Donald Trump and Syria

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Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:24 pm

Donald Trump has indicated that he is not in favour of supporting the rebel groups in Syria, and that he'd rather concentrate on stopping ISIS.

“My attitude was you’re fighting Syria, Syria is fighting ISIS, and you have to get rid of ISIS. Russia is now totally aligned with Syria, and now you have Iran, which is becoming powerful, because of us, is aligned with Syria... Now we’re backing rebels against Syria, and we have no idea who these people are.”

https://www.rt.com/news/366647-trump-syria-isis-russia-relations/

Mr Trump has stated that while he “did not like [Mr Assad] at all”, shoring up his regime is the best way to stem the extremism that has flourished in the chaos of the civil war and threatens the US.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-president-elect-donald-trump-support-assad-putin-syria-remove-rebel-backing-a7413346.html

What say you? I think he has a point. Supporting the rebels with "training" or whatever isn't going to make much difference IMO. It will merely prolong the war and possibly allow ISIS to make progress whilst everyone else is fighting everyone else. The US could end up clashing with Russia, which would be yet another distraction in the war against ISIS and other extremists.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:32 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Donald Trump has indicated that he is not in favour of supporting the rebel groups in Syria, and that he'd rather concentrate on stopping ISIS.

“My attitude was you’re fighting Syria, Syria is fighting ISIS, and you have to get rid of ISIS. Russia is now totally aligned with Syria, and now you have Iran, which is becoming powerful, because of us, is aligned with Syria... Now we’re backing rebels against Syria, and we have no idea who these people are.”

https://www.rt.com/news/366647-trump-syria-isis-russia-relations/

Mr Trump has stated that while he “did not like [Mr Assad] at all”, shoring up his regime is the best way to stem the extremism that has flourished in the chaos of the civil war and threatens the US.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-president-elect-donald-trump-support-assad-putin-syria-remove-rebel-backing-a7413346.html

What say you? I think he has a point. Supporting the rebels with "training" or whatever isn't going to make much difference  IMO. It will merely prolong the war and possibly allow ISIS to make progress whilst everyone else is fighting everyone else. The US could end up clashing with Russia, which would be yet another distraction in the war against ISIS and other extremists.

Let them fight it out.  We shouldn't concern ourselves about hostilities half-a-world away, except as it offers a good show.  We are a new, 'low-energy' America. Let the New York Times, Associated Press and various news sources inform us, and stop sending our children over there.  

It's a good place to stay away from, you could get hurt. We will learn about it on TV.


Last edited by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:34 pm

Syria was peaceful, stable, largely secular and religious minorities protected before the Islamists started kicking off.
.

Isis are the problem and America has been supporting them up till now



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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:35 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Donald Trump has indicated that he is not in favour of supporting the rebel groups in Syria, and that he'd rather concentrate on stopping ISIS.



https://www.rt.com/news/366647-trump-syria-isis-russia-relations/



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-president-elect-donald-trump-support-assad-putin-syria-remove-rebel-backing-a7413346.html

What say you? I think he has a point. Supporting the rebels with "training" or whatever isn't going to make much difference  IMO. It will merely prolong the war and possibly allow ISIS to make progress whilst everyone else is fighting everyone else. The US could end up clashing with Russia, which would be yet another distraction in the war against ISIS and other extremists.

Let them fight it out.  We shouldn't concern ourselves about hostilities half-a-world away, except as it offers a good show.  Let the New York Times, Associated Press and various news sources inform us, and stop sending our children over there.  

It's a good place to stay away from, you could get hurt.

So you were not in favour of Obama helping the rebels then?

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:38 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Let them fight it out.  We shouldn't concern ourselves about hostilities half-a-world away, except as it offers a good show.  Let the New York Times, Associated Press and various news sources inform us, and stop sending our children over there.  

It's a good place to stay away from, you could get hurt.

So you were not in favour of Obama helping the rebels then?

No, and I don't think he was either. It was an appeasement, made to quiet RW hawks.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:39 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Syria was peaceful, stable, largely secular and religious minorities protected before the Islamists started kicking off.

Isis are the problem and America has been supporting them up till now

Then we are in agreement. America shout remain passive and stay out.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:43 pm

I also pretty much agree that the US should stay out of it, but I don't think there's much chance of that really. ISIS are a threat generally, and of course Trump could concentrate all his efforts on keeping them out of the US, but that of course could lead to internal problems.

Syria could deal with ISIS if they have help, and the US's support of the rebels has just diluted any progress that has been made in making Syria more stable.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I also pretty much agree that the US should stay out of it, but I don't think there's much chance of that really. ISIS are a threat generally, and of course Trump could concentrate all his efforts on keeping them out of the US, but that of course could lead to internal problems.

Syria could deal with ISIS if they have help, and the US's support of the rebels has just diluted any progress that has been made in making Syria more stable.

ISIS is no threat to us.  They are half-way round the world, and have only pickup trucks and recreation vehicles with which to conduct a war.  They couldn't launch a rowboat, nor takeoff a Piper Tri-pacer.  All the noise is in the press, not at home.

I suspect that Americans will remain uninspired by Trump, and you can't build a military without soldiers.  He needs to let it go.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:05 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I also pretty much agree that the US should stay out of it, but I don't think there's much chance of that really. ISIS are a threat generally, and of course Trump could concentrate all his efforts on keeping them out of the US, but that of course could lead to internal problems.

Syria could deal with ISIS if they have help, and the US's support of the rebels has just diluted any progress that has been made in making Syria more stable.

ISIS is no threat to us.  They are half-way round the world, and have only pickup trucks and recreation vehicles with which to conduct a war.  They couldn't launch a rowboat, nor takeoff a Piper Tri-pacer.  All the noise is in the press, not at home.

I suspect that Americans will remain uninspired by Trump, and you can't build a military without soldiers.  He needs to let it go.

Well ISIS have lasted quite well so far, and they've managed to control whole populations quite successfully. If they're not stopped, it could get worse, especially if they get support from somewhere. Having said that, I'm not sure of the best way to stop them. If the US fight them, they'll infiltrate the US and carry out terrorist attacks. Let's not forget it's not just ISIS who are a threat generally. There are other Islamic groups who would like to be in charge in the Middle East. I totally agree with Trump about being careful who the US supports out there.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:08 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Syria was peaceful, stable, largely secular and religious minorities protected before the Islamists started kicking off.

Isis are the problem and America has been supporting them up till now

Then we are in agreement.  America shout remain passive and stay out.


Stop arming and supporting isis/rebels.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:12 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Then we are in agreement.  America shout remain passive and stay out.


Stop arming and supporting isis/rebels.

Well yes. Arming or "training" the rebels is a bit risky in the long term. Obama wanted to support "moderate" rebels, but how do you define "moderate"? Also, weapons could fall into the hands of those who are anti-American.


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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:18 pm

Are you all completely ignorant as well as being bloody mental?

Why do you think we have so many refugees?   You think ISIS are bombing them, do you thinking ISIS are dropping barrel bombs on them?

ISIS are terrible, cruel, rotten, mental, but they are killing a very small proportion of the civilians who are dying, they are maiming a very small percentage of the civilians who are losing limbs etc.   Who is burying children under rubble?   Who is gassing them?   Assad is!!!!!

Don't you ever listen or read anything!!!!!


http://www.ibtimes.com/syrian-civilian-death-toll-2016-isis-assad-regime-fuel-refugee-crisis-growing-war-2415265


The death toll from Syria's five-year civil war has reached 300,000 victims, devastating Syrian villages and cities and fueling a refugee crisis that has confounded political leaders in Europe and the Middle East. More than 86,000 civilians were among the 301,781 people killed in the conflict between the regime of President Bashar Assad and rebels seeking to overthrow him, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said this week. 
The new death toll represents an increase of about 9,000 people since the monitoring group released its previous count in August. Humanitarian groups sent 20 trucks filled with food, children's clothes and toys into northern Syria from the Turkish border town of Cilvegozu to try to provide some relief, Sky News reported Tuesday.
Of the nearly 5,000 deaths recorded in July, 1,289 were civilians, including 263 children and 191 women, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported. Hundreds of people were killed by airstrikes from Russian and Syrian warplanes, while 14 people were executed by the Islamic State group, which calls Syria and Iraq home. Other victims were killed by rebel groups, poor health conditions, booby trapped vehicles and various circumstances, such as "unidentified gunmen, explosions, landmines and sniper fire," the human rights group said. In all, Assad's violent regime has been linked to about 75 percent of the casualties since the war began in March 2011.





There really is no excuse for such utter ignorance. 

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:21 pm

Sassy, as long as the rebels are fighting the regime, and being supported by other countries, Assad will keep on fighting them back. He's not going to give in, and he has the backing of Russia. That's mainly what's causing the casualties IMO.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:39 pm

Why the hell do you think they started fighting him in the first place?  Because he was a lovely man who looked after the country.   He was and is a tyrant who imprisoned and tortured hundreds of thousands if they said a word against him.   FFS get a grip and teach yourself something.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:42 pm

sassy wrote:Why the hell do you think they started fighting him in the first place?  Because he was a lovely man who looked after the country.   He was and is a tyrant who imprisoned and tortured hundreds of thousands if they said a word against him.   FFS get a grip and teach yourself something.

Try to be civil please. This thread has been civil so far, and we don't need your histrionics and "know all" attitude.

So what do you propose? Assad is not going to be beaten with Russia on his side unless the US go right in there and blatantly attack him and his forces, and probably end up fighting the Russians as well. Piddling about supporting the rebels with "training" and/or weapons isn't going to cut it. Do you really think that's the answer?

Think back to what happened when the US backed the Mujahideen against the Soviets. Think about what happened after they dispatched Saddam Hussein.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:46 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

ISIS is no threat to us.  They are half-way round the world, and have only pickup trucks and recreation vehicles with which to conduct a war.  They couldn't launch a rowboat, nor takeoff a Piper Tri-pacer.  All the noise is in the press, not at home.

I suspect that Americans will remain uninspired by Trump, and you can't build a military without soldiers.  He needs to let it go.

Well ISIS have lasted quite well so far, and they've managed to control whole populations quite successfully. If they're not stopped, it could get worse, especially if they get support from somewhere.

Yes, it will be amusing to watch.  But it's not our problem.

Raggamuffin wrote: Having said that, I'm not sure of the best way to stop them. If the US fight them, they'll infiltrate the US and carry out terrorist attacks. Let's not forget it's not just ISIS who are a threat generally. There are other Islamic groups who would like to be in charge in the Middle East. I totally agree with Trump about being careful who the US supports out there.

Given the jealousy and resentment that the US attracts as the most powerful nation on earth, it would be counter-productive for us to become involved.  Syria is far, far away and doesn't concern us, anyway.

As far as infiltration of the US by terrorists, that is not a military problem.  Criminal acts are handled by our police forces, and they have done a marvelous job so far.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Then we are in agreement.  America shout remain passive and stay out.

Stop arming and supporting isis/rebels.

I know nothing about that. Take it to Mr. Trump. Twisted Evil

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:50 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well ISIS have lasted quite well so far, and they've managed to control whole populations quite successfully. If they're not stopped, it could get worse, especially if they get support from somewhere.

Yes, it will be amusing to watch.  But it's not our problem.

Raggamuffin wrote: Having said that, I'm not sure of the best way to stop them. If the US fight them, they'll infiltrate the US and carry out terrorist attacks. Let's not forget it's not just ISIS who are a threat generally. There are other Islamic groups who would like to be in charge in the Middle East. I totally agree with Trump about being careful who the US supports out there.

Given the jealousy and resentment that the US attracts as the most powerful nation on earth, it would be counter-productive for us to become involved.  Syria is far, far away and doesn't concern us, anyway.

As far as infiltration of the US by terrorists, that is not a military problem.  Criminal acts are handled by our police forces, and they have done a marvelous job so far.

Hmmm, they did a good job of taking out Farook and Malik - after they had killed several people and escaped, but they didn't do a good job in preventing 9/11. Let's hope your intelligence services are now up to the job of rooting out terrorists before they murder anyone.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:52 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:Why the hell do you think they started fighting him in the first place?  Because he was a lovely man who looked after the country.   He was and is a tyrant who imprisoned and tortured hundreds of thousands if they said a word against him.   FFS get a grip and teach yourself something.

Try to be civil please. This thread has been civil so far, and we don't need your histrionics and "know all" attitude.

So what do you propose? Assad is not going to be beaten with Russia on his side unless the US go right in there and blatantly attack him and his forces, and probably end up fighting the Russians as well. Piddling about supporting the rebels with "training" and/or weapons isn't going to cut it. Do you really think that's the answer?

Think back to what happened when the US backed the Mujahideen against the Soviets. Think about what happened after they dispatched Saddam Hussein.


My civility leaves me in the face of such pig ignorance.   Do you want every man, woman and child in Syria to become refugees?

Because if you back Assad, that is exactly what you will get.   ISIS are a terrible problem, Assad is, for the Syrians, as big problem, but destroying more of them.  Better minds that mine has wracked themselves for a way out and have failed, and the reason for that is the fact that you back Assad and the whole of Syria become refugess.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:53 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Stop arming and supporting isis/rebels.

Well yes. Arming or "training" the rebels is a bit risky in the long term. Obama wanted to support "moderate" rebels, but how do you define "moderate"? Also, weapons could fall into the hands of those who are anti-American.

Dr. Obama was also well convinced that Congress would not grant any funds to any program he proffered. He has had a Syrian war bill on Congress' desk for three years, and that would have to come first. Republicans have refused to even look at it.

So, we can't be sure what Dr. Obama wanted, because everything was simply idle chat. Well and good that it was...I think Dr. Obama agrees with me, just let sleeping dogs lie.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:54 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well ISIS have lasted quite well so far, and they've managed to control whole populations quite successfully. If they're not stopped, it could get worse, especially if they get support from somewhere.

Yes, it will be amusing to watch.  But it's not our problem.

Raggamuffin wrote: Having said that, I'm not sure of the best way to stop them. If the US fight them, they'll infiltrate the US and carry out terrorist attacks. Let's not forget it's not just ISIS who are a threat generally. There are other Islamic groups who would like to be in charge in the Middle East. I totally agree with Trump about being careful who the US supports out there.

Given the jealousy and resentment that the US attracts as the most powerful nation on earth, it would be counter-productive for us to become involved.  Syria is far, far away and doesn't concern us, anyway.

As far as infiltration of the US by terrorists, that is not a military problem.  Criminal acts are handled by our police forces, and they have done a marvelous job so far.


Quill, you are involved, up to your necks.   Saddam Hussein kept Assad under control.   You (and we) wiped out him out under false pretexts and you set it all off.   So don't go crying 'it's not our problem' now all those women and children are being decimated.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:59 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well yes. Arming or "training" the rebels is a bit risky in the long term. Obama wanted to support "moderate" rebels, but how do you define "moderate"? Also, weapons could fall into the hands of those who are anti-American.

Dr. Obama was also well convinced that Congress would not grant any funds to any program he proffered.  He has had a Syrian war bill on Congress' desk for three years, and that would have to come first.  Republicans have refused to even look at it.

So, we can't be sure what Dr. Obama wanted, because everything was simply idle chat.  Well and good that it was...I think Dr. Obama agrees with me, just let sleeping dogs lie.

Obama quite openly stated his support for the rebels. He must have known that training them wouldn't work of course, and after the Russians got involved, I daresay he didn't really know what to do any more.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:02 pm

sassy wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Yes, it will be amusing to watch.  But it's not our problem.



Given the jealousy and resentment that the US attracts as the most powerful nation on earth, it would be counter-productive for us to become involved.  Syria is far, far away and doesn't concern us, anyway.

As far as infiltration of the US by terrorists, that is not a military problem.  Criminal acts are handled by our police forces, and they have done a marvelous job so far.


Quill, you are involved, up to your necks.   Saddam Hussein kept Assad under control.   You (and we) wiped out him out under false pretexts and you set it all off.   So don't go crying 'it's not our problem' now all those women and children are being decimated.

So one tyrant keeps another under control? You were against the Iraq invasion, so what of the all the people that Saddam killed? Did they not matter?

Don't get me wrong - I was also opposed to the Iraq invasion.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:04 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Yes, it will be amusing to watch.  But it's not our problem.



Given the jealousy and resentment that the US attracts as the most powerful nation on earth, it would be counter-productive for us to become involved.  Syria is far, far away and doesn't concern us, anyway.

As far as infiltration of the US by terrorists, that is not a military problem.  Criminal acts are handled by our police forces, and they have done a marvelous job so far.

Hmmm, they did a good job of taking out Farook and Malik - after they had killed several people and escaped, but they didn't do a good job in preventing 9/11. Let's hope your intelligence services are now up to the job of rooting out terrorists before they murder anyone.

Those are internal problems. Yes, one hopes that the San Bernadino PD and NYPD are up to the task, just as one hopes that the London Police are up to the task.

But that is not Syria, and has no bearing on what Trump was saying about ISIS.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:07 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Hmmm, they did a good job of taking out Farook and Malik - after they had killed several people and escaped, but they didn't do a good job in preventing 9/11. Let's hope your intelligence services are now up to the job of rooting out terrorists before they murder anyone.

Those are internal problems.  Yes, one hopes that the San Bernadino PD and  NYPD are up to the task, just as one hopes that the London Police are up to the task.

But that is not Syria, and has no bearing on what Trump was saying about ISIS.

My point is that if the US does get more involved, that could attract terrorists to the US. That's one reason for them to keep out of the Syrian conflict obviously, but then again, they'd have to keep out of the Middle East generally, and that includes businesswise. That's not going to happen is it?

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:18 pm

sassy wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Yes, it will be amusing to watch.  But it's not our problem.



Given the jealousy and resentment that the US attracts as the most powerful nation on earth, it would be counter-productive for us to become involved.  Syria is far, far away and doesn't concern us, anyway.

As far as infiltration of the US by terrorists, that is not a military problem.  Criminal acts are handled by our police forces, and they have done a marvelous job so far.


Quill, you are involved, up to your necks.   Saddam Hussein kept Assad under control.   You (and we) wiped out him out under false pretexts and you set it all off.   So don't go crying 'it's not our problem' now all those women and children are being decimated.

That was a mistake, I agree, and it augers for just what I am saying: No more mistakes!  What could be more simple?

As you can see by the example of Mr. Trump, there are elements in our society that we on the left simply cannot control.  The Republicans, although they have been targets of the Trumpsters as well, have nevertheless long been carrying on a marriage of convenience with the the entire ideology of Trump and the Alt Right.  Take it up with them.

The most that we right-thinking Americans can do is passively lay down our rakes and shovels, and shut America down.  Why spend the next four years pussy-grabbing, or calling our generals rubble and our soldiers losers.  An effort in Trump's cause is an effort in further damage.  We come off a sixty year history of officious inter-meddling with other people's countries and cultures.  If we close the doors and shut America down, there can be no more of that.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:26 pm

Trump hasn't actually said that he wants the US to attack ISIS in Syria has he? He wants to withdraw support for the rebels (such as it is), and that would leave Assad and Russia to sort the rebels out, and also ISIS. Would there be any need for the US to join in?

Re the rebels, despite the assumption that they're trying to get rid of a tyrant, I still think it's risky to support them because they're so diverse and it's not very clear what their ultimate aim is. We've seen all this before in Afghanistan, for example.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:28 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Dr. Obama was also well convinced that Congress would not grant any funds to any program he proffered.  He has had a Syrian war bill on Congress' desk for three years, and that would have to come first.  Republicans have refused to even look at it.

So, we can't be sure what Dr. Obama wanted, because everything was simply idle chat.  Well and good that it was...I think Dr. Obama agrees with me, just let sleeping dogs lie.

Obama quite openly stated his support for the rebels. He must have known that training them wouldn't work of course, and after the Russians got involved, I daresay he didn't really know what to do any more.

Play chess, FGS!  You are missing how some of the chess pieces move.  Congress declares war, and Congress funds war bills.  Congress has been in Republican hands, and the most that Dr. Obama can do is hit the pitches they give him.

Forces have been on our side in that Dr. Obama personally does not want any war, and the Republican Congress has been unwilling to provide him with the means of conducting war.  How fortuitous!  To say that Obama doesn't know what to do, when luck has given him all he ever wanted, is to misunderstand the problem.  What you really mean is, Obama won't do what you want him to do.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:31 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Obama quite openly stated his support for the rebels. He must have known that training them wouldn't work of course, and after the Russians got involved, I daresay he didn't really know what to do any more.

Play chess, FGS!  You are missing how some of the chess pieces move.  Congress declares war, and Congress funds war bills.  Congress has been in Republican hands, and the most that Dr. Obama can do is hit the pitches they give him.

Forces have been on our side in that Dr. Obama personally does not want any war, and the Republican Congress has been unwilling to provide him with the means of conducting war.  How fortuitous.  To say that Obama doesn't know what to do, when luck has given him all he ever wanted, is to misunderstand the problem.  What you really mean is, Obama won't do what you want.

Didn't Obama ask Congress to fund training for the rebels? Why would he do that?

What I mean is that once the Russians got involved, a bit of "training" wasn't going to help, and he must have known that.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:42 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Those are internal problems.  Yes, one hopes that the San Bernadino PD and  NYPD are up to the task, just as one hopes that the London Police are up to the task.

But that is not Syria, and has no bearing on what Trump was saying about ISIS.

My point is that if the US does get more involved, that could attract terrorists to the US. That's one reason for them to keep out of the Syrian conflict obviously, but then again, they'd have to keep out of the Middle East generally, and that includes businesswise. That's not going to happen is it?

Actually, with a Donald Trump in command, it's a blessing in disguise. We need a little sleepiness of America in order to make Mr. Trump's administration a failure. Ironically, things that fortuitously go wrong, will serve the long-term interests of America.

Keeping out of the Middle East, businesswise, will do no long-term damage. The principal export of the Middle East is oil, and America has all the oil it needs. Oil that is being pumped out of the ground presently in the US and Canada, go to Europe and Asia for profits, not for local consumption. A little loss of business in the short-term (say four years) is just what the doctor ordered.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:51 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Trump hasn't actually said that he wants the US to attack ISIS in Syria has he? He wants to withdraw support for the rebels (such as it is), and that would leave Assad and Russia to sort the rebels out, and also ISIS. Would there be any need for the US to join in?

Re the rebels, despite the assumption that they're trying to get rid of a tyrant, I still think it's risky to support them because they're so diverse and it's not very clear what their ultimate aim is. We've seen all this before in Afghanistan, for example.

In 2013, Dr. Obama placed a war bill pertaining to Syria on Congress' desk. The Republican Congress has failed to act. That has left the war involvement of the US in the region precisely where he wants it...non-existent.

The instruction staff that is there now is on the regular payroll and is a part of the annual budget. If they weren't instructing Iraq's troops, they would be instructing at Ft. Bragg or Ft. Dix, or somewhere else in the US.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:56 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Play chess, FGS!  You are missing how some of the chess pieces move.  Congress declares war, and Congress funds war bills.  Congress has been in Republican hands, and the most that Dr. Obama can do is hit the pitches they give him.

Forces have been on our side in that Dr. Obama personally does not want any war, and the Republican Congress has been unwilling to provide him with the means of conducting war.  How fortuitous.  To say that Obama doesn't know what to do, when luck has given him all he ever wanted, is to misunderstand the problem.  What you really mean is, Obama won't do what you want.

Didn't Obama ask Congress to fund training for the rebels? Why would he do that?

What I mean is that once the Russians got involved, a bit of "training" wasn't going to help, and he must have known that.

Dr. Obama has asked for nothing in regard to Syria.  Personally, I question the legality of his acting in Syria with out a declaration of war.  As a former professor of Constitutional Law, I'm sure Dr. Obama knows whereof I speak.

Dr. Obama has authorized the deployment of some 2-300 troops as training staff for the Iraqi troops.  The Iraqi troops then have deployed to Syria.  I wish them luck, though it's none of my business.


Last edited by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:57 pm

sassy wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Yes, it will be amusing to watch.  But it's not our problem.



Given the jealousy and resentment that the US attracts as the most powerful nation on earth, it would be counter-productive for us to become involved.  Syria is far, far away and doesn't concern us, anyway.

As far as infiltration of the US by terrorists, that is not a military problem.  Criminal acts are handled by our police forces, and they have done a marvelous job so far.


Quill, you are involved, up to your necks.   Saddam Hussein kept Assad under control.   You (and we) wiped out him out under false pretexts and you set it all off.   So don't go crying 'it's not our problem' now all those women and children are being decimated.


No... Saddam hussein kept the Islamists under control and ensured what was largely peace and stability, and protection for religious minorities and largely secularism...



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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:58 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Trump hasn't actually said that he wants the US to attack ISIS in Syria has he? He wants to withdraw support for the rebels (such as it is), and that would leave Assad and Russia to sort the rebels out, and also ISIS. Would there be any need for the US to join in?

Re the rebels, despite the assumption that they're trying to get rid of a tyrant, I still think it's risky to support them because they're so diverse and it's not very clear what their ultimate aim is. We've seen all this before in Afghanistan, for example.

In 2013, Dr. Obama placed a war bill pertaining to Syria on Congress' desk.  The Republican Congress has failed to act.  That has left the war involvement of the US in the region precisely where he wants it...non-existent.

The instruction staff that is there now is on the regular payroll and is a part of the annual budget.  If they weren't instructing Iraq's troops, they would be instructing at Ft. Bragg or Ft. Dix, or somewhere else in the US.

I don't really understand why Obama would have played games with Congress, but the issue isn't really whether or not the US attacks Assad, it's whether it continues to support the rebels in any way. It's not clear to me how much the support of the US has helped the rebels, but surely withdrawing support would end the conflict faster, one way or another.

Do you consider that the election of Trump rather than Clinton is beneficial when it comes to the issue of Syria?

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:59 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Stop arming and supporting isis/rebels.

Well yes. Arming or "training" the rebels is a bit risky in the long term. Obama wanted to support "moderate" rebels, but how do you define "moderate"? Also, weapons could fall into the hands of those who are anti-American.



All true... isis and the so called moderate rebels are indistinguishable from each other...

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:01 pm

sassy wrote:Are you all completely ignorant as well as being bloody mental?

Why do you think we have so many refugees?   You think ISIS are bombing them, do you thinking ISIS are dropping barrel bombs on them?

ISIS are terrible, cruel, rotten, mental, but they are killing a very small proportion of the civilians who are dying, they are maiming a very small percentage of the civilians who are losing limbs etc.   Who is burying children under rubble?   Who is gassing them?   Assad is!!!!!

Don't you ever listen or read anything!!!!!


http://www.ibtimes.com/syrian-civilian-death-toll-2016-isis-assad-regime-fuel-refugee-crisis-growing-war-2415265


The death toll from Syria's five-year civil war has reached 300,000 victims, devastating Syrian villages and cities and fueling a refugee crisis that has confounded political leaders in Europe and the Middle East. More than 86,000 civilians were among the 301,781 people killed in the conflict between the regime of President Bashar Assad and rebels seeking to overthrow him, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said this week. 
The new death toll represents an increase of about 9,000 people since the monitoring group released its previous count in August. Humanitarian groups sent 20 trucks filled with food, children's clothes and toys into northern Syria from the Turkish border town of Cilvegozu to try to provide some relief, Sky News reported Tuesday.
Of the nearly 5,000 deaths recorded in July, 1,289 were civilians, including 263 children and 191 women, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported. Hundreds of people were killed by airstrikes from Russian and Syrian warplanes, while 14 people were executed by the Islamic State group, which calls Syria and Iraq home. Other victims were killed by rebel groups, poor health conditions, booby trapped vehicles and various circumstances, such as "unidentified gunmen, explosions, landmines and sniper fire," the human rights group said. In all, Assad's violent regime has been linked to about 75 percent of the casualties since the war began in March 2011.





There really is no excuse for such utter ignorance. 


Actually sassy... the isis/rebels are launching mortars and bombs and chlorine gas weapons indiscriminately on to the people on the other side of Aleppo...

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:07 pm

sassy wrote:Why the hell do you think they started fighting him in the first place?  Because he was a lovely man who looked after the country.   He was and is a tyrant who imprisoned and tortured hundreds of thousands if they said a word against him.   FFS get a grip and teach yourself something.


The Islamists started kicking off... and trying to take over... remember the 'Arab spring'...?


Assad ensured peace and stability and secularism with protection for religious minorities!


Islamists want islam, islam and more islam and other religious minorities to convert to islam or be persecuted into paying extortion protection money tax or be murdered!


Did you not see the top gear middle east episode where they were driving around in Assad's Syria...?


Looked very free and peaceful and stable back then...



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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:07 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

In 2013, Dr. Obama placed a war bill pertaining to Syria on Congress' desk.  The Republican Congress has failed to act.  That has left the war involvement of the US in the region precisely where he wants it...non-existent.

The instruction staff that is there now is on the regular payroll and is a part of the annual budget.  If they weren't instructing Iraq's troops, they would be instructing at Ft. Bragg or Ft. Dix, or somewhere else in the US.

I don't really understand why Obama would have played games with Congress, but the issue isn't really whether or not the US attacks Assad, it's whether it continues to support the rebels in any way. It's not clear to me how much the support of the US has helped the rebels, but surely withdrawing support would end the conflict faster, one way or another.

There are no games with Congress.  Dr. Obama placed a war bill pertaining to Syria on the desk of the Republican Congress in 2013.  Since then the ball has been in Congress' court, and it has done nothing.

America is not involved in the Iraqi Army's push into Northern Iraq.  It has provided instructors, that's all.  

I know of no support for rebels in Syria.  I doubt Congress is speaking to the White House, so that's improbable.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:09 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Try to be civil please. This thread has been civil so far, and we don't need your histrionics and "know all" attitude.

So what do you propose? Assad is not going to be beaten with Russia on his side unless the US go right in there and blatantly attack him and his forces, and probably end up fighting the Russians as well. Piddling about supporting the rebels with "training" and/or weapons isn't going to cut it. Do you really think that's the answer?

Think back to what happened when the US backed the Mujahideen against the Soviets. Think about what happened after they dispatched Saddam Hussein.


My civility leaves me in the face of such pig ignorance.   Do you want every man, woman and child in Syria to become refugees?

Because if you back Assad, that is exactly what you will get.   ISIS are a terrible problem, Assad is, for the Syrians, as big problem, but destroying more of them.  Better minds that mine has wracked themselves for a way out and have failed, and the reason for that is the fact that you back Assad and the whole of Syria become refugess.


You talk absolute nonsense!!!


Assad is hugely popular among his vast number of supporters!


Isis/rebels are the problem!!!



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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:13 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't really understand why Obama would have played games with Congress, but the issue isn't really whether or not the US attacks Assad, it's whether it continues to support the rebels in any way. It's not clear to me how much the support of the US has helped the rebels, but surely withdrawing support would end the conflict faster, one way or another.

There are no games with Congress.  Dr. Obama placed a war bill pertaining to Syria on the desk of the Republican Congress in 2013.  Since then the ball has been in Congress' court, and it has done nothing.

America is not involved in the Iraqi Army's push into Northern Iraq.  It has provided instructors, that's all.  

I know of no support for rebels in Syria.  I doubt Congress is speaking to the White House, so that's improbable.

So now you're saying that Obama did want to attack Assad and support the rebels. That's not what you said before.

Anyway, I'm talking about Trump, and he seems to think the US has been supporting the rebels.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:13 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Do you consider that the election of Trump rather than Clinton is beneficial when it comes to the issue of Syria?

There is no issue of Syria. If Trump tries to make one, he will find himself sorely lacking in readiness and funding. He lacks "loser" soldiers, and with "rabble" generals, he is not likely to recruit very well.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:15 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

There are no games with Congress.  Dr. Obama placed a war bill pertaining to Syria on the desk of the Republican Congress in 2013.  Since then the ball has been in Congress' court, and it has done nothing.

America is not involved in the Iraqi Army's push into Northern Iraq.  It has provided instructors, that's all.  

I know of no support for rebels in Syria.  I doubt Congress is speaking to the White House, so that's improbable.

So now you're saying that Obama did want to attack Assad and support the rebels. That's not what you said before.

Anyway, I'm talking about Trump, and he seems to think the US has been supporting the rebels.


So did Cameron I think... wasn't that put to parliament and voted down?

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Do you consider that the election of Trump rather than Clinton is beneficial when it comes to the issue of Syria?

There is no issue of Syria.  If Trump tries to make one, he will find himself sorely lacking in readiness and funding.  He lacks "loser" soldiers, and with "rabble" generals, he is not likely to recruit very well.

I think you'll find it would have been very much an issue if Hillary Clinton had been elected.


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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:19 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

There are no games with Congress.  Dr. Obama placed a war bill pertaining to Syria on the desk of the Republican Congress in 2013.  Since then the ball has been in Congress' court, and it has done nothing.

America is not involved in the Iraqi Army's push into Northern Iraq.  It has provided instructors, that's all.  

I know of no support for rebels in Syria.  I doubt Congress is speaking to the White House, so that's improbable.

So now you're saying that Obama did want to attack Assad and support the rebels. That's not what you said before.

Dr. Obama is forbidden by law from any conflict with Assad. Congress has never passed a war bill pertaining to Syria. I don't know where you are getting your information, or what you are talking about.

Raggamuffin wrote:Anyway, I'm talking about Trump, and he seems to think the US has been supporting the rebels.

I could not begin to fathom the thought processes of Donald Trump. From week-to-week, day-to-day, he seems to say contradictory and inane things. I doubt he knows anything about the situation, nor is he a quick learner.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:20 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

There is no issue of Syria.  If Trump tries to make one, he will find himself sorely lacking in readiness and funding.  He lacks "loser" soldiers, and with "rabble" generals, he is not likely to recruit very well.

I think you'll find it would have been very much an issue if Hillary Clinton had been elected.

what Hillary would have done is of no consequence now.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:21 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So now you're saying that Obama did want to attack Assad and support the rebels. That's not what you said before.

Anyway, I'm talking about Trump, and he seems to think the US has been supporting the rebels.


So did Cameron I think... wasn't that put to parliament and voted down?

I don't know. He wanted airstrikes against ISIS and Parliament supported that.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:23 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I think you'll find it would have been very much an issue if Hillary Clinton had been elected.

what Hillary would have done is of no consequence now.

OK, although you didn't answer the question. It's been nice chatting to you, but I think we're done now.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:26 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


So did Cameron I think... wasn't that put to parliament and voted down?

I don't know. He wanted airstrikes against ISIS and Parliament supported that.

Dr. Obama has been periodically bombing the Syrian forces too, its true. He justifies it constitutionally as ancillary to his war authority in Iraq. I think that's questionable, but in any event, I don't think he is enthusiastic about it. He is doing the minimum necessary to appease the war hawks in this country.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:27 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

what Hillary would have done is of no consequence now.

OK, although you didn't answer the question.  It's been nice chatting to you, but I think we're done now.

There was no question. It was an exchange of statements.

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Re: Donald Trump and Syria

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:38 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


So did Cameron I think... wasn't that put to parliament and voted down?

I don't know. He wanted airstrikes against ISIS and Parliament supported that.

Lost vote for action against assad... in 2013...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783


Then won vote in Dec 2015 for air strikes against isis in Syria... although I don't think there has been that many of them so far...


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/dec/02/syria-airstrikes-mps-debate-vote-cameron-action-against-isis-live

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