs down is not having people here in the first place so they cant demand free NHS services. IF free movement is changed in the future that's one solution.

If you are talking about people from the European union then the rules are somewhat different.

In many cases there is a reciprocal health care agreement and these people can get free care anyway, their government are the ones who pay and if those people live and work here, why shouldn't they get free NHS care?

This isn't about the people who are entitled to free NHS care, it's about the ones who are not.
If people live and work here they should be entitled to get the same care as anyone else.

Off for the night....have a good one. x

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:01 pm

scrat wrote:Perhaps we should just go down the sports direct route, and allow mothers to give birth in workhouse toilets!

Someone I know gave birth to a baby sitting on the toilet.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:02 pm

Syl wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

If you are talking about people from the European union then the rules are somewhat different.

In many cases there is a reciprocal health care agreement and these people can get free care anyway, their government are the ones who pay and if those people live and work here, why shouldn't they get free NHS care?

This isn't about the people who are entitled to free NHS care, it's about the ones who are not.
If people live and work here they should be entitled to get the same care as anyone else.

Off for the night....have a good one. x

Yes Syl, I know what its about. It's how to resolve it that is the issue. Personally, unless absolutely everyone has to pay I don't think there is a way to resolve it.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:02 pm

Major wrote:Interesting sensible debate which is a change.

The government can move the goalposts, change things.

Anyone who enters our country legally will have a passport.

Do we as British Citizens still have a National Health Insurance number issued at birth ?????


Yes, we do.

Or rather not so sure it's a national health insurance number but simply a national health number.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Lord Foul on Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:21 pm

whats your number major....666 by any chance?

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:25 pm

Major wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Yes, we do.

Or rather not so sure it's a national health insurance number but simply a national health number.

Sounds right Spindle. I am just trying to make the point that treatment for all entitled people with a number is straight forward.

It's also straight forward for pregnant women regardless of their nationality or entitlement. They will get NHS maternity care regardless of their entitlement or ability to pay for it. Having a National Health number or showing a passport will make no difference to that.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:37 pm

Major, the costs mentioned here are small change to the tax avoiders and tax evaders. You need to refocus your energy and your ire on those who are the real problem and who really steals our country's money. The money that we need for the NHS and most other things as well.

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:56 pm

Major wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Major, the costs mentioned here are small change to the tax avoiders and tax evaders. You need to refocus your energy and your ire on those who are the real problem and who really steals our country's money. The money that we need for the NHS and most other things as well.

Whether or not it is "small change", it is mine, our change not that of foreigners.
With any luck the law will be changed and OUR OWN people will be better looked after.
It seems you would rather look after foreigners than OUR OWN

No, no. I would rather look after those that are in this country and need it wherever they cam from and there is enough money ripped out of this country by the tax fraudsters to do that.

Wise up man and get your priorities in the right order.

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:51 am

Major wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Major, the costs mentioned here are small change to the tax avoiders and tax evaders. You need to refocus your energy and your ire on those who are the real problem and who really steals our country's money. The money that we need for the NHS and most other things as well.

Whether or not it is "small change", it is mine, our change not that of foreigners.
With any luck the law will be changed and OUR OWN people will be better looked after.
It seems you would rather look after foreigners than OUR OWN

What do you mean by 'our own people' Major?
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by nicko on Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:55 am

He means British people, isn't that obvious?
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:57 am

nicko wrote:He means British people, isn't that obvious?

How do you define British people Nicko?
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:02 am

Major wrote:SS. It is obvious who I mean by our own people.
I am curtailed nowadays how I scribe things cus I usually call a spade a spade.

I want my own people to have the very best and quite frankly outside scroungers cause us to suffer.

Question for you if I may.

Do you think I am wrong for wanting the very best for my own people first?

Yes or no????????

Happy new year

Not really it isn't Major.  Britain through the ages is made up of a vast number of people whose ancestral origins began elsewhere.

ETA:- Sorry didn't answer your question.

First I would like you to define exactly who you mean by your own people.


Last edited by Spindleshanks on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by nicko on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:09 am

I do have an example of non British people taking us for a "ride".

Earlier last year a Woman from Nigeria got off a plane from that country and went straight to a maternity hospital complaining of pain. On examination she was found to be almost 9 months pregnant
and was in Labour. She was admitted and gave birth to Twins.
because of complications she and her babies spent 3 weeks in the Hospital. When she left she owed over £250 thousand pounds.
She never paid a penny back despite her Husband being a Nigerian
Diplomat who could well afford it. She got on that plane knowing full well that she was in labour but had no intention of paying for her treatment. That is what people are pissed off about !
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:13 am

nicko wrote:I do have an example of non British people taking us for a "ride".

Earlier last year a Woman from Nigeria got off a plane from that country and went straight to a maternity hospital complaining of pain.  On examination she was found to be almost 9 months pregnant
and was in Labour.   She was admitted and gave birth to Twins.
because of complications she and her babies spent 3 weeks in the Hospital.  When she left she owed over £250 thousand pounds.
She never paid a penny back despite her Husband being a Nigerian
Diplomat who could well afford it.   She got on that plane knowing full well that she was in labour but had no intention of paying for her treatment.    That is what people are pissed off about !

Don't you mean she had quins?

I doubt she got on the plane in labour, she would have likely delivered on the plane if she had and considering it was quins I would imagine she actually went into premature labour which is not exactly her fault.

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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:17 am

Actually, that might not be the same case, do you have a link for the one you posted about as I can't find it on Google.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by nicko on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:22 am

So you do know about it? Quines you say, How long does it take to fly from Nigeria to London? Some labours last longer than 24 hours, she knew full well what she was doing. Don't try to excuse it.
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by nicko on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:32 am

PS, IF IT WAS quines, why was she allowed to travel?

Answer, her husband was a Diplomat!
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:35 am

nicko wrote:So you do know about it?   Quines you say, How long does it take to fly from Nigeria to London?  Some labours last longer than 24 hours, she knew full well what she was doing. Don't try to excuse it.

It takes about 6 and half hours not including the time waiting after check in to board and the time waiting for luggage at the other end.

However, you are wrong because she had been in this country for a while before she gave birth at 32 weeks by C section.

Nowhere can I find any link to her being a diplomats wife either although it is claimed he is a wealthy businessman.

The hospital involved have also stated they will not be chasing her for the money owed to them.

The hospital involved yesterday admitted it sent only one request for payment, more than six months after Miss Ayelabola left the hospital – and had failed to take any further action when it was returned unpaid.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3214709/African-mum-quintuplets-let-145-000-NHS-bill-Health-tourist-came-UK-birth-says-no-one-s-asked-pay.html#ixzz4UVN3RkRq
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by Spindleshanks on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:39 am

nicko wrote:PS,    IF IT WAS quines, why was she allowed to travel?

Answer, her husband was a Diplomat!

She didn't know she was carrying more than one child and the fact that she was allowed to travel probably means she wasn't 32 weeks at the time she flew.

Individual airlines have their own policies regarding pregnant women.

Her scan in the UK confirmed quads, it wasn't until the C section that the fifth baby was found.  It isn't unusual for scans not to be completely accurate.

An emergency NHS scan showed she was expecting four babies.
Owing to the size and complexity of the birth, she underwent a caesarean section 32 weeks into her pregnancy on April 28.
During the procedure at Homerton Hospital in East London, doctors discovered there was a fifth child. She gave birth to two boys, Tayseel and Samir, and three girls: Aqeelah, Binish and Zara.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2010934/Milking-health-service-NHS-pays-200k-Nigerian-health-tourists-babies-provides-free-IVF-single-mother-39.html#ixzz4UVOA7BIQ
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Re: Foreign Pregnant Health Tourists

Post by nicko on Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:05 am

It would appear SS that you are trying to make excuses for her?

The fact remains, she knew she was pregnant, she came here for free treatment, otherwise why hasn't she paid up?
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