Both my comments are true... or are they...?

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Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:50 am

First topic message reminder :

4EVER2 thinks I am wrong...


Tommy Monk wrote:
Lurker wrote:A nativity scene for Trump supporters, no refugees, no Jews, no Arabs, no Blacks.


Not sure about that... but there were definitely no Muslims back then...
Rather ODD, how you'll start your post with a 'not sure', but then you quickly followed that up with a "but there were definitely no Muslims back then!" statement ...Sweet Jesus Suspect    Tommykins, still proving that lack of reading and just sticking your neck out to get it chopped off! 

If you don't like this thread about 'Thumping-Chump' then ignore all of the sarcastic banter and continued pungent jabs that the rest of us do ...

IT'S RATHER OBVIOUS WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT ...DUHHHH
10. Islam: Islam is the one of the oldest religion of the world that was brought by the Holy Prophet PBUH. It is the monotheistic religion in which the Muslims believe of the oneness of Allah Almighty and the Prophet Hood. Islam is the second major religion of the world with almost 1.5 billion followers called Muslims. The origin of the Islam was started in the 622 AD and it was spread to the whole world within a short period of time.
9. Christianity: standing next on our list is the religion called Christianity that was started in the 300 AD before the advent of Islam. It is also a monotheistic religion that was based on the teaching of the Jesus Christ. Christianity is world’s major religion with around 2.1 billion followers. The Christians believe the Jesus Christ to be the son of Allah Almighty and reserves the Holy book called Bible or New Testament.
8. Taoism: Taoism is the one of the oldest religion that arrives before the arrival of Christianity. It was actually a tradition of Chinese origin that gives the lesson of living in peace and harmony. However Taoism can also be found in the other religions and was started in the 4 to 3rd century BC.
7. Jainism: the other oldest religion of the world is the Jainism or usually called Jain Dharma and it belongs to the Indian religions. The religion teaches to be the non-violent, non- stealing, non- absolute and non- possessive. It is a philosophy of eternity that spread all across the India from the very first day of its origin, 450 BC.
6. Confucianism: it is next on our list because it is the one of the oldest religion that describes the ethical and sociopolitical teachings and is spread in the countries like China, Hong Kong, Macau, Japan, Vietnam and Singapore. The advent of this religion started in the 500 BC.
5. Shinto: it is the ethical religion that is followed in the Japan. The religion focus on the ethical values of the people of the Japan there are several types of Shinto that is practiced all over the Japan and it is the largest religion of Japan. The origin of this religion was recorded in the 8th century and is till famous.
4. Buddhism: it is another oldest and the famous religion of the world that consist of the various traditions and practices that are based on the teachings of the Gautama Buddha. The religion was started in the 6th and 4th BC that awakened the regions of China, Thailand, Japan, Korea and India with the estimated followers of 488 million throughout the world.
3. Zoroastrianism: next on our list is the religion that is among the oldest religions of the world. The religion offers the cosmogonic dualism and monotheism in the regions like Iran and India with the 2.6 million followers. The religion started in the 1000 BCE and the basic beliefs of this religion are the Good thoughts, good words and the good deeds.
2. Judaism: the Judaism is the one of the oldest religion that teaches way of life. The Jewish people follow the religion of Judaism that contains the philosophy of culture and the philosophy of monotheism. Torah is the evidence and the foundational text of the Judaism. The origin of this religion was 2000 BCE.
1. Hinduism: this religion is the oldest religion of since the evolution of human beings on Earth that was originate in 4000 to 2500 BCE. It is the dominant religion that is followed mostly in the regions of South Asia like India and Nepal. The Hinduism revolves around the family of the Gods who gave the teachings of cosmology, pilgrimage of the sacred sites and shared textual resources.
http://www.listawake.com/top-10-oldest-religions-of-the-world/

     This statement is just insanity, lamely disguised as a possible attempt at humor; but sorrowfully wrong in all aspects just the same!

Saddam hussein and his baath party were leftie socialists!
And under his rule Iraq was relatively stable, secular and peaceful.



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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:03 pm

4EVER2 wrote:Not for you to judge, obviously it was something deeply burning issue for Tommykins or he'd not be squirming/twirling and trying to twist what he's been trying to claim into more fragmented threads! 

  He likes the attention, don't cha know!

Well he was right. You're the one who was arguing about it.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:17 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
4EVER2 wrote:Not for you to judge, obviously it was something deeply burning issue for Tommykins or he'd not be squirming/twirling and trying to twist what he's been trying to claim into more fragmented threads! 

  He likes the attention, don't cha know!

Well he was right. You're the one who was arguing about it.

Annnnnd you were the #1 that yanked his chain and led him into his twirling cycle of confusion on a Topic/Thread that you just couldn't avoid ...yet had to derail
Education and the attempt to open one's LOCKED MIND, should never be just left to fester ...always - always try to broaden the scope of their limited ideology; even the unfortunate members like Tommykins! 
BTW - this is a debate based community; have you forgotten AGAIN?

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:18 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well he was right. You're the one who was arguing about it.

Annnnnd you were the #1 that yanked his chain and led him into his twirling cycle of confusion on a Topic/Thread that you just couldn't avoid ...yet had to derail
Education and the attempt to open one's LOCKED MIND, should never be just left to fester ...always - always try to broaden the scope of their limited ideology; even the unfortunate members like Tommykins! 
BTW - this is a debate based community; have you forgotten AGAIN?

Nope. I wasn't the one sitting here on Christmas day arguing about it - you were. He is right about Islam and Muslims, you are wrong.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:26 pm



There were no Muslims around 2000 years ago... and Saddam hussein was a leftie socialist!!!


Both true!!!

lol!

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:27 pm

Well, the best way for you to PROVE your limited POV would be to bring something of factual data/link/articles in here for discussion ...but I'll never take your word for this issue! 
As I've already proven my POV many times over and there are others on here that have agreed. 

BTW - the obtuse/coy overlooking where the question arose is quite your style; but you were very much the perpetrator in Tommykins jaunt into the Trump Venting topic and that's where this all started. 
Bet you thought you'd slide by with that one, Naaaaaa.  Being Coy, just doesn't cut it anymore! Wink

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:30 pm

4EVER2 wrote:Well, the best way for you to PROVE your limited POV would be to bring something of factual data/link/articles in here for discussion ...but I'll never take your word for this issue! 
As I've already proven my POV many times over and there are others on here that have agreed. 

BTW - the obtuse/coy overlooking where the question arose is quite your style; but you were very much the perpetrator in Tommykins jaunt into the Trump Venting topic and that's where this all started. 
Bet you thought you'd slide by with that one, Naaaaaa.  Being Coy, just doesn't cut it anymore! Wink

If that was addressed to me, I don't need to prove anything. The facts are well documented, and you are wrong.

In the Trump thread, I remarked that the nativity scene was in bad taste. You're the one who started making claims which you must know are wrong.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:43 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
4EVER2 wrote:Well, the best way for you to PROVE your limited POV would be to bring something of factual data/link/articles in here for discussion ...but I'll never take your word for this issue! 
As I've already proven my POV many times over and there are others on here that have agreed. 

BTW - the obtuse/coy overlooking where the question arose is quite your style; but you were very much the perpetrator in Tommykins jaunt into the Trump Venting topic and that's where this all started. 
Bet you thought you'd slide by with that one, Naaaaaa.  Being Coy, just doesn't cut it anymore! Wink

If that was addressed to me, I don't need to prove anything. The facts are well documented, and you are wrong.

In the Trump thread, I remarked that the nativity scene was in bad taste. You're the one who started making claims which you must know are wrong.

scratch   Still confused about how a 'QUOTATION' works ... lol!

Well, that's as you often do; stomp into a topic - derail it - Tommykins follows your lame lead and then posts more ignorant BS and gets called on it and awayyyyyy we go.  Your claims about "FAITH" leave much to be questioned and if the unfortunate Tommykins looks to your lead in such matters then he's being played for even a bigger FOOL. 
You can't support your position and I'll never leave YOUR OPINION about anything to do with FAITH as a absolute.  So reading and knowledge is the best defense for willful ignorance and out right lies. 
I support my POV with documentation and even Ben attempted a rejoinder but my data was far more current. 
So I see your - INABILITY to reply and acknowledge your unfounded rational as it always has been ...just hysteria driven and overly emotional.   

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:48 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

If that was addressed to me, I don't need to prove anything. The facts are well documented, and you are wrong.

In the Trump thread, I remarked that the nativity scene was in bad taste. You're the one who started making claims which you must know are wrong.

scratch   Still confused about how a 'QUOTATION' works ... lol!

Well, that's as you often do; stomp into a topic - derail it - Tommykins follows your lame lead and then posts more ignorant BS and gets called on it and awayyyyyy we go.  Your claims about "FAITH" leave much to be questioned and if the unfortunate Tommykins looks to your lead in such matters then he's being played for even a bigger FOOL. 
You can't support your position and I'll never leave YOUR OPINION about anything to do with FAITH as a absolute.  So reading and knowledge is the best defense for willful ignorance and out right lies. 
I support my POV with documentation and even Ben attempted a rejoinder but my data was far more current. 
So I see your - INABILITY to reply and acknowledge your unfounded rational as it always has been ...just hysteria driven and overly emotional.   

The claim was related to when Islam began, not about faith. I didn't lead Tommy into anything. You argued with him on another thread, so he started this thread. It was nothing to do with me, as much as you'd like it be.

Are you really claiming that Islam existed before Christianity?

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:52 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
4EVER2 wrote:

scratch   Still confused about how a 'QUOTATION' works ... lol!

Well, that's as you often do; stomp into a topic - derail it - Tommykins follows your lame lead and then posts more ignorant BS and gets called on it and awayyyyyy we go.  Your claims about "FAITH" leave much to be questioned and if the unfortunate Tommykins looks to your lead in such matters then he's being played for even a bigger FOOL. 
You can't support your position and I'll never leave YOUR OPINION about anything to do with FAITH as a absolute.  So reading and knowledge is the best defense for willful ignorance and out right lies. 
I support my POV with documentation and even Ben attempted a rejoinder but my data was far more current. 
So I see your - INABILITY to reply and acknowledge your unfounded rational as it always has been ...just hysteria driven and overly emotional.   

The claim was related to when Islam began, not about faith. I didn't lead Tommy into anything. You argued with him on another thread, so he started this thread. It was nothing to do with me, as much as you'd like it be.

Are you really claiming that Islam existed before Christianity?

Does it really matter?

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have roots that go back to Abraham.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:55 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

The claim was related to when Islam began, not about faith. I didn't lead Tommy into anything. You argued with him on another thread, so he started this thread. It was nothing to do with me, as much as you'd like it be.

Are you really claiming that Islam existed before Christianity?

Does it really matter?

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have roots that go back to Abraham.

It matters in the context of this thread. That's what it's about, apart from the other issue which Tommy raised.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Does it really matter?

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have roots that go back to Abraham.

It matters in the context of this thread. That's what it's about, apart from the other issue which Tommy raised.

I don't think I've actually managed to work out what the actual context of this thread is tbh.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:03 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It matters in the context of this thread. That's what it's about, apart from the other issue which Tommy raised.

I don't think I've actually managed to work out what the actual context of this thread is tbh.


It started because of this thread:

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t18769p200-donald-trump-vent-thread

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:10 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

I don't think I've actually managed to work out what the actual context of this thread is tbh.


It started because of this thread:

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t18769p200-donald-trump-vent-thread

Still about as clear as mud.

So what if there were no followers of Islam about at the time Jesus was apparently born, there weren't any followers of Christianity either.



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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:12 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It started because of this thread:

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t18769p200-donald-trump-vent-thread

Still about as clear as mud.

So what if there were no followers of Islam about at the time Jesus was apparently born, there weren't any followers of Christianity either.




4ever appears to be claiming that there were followers of Islam at that time though.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:14 pm

4EVER2 wrote:Tommy Monk wrote:
Lurker wrote:A nativity scene for Trump supporters, no refugees, no Jews, no Arabs, no Blacks.


Not sure about that... but there were definitely no Muslims back then...

******************************************

A.) you seem to not comprehend the difference between a human and a tribal name - their demographical region that they lived - and when they became known as that written worded NAME = Muslim
B.) you seem unable to separate the faith from when the HUMAN LIFE FORM existed and therein lies the crux of your deeply seated problem

Muslims existed long - LONG before there were even attributed with the written word Muslim ...they existed long - long before the thought of baby Jesus and the onset of early Christianity. 

You took a sarcastic jab at 'Cheeto-Jesus' and his anti-every human being that isn't WHITE LIKE HIM and tried to make a asinine remark that just wasn't TRUE. 
Now you either understand the huge error in your post or YOU NEVER WILL.  But I am done trying to aide you with your confusion!  Rolling Eyes
3rd or 4th time I've pulled this section forward to explain and re-explain what Tommykins stated - how he's twisted off from his initial post - how far he's running in the opposite direction and how that all was utterly unnecessary on a 'Vent Your Feelings About Trump' topic that both Raggy & Tommykins could just have trolled by!

Should you feel so inclined to back-track, Raggy; you'd find all great sources of links {both pros & cons} that substantiate my data and can't hold a flame to Tommykins and your devoid of any factual basis ideology! 
But you'd have to actually back up and read the entire topic; and we all know you never willfully chose to be an informed poster ...just drop in and start attacking - that's how you roll! Suspect

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:18 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
4EVER2 wrote:Tommy Monk wrote:


Not sure about that... but there were definitely no Muslims back then...

******************************************

A.) you seem to not comprehend the difference between a human and a tribal name - their demographical region that they lived - and when they became known as that written worded NAME = Muslim
B.) you seem unable to separate the faith from when the HUMAN LIFE FORM existed and therein lies the crux of your deeply seated problem

Muslims existed long - LONG before there were even attributed with the written word Muslim ...they existed long - long before the thought of baby Jesus and the onset of early Christianity. 

You took a sarcastic jab at 'Cheeto-Jesus' and his anti-every human being that isn't WHITE LIKE HIM and tried to make a asinine remark that just wasn't TRUE. 
Now you either understand the huge error in your post or YOU NEVER WILL.  But I am done trying to aide you with your confusion!  Rolling Eyes
3rd or 4th time I've pulled this section forward to explain and re-explain what Tommykins stated - how he's twisted off from his initial post - how far he's running in the opposite direction and how that all was utterly unnecessary on a 'Vent Your Feelings About Trump' topic that both Raggy & Tommykins could just have trolled by!

Should you feel so inclined to back-track, Raggy; you'd find all great sources of links {both pros & cons} that substantiate my data and can't hold a flame to Tommykins and your devoid of any factual basis ideology! 
But you'd have to actually back up and read the entire topic; and we all know you never willfully chose to be an informed poster ...just drop in and start attacking - that's how you roll! Suspect

Why should I have ignored that tasteless post on the Trump thread? Do you think that only you have the right to post on threads of your choosing now?

If you could perhaps post in a more coherent style, your posts might be easier to read and I might be more inclined to discuss the issue with you.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:22 pm

Ahhhhh, the avoidance and I'm going to play coy and refuse to answer you because ...well I'm just going to play PISSY child and ignore you now! 
Ohhhh, Raggy ...you are so predictable and not often amusing! Suspect

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:23 pm

4EVER2 wrote:Ahhhhh, the avoidance and I'm going to play coy and refuse to answer you because ...well I'm just going to play PISSY child and ignore you now! 
Ohhhh, Raggy ...you are so predictable and not often amusing! Suspect

That's how you are all the time anyway.

Anyway, Tommy is right.


Last edited by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:24 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Still about as clear as mud.

So what if there were no followers of Islam about at the time Jesus was apparently born, there weren't any followers of Christianity either.




4ever appears to be claiming that there were followers of Islam at that time though.

Perhaps not Islam as we know it now but there does appear to have been Polytheist people who worshipped at the Kaaba in Mecca which they believed had been built by Abraham and Ishmael.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:25 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

4ever appears to be claiming that there were followers of Islam at that time though.

Perhaps not Islam as we know it now but there does appear to have been Polytheist people who worshipped at the Kaaba in Mecca which they believed had been built by Abraham and Ishmael.

That doesn't make them Muslims.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:32 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It matters in the context of this thread. That's what it's about, apart from the other issue which Tommy raised.

I don't think I've actually managed to work out what the actual context of this thread is tbh.



The thread was because of this...




Tommy Monk wrote:
Lurker wrote:A nativity scene for Trump supporters, no refugees, no Jews, no Arabs, no Blacks.


Not sure about that... but there were definitely no Muslims back then...



And 4ever tried to claim that there were Muslims around back then... 2000 years ago, which was over 600 years before the Muslim religion was even conceived...!


lol!


Last edited by Tommy Monk on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:34 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Perhaps not Islam as we know it now but there does appear to have been Polytheist people who worshipped at the Kaaba in Mecca which they believed had been built by Abraham and Ishmael.

That doesn't make them Muslims.

Not as such, no, but it does contain that Abraham link which was followed through with Islam.

I don't pretend to understand Islam or religion per se really, but from what i've been reading Muslims believe Mohammud to be the last in the line of prophets of which Moses and Jesus were part of and what Islam did was to bring the polytheist groups under one umbrella to form a monotheist religion.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:38 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

That doesn't make them Muslims.

Not as such, no, but it does contain that Abraham link which was followed through with Islam.

I don't pretend to understand Islam or religion per se really, but from what i've been reading Muslims believe Mohammud to be the last in the line of prophets of which Moses and Jesus were part of and what Islam did was to bring the polytheist groups under one umbrella to form a monotheist religion.

None of that suggests that Islam existed at the time of the birth of Jesus. It depends if you consider that Mohammed is essential to Islam or not.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:40 pm


Muslims are followers of Islam... islam didn't start to exist until 600 years after the birth of Christ.


Jesus performed miracles... healed the sick, even rose 3 people from the dead... his message was freedom/peace/love...

Mohammed did nothing but bring war/death/murder/rape/robbery and brutal dictatorial rule based on fear...

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:42 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Not as such, no, but it does contain that Abraham link which was followed through with Islam.

I don't pretend to understand Islam or religion per se really, but from what i've been reading Muslims believe Mohammud to be the last in the line of prophets of which Moses and Jesus were part of and what Islam did was to bring the polytheist groups under one umbrella to form a monotheist religion.

None of that suggests that Islam existed at the time of the birth of Jesus. It depends if you consider that Mohammed is essential to Islam or not.

No, but the basis of it did appear to, ie Abraham and worship at the holy site in Mecca.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:49 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Not as such, no, but it does contain that Abraham link which was followed through with Islam.

I don't pretend to understand Islam or religion per se really, but from what i've been reading Muslims believe Mohammud to be the last in the line of prophets of which Moses and Jesus were part of and what Islam did was to bring the polytheist groups under one umbrella to form a monotheist religion.

None of that suggests that Islam existed at the time of the birth of Jesus. It depends if you consider that Mohammed is essential to Islam or not.

Essential in that he created a single organised faith called Islam perhaps, but the basis of that faith seems to have existed long before he was around.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:51 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

None of that suggests that Islam existed at the time of the birth of Jesus. It depends if you consider that Mohammed is essential to Islam or not.

Essential in that he created a single organised faith called Islam perhaps, but the basis of that faith seems to have existed long before he was around.


But it wasn't Islam, which is the whole point.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by HoratioTarr on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:57 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

The claim was related to when Islam began, not about faith. I didn't lead Tommy into anything. You argued with him on another thread, so he started this thread. It was nothing to do with me, as much as you'd like it be.

Are you really claiming that Islam existed before Christianity?

Does it really matter?

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have roots that go back to Abraham.

Yes, it does matter when someone is being called a liar on the subject.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by HoratioTarr on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:00 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

None of that suggests that Islam existed at the time of the birth of Jesus. It depends if you consider that Mohammed is essential to Islam or not.

Essential in that he created a single organised faith called Islam perhaps, but the basis of that faith seems to have existed long before he was around.


The basis of most religion hinges upon a concept of God, a higher spiritual energy, call is what you like. What each religion does is take that concept and twist it to fit each particular dogma.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:02 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Essential in that he created a single organised faith called Islam perhaps, but the basis of that faith seems to have existed long before he was around.


But it wasn't Islam, which is the whole point.

No, I think the whole point is whether the faith that Muslims believe existed prior to Mohammed or not.

I suggest it did in a form, Mohammed didn't create Abraham, he didn't create Mecca or the Holy site there, they already existed long before he came on the scene.

Therefore it could be argued that Muslims existed before Islam did even if not known by that name.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:04 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

But it wasn't Islam, which is the whole point.

No, I think the whole point is whether the faith that Muslims believe existed prior to Mohammed or not.

I suggest it did in a form, Mohammed didn't create Abraham, he didn't create Mecca or the Holy site there, they already existed long before he came on the scene.

No, the issue is whether Islam existed.

It's like someone claiming that Christianity existed before Jesus was born on the grounds that prophets were predicting the arrival of the Messiah ages beforehand.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:06 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:
But it wasn't Islam, which is the whole point.

No, I think the whole point is whether the faith that Muslims believe existed prior to Mohammed or not.

I suggest it did in a form, Mohammed didn't create Abraham, he didn't create Mecca or the Holy site there, they already existed long before he came on the scene.

Therefore it could be argued that Muslims existed before Islam did even if not known by that name.
**BINGO**  that was my premise - that is up there in all of my posted data/links & articles and exactly where Tommykins got lost IN TRANSLATION!

Tommykins stated > Not sure about that... but there were definitely no Muslims back then...

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:09 pm

Muslims are followers of Islam... there were no followers of Islam before Islam existed!!!


Simple logic and fact!!!

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:16 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

No, I think the whole point is whether the faith that Muslims believe existed prior to Mohammed or not.

I suggest it did in a form, Mohammed didn't create Abraham, he didn't create Mecca or the Holy site there, they already existed long before he came on the scene.

No, the issue is whether Islam existed.

It's like someone claiming that Christianity existed before Jesus was born on the grounds that prophets were predicting the arrival of the Messiah ages beforehand.

Not Christianity as we know it no but a form of it based on the anticipated birth of the Messiah.



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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:21 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

No, the issue is whether Islam existed.

It's like someone claiming that Christianity existed before Jesus was born on the grounds that prophets were predicting the arrival of the Messiah ages beforehand.

Not Christianity as we know it no but a form of it based on the anticipated birth of the Messiah.




Right, so you're saying that it existed before the birth of Jesus? That explains your other comments.


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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:21 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Essential in that he created a single organised faith called Islam perhaps, but the basis of that faith seems to have existed long before he was around.


The basis of most religion hinges upon a concept of God, a higher spiritual energy, call is what you like.   What each religion does is take that concept and twist it to fit each particular dogma.

True, but what cannot be denied is that Abraham is classed as the father of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:22 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Not Christianity as we know it no but a form of it based on the anticipated birth of the Messiah.




Right, so you're saying that it existed before the birth of Jesus? That explains your other comments.


Not Christianity per se, but a form of it.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:24 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Right, so you're saying that it existed before the birth of Jesus? That explains your other comments.


Not Christianity per se, but a form of it.

Well no, because Christianity is based on Jesus specifically being the Son of God. I think you're talking about Judaism - possibly.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:58 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Not Christianity per se, but a form of it.

Well no, because Christianity is based on Jesus specifically being the Son of God. I think you're talking about Judaism - possibly.

Well maybe, but since most people at that time were illiterate and any teachings of all the faiths have relied upon people who might not have been entirely honest about the events of the time (or they might have been who knows) then we will never really know the truth of any of it.

It all comes down to faith and interpretation

4ever believes that Muslims (albeit probably not known by that name) existed prior to the advent of Islam as we know it called today, Tommy emphatically believes they did not.

Based on what I've found out today, the link to Abraham, worshipping at the Holy site in Mecca I tend to fall more on 4evers side in that a form of the religion did indeed exist long before Mohammed came on the scene.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:03 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well no, because Christianity is based on Jesus specifically being the Son of God. I think you're talking about Judaism - possibly.

Well maybe, but since most people at that time were illiterate and any teachings of all the faiths have relied upon people who might not have been entirely honest about the events of the time (or they might have been who knows) then we will never really know the truth of any of it.

It all comes down to faith and interpretation

4ever believes that Muslims (albeit probably not known by that name) existed prior to the advent of Islam as we know it called today, Tommy emphatically believes they did not.

Based on what I've found out today, the link to Abraham, worshipping at the Holy site in Mecca I tend to fall more on 4evers side in that a form of the religion did indeed exist long before Mohammed came on the scene.

As I said, it depends on whether you think that Mohammed is central to Islam. I think he is, so I disagree with you as he wasn't born then.

So what do you think the difference is between Judaism and the form of Islam you claim existed before Mohammed?

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:11 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Well maybe, but since most people at that time were illiterate and any teachings of all the faiths have relied upon people who might not have been entirely honest about the events of the time (or they might have been who knows) then we will never really know the truth of any of it.

It all comes down to faith and interpretation

4ever believes that Muslims (albeit probably not known by that name) existed prior to the advent of Islam as we know it called today, Tommy emphatically believes they did not.

Based on what I've found out today, the link to Abraham, worshipping at the Holy site in Mecca I tend to fall more on 4evers side in that a form of the religion did indeed exist long before Mohammed came on the scene.

As I said, it depends on whether you think that Mohammed is central to Islam. I think he is, so I disagree with you as he wasn't born then.

So what do you think the difference is between Judaism and the form of Islam you claim existed before Mohammed?

Central to Islam in the form we know it now, yes I would agree with you. Central to the basis of Abraham and Mecca as a holy site, then no.

Polytheism would be the difference I guess. The worship of numerous gods but all with a foundation at the Holy site in Mecca believed to have been built by Abraham.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:18 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

As I said, it depends on whether you think that Mohammed is central to Islam. I think he is, so I disagree with you as he wasn't born then.

So what do you think the difference is between Judaism and the form of Islam you claim existed before Mohammed?

Central to Islam in the form we know it now, yes I would agree with you.  Central to the basis of Abraham and Mecca as a holy site, then no.

Polytheism would be the difference I guess.  The worship of numerous gods but all with a foundation at the Holy site in Mecca believed to have been built by Abraham.


You keep mentioning Mecca. Mohammed was born in Mecca, so there's the connection. That doesn't mean that Islam existed before he was born. Without Mohammed, it would not have existed.


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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:29 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

Central to Islam in the form we know it now, yes I would agree with you.  Central to the basis of Abraham and Mecca as a holy site, then no.

Polytheism would be the difference I guess.  The worship of numerous gods but all with a foundation at the Holy site in Mecca believed to have been built by Abraham.


You keep mentioning Mecca. Mohammed was born in Mecca, so there's the connection. That doesn't mean that Islam existed before he was born. Without Mohammed, it would not have existed.


No, the point is Islam wasn't created out of thin air. The basis of the faith was already there in my opinion, Mohammed expanded on it and formalised it.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:36 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You keep mentioning Mecca. Mohammed was born in Mecca, so there's the connection. That doesn't mean that Islam existed before he was born. Without Mohammed, it would not have existed.


No, the point is Islam wasn't created out of thin air.  The basis of the faith was already there in my opinion, Mohammed expanded on it and formalised it.

You could say that about anything. Islam was founded by Mohammed, and Muslims are his followers.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by HoratioTarr on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:51 pm

Spindleshanks wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

But it wasn't Islam, which is the whole point.

No, I think the whole point is whether the faith that Muslims believe existed prior to Mohammed or not.

I suggest it did in a form, Mohammed didn't create Abraham, he didn't create Mecca or the Holy site there, they already existed long before he came on the scene.

Therefore it could be argued that Muslims existed before Islam did even if not known by that name.

The ancient Egyptians had Gods, not 'A God'....as did the Romans and Greeks. Humans seek messiahs, they want them, they create them. They want to be led closer to 'God' in order to be immortal. It's a basic human need. If it wasn't, there'd be no religion at all.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:56 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

No, the point is Islam wasn't created out of thin air.  The basis of the faith was already there in my opinion, Mohammed expanded on it and formalised it.

You could say that about anything. Islam was founded by Mohammed, and Muslims are his followers.

I think we shall have to agree to disagree.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:56 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

No, the point is Islam wasn't created out of thin air.  The basis of the faith was already there in my opinion, Mohammed expanded on it and formalised it.

You could say that about anything. Islam was founded by Mohammed, and Muslims are his followers.

That being the case, this is a semantic difference.  Since language is the form, and idea is the content, I would gravitate toward Spin's interpretation.

By your reckoning, if Mohammed founded Islam, he thus predated Islam.  If Mohammed predated Islam, he could not have been a Muslim. It's the same reasoning by which we recognize that Jesus wasn't a Christian.  By the same reasoning, Abraham could not have been a Jew and Paul could not have been a Christian and Joseph Smith could not have been a Mormon.  Fancy that.

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Spindleshanks on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:59 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Spindleshanks wrote:

No, I think the whole point is whether the faith that Muslims believe existed prior to Mohammed or not.

I suggest it did in a form, Mohammed didn't create Abraham, he didn't create Mecca or the Holy site there, they already existed long before he came on the scene.

Therefore it could be argued that Muslims existed before Islam did even if not known by that name.

The ancient Egyptians had Gods, not 'A God'....as did the Romans and Greeks.   Humans seek messiahs, they want them, they create them.  They want to be led closer to 'God' in order to be immortal.  It's a basic human need.  If it wasn't, there'd be no religion at all.

Would that be such a bad thing?

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by HoratioTarr on Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:00 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Muslims are followers of Islam... islam didn't start to exist until 600 years after the birth of Christ.


Jesus performed miracles... healed the sick, even rose 3 people from the dead... his message was freedom/peace/love...

Mohammed did nothing but bring war/death/murder/rape/robbery and brutal dictatorial rule based on fear...

I don't know about Jesus performing miracles. But I do believe he preached love and not hate. Also, I think he was the physical embodiment of the spiritual state that we all have but forget about on this planet. In other words, when he is quoted to have said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." he meant that you have to have love in your heart and not hate to progress and evolve spiritually. But that's just my interpretation. I think the Bible is mostly a mish mash of man made writings, particularly the Old Testament and the Q'uran is even worse.
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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:01 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You could say that about anything. Islam was founded by Mohammed, and Muslims are his followers.

That being the case, this is a semantic difference.  Since language is the form, and idea is the content, I would gravitate toward Spin's interpretation.

By your reckoning, if Mohammed founded Islam, he thus predated Islam.  If Mohammed predated Islam, he could not have been a Muslim.  It's the same reasoning by which we recognize that Jesus wasn't a Christian.  By the same reasoning, Abraham could not have been a Jew and Paul could not have been a Christian and Joseph Smith could not have been a Mormon.  Fancy that.


So at Jesus's birth there were definitely no Muslims!


Laughing


Last edited by Tommy Monk on Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Both my comments are true... or are they...?

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