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Post by Andy on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:27 am

Arctic heatwave could break records - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38417198cientists now say the Arctic heatwave is entirely down to man madeclimate change.


It doesn't take a genius to work that out.

The world is getting warmer.
And mankind is causing it.


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Post by eddie on Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:13 pm

Course it is! Humans ruin everything

I do all I can recycling, low wattage bulbs etc
What else can we do??

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Post by Andy on Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:21 pm

Get everyone to admit it's happening?

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Post by Victorismyhero on Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:24 pm

link not working HA Arctic heatwave 2190311264

it gonna get toasty...and wet.

sucessive govts of all shades have had millions if not billions in "carbon taxes"

where are the necessary flood defences??


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Post by Andy on Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:26 pm

Not sure why the link is broken, Vic. It is on the main BBC online news though

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Arctic heatwave could break records - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38417198

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:53 pm


Yawn...

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Post by Andy on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:57 pm

Mods. Why has monkey parachuted into this debate contrary to your own rules?

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Post by Victorismyhero on Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:38 pm

has he attacked any poster?
NO

THERIN is the problem...not merely commenting, however briefly or crypticaly on the substance of the POST

OUR problem is those who "parachute in" with the intent of attacking other individual posters...

Ya didnt like it when I did it...did you?


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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:00 pm

Handy Andy wrote:Arctic heatwave could break records - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38417198  
Scientists now say the Arctic heatwave is entirely down to man madeclimate change.
It doesn't take a genius to work that out.

The world is getting warmer.
And mankind is causing it.
Edit this link into your opening topic HA, it works perfectly! 
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38417198 
Arctic heatwave could break records
By Victoria Gill Science reporter, BBC News

  • 24 December 2016 From the section Science & Environment

Temperatures at the North Pole could be up to 20 degrees higher than average this Christmas Eve, in what scientists say is a record-breaking heatwave.
Climate scientists say these unseasonably warm weather patterns in the Arctic region are directly linked to man-made climate change.
Temperatures throughout November and December were 5C higher than average.
It follows a summer during which Arctic sea ice reached the second-lowest extent ever recorded by satellites.
Arctic heatwave _92713923_novthkmapImage copyright ESA/CPOM/LEEDS UNI  
Image caption  Arctic sea ice extent is monitored and measured by satellite imaging                
Dr Friederike Otto, a senior researcher at Oxford's Environmental Change Institute told BBC News that in pre-industrial times "a heatwave like this would have been extremely rare - we would expect it to occur about every 1,000 years".

Dr Otto added that scientists are "very confident" that the weather patterns were linked to anthropogenic climate change.
"We have used several different climate modelling approaches and observations," she told BBC News.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38417198 
Factual Data and consistent reporting; perhaps the deniers {like Cheeto-King} will be drowned out by the absolutes and the lame/lazy lesser thinkers will cower and STFU! 
One can only keep projecting the facts and hope that people take notice; this isn't a 'my region vs your region' ...this is the ONLY PLANET we all reside upon!  Suspect

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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:19 pm

eddie wrote:Course it is! Humans ruin everything

I do all I can recycling, low wattage bulbs etc
What else can we do??
Valid question but will we as the worst gluttons & waste perpetrators of our planet actually do what is needed? 

We collectively, can do much better with our own household trash - we can do much better to avoid burning fossil fuels - we must do better about adding to the human foot print; but will we?
Trash Planet: Germany
 July 13, 2009
The Trash Planet series highlights various countries around the world and how they handle their waste.
Germany leads the European nations in recycling, with around 70 percent of the waste the country generates successfully recovered and reused each year. To put that figure into perspective, consider this: In 2007, the U.S. was able to recover only about 33 percent of the waste generated that year.
To operate such a successful waste management system nationwide is certainly no small feat, but for the past several years the Germans have made it look easy. So how do they do it?
“Recycling is very important in Germany,” says Günseli Aksoy, a 24-year-old mechanical engineering student at the Braunschweig University of Technology. “The people here are very conscientious.”
And while the country’s conscientious waste management strategy requires cooperation from the government, the industry and the citizens, it starts at the very beginning of the waste creation process – with the product manufacturers.
There are three simple components the manufacturers must consider: waste avoidance, waste recovery and environmentally compatible disposal.
By incorporating waste avoidance into industry, much of Germany’s waste management becomes “invisible,” as corporations are forced to re-think every aspect of manufacturing. Packaging, processes and disposal of items are all engineered with recycling and elimination of waste in mind.

Federal Waste Management Policy



In 1996, German lawmakers who were concerned about the country’s growing number of landfills passed the Closed Substance Cycle and Waste Management Act, which requires businesses to eliminate waste production by implementing one or more of the three management strategies.
Waste avoidance is first priority because it encourages companies to design their manufacturing processes and packaging with elimination of wastefulness in mind. Second, waste that can’t be avoided must be recycled or converted into energy. Lastly, waste that can’t be recovered must be disposed of in a way that is environmentally safe.
The concept in which private industries are responsible for eliminating waste – and for covering the costs – is described as the “polluter pays” principle. In other words, those who create the waste are responsible for cleaning up the mess. The U.S. has a “consumer pays” policy, in which waste management is funded by taxpaying citizens.
Germany’s three-point strategy doesn’t apply to just the country’s solid and packaging wastes, but also to liquid, gaseous, hazardous, radioactive and medical wastes. The efforts have been hugely successful; according to the German Federal Statistical Office, between the years 1996 and 2007, the country has reduced its total net waste amount by more than 37.7 million U.S. tons.

Packaging Ordinance



Even before Germany’s Closed Substance Cycle and Waste Management Act formed the country’s national waste management policy, legislators knew they needed to make big changes. Something had to be done to reduce the amount of solid waste the country was generating each year.
In 1991, Germany adopted its Packaging Ordinance, which requires all manufacturers to collect and then recycle or reuse their packaging after it is disposed of by consumers.
Making corporations responsible for their packaging to the end of its life cycle encourages them to package goods with fewer materials in order to minimize recycling and disposal costs.
The Ordinance focuses on improving three categories of packaging:

  • Transport packaging (crates and shipping boxes)
  • Secondary packaging (non-essential boxes, such as around bottles of vitamins)
  • Primary packaging (casings that come in contact with the product, such as toothpaste tubes)  
    http://earth911.com/earth-watch/trash-planet-germany/


One of my FB friends asked me {some months ago} how much debris I was allowed to place to the curb - how it was collected - if we had any curb side recycling! 
That led into quite an interesting feed back from the people on my FB connection.  Some serious 'green earth' friends and some deniers that just can't see how many tons of trash is being brought into my state and used as 'Landfill' for those old abandoned rock quarries! 
Where the toxic drainage leeches off into the surrounding ground water and contaminates many areas for miles away from that old rock quarry.
We humans are 'trashing' up our planet, and allowing educated countries to ignore the need to CLEAN IT UP, and ignoring 3rd world countries that are shoving the toxic crap into our oceans! No  

Past the time to PLAY HARD BALL, with this environmental issue ...but will the {my} government(s) stand strong on this issue now?  pale

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Post by Andy on Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:32 pm

Lord Foul wrote:has he attacked any poster?
NO

THERIN is the problem...not merely commenting, however briefly or crypticaly on the substance of the POST

OUR problem is those who "parachute in" with the intent of attacking other individual posters...

Ya didnt like it when I did it...did you?

It just makes him look like the dolt we know he is.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:34 pm

Handy Andy wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:has he attacked any poster?
NO

THERIN is the problem...not merely commenting, however briefly or crypticaly on the substance of the POST

OUR problem is those who "parachute in" with the intent of attacking other individual posters...

Ya didnt like it when I did it...did you?

It just makes him look like the dolt we know he is.

theres no crime in that

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Post by Andy on Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:41 pm

The warming of the Arctic circle will clearly impact sea levels and climate in Northern Europe. We must await research to find out by how much and how quickly it will affect  us.
Fortunately, Tommykins is so tired and bored, he will yawn and sleep through it.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:47 pm

Handy Andy wrote:The warming of the Arctic circle will clearly impact sea levels and climate in Northern Europe. We must await research to find out by how much and how quickly it will affect  us.
Fortunately, Tommykins is so tired and bored, he will yawn and sleep through it.

and in what way....

it may not go the way some think

If the melt water kills the atllantic conveyor then we could suddenly turn rather cold...given we are on the same lattitude as moscow...

alternatively we could get a bit hotter still....

but in either case it looks like some low lying areas might well get rather wet.....

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Post by Andy on Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:52 pm

There is already action underway to help the submerging low lying Pacific islands which are under threat.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/pacific-islands-take-steps-to-counter-rising-sea-levels-1448934453

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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:11 pm

Handy Andy wrote:There is already action underway to help the submerging low lying Pacific islands which are under threat.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/pacific-islands-take-steps-to-counter-rising-sea-levels-1448934453
And as the oceans and seas change and continue to rise, the disruptions in the temperatures has had a noticeable marked impact upon the types of fish that we humans enjoy at our table - harder to track the ones that we don't eat, but the impact is being seen by NOAA.
Arctic heatwave Slr_sla_gbl_free_txj1j2_90_500

Vast number of humans are sustained by the daily catch of their specific type of fish - lots to humans sustain their livelihoods by this type of business {both large and small} ...ignoring the issues we've created to our planet is creeping up on us faster then we hoped.
Many of America's military bases have been having issues with extreme high tides {see the global warming thread-lots of posted articles and links on there} ...we do not have a PLAN in place to relocate all of those bases ...some, yes - all ...not hardly! No

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:14 pm

When water freezer it expands... the Arctic sea ice is floating in the water and displacing more of it when frozen...


Try this little experiment to show what happens to water levels when I've melts...

Get a large bowl... fill it with water... then put loads of ice cubes in it...

The water level is right at the top... yes...?


Now... leave it for a couple hours until all the ice has melted...


Look at the water level now...


IT WILL BE LOWER NOW THAN WHEN THERE WAS ICE!!!




But all this arctic thing is a flash in the pan of normal...


The jet stream has been higher and pulling warm air up there in the Arctic...

This happens sometimes!!!


While it was minus 6 centigrade last night and parts of the M5 were closed because it had frozen over!!!


We know that solar activity has increased output of the sun over the last 100 years... we also know that global temperatures are well within the expected ranges seen over the last 2000 years or so...


Last edited by Tommy Monk on Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by 'Wolfie on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:39 pm

Idea

The rises in sea levels won't be very great, up around the Arctic circle...

Most Arctic ice is already floating  (there is no Arctic 'continent' --  unlike Antarctica..).   So there simply won't be the widespread gradual inundation of land that will be experienced in the more southern Pacific and Indian ocean climes..

There are other, more serious problems that will occur, more often and more frequently :

Increased storm surges, with accompanying local flooding and erosion;
Increased extreme weather conditions --  more hot periods, more cold periods, more dry stretches, more severe storms;
Severe changes to environments --  including 'loss of habitat' for Polar bears, whales, seals, and many types of birds;
Severe changes to agricultural practices;
And increasing "mass migrations" -- of both humans and wildlife --  to levels undreamt of in Tommy and Major's worst nightmares..


Military bases and seaports are already being arranged by those countries with territories within the Arctic circle, for the day when the fabled "North West Passage" becomes reality.         Arctic heatwave 3974176704

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:43 pm

Here's you, Tommy:

Arctic heatwave Unskeptical%20scientist-9cm-1

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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:49 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote: Idea

The rises in sea levels won't be very great, up around the Arctic circle...

Most Arctic ice is already floating  (there is no Arctic 'continent' --  unlike Antarctica..).   So there simply won't be the widespread gradual inundation of land that, will be experienced in southern climes..

There are other, more serious problems that will occur, more often and more frequently :

Increased storm surges, with accompanying local flooding and erosion;
Increased extreme weather conditions --  more hot periods, more cold periods, more dry stretches, more severe storms;
Severe changes to environments --  including 'loss of habitat' for Polar bears, whales, seals, and many types of birds;
Severe changes to agricultural practices;
And increasing "mass migrations" -- of both humans and wildlife --  to levels undreamt of in Tommy and Major's worst nightmares..


Military bases and seaports are already being arranged by those countries with territories within the Arctic circle, for the day when the fabled "North West Passage" becomes reality.         Arctic heatwave 3974176704

Visions from the bubble that he dwells = just to be ignored, the regurgitation of his opinion is Sleep 

The depth {or the lack there of} the arctic ice has changed the work cycles for North Shore production; serious cut backs on the timing for heavy equipment to be driven out upon those prior locations. 
How would I know '?'; as I've posted over on the other 'Global Warming' topic ...numerous old friends and more recent acquaintances that have used that form of employment for the past 10+ years are now trying to find other employment due to shortages in work schedules out of Alaska.
Yes, wise Wolf ...the ripple effect for these ocean/seas temperatures and depth changes can't keep up with the escalation and the damages being done. 
More frequent/stronger storms from the typhoon/hurricanes/tornadoes ...right into winter blizzards and freakish straight line El Nino/La Nino driven winds will be a hazardous/costly impact that many locations can ill afford to clean up.  

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Post by 'Wolfie on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:50 pm

Handy Andy wrote:There is already action underway to help the submerging low lying Pacific islands which are under threat.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/pacific-islands-take-steps-to-counter-rising-sea-levels-1448934453


Cool

I'VE written of that situation before, in probably every second post that I have made on climate change over the past few years...

Unlike those brainless climate denialist stooges sucking on the coal and oil company proverbials, those people actually out on the ground and having to deal with the fallout have been making plans and preparations for the best part of the last decade..

And despite and against all the blatherings and deflections from the coal barons, oil twonks, paid lobbyists, lickspit morons, and their supplicant politicians.

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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:58 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Handy Andy wrote:There is already action underway to help the submerging low lying Pacific islands which are under threat.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/pacific-islands-take-steps-to-counter-rising-sea-levels-1448934453 

Cool

I'VE written of that situation before, in probably every second post that I have made on climate change over the past few years...

Unlike those brainless climate denialist stooges sucking on the coal and oil company proverbials,  those people actually out on the ground and having to deal with the fallout have been making plans and preparations for the best part  of the last decade..

And despite and against all the blatherings and deflections from the coal barons, oil twonks, paid lobbyists, lickspit morons, and their supplicant politicians.
I've been both excited and encouraged by our POTUS and his many attempts to shove our nation along with 'Wind & Solar Power' solutions; given the locations globally {like England and others} that have had such options in place and the mistakes and changes that were necessary to improve the service ...we shouldn't be lagging so far behind in these options. 
Live and learn from each other - improve and develop - turn away from fossil fuel burning and avoid Nuclear Energy as a absolute last resort.  
But my thoughts/concerns for our future regarding all of these very issues has taken a great interest since the recent election of our future ignorant arsed man that has zero clue in this regard. Evil or Very Mad
Our aging energy grid is soooo horribly exposed and he's taunting the world about bombing ISIS. Arctic heatwave 3018442852

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Post by nicko on Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:07 pm

I'M not in agreement with Windmills [Bird Choppers] but Solar Power and, my favourite, tidal power, seems the way to go !
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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:21 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Here's you, Tommy:

Arctic heatwave Unskeptical%20scientist-9cm-1


No that is the climate change scientists who have been caught out before fudging the figures...!

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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:49 pm

nicko wrote:I'M not in agreement with Windmills [Bird Choppers]    but Solar Power and,  my favourite, tidal power,   seems the way to go !


I'M not in agreement with Windmills [Bird Choppers]   Rolling Eyes  

Perhaps you are unaware that they do not rotate at the speed of our common house hold fans - nor even the wind driven speeds of our American Wind Mills for rural water wells ...that the rotation is very slow and limited due to the size of the turbines and the length and width of the blades Suspect
Have you ever actually been to 'ANY' wind farms - observed how they operate '?' or are you just Assuming that you know? Arctic heatwave 2190311264

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:31 pm

nicko wrote:I'M not in agreement with Windmills [Bird Choppers]    but Solar Power and,  my favourite, tidal power,   seems the way to go !

How do you feel about buildings, housecats and cars?

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-wind-turbines-really-kill-180948154/

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Here's you, Tommy:

Arctic heatwave Unskeptical%20scientist-9cm-1


No that is the climate change scientists who have been caught out before fudging the figures...!

Wrong, they have not.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:36 pm

I don't know much about global warming, but I think it's awful how much stuff is dumped. Things like fridges, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, etc. People seem to replace them every five minutes whereas they should really last for many years. Are they made to not last long these days?

Think about all the stuff which is chucked out after Christmas too. I'm not sure about this, but I think that some councils don't like recycling wrapping paper. Then there's all the stars and ribbons that people use to adorn presents. Baubles and tree decorations seem to be replaced every year in some households too, so the old ones get chucked out.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:38 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't know much about global warming, but I think it's awful how much stuff is dumped. Things like fridges, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, etc. People seem to replace them every five minutes whereas they should really last for many years. Are they made to not last long these days?

Think about all the stuff which is chucked out after Christmas too. I'm not sure about this, but I think that some councils don't like recycling wrapping paper. Then there's all the stars and ribbons that people use to adorn presents. Baubles and tree decorations seem to be replaced every year in some households too, so the old ones get chucked out.

Well, of course they're not made to last long -- if they lasted, the corporations that make them wouldn't sell nearly as many.

That's why I was so keen on modular smart phones, but everybody seems to have abandoned them.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:39 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I don't know much about global warming, but I think it's awful how much stuff is dumped. Things like fridges, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, etc. People seem to replace them every five minutes whereas they should really last for many years. Are they made to not last long these days?

Think about all the stuff which is chucked out after Christmas too. I'm not sure about this, but I think that some councils don't like recycling wrapping paper. Then there's all the stars and ribbons that people use to adorn presents. Baubles and tree decorations seem to be replaced every year in some households too, so the old ones get chucked out.

Well, of course they're not made to last long -- if they lasted, the corporations that make them wouldn't sell nearly as many.

That's why I was so keen on modular smart phones, but everybody seems to have abandoned them.

That's what I thought, and I think it's a shame. Phones are also replaced all the time when a new model comes out, but I think they can be re-used or recycled or something.

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Post by Andy on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:40 pm

Good points Rags. Non biodegradable rubbers and plastics affact the ecology of sites, fauna and flora.
Everything is linked and interdependant.
Climate change just exaggerates that change.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:41 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


No that is the climate change scientists who have been caught out before fudging the figures...!

Wrong, they have not.


Oh yes they have!!!

Didn't you know...?

lol!

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:42 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I don't know much about global warming, but I think it's awful how much stuff is dumped. Things like fridges, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, etc. People seem to replace them every five minutes whereas they should really last for many years. Are they made to not last long these days?

Think about all the stuff which is chucked out after Christmas too. I'm not sure about this, but I think that some councils don't like recycling wrapping paper. Then there's all the stars and ribbons that people use to adorn presents. Baubles and tree decorations seem to be replaced every year in some households too, so the old ones get chucked out.

Well, of course they're not made to last long -- if they lasted, the corporations that make them wouldn't sell nearly as many.

That's why I was so keen on modular smart phones, but everybody seems to have abandoned them.

That's what I thought, and I think it's a shame. Phones are also replaced all the time when a new model comes out, but I think they can be re-used or recycled or something.

In the U.S., they can be donated to seniors who live alone, since they can call emergency services with or without a carrier. I believe some cities collect used smartphones to use in lower-income schools so that kids can learn about technology, but I don't think that's done in many places.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:43 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


No that is the climate change scientists who have been caught out before fudging the figures...!

Wrong, they have not.


Oh yes they have!!!

Didn't you know...?

lol!

Oh no they haven't!

Several independent investigations have proven they didn't! http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/solutions/fight-misinformation/debunking-misinformation-stolen-emails-climategate.html#.WGK2PBvQeUk

Didn't you know...?

lol!

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:45 pm



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/globalwarming/11395516/The-fiddling-with-temperature-data-is-the-biggest-science-scandal-ever.html

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:48 pm

A three-part Penn State University cleared scientist Michael Mann of wrongdoing.

Two reviews commissioned by the University of East Anglia"supported the honesty and integrity of scientists in the Climatic Research Unit."

A UK Parliament report concluded that the emails have no bearing on our understanding of climate science and that claims against UEA scientists are misleading.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Inspector General's office concluded there was no evidence of wrongdoing on behalf of their employees.

The National Science Foundation's Inspector General's office concluded, "Lacking any direct evidence of research misconduct...we are closing this investigation with no further action."

The Environmental Protection Agency, in response to petitions against action to curb heat-trapping emissions, dismissed attacks on the science rooted in the stolen emails.

Factcheck.org debunked claims that the emails put the conclusions of climate science into question.

Politifact.com rated claims that the emails falsify climate science as "false."

An Associated Press review of the emails found that they "don't undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions."

So, Tommy, I guess now the big question is why Penn State, East Anglia University, the Parliament, NOAA, the National Science Foundation, the EPA, Factcheck.org, Politifact.com and the Associated Press are conspiring to deceive us, right?

Arctic heatwave 3489511464 Arctic heatwave 2581891615

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:23 pm

Did you not read the article I posted... it was about altering of data... not emails...

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Did you not read the article I posted... it was about altering of data... not emails...

The email hack was about scientists supposedly altering data. It's just more from the world of right wing lies that makes up your reality.

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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:48 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Did you not read the article I posted... it was about altering of data... not emails...

The email hack was about scientists supposedly altering data. It's just more from the world of right wing lies that makes up your reality.

Suspect   And the connected dots for those emails ...would be filled with the faked data and remarked upon within the emails; but explaining that to Tommykins is as useful as his grasping this entire 'Global Warming' issue!  FUTILE Rolling Eyes 

But a dear friend sent this link to aide in his potential educational attempt ...never let it be said that we just give up and deny Tommy a chance to LEARN!

https://nsidc.org/news/newsroom/20050801_floatingice.html

Melting of Floating Ice Will Raise Sea Level


Arctic heatwave Float_1
 
Figure 1: A freshwater ice cube floats in a beaker of concentrated saltwater. Note that the ice cube floats much higher in the saltwater than it would in a glass of freshwater because saltwater has a greater density.
 
Arctic heatwave Float_2
 
Figure 2: When the freshwater ice melts, it raises the water level. Freshwater is not as dense as saltwater; so the floating ice cube displaced less volume than it contributed once it melted.
 
When ice on land slides into the ocean, it displaces ocean water and causes sea level to rise. People believe that when this floating ice melts, water level doesn’t rise an additional amount because the freshwater ice displaces the same volume of water as it would contribute once it melts. Similarly, people also think that when ocean water freezes to form sea ice and then melts, the water is merely going through a change of state, so it won’t affect sea level. However, in a visit to NSIDC in May, Dr. Peter Noerdlinger, a professor at St. Mary’s University in Nova Scotia, Canada, suggested otherwise.
In a paper titled "The Melting of Floating Ice will Raise the Ocean Level" submitted to Geophysical Journal International, Noerdlinger demonstrates that melt water from sea ice and floating ice shelves could add 2.6% more water to the ocean than the water displaced by the ice, or the equivalent of approximately 4 centimeters (1.57 inches) of sea-level rise.
The common misconception that floating ice won’t increase sea level when it melts occurs because the difference in density between fresh water and salt water is not taken into consideration. Archimedes’ Principle states that an object immersed in a fluid is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the fluid it displaces. However, Noerdlinger notes that because freshwater is not as dense as saltwater, freshwater actually has greater volume than an equivalent weight of saltwater. Thus, when freshwater ice melts in the ocean, it contributes a greater volume of melt water than it originally displaced.
Noerdlinger's collaborator, Professor Kay R. Brower, of the New Mexico Institute of Technology, Socorro, validated the effect experimentally as seen in Figures 1 and 2.

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Post by Andy on Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:28 pm

When I put ice in my white Zinfandel, it makes it dissappear much quicker.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:31 pm


IPCC admit they got it wrong...


And...


"...They admit large parts of the world were as warm as they are now for decades at a time between 950 and 1250 AD – centuries before the Industrial Revolution, and when the population and CO2 levels were both much lower..."


And...


"...The IPCC admits that while computer models forecast a decline in Antarctic sea ice, it has actually grown to a new record high. Again, the IPCC cannot say why..."


All here...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2420783/Worlds-climate-scientists-confess-Global-warming-just-QUARTER-thought--computers-got-effects-greenhouse-gases-wrong.html

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:42 pm



And here is some more evidence of warmer times and ice free shipping routes from Northern Europe to Iceland and greenland...


http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/vikings_during_mwp.html

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Post by 'Wolfie on Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:27 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
Oh yes they have!!!

Didn't you know...?

lol!

Oh no they haven't!

Several independent investigations have proven they didn't! http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/solutions/fight-misinformation/debunking-misinformation-stolen-emails-climategate.html#.WGK2PBvQeUk

Didn't you know...?

lol!

Razz

TOMMY has to keep on proving what a lying little dolt he is, time after time...

He claims that the genuine scientists "fudge.. figures..."
When his only "evidence" comes from denialist bloggers.

He claims that he has "studied" the scientific evidence..
When he clearly doesn't even understand basic maths, let alone statistics, sciences, or the underlying engineering principles.

He drags out supposed "reputable" scientists and "academic" studies in an attempt to refute evidential  and demonstrable facts..
Which again invariably come from corporate spivs and shills in the guilty Coal and Oil companies, often boldly led and financed by the likes of the infamous Koch bros....
Arctic heatwave 2686688521

Certainly,  let Tommy Monk keep on peddling his idiotic, and unpaid, corporate propaganda puff pieces..
Just don't believe anybody who tries to excuse his outright lies as some kind of "opinions".

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:02 am

From 4evers scientists Web pages...


"...Continuing the warm Arctic pattern seen in October, November air temperatures were far above average over the Arctic Ocean and Canada. Air temperatures at the 925 hPa level (about 2,500 feet above sea level) were above the 1981 to 2010 average over the entire Arctic Ocean and, locally up to 10 degrees Celsius (18 degrees Fahrenheit) above average near the North Pole. This is in sharp contrast to northern Eurasia, where temperatures were as much as 4 to 8 degrees Celsius (7 to 14 degrees Fahrenheit) below average (Figure 2b). Record snow events were reported in Sweden and across Siberia early in the month.

In autumn and winter, the typical cyclone path is from Iceland, across the Norwegian Sea and into the Barents Sea. This November, an unusual jet stream pattern set up, and storms instead tended to enter the Arctic Ocean through Fram Strait (between Svalbard and Greenland). This set up a pattern of southerly wind in Fram Strait, the Eurasian Arctic and the Barents Sea and accounts for some of the unusual warmth over the Arctic Ocean. The wind pattern also helped push the ice northwards and helps to explain why sea ice in the Barents Sea retreated during November.


Sea surface temperatures in the Barents and Kara Seas remained unusually high, which also helped prevent ice formation. These high sea surface temperatures are a result of warm Atlantic water circulating onto the Arctic continental shelf seas..."


http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

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Post by Guest on Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:30 am

Arctic heatwave Asina_N_stddev_timeseries-350x280
Figure 2a. The graph above shows daily Arctic sea ice extent as of December 5, 2016, along with daily ice extent data for four previous years. 2016 is shown in blue, 2015 in green, 2014 in orange, 2013 in brown, and 2012 in purple. The 1981 to 2010 average is in dark gray. The gray area around the average line shows the two standard deviation range of the data. Sea Ice Index data.


Arctic heatwave Monthly_ice_11_NH-350x270
Figure 3. Monthly November ice extent for 1979 to 2016 shows a decline of 5.0 percent per decade.


Warm Arctic delays ice formation in Svalbard’s fjords

Arctic heatwave Fig4a-350x275
Figure 4a. This plot shows ocean temperature by depth (y axis, in decibars; a decibar is approximately one meter) along a transect (x axis, in kilometers) from the outer continental shelf to the inner parts of Isfjorden, the largest fjord in the Svalbard archipelago, for mid November 2016. (Areas in black show the undersea topography.) Atlantic Water is as warm as 5 degrees Celsius (41 degrees Fahrenheit) and the surface layer still about 2 degrees Celsius (36 degrees Fahrenheit). The surface layer would normally have cooled to the salinity adjusted freezing point at (-1.8 degrees Celsius, 29 degrees Fahrenheit) at this time of year, enabling sea ice formation.

************************************************

Yes, indeedy ...because reading the data seems to be a serious flaw in your ability to grasp the information we keep handing to you; I'll just keep to the pretty images/graphs and written simplistic stats in hopes that it enlightens your need to GET CURRENT!   LOL  Razz

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:50 am

There has been warmer times before over the last 2000 years...


And over the last 20,000 years....


And over the last 200,000 years...


You show me a graph where current temperatures and Arctic sea ice levels are considerably outside of the average over the long term... and I will then start to take your bleating seriously...!


Problem is... you can't!!!


Because all the long term evidence shows that nothing unusual is happening...


Except that we have come out of an unusual cold period lasting a few centuries, and returning to temperatures that are much more normal compared to the previous couple thousand years!!!



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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:21 am

"...Noerdlinger notes that because freshwater is not as dense as saltwater, freshwater actually has greater volume than an equivalent weight of saltwater. Thus, when freshwater ice melts in the ocean, it contributes a greater volume of melt water than it originally displaced..."


This is flawed reasoning... firstly because we are not talking about volume of one being comparable to weight of other... we are talking volume of both... and increased surface area of frozen water compared to the force of displacement to the surrounding unfrozen water... also it is a factor that the more frozen water (ice) that is created, the more concentrated the salt level becomes in the surrounding unfrozen sea water...


And another thing... the 'experiment' didn't say how concentrated the salt level was in their water compared to sea water...was it regular sea water/salt level of or 'dead sea' levels of salt?

Or even more?



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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:44 am

Tommy, you're just niggling on a confusion of minor points of disagreement. The essence of the science has been well established for decades: carbon dioxide leads to a warmer planet. Human beings have been pumping lots of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere for a long time. Thus, the planet is warming.

Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and it really is just as simple as that. But you've drifted far from the truth and find yourself hating those who speak it.

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Post by eddie on Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:50 am

Please see how the adults on this topic managed to debate this issue without getting personal.

It's really easy to do!!!!!!

For some.

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Post by nicko on Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:07 am

Can some one tell me how much carbon is discharged into the Atmosphere when a Volcano erupts, bearing in mind that at any one time several are erupting some where on the Planet? How about cows farting tons of Methane, and under water Methane bubbles exploding on the seas surface.

Aren't they adding to warming?
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