UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

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UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:02 pm

This is a proud moment in the history of the UK as the UK ambbassador to the UN votes calling for an end to Israel bulding illegal settlements in the West Bank. Not before time people stood up to this and showed it for what it is.

This is the moment as our ambassador raises his hand ...


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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by nicko on Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:21 pm

Perhaps they could call for Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel,
But that wouldn't enter your biased mind would it?
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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:25 pm

nicko wrote:Perhaps they could call for Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel,
But that wouldn't enter your biased mind would it?

There are several groups firing rockets into Israel but the Hamas government isn't one of them.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by nicko on Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:28 pm

As Sassy told you they do not?
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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:32 pm

nicko wrote:As Sassy told you they do not?

What? I make up my own mind and don't depend on others for my views. And just to add Hamas are not in control of the West Bank where the settlements are being built so bringing them up is a red-herring.

And Sassy hasn't posted on this thread Nicko so why are you bringing her up?

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by nicko on Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:40 am

Because Sassy has be in her bonnet about Israel and Palestine,
and you and her are of the same mind, you both hate Israel.
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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:27 pm

On the same vote, the US abstained, where in the past they have always vetoed such measures.  I'm not as proud of them as the UK should be of their statesmen, but it's a move in the right direction for the US too.

The single greatest obstacle to peace in the middle east is the Lebensraum, or illegal settlement of land by Israel.  When, on the eve of the last elections in Israel, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said there would be no Palestinian state during his term, it was clear that Israel is using world support to conduct a territory grab.  This is a patent unwillingness of Israel to seek peace.

The real answer is to let Israel go it alone, then.  However, American not only has too many Jews as friends and neighbors, but they are among the valued intelligentsia of the nation.  So the US is understandably unwilling to give Israel the full measure of what it deserves, but this should serve as a warning.  The world's good will cannot be banked and used to turn a profit.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:08 am

soapbox           And see today where Netanyahu has already started abusing the UN, Britain and the USA, in his typical spoilt_brat manner...

I would love to see modern-day Israel, with their current expansionist fascist guvm'nt, divorce itself from American sponsorship;  (and there would go some half of the current Israeli military capacity..).

Imagine a stand-alone Israel trying to keep it's miltary together, with an economy that's comparable to that of New South Wales  !            cyclops


Last edited by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:13 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Original Quill on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:12 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:soapbox           And see today where Netanyahu has already started abusing the UN, Britain and the USA...

I would love to see modern-day Israel, with their current expansionist fascist guvm'nt, divorce itself from American sponsorship;  (and there would go some half of the current Israeli military capacity..).

Imagine a stand-alone Israel trying to keep it's miltary together, with an economy that's comparable to that of New South Wales  !         cyclops

Fook 'im. He'll end up in the same trash bin as Trump.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:05 am

nicko wrote:Because Sassy has be in her bonnet about Israel and Palestine,
and you and her are of the same mind,   you both hate Israel.

Nicko, let's get one thing straight - I do not hate Israel. I'm on about what this current Israeli government are doing and it seems that the UN and this country agrree with me.

Now that's three times you contibuted on this thread and all you have done is introduce another member into it who has not even posted on this thread. That is goading and diverting it from the subject in hand which is a clear breach of the rules.

You're a decent guy and I quite like you so please mind how you go.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by eddie on Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:17 am

nicko wrote:As Sassy told you they do not?

Whilst your post isn't exactly nasty as per the others I've read and warned this morning, sassy isn't here to defend herself and so your post is unnecessary.

Do not make your first post about others, Nicko.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by eddie on Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:20 am

Irn Bru wrote:
nicko wrote:Because Sassy has be in her bonnet about Israel and Palestine,
and you and her are of the same mind,   you both hate Israel.

Nicko, let's get one thing straight - I do not hate Israel. I'm on about what this current Israeli government are doing and it seems that the UN and this country agrree with me.

Now that's three times you contibuted on this thread and all you have done is introduce another member into it who has not even posted on this thread. That is goading and diverting it from the subject in hand which is a clear breach of the rules.

You're a decent guy and I quite like you so please mind how you go.


Then you best get your arse over to the other two threads where you'll find worse posts than this that you actually ignored!!! Rolling Eyes

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:26 am

eddie wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
nicko wrote:Because Sassy has be in her bonnet about Israel and Palestine,
and you and her are of the same mind,   you both hate Israel.

Nicko, let's get one thing straight - I do not hate Israel. I'm on about what this current Israeli government are doing and it seems that the UN and this country agrree with me.

Now that's three times you contibuted on this thread and all you have done is introduce another member into it who has not even posted on this thread. That is goading and diverting it from the subject in hand which is a clear breach of the rules.

You're a decent guy and I quite like you so please mind how you go.


Then you best get your arse over to the other two threads where you'll find worse posts than this that you actually ignored!!!  Rolling Eyes

Just to clarify, Nicko came back three times with remarks about another poster and i ignored the first two but on the third I thought it best to just give him a friendly nudge that he could be heading for trouble if he keeps that up. I could of course habe stuck him in the basement but I'm not one to stomp around with jackboots and a stick hitting people over the head to beat them into obeying anything. I think it probably would have worked but we don't know now.

And I can't let you get away with your remarks that I ignored the other two threads simply because what was added that you are not haooy with were added after I had logged off and left and this is the first time I have been on-line again since then.

If you want to issue a correction that's up to you but I'm not fussed if you don't.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by eddie on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:33 am

Hahahaha can't even remember why i was annoyed with you now anyway or what it was about.
A million words have come and gone since then.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:36 am

eddie wrote:Hahahaha can't even remember why i was annoyed with you now anyway or what it was about.
A million words have come and gone since then.

Well there's only a few posts in the thread so it should be easy for you to quickly remind yourself.

Never mind....

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by eddie on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:45 am

Irn Bru wrote:
eddie wrote:Hahahaha can't even remember why i was annoyed with you now anyway or what it was about.
A million words have come and gone since then.

Well there's only a few posts in the thread so it should be easy for you to quickly remind yourself.

Never mind....

I'm not going to mind. Like I said, a shitfest came upon the forum the last couple of days and this is nothing compared to that.
Still it's all over now.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:48 am

eddie wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
eddie wrote:Hahahaha can't even remember why i was annoyed with you now anyway or what it was about.
A million words have come and gone since then.

Well there's only a few posts in the thread so it should be easy for you to quickly remind yourself.

Never mind....

I'm not going to mind. Like I said, a shitfest came upon the forum the last couple of days and this is nothing compared to that.
Still it's all over now.

It is and just as well that you know that I never ignored the two threads like you claimed I did.


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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by nicko on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:15 am

I'D just like to mention that I was in Israel for 6 months, I watched some Arabs sitting around doing nothing while the Israel's worked hard changing dusty weed covered land into a green oasis that provided food for hundreds, Arabs included. They also provided paid work for Arabs who didn't mind working. This was a long time ago, so don't know if the same ideas are working today ! Just something I thought I'd mention.
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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:19 am

nicko wrote:I'D just like to mention that I was in Israel for 6 months, I watched some Arabs sitting around doing nothing while the Israel's worked hard changing dusty weed covered land into a green oasis that provided food for hundreds,  Arabs included. They also provided paid work for Arabs who didn't mind working. This was a long time ago, so don't know if the same ideas are working today !  Just something I thought I'd mention.

Years ago I was at a Best Buy electronics store and witnessed a British man yelling at his two small children (a little girl and an even smaller boy) in front of everyone because they'd been playing a game between the aisles. Made a real scene! I don't know if British people are still this way, but that's what I saw.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by nicko on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:30 am

What has that got to do with my post? I know your not keen on the BRITISH, but don't make it so obvious.
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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:59 am

nicko wrote:
I'D just like to mention that I was in Israel for 6 months, I watched some Arabs sitting around doing nothing while the Israel's worked hard changing dusty weed covered land into a green oasis that provided food for hundreds,  Arabs included. They also provided paid work for Arabs who didn't mind working. This was a long time ago, so don't know if the same ideas are working today !  Just something I thought I'd mention.

        Doesn't matter how hard people work hard dry rocky dusty land...

It won't produce too many crops without a few external inputs...

Water, fertilisers, pesticides, soil conditioners;
Farm machinery, outside labour;
Education for those wanting to learn to farm;
Money to keep things ticking over..



Money came in from USA, Britain, the UN, and later on from Germany and Austria;
Subsidised machinery, fertiliser, seeds from the USA;
Australia taught the Israelis how to farm..         Idea

That was back in the 1950s and '60s..

Israel exports a lot of oil, and a fair whack of weaponry, to help support their homegrown agricultural and manufacturing sectors -- and the #2 military force in the Middle East region (after Turkey..)..


Today, Israel has some of the most polluted waterways in the world -- courtesy of the Israeli guvm'nt refusing point blank to place the necessary pollution controls over the (man made) irrigation canals built to service those farms...         geek


Last edited by WhoseYourWolfie on Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:10 am

nicko wrote:What has that got to do with my post?   I know your not keen on the BRITISH,  but don't make it so obvious.

Well, you pretty much underlined my point, which is that anecdotes are basically useless.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by nicko on Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:01 am

Well why bring the British into it, you could have said German, Italian ect. It was just a reply to have a go at the Brits, No sense in your reply and you know it.
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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:33 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
nicko wrote:I'D just like to mention that I was in Israel for 6 months, I watched some Arabs sitting around doing nothing while the Israel's worked hard changing dusty weed covered land into a green oasis that provided food for hundreds,  Arabs included. They also provided paid work for Arabs who didn't mind working. This was a long time ago, so don't know if the same ideas are working today !  Just something I thought I'd mention.

Years ago I was at a Best Buy electronics store and witnessed a British man yelling at his two small children (a little girl and an even smaller boy) in front of everyone because they'd been playing a game between the aisles. Made a real scene! I don't know if British people are still this way, but that's what I saw.

Some are, and they're even louder than the children who are mucking about and blocking the aisles. Laughing

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:02 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
nicko wrote:What has that got to do with my post?   I know your not keen on the BRITISH,  but don't make it so obvious.

Well, you pretty much underlined my point, which is that anecdotes are basically useless.

Nicko, we have to lead you to the bathroom these days, don't we?

The point is, you can't generalize from specifics.  Your life and experience are but a pin-prick in the overall status of the world...or in this case, the status of Israel.  First, there's the limited perspective of your experience...you are hardly omniscient.  Then, there's your selective perception, by which you've already made up your mind what you are going to look for and talk about.

When a neutral person reads your post, it's like WTF?

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by nicko on Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:37 pm

Quill, your an intelligent bloke, but sometimes you baffle me with your omnipotence.
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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:04 pm

nicko wrote:Quill, your an intelligent bloke,   but sometimes you baffle me with your omnipotence.

Why thank you, nicko. But even I am not omnipotent...nor am I omniscient nor omnipresent. It's just a matter of keeping your eyes and ears open.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:22 pm

nicko wrote:Well why bring the British into it,   you could have said German, Italian ect.   It was just a reply to have a go at the Brits,  No sense in your reply and you know it.

This really happened and they really were British. Beyond that though, it seems like sometimes one can't truly understand unfairness until one's own group is treated unfairly.

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:26 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
nicko wrote:Well why bring the British into it,   you could have said German, Italian ect.   It was just a reply to have a go at the Brits,  No sense in your reply and you know it.

This really happened and they really were British. Beyond that though, it seems like sometimes one can't truly understand unfairness until one's own group is treated unfairly.

Hmm...self interest. Interesting theory of Justice. What about empathy?

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Re: UK govenment supports UN resolution on illegal settlements

Post by Thorin on Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:15 pm

Original Quill wrote:On the same vote, the US abstained, where in the past they have always vetoed such measures.  I'm not as proud of them as the UK should be of their statesmen, but it's a move in the right direction for the US too.

The single greatest obstacle to peace in the middle east is the Lebensraum, or illegal settlement of land by Israel.  When, on the eve of the last elections in Israel, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said there would be no Palestinian state during his term, it was clear that Israel is using world support to conduct a territory grab.  This is a patent unwillingness of Israel to seek peace.

The real answer is to let Israel go it alone, then.  However, American not only has too many Jews as friends and neighbors, but they are among the valued intelligentsia of the nation.  So the US is understandably unwilling to give Israel the full measure of what it deserves, but this should serve as a warning.  The world's good will cannot be banked and used to turn a profit.



How can you applaud something that has happened before in history?
Making the West Bank and and East Jerusalem Judenrein. As it once before happened when the Jordanians Ethically cleansed the West Bank and East Jerusalem of Jews after they conquered these areas in 1948.

Whilst I support the view to condemn Israel on the demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians. Which occurs to terrorist families in the main. The claim that Israel cannot resettle Jews into areas they were ethnically cleansed goes against the Geneva convention and 1922 Mandate that called for all the areas of the West Bank and East Jerusalem to be a part of the historical Jewish home. Which stated for the resettlement of Jewish refugees. This has never been rescinded and is binding in international law. Jordan was the partitioned part created for the Arabs. The Arabs in the area going to be the creation of the home for Jews, committed countless atrocities against the Jews. With throughout countless times, always refusing to recognizing the self determination of the Jewish people in the Middle East. 

The Uk went to war against Germany because of the self determination of the Polish people and this resolution is rewarding the aggressors, the Palestinians Arabs, for countless violence, wars and terrorism. It would be like rewarding Germany after the defeat in world war 2. This resolution is as bad and so one sided, its as appalling as the British white paper of 1939. That sentenced to death hundreds of thousands of Jews in Europe, by restricting the number of Jewish refugees and all to appeal to violence from Arabs.

Now I can go into great detail how in fact there is no legal bases for this resolution, as there has never been a Palestinian state recognized  that can be classed as in occupation. Especially when the areas were originally assigned to the Jews. Hence why Jordan was created for the Arabs. Now in 1993 the settlements were not an obstacle for peace for the Oslo accords.


Here is a map of the settlements in 1993.



 Here is a map of the settlements today overlapped with 1993.



The myth of "expanding settlements" is the single biggest lie in conflict, and it is one that is repeated ad nauseam by top US, European and UN officials as settled fact. That's why they always use population figures instead of amount of hectares of space taken up by Jewish communities - because those actual numbers don't fit the narrative of Israel destroying the chances for peace.

If peace was possible in 1993, it is now. If it wasn't then, it isn't now. Nothing fundamental has changed - except the amount of demonization of Israel by her supposed "friends."

The people who blame Jewish settlements for the lack of peace - while ignoring the Second Intifada, and the "knife intifada," and constant incitement to murder Jews, and every PA map that erases the Jewish state - are hypocrites and liars. And that includes Barack Obama, John Kerry, and nearly every Western world leader.
_______________________________

If you have patience, here are two B'Tselem maps, one from 2002 - right after the Clinton parameters that Arafat rejected - and one from 2011. See how much these Jewish communities have supposedly grown. Graphics design experts may want to show the actual differences in the size of Jewish communities over the time period. (I wish I had the skill to do that.)

In actuality, the answer is very little. The communities took about 2% of the land over the Green Line then and they still do.



As you can see, the world is being told a whopper of a lie by Kerry. All that is happened is the expansion of previously created infrastructure built for Jews in areas, that once had Jews living in many cases. In other words it was not an issue then, but now with their expansion. The claim is it is going to stop any peace.
So how was it not a problem to initiate talks before for the Oslo accords, but it is now?

What you have is Obama pandering not only to terrorism violence from the Palestinians. Thinking wrongly he will win over Muslims into stop hating the US. Negating that when the US and many EU countries stepped in and helped stopped the genocide of Jews in Bosnia. That it matter little to those who's goal is the Islamification of the world and the biggest obstacle at present is the US to this for the extremists. The rhetoric of hate is against democracy itself by the Salafists. Plus the fact the Palestinians have on countless occasions thwarted the chance to have a Palestinian state themselves countless times.




Lastly I will deal with the usual poor and unjustified claim of Lebensraum.

Israel's Arab population has continually grown and they enjoy more rights than any other Arab state.

Israel has given up land for peace






What did the US doing on its creation as a nation?




Lets look at the history here and see an actual comparisons to Lebensraum, as since then all the land has been taken by the US.



Because a significant number of Indians consistently rebuffed demands that they cede their lands and because Americans were determined to acquire them anyway, the United States constantly pursued war against Indians. Indeed, America was born fighting Indians. In the early phases of the Revolutionary War most Indian nations allied with Great Britain in large measure because they saw a new settler nation as an unprecedented threat to their lands.

After 1815, the United States intensified its efforts to expand. To do so, it adopted a policy, formally institutionalized through the Indian Removal Act of 1830, of moving all Indians living east of the Mississippi River to Indian Territory (the modern states of Kansas and Oklahoma). As measured by lives lost, Indian removal was far more destructive than the earlier period of war. Consider the three largest Indian nations east of the Mississippi, the Choctaws, Creeks, and Cherokees, each with approximately 20,000 people. During the removal process in the 1830s, approximately 2,000 Choctaws, 4,500 Creeks, and 5,000 Cherokees perished, mostly from intersecting factors of disease, starvation, exposure, and demoralization. Many hundreds died during the journey west, though the “trail of tears” metaphor obscures the fact that the majority of deaths occurred in internment camps while awaiting transportation west and in the first few years after relocation. The death toll for all three nations—close to 20 percent—is equivalent to 60 million for the current U.S. population. Smaller nations north of the Ohio also suffered significant losses through removal. A reported forty-three Potawatomis in a group of eight hundred died as they traveled from Indiana to Kansas, while sixty Wyandots, mostly young children, in a group of seven hundred died from disease shortly after their arrival in the West.

http://americanhistory.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199329175.001.0001/acrefore-9780199329175-e-3


So I take it you do understand the double standard you are applying based off US history and that you are from California?

Lets compare Israel to the US in landmass



And to top it off the US itself occupies people and this is what it says to the UN

Among the annual UN demands of the US concerning Guam is:
Called once again upon the administering Power to take into consideration the expressed will of the Chamorro people as supported by Guam voters in the referendum of 1987 and as subsequently provided for in Guam law regarding Chamorro self-determination  efforts, encouraged the administering Power and the territorial Government to enter into negotiations on the matter, and stressed the need for continued close monitoring of the overall situation in the Territory;

Here is how the US responds to the UN demands for self-determination in Guam:
In a letter dated 2 November 2006 addressed to the delegate of American Samoa to the United States House of Representatives, the Assistant Secretary of State for Legislative Affairs elaborated on the position of the Government of the United States. He indicated that the status of the insular areas regarding their political relations with the federal Government was an internal United States issue, and not one that came within the purview of the Special Committee on the Situation with regard to the Implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples. He also noted that the Special Committee had no authority to alter in any way the relationship between the United States and those territories and had no mandate to engage the United States in negotiations on their status.

In other words, when the UN wants to help the residents of Guam to achieve self-determination, the US tells the UN to go to hell.

No protests, no BDS.. The US can act with impunity towards the residents of Guam and keep the island as a colony despite UN attempts to work towards more independence.


And on a final note.



According to the EUMC,
Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for ‘why things go wrong’.
The EUMC then goes on to cite specific examples of antisemitism including:

  • Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.



  • Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.



  • Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.



  • Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).



  • Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.



  • Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.


Specifically with respect to Israel, taking into account the overall context, the EUMC gave the following examples:

  • Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.



  • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.



  • Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.



  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.



  • Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

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Thorin

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