Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

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Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

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Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Angry Andy on Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 pm

Simple question

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:00 pm

Simple answer

National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), more commonly known as Nazism (/ˈnɑːtsɪzəm, ˈnæ-/), is the ideology and practice associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party and Nazi state, as well as other far-right groups. Usually characterized as a form of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism.

The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both international socialism and free market capitalism. Nazism rejects the Marxist concept of class struggle.


But of course if the Encyclopedia Britannica and Wikipedia are not authoritive enough we can always take the word of halfwits in bedrooms producing alt-right blogs. Laughing


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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Angry Andy on Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:01 pm

Busy over a keyboard produces a lot more than alt-right blogs in Tom's case. Sticky keys and a smeared screen

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:04 pm

Handy Andy wrote:Busy over a keyboard produces a lot more than alt-right blogs in Tom's case. Sticky keys and a smeared screen

Now, now - stay with the issue, not the poster.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Angry Andy on Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:05 pm

Ziz wrote:
Handy Andy wrote:Busy over a keyboard produces a lot more than alt-right blogs in Tom's case. Sticky keys and a smeared screen

Now, now - stay with the issue, not the poster.
Or the tissue!

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Eilzel on Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:16 pm

Yeah, since National Socialism never really worked in the interest of the common man but the 'state' it was never socialism in any real sense (though neither was the Soviet Union really). The disingenuous Right like to gloss over this, focusing their argument purely on the fact the word 'Socialism' exists in the full meaning of Nazism.

Of course, they do not make the same argument for the Democratic Republic of Korea being democratic...

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by *THE Ben Reilly* on Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:51 pm

The Nazis had too many far-right characteristics to not be classed as a far-right party, though they (like every other real group) can't be neatly shoehorned into any "pure" ideology (much to the chagrin of far-right conservatives who have to oversimplify the world in order to "understand" it).

There were a few Nazis, for example, who hated capitalism -- but when you look into why, it was mainly because they perceived capitalism to be a system dominated by Jews, not because of inequality or exploitation present in capitalism.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Angry Andy on Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:33 pm

Looks like Tom voted far right!! lol!

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by eddie on Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:02 pm

I was having this debate with my son the other night funnily enough. He was having this same debate in his history class and the whole class came to the conclusion that the very far right was very close to the very far left....he made a pretty convincing argument.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:32 pm

If you consider for a moment that the Nazis and Mussolinis fascists were of the far left... then what examples have you got of any far right...?


Given that left is big state and big state control and state ownership and control over infrastructure and businesses and authoritarian... and right is small state and small state control and minimal state ownership of infrastructure and minimal controls on businesses and meddling as little as possible in people's everyday lives...


You can quickly see that moving further left becomes a heavily authoritarian dictatorship... while moving further right means even less govt and less state control and further away from authoritarian dictatorship!!!




Use your common sense!!!

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:49 pm

Eilzel wrote:Yeah, since National Socialism never really worked in the interest of the common man but the 'state' it was never socialism in any real sense (though neither was the Soviet Union really). The disingenuous Right like to gloss over this, focusing their argument purely on the fact the word 'Socialism' exists in the full meaning of Nazism.

Of course, they do not make the same argument for the Democratic Republic of Korea being democratic...


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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Eilzel on Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:57 pm

eddie wrote:I was having this debate with my son the other night funnily enough. He was having this same debate in his history class  and the whole class came to the conclusion that the very far right was very close to the very far left....he made a pretty convincing argument.

He is partly right in one aspect. Both extremes usually result in totalitarian regimes that suppress opposition and freedoms. This imo is an inevitable result of trying to enforce a political and economic system that most people would oppose.

But in terms of ultimate agendas they are very different.

Fascism intends for all things to serve the state/nation. People's personal interests, and equality, are relegated in favour of the overall interests of the state as dictated by the regime. In theory, wealthy businessmen and a large wealth gap are not contradictions in fascist/nazism.

Socialism intends for all people to at least have equality in terms of opportunity if not equality in living standards. The states role is to ensure all things work to serve the people, hence nationalisation is popular among socialists. People getting ultra rich while there is a massive gap in terms of wealth and opportunities is a major contradiction if a country is socialist.

As a note, nationalisation may be popular among some extreme RWers though in a Nazi regime the purpose of this would be to serve the machinations of the state rather than the people. In the case of Nazi Germany, that included the war machine.

So while there can be similarities they are not defining.

And tommy, the definition of Fascism, Communism, Socialism etc is NOT big state vs small state. The fact the famous of all three were big state dictatorships in not to do with being socialist. Indeed, if you ever bothered to read Marx you'd know hos ideal of Communism/socialism was to ultimately have no traditional 'government' at all.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by eddie on Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:10 pm

Good post Les. I wasn't entirely convinced but I was impressed with his thought process!

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:49 pm



Still doesn't address the rest of my points...


Left is also about state controlling means of production...


Right is about free market trading...



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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Angry Andy on Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:53 pm

8-0 after a couple of hours Tom.
So far, fairly convincing.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Jules on Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:07 pm

Handy Andy wrote:Simple question
No brainer!
Nazism has always been synonymous with the far right.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Jules on Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:12 pm

There's a concerted drive on the right to retaliate with the same accusations that the left make, using the same words and descriptions.

Suddenly the people who made accusations of sexism were told that they were the sexist ones.
Those who made accusations of bigotry/racism were told they were the bigoted/racist ones
Those who accused others of misogyny were told they were the ones who hated the opposite sex.
People who accused nazis of nazism were told they were the nazis.


Anyone spotted the theme yet????

Boomeranging insults back at people is lazy, facile, simple-minded thinking.
It's blatant tit-for-tattery that involves no mental effort.
Nice try.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:50 pm



What was right wing about the Nazis and/or fascism?


Do you really think Mussolini went from a communist party member and supporter to anything other than another brand/type of left wing politics...?


The Nazis were all about state ownership and state control of industry/goods/production... even though they left many businesses in private ownership, they were in total control of the means of production and even prices!


How is any of that right wing/small state/small state control/small regulation/free market capitalism...?



Just because there was a nasty side of Nazism and fascism and it isn't what you lefties want to think of as in any way left wing/far left or a branch of socialism... Doesn't mean it is in any way right wing either!!!



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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:50 pm

Jules wrote:There's a concerted drive on the right to retaliate with the same accusations that the left make, using the same words and descriptions.

Suddenly the people who made accusations of sexism were told that they were the sexist ones.
Those who made accusations of bigotry/racism were told they were the bigoted/racist ones
Those who accused others of misogyny were told they were the ones who hated the opposite sex.
People who accused nazis of nazism were told they were the nazis.

Anyone spotted the theme yet????

Boomeranging insults back at people is lazy, facile, simple-minded thinking.
It's blatant tit-for-tattery that involves no mental effort.
Nice try.

Yes, we've been discussing this for a matter of years now, actually.  It's called the 'mirror-image' form of argument.  Sometimes it's referred to as the reciprocal argument.

All argument (thinking, really, if you believe cognitive linguists) goes by way of metaphor.  See, George Lakoff and Mark Johnson, Metaphors We Live By (1980).  The idea is that we extrapolate the logical import of an idea, and inject it into a different debate.  I call it metaphor-stealing.

In a mirror-image argument, the debater takes the exact opposite view on something, and works the structure of the metaphor into an argument in exact reverse.  This would be valid if the whole metaphor were embraced, but most of the time what is taken is the form, with the inconvenient entailments being discarded.

We see this in the term 'racism'.  Racism is a cultural phenomenon and requires a history not only to incubate, but to actually have meaning.  But, we see RW'rs crying out about white racism, where there has been nothing but privilege and wealth associated with the white race.  In this we see that the disputant has extrapolated the form of the immediate dialectic--one race presuming superiority over another--without the full history that gives it meaning.  Americans understand this example, particularly because they have lived the 2-300 years of slavery cum racism, while Europeans see only the math and structure of it.

We see the same metaphor-stealing in issues of socialism vs. capitalism, austerity vs. social programs, and millions of other political debates.  Mostly, it goes from left to right, because most original thinking takes place on the left and is borrowed by the right.  That is due to the fact that RW'rs are not committed to problem-solving in politics, while LW'rs are continually working at the edges in order to make life better for all....but that's another (related) point.


Last edited by Original Quill on Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:52 pm

Jules wrote:
Handy Andy wrote:Simple question
No brainer!
Nazism has always been synonymous with the far right.


No... Nazism has for a few decades been misrepresented as far right... but at the time nobody was in any doubt it was left wing and socialist rooted...



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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:58 pm



I'm not going to copy and paste a wall of stuff here... but please read these links...



http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/03/13/leftists_become_incandescent_when_reminded_of_the_socialist_roots_in_nazism_121913.html


https://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/hitler-was-a-socialist/


https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian


https://mises.org/library/nazism-socialism


https://evilproggies.wordpress.com/tag/dan-hannan/

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:01 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Jules wrote:
No brainer!
Nazism has always been synonymous with the far right.


No... Nazism has for a few decades been misrepresented as far right... but at the time nobody was in any doubt it was left wing and socialist rooted...


Sure they were.  Read, Herbert Marcuse, Technology, War and Fascism: Collected Papers of Herbert Marcuse  (compiled, 1998).  It's available in pdf, here:

http://www.heathwoodpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/herbert-marcuse-technology-war-and-fascism-collected-papers-vol-1.pdf

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:07 pm

Eilzel wrote:Yeah, since National Socialism never really worked in the interest of the common man but the 'state' it was never socialism in any real sense (though neither was the Soviet Union really). The disingenuous Right like to gloss over this, focusing their argument purely on the fact the word 'Socialism' exists in the full meaning of Nazism.

Of course, they do not make the same argument for the Democratic Republic of Korea being democratic...


The question was left or right... and nobody can deny communism is left... plenty of communist card carriers in the labour party...


Socialism is different but also still left...


Nationalist socialism or state socialism is different again... but still left...


Saddam hussein and his baath party... socialists and left...


South American dictatorial regimes... left...


I'm fact... if you pick any brutal authoritarian dictatorial regime... you will find they are socialist/left!!!



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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:29 pm

George Orwell shed some insight on this in "The Lion and the Unicorn" (1940):

George Orwell wrote:"What then is Fascism?

Fascism, at any rate the German version, is a form of capitalism that borrows from Socialism just such features as will make it efficient for war purposes. Internally, Germany has a good deal in common with a Socialist state. Ownership has never been abolished, there are still capitalists and workers, and - this is the important point, and the real reason why rich men all over the world tend to sympathize with Fascism - generally speaking the same people are capitalists and the same people workers as before the Nazi revolution. But at the same time the State, which is simply the Nazi Party, is in control of everything. It controls investment, raw materials, rates of interest, working hours, wages. The factory owner still owns his factory, but he is for practical purposes reduced to the status of a manager. Everyone is in effect a State employee, though the salaries vary very greatly. The mere efficiency of such a system, the elimination of waste and obstruction, is obvious. In seven years it has built up the most powerful war machine the world has ever seen.

But the idea underlying Fascism is irreconcilably different from that which underlies Socialism. Socialism aims, ultimately, at a world-state of free and equal human beings. It takes the equality of human rights for granted. Nazism assumes just the opposite. The driving force behind the Nazi movement is the belief in human inequality, the superiority of Germans to all other races, the right of Germany to rule the world. Outside the German Reich it does not recognize any obligations. Eminent Nazi professors have ‘proved’ over and over again that only nordic man is fully human, have even mooted the idea that non-nordic peoples (such as ourselves) can interbreed with gorillas! Therefore, while a species of war-Socialism exists within the German state, its attitude towards conquered nations is frankly that of an exploiter. The function of the Czechs, Poles, French, etc. is simply to produce such goods as Germany may need, and get in return just as little as will keep them from open rebellion. If we are conquered, our job will probably be to manufacture weapons for Hitler’s forthcoming wars with Russia and America. The Nazis aim, in effect, at setting up a kind of caste system, with four main castes corresponding rather closely to those of the Hindu religion. At the top comes the Nazi party, second come the mass of the German people, third come the conquered European populations. Fourth and last are to come the coloured peoples, the ‘semi-apes’ as Hitler calls them, who are to be reduced quite openly to slavery".

While socialism is ultimately a humanist philosophy, Nazism was a nationalist system, primarily aimed at xenophobic beliefs all leading to inequity and inequality.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Jules on Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:43 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Jules wrote:There's a concerted drive on the right to retaliate with the same accusations that the left make, using the same words and descriptions.

Suddenly the people who made accusations of sexism were told that they were the sexist ones.
Those who made accusations of bigotry/racism were told they were the bigoted/racist ones
Those who accused others of misogyny were told they were the ones who hated the opposite sex.
People who accused nazis of nazism were told they were the nazis.

Anyone spotted the theme yet????

Boomeranging insults back at people is lazy, facile, simple-minded thinking.
It's blatant tit-for-tattery that involves no mental effort.
Nice try.

Yes, we've been discussing this for a matter of years now, actually.  It's called the 'mirror-image' form of argument.  Sometimes it's referred to as the reciprocal argument.

All argument (thinking, really, if you believe cognitive linguists) goes by way of metaphor.  See, George Lakoff and Mark Johnson, Metaphors We Live By (1980).  The idea is that we extrapolate the logical import of an idea, and inject it into a different debate.  I call it metaphor-stealing.

In a mirror-image argument, the debater takes the exact opposite view on something, and works the structure of the metaphor into an argument in exact reverse.  This would be valid if the whole metaphor were embraced, but most of the time what is taken is the form, with the inconvenient entailments being discarded.

We see this in the term 'racism'.  Racism is a cultural phenomenon and requires a history not only to incubate, but to actually have meaning.  But, we see RW'rs crying out about white racism, where there has been nothing but privilege and wealth associated with the white race.  In this we see that the disputant has extrapolated the form of the immediate dialectic--one race presuming superiority over another--without the full history that gives it meaning.  Americans understand this example, particularly because they have lived the 2-300 years of slavery cum racism, while Europeans see only the math and structure of it.

We see the same metaphor-stealing in issues of socialism vs. capitalism, austerity vs. social programs, and millions of other political debates.  Mostly, it goes from left to right, because most original thinking takes place on the left and is borrowed by the right.  That is due to the fact that RW'rs are not committed to problem-solving in politics, while LW'rs are continually working at the edges in order to make life better for all....but that's another (related) point.

Thank you, Quill. x
I appreciate the time and effort you've put into explaining all this, to me.
And I rather like the expressions ''metaphor stealing, and mirror imaging". Succint descriptions, not come across them before!

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:55 pm

Jules wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Yes, we've been discussing this for a matter of years now, actually.  It's called the 'mirror-image' form of argument.  Sometimes it's referred to as the reciprocal argument.

All argument (thinking, really, if you believe cognitive linguists) goes by way of metaphor.  See, George Lakoff and Mark Johnson, Metaphors We Live By (1980).  The idea is that we extrapolate the logical import of an idea, and inject it into a different debate.  I call it metaphor-stealing.

In a mirror-image argument, the debater takes the exact opposite view on something, and works the structure of the metaphor into an argument in exact reverse.  This would be valid if the whole metaphor were embraced, but most of the time what is taken is the form, with the inconvenient entailments being discarded.

We see this in the term 'racism'.  Racism is a cultural phenomenon and requires a history not only to incubate, but to actually have meaning.  But, we see RW'rs crying out about white racism, where there has been nothing but privilege and wealth associated with the white race.  In this we see that the disputant has extrapolated the form of the immediate dialectic--one race presuming superiority over another--without the full history that gives it meaning.  Americans understand this example, particularly because they have lived the 2-300 years of slavery cum racism, while Europeans see only the math and structure of it.

We see the same metaphor-stealing in issues of socialism vs. capitalism, austerity vs. social programs, and millions of other political debates.  Mostly, it goes from left to right, because most original thinking takes place on the left and is borrowed by the right.  That is due to the fact that RW'rs are not committed to problem-solving in politics, while LW'rs are continually working at the edges in order to make life better for all....but that's another (related) point.

Thank you, Quill. x
I appreciate the time and effort you've put into explaining all this, to me.
And I rather like the expressions ''metaphor stealing, and mirror imaging". Succint descriptions, not come across them before!

For the record (haha...and copyright purposes), they are my terms coined in my book, Why Elephants Lie. Frankly, I use them frequently on the Internet because it dates them, and establishes priority for me.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by eddie on Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:01 pm

"Metaphor-stealing" is a good one....

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:15 pm

eddie wrote:"Metaphor-stealing" is a good one....

Certain cognitive linguists argue that all ideological transition takes place by metaphor.  The structure of a metaphor conveys more that the denotative 'word', and conveys a number of what Lakoff and Johnson call 'entailments'.  However, in order to be valid a metaphor must transition with the same import as the original.  In other words, you can't twist the logic.

What 'metaphor-stealers' do is violate the entialments and reverse the meaning.  I think that is part of the barb of what they are doing...ha-ha, I can co-opt your term and use it against you!

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by eddie on Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:38 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:"Metaphor-stealing" is a good one....

Certain cognitive linguists argue that all ideological transition takes place by metaphor.  The structure of a metaphor conveys more that the denotative 'word', and conveys a number of what Lakoff and Johnson call 'entailments'.  However, in order to be valid a metaphor must transition with the same import as the original.  In other words, you can't twist the logic.

What 'metaphor-stealers' do is violate the entialments and reverse the meaning.  I think that is part of the barb of what they are doing...ha-ha, I can co-opt your term and use it against you!

Yeah I get it. You're in fine fettle today Quill.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Lord Foul on Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:49 pm

The nazi movement entrained the idea of national socialism, but in fact violated what MUST, if you interpret the concept correctl, its prime tenets

national socilaism
or socialistic nationalism?

is there perhaps a difference


however lets look at what, it seems to me must be the prime tenets of national socialism

firstly it HAS to be , by any stretch of the imagination, basically socilaist in nature
therefore it must have as its central core a strong sence of social justice and equity

It must ensure all are treated with the same respect and decency, and have the same oppertunities.
It must however also abandon the ridiculous notion that unqualified help is available to anyone without question (unless we take the path offered by a "universal credit")

Being also nationalist in approach it must however extend this largesse ONLY to those who are citizens of that nation....untill such time as its own citizens are assured of the basic necessities of life and that there are sufficient funds to ensure that this status is maintainable in the forseeable future.
that said

at the moment of its founding such a national socialist state must, in all fairness and in accordance with its socialistic part consider all those who are resident here, illegally or as an immigrant or refugee as citizens with full right. It may then consider the matter closed and any one else AFTER that time need not be considered a citizen, andd thus not able to avail themselves of social help etc (though due provision MUST be provided for example as regards security of person, representation at law etc)

It must abandon the pseudo liberal act as espoused by the current "left" whereby there is only "supposed" individual freedom, where only the things approved of by the lefty hive mind are actually allowed.

It must also abandon the current left wing thinking of intruding its tentacles into every aspect of the citizens life, and basically "mind its own business", taking action ONLY where the "reasonable" law is broken.

in its purest form national socilism would put ITS OWN citizens....regardless of colour or creed, regardless of sexuality or gender....FIRST
It would have a strong and effective defence policy...but would refrain from interfering in other nations affairs, realising that no matter HOW bad another nations leadership may appear, it is the perogative ONLY of that nations people to take action...

It would also ensure that it does NOT become beholden to other nations in some underhand attempt to overide its own national sovereignty.

OUR OWN FIRST.......then others as we can so manage to help.....



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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by eddie on Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:06 pm

Picking up on your very last statement Vic "Our own first" - isn't that just kind of stupid? The very countries we are helping. cannot help "their own first"....isn't that the point in us, helping them?
Or have I got that totally tits up?

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Lord Foul on Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:15 pm

That, as the saying goes ...is their problem. VERY few of these "poor countries" are inherently "poor"

we must sort our own issues out first THEN we can help others...

how much use will we be to others if we wreck ourselves with giveaways ...ignoring our own destitute?

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Lord Foul on Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:17 pm

Life is NOT, contrary to the euro leftist POV, a race to the bottom......

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by eddie on Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:17 pm

So you'd leave starving children to die?

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Lord Foul on Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:29 pm

we dont...within reason...we provide millions in foreign aid...if that doesnt go where it should who's fault is that....

I'm not suggesting we stop foreign aid BTW......except to places that dont need it...like india and china....

but rather that we stop taking into the fold as it were, every tom dick and harry that turns up bangin on the door with a sob story....

(I'm feeling benevolent tonight...any other time I might be tempted to say "not my tribe")

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by eddie on Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:46 pm

Thanks for being benevolent. I'm sure the starving kids are thankful too. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:George Orwell shed some insight on this in "The Lion and the Unicorn" (1940):

George Orwell wrote:"What then is Fascism?

Fascism, at any rate the German version, is a form of capitalism that borrows from Socialism just such features as will make it efficient for war purposes. Internally, Germany has a good deal in common with a Socialist state. Ownership has never been abolished, there are still capitalists and workers, and - this is the important point, and the real reason why rich men all over the world tend to sympathize with Fascism - generally speaking the same people are capitalists and the same people workers as before the Nazi revolution. But at the same time the State, which is simply the Nazi Party, is in control of everything. It controls investment, raw materials, rates of interest, working hours, wages. The factory owner still owns his factory, but he is for practical purposes reduced to the status of a manager. Everyone is in effect a State employee, though the salaries vary very greatly. The mere efficiency of such a system, the elimination of waste and obstruction, is obvious. In seven years it has built up the most powerful war machine the world has ever seen.

But the idea underlying Fascism is irreconcilably different from that which underlies Socialism. Socialism aims, ultimately, at a world-state of free and equal human beings. It takes the equality of human rights for granted. Nazism assumes just the opposite. The driving force behind the Nazi movement is the belief in human inequality, the superiority of Germans to all other races, the right of Germany to rule the world. Outside the German Reich it does not recognize any obligations. Eminent Nazi professors have ‘proved’ over and over again that only nordic man is fully human, have even mooted the idea that non-nordic peoples (such as ourselves) can interbreed with gorillas! Therefore, while a species of war-Socialism exists within the German state, its attitude towards conquered nations is frankly that of an exploiter. The function of the Czechs, Poles, French, etc. is simply to produce such goods as Germany may need, and get in return just as little as will keep them from open rebellion. If we are conquered, our job will probably be to manufacture weapons for Hitler’s forthcoming wars with Russia and America. The Nazis aim, in effect, at setting up a kind of caste system, with four main castes corresponding rather closely to those of the Hindu religion. At the top comes the Nazi party, second come the mass of the German people, third come the conquered European populations. Fourth and last are to come the coloured peoples, the ‘semi-apes’ as Hitler calls them, who are to be reduced quite openly to slavery".

While socialism is ultimately a humanist philosophy, Nazism was a nationalist system, primarily aimed at xenophobic beliefs all leading to inequity and inequality.


Even Orwell agrees that fascism is almost exactly the same as socialism...


But where he says fascism is capitalism that has borrowed bits of socialism... I would argue the opposite... fascism is socialism that has borrowed bits of capitalism...


As mises argues in the link I posted earlier... and Orwell also highlights... the Nazis did leave many businesses in what appeared to be private ownership... but they were so heavily state controlled that the 'owners' were little more than state employed 'managers'...


Then Orwell tries to paint the happy clappy ideal of socialism being about everyone in the world being free and equal... but also describes this as a 'world state'... or a world government in other words... where the whole world is controlled by one big world govt... so hardly free or equal...


And this is much the same ideal that the Nazis had... to take over the world with object being one world govt...


So much the same really...


But where socialism fails... is also the only real difference between that and fascism... socialism has this belief that all are equal... but when you are overseeing what is essentially a huge workforce of people that are needed to do the various huge number of work tasks to keep everything going... everyone is not equal in their contribution or their ability to contribute... or their expectations of reward for what they contribute... so this is where the idea that all are equal falls apart... why should one person do more than another for the same reward?


People quickly start doing as little as possible or as little as the lowest performing worker to make it equal for the given reward to be equal too!


Which is where communism failed...


And where fascism started to take over as the neo socialism...


It was only different in that it recognised the failure from before... and included the idea that people aren't all equal in their productive ability/input... and a better reward was theoretically achievable for those who contributed more...!


But as orwell/mises/myself have all said... the big state was still there and in total control of everything to do with every 'business'... and the 'owner' was really just a state run and state controlled 'manager'...


Also... the Nazis also looked after the sick and poor... they did have a health care system and the poor/homeless were given food/shelter and employment...


Last edited by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Lord Foul on Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:00 pm

It wouldnt be so bad Major, if the foreign aid was actually used to help the poor in those countries, but by and large it is merely a bribe to a multitude of tin pot foreign dictators to trade with us rather than someone else....

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:13 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Even Orwell agrees that fascism is almost exactly the same as socialism...

But where he says fascism is capitalism that has borrowed bits of socialism... I would argue the opposite... fascism is socialism that has borrowed bits of capitalism...

As mises argues in the link I posted earlier... and Orwell also highlights... the Nazis did leave many businesses in what appeared to be private ownership... but they were so heavily state controlled that the 'owners' were little more than state employed 'managers'...

Then Orwell tries to paint the happy clappy ideal of socialism being about everyone in the world being free and equal... but also describes this as a 'world state'... or a world government in other words... where the whole world is controlled by one big world govt...

And this is much the same ideal that the Nazis had... to take over the world with object being one world govt...

So much the same really...

You make the mistake of seizing form over purpose. Political organizations are not mechanical parts, but living, breathing entities. The people within them have aims, which are determined by the common purpose.

Nazism pays lip service to socialism, but it's primary purpose is a kind of political nepotism, writ large...that is, not relative and friends, but fellow Germans elevated over all others. Even this broke down to where it was Hitler and his cronies when push came to shove. That was Orwell's point: it's really structured inequality.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:16 pm

Socialism does exactly the same... all in the name of equality mind...!!!



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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Original Quill on Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:42 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Socialism does exactly the same... all in the name of equality mind...!!!

No, quite the opposite.  Socialism grew out of democracy, and is basically a humanist kind of political organization, keeping in tact the Lockean elements of equality and fairness.  

There is a certain back-and-forth to seventeenth-century political thought, where the break-up of the corporate Church (Aristotle to Aquinas) led to a kind of atomism of the political corpus (Hobbes and The Leviathan), to Locke, and then finally to Marx.  In the process we went to extreme collectivism, to extreme individualism, and then back to collectivism--or social...ism.  But it's all progress in the same dialogue.

Karl Marx is right out of John Locke.   In Second Treatise of Civil Government (1690) Locke argued that property is derived by man making the world his own, ie labor:

Locke, Second Treatise, (Of Property) wrote:Sec.27. Though the earth, and all inferior creatures, be common to all men, yet every man has a property in his own person: this no body has any right to but himself. The labour of his body, and the work of his hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever then he removes out of the state that nature hath provided, and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property. It being by him removed from the common state nature hath placed it in, it hath by this labour something annexed to it, that excludes the common right of other men: for this labour being the unquestionable property of the labourer, no man but he can have a right to what that is once joined to, at least where there is enough, and as good, left in common for others.

But Locke saw labor as an individual activity--two hands and a lump of clay, so to speak.  Socialism was born of awareness that what we do, we do as a social organ rather than as individuals.  Locke's premise is still there--that we make the world our own by Labor--but Marx, in Das Kapital, pointed out that in industrial society we perform our labor collectively.  That's the only difference: Locke saw society as a bunch of seventeenth-century shopkeepers whereas Marx saw society in the industrial setting.  Socialism is democracy, reconfigured to account for how we labor, and consequently who should own property.

Socialism is the very essence of humanism, whereas Nazism is the antithesis of it.  Socialism sought to bring equality back to concepts of property, ownership and political society, while Nazism sought to introduce inequality.  It really is a degraded form of Darwinist authoritarianism, and has nothing in common with true socialism.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:10 am

Socialism/communism failed for reasons I gave... the do nothings expected the same as the do somethings... resulting in all doing as little as possible and expecting same rewards..


How is locke's vision of where a man is free to do and take what he wants from nature and solely owns what he labours to have/construct... anything like any socialist ideal where others have part claim/ownership or control over what he himself labours to have...?



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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:50 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Socialism/communism failed for reasons I gave... the do nothings expected the same as the do somethings... resulting in all doing as little as possible and expecting same rewards..

That is your social theory: take away incentive and you have no motivation (proving, incidentally, that you too are a socialist, with a social theory).  But your social theory assumes the same atomism of Hobbes' theory of 1640, and ignores that humankind is social.  Autonomous-individualism becomes a normative theory, and thus counsels selfishness to believers.  Hence, the theory of selfishness of conservatives in the modern day.

Socialism has not failed.  Communism was a mixture of historical materialism and socialism, influenced by Hegel and his dialectical method, which influenced Marx.  Thus Marx's specific predictions failed.  

But socialism has lived on magnificently in Europe, and significantly, England (which Marx predicted would be the ultimate Marxist state).  You have a Labour Party, which has functioned quite well, thank you.  Indeed, the success of socialism is seen in the enduring quality of Labour as the leading party in your country today.  Remember, both Locke and Marx were dealing with Labor and it's relationship with ownership of property.


Tommy Monk wrote:How is Locke's vision of where a man is free to do and take what he wants from nature and solely owns what he labours to have/construct... anything like any socialist ideal where others have part claim/ownership or control over what he himself labours to have...?

Because, as Marx proved irrefutably, if ownership of property is derived from labor, and labor is social, then the social entity owns property.  

And that is socialism.  Socialism is simply a just reckoning of rights and entitlements as John Locke and the British designers of democracy prescribed.  That was Marx's point.  It's not that difficult.


Last edited by Original Quill on Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:10 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:54 am



WE HAVE three, maybe four, far right wing extremists on here, who are constantly exposing their own total ignorance over anything to do with political or economic theory, and practice, with their constant denials and fantasies...

So far, two of them have voted that they consider that the German nationalist party of the 1930s and '40s was a "far left socialist" organisation..

The term  "stupidly ignorant" doesn't even begin to describe their collective idiocy  !

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:59 am

@tommy
Socialism has failed has it?
So Britain has Failed?
 
You are A grade idiot that is talking out your ass because socialism is the most effective and common system of governance in the world today.
there are NO true capitalist economies
even the USA is still mixed market economy using (meaning socialist mixed capitalist)
but while a diluted capitalism no longer meets the definition of Capitalism, a diluted Socialism is still socialism.
 
You clearly have no idea about communism or fascism and are struggling with basic of socialism and capitalism, which you need to understand before you can discuss either of the later systems as they derive from the prior systems.
 
 
And socialism does not propose that all are equal. EVEN equal rights DOES NOT PROPOSE that all are equal, it proposes that ALL should have EQUAL ACCESS WITH IN THE LAW that doesn’t mean all are equal. IF you cannot follow STFU.
 
 
there is no such thing as labouring yourself for something alone as all rely on the infrastructure proved by the community.
and you cannot take from nature without impact on others, BY doing so you are denying other access to it, so it still didn't come from nowhere.
 
Locke is a classic example of European Evil and Greed that tries to moralise theft of resources. By fallacious short sighted examples that never take into account the broader reality and finite nature of resources.

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by nicko on Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:50 am

Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep
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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:34 pm

All I see here is more confirmation that nazis/fascism is of the left...


I have seen nothing to indicate they were in any way right wing with free market capitalism/small state/small state control/freedom of the individual/low taxation ideals...

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:33 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:All I see here is more confirmation that nazis/fascism is of the left...

I have seen nothing to indicate they were in any way right wing with free market capitalism/small state/small state control/freedom of the individual/low taxation ideals...



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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:37 pm

Fascism: I sometimes fear...

"I sometimes fear that
people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress
worn by grotesques and monsters
as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis.

Fascism arrives as your friend.
It will restore your honour,
make you feel proud,
protect your house,
give you a job,
clean up the neighbourhood,
remind you of how great you once were,
clear out the venal and the corrupt,
remove anything you feel is unlike you...

It doesn't walk in saying,
"Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution."

(Michael Rosen)

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Re: Are the Nazi Party extreme far right or extreme far left?

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