Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

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Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:53 am

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DALLAS police have confirmed the alleged snipers who were reportedly involved in the Dallas shooting are now in custody.

“The person of interest whose picture has been circulated just turned himself in,” the DPD confirmed.

“Another alleged suspect was in a shootout with Dallas SWAT officers. That suspect is also in custody. A suspicious package was discovered near this suspect’s location.

“The package is being secured by DPD bomb squad.”

Earlier, authorities released an image of one of the suspected snipers on the run from authorities as another officer was confirmed dead. That brings the death toll up to four.

They tweeted the image of the man with the caption “please help us find him”, but other reports suggest that man is in fact not the sniper.
It came during the chaos in Dallas as at least 11 police officers were shot in a protest over two recent fatal police shootings of black men.

Dallas Police Department Chief David Brown confirmed that 11 officers were shot by two snipers in downtown Dallas. Four are dead, three are critical, and two are in surgery.

Brown also warned: “We also believe these suspects have threatened to plant a bomb in the downtown area.”

“Tonight it appears that two snipers shot (11) police officers from elevated positions during the protest/rally,” Brown said.

“Three officers are deceased, two are in surgery and three are in critical condition. An intensive search for suspects is currently underway. No suspects are in custody at this time.”

Fox News reports the survivors are in a “grave condition”.

The shooting took place in downtown Dallas just before the end of the rally, at about 8.45pm.

It is unknown if any civilians were injured in the shooting.
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/dallas-police-shot-in-dallas-protest/news-story/2f6ee162afb6e5af75bf26ab259ff593

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:59 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Of course Quill and Sassy will be screaming all over the forum when the police get even tougher and shoot more people before they get shot themselves - as long as it's not a white person they shoot of course. If it's a white person they'll just shrug.

You really can't get out of the shit-pit, can you?  You actually believe that the police are right in murdering innocent civilians.  It's a sport, eh?  Keep the troops happy so they won't ask for a raise?

I don't know how many metaphors we have to use to convince you...a dog chasing it's own tail?  A vicious circle?  A police murder begets a black murder begets a police murder begets a black man who is murdered.  In each case the perp is a bad person; why not focus on the bad people instead of championing one side.

You're the one who thinks it's fine for snipers to murder police officers in cold blood - for something that wasn't done to them. You're excusing murder FFS, and you have no thought whatsoever for the victims.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:16 pm

The sniper who was killed has been named as Micah Johnson. Reports say that he was killed by a robot!

He apparently said beforehand that he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers. This was a racially-motivated crime. Anyone want to excuse that?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/dallas-sniper-shootings-police-robot-killed-gunman-micah-johnson-following-anti-white-attack-1569673



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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:19 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You really can't get out of the shit-pit, can you?  You actually believe that the police are right in murdering innocent civilians.  It's a sport, eh?  Keep the troops happy so they won't ask for a raise?

I don't know how many metaphors we have to use to convince you...a dog chasing it's own tail?  A vicious circle?  A police murder begets a black murder begets a police murder begets a black man who is murdered.  In each case the perp is a bad person; why not focus on the bad people instead of championing one side.

You're the one who thinks it's fine for snipers to murder police officers in cold blood - for something that wasn't done to them. You're excusing murder FFS, and you have no thought whatsoever for the victims.

That's a lie and you know it. But lying is habitual for conservatives. For them it's a way to dialogue and not be found wrong...to dodge. Because inevitably a conservative must divert attention away from the truth.

To keep the "vicious circle" going is the conservatives way of keeping racism going. If you once tried to stop the circuitous madness, you would have to reckon with the malfeasance of the police...not a tenable position for one who fancies a police state. And as Irn's quote of Nobel laureate F. A. Hayek notes, the conservative “feels safe and content only if he is assured that some higher wisdom watches and supervises change, only if he knows that some authority is charged with keeping the change ‘orderly.’”

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:21 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You're the one who thinks it's fine for snipers to murder police officers in cold blood - for something that wasn't done to them. You're excusing murder FFS, and you have no thought whatsoever for the victims.

That's a lie and you know it.  But lying is habitual for conservatives.  For them it's a way to dialogue and not be found wrong...to dodge.  Because inevitably a conservative must divert attention away from the truth.

To keep the "vicious circle" going is the conservatives way of keeping racism going.  If you once tried to stop the circuitous madness, you would have to reckon with the malfeasance of the police...not a tenable position for one who fancies a police state.  And as Irn's quote of Nobel laureate F. A. Hayek notes, the conservative “feels safe and content only if he is assured that some higher wisdom watches and supervises change, only if he knows that some authority is charged with keeping the change ‘orderly.’”

It's not a lie. You don't give a stuff about the officers who were killed in cold blood. You only care about the perpetrator because he was black. Well he was a murderer who killed white people - because they were white. You lefties have no empathy whatsoever - you're selfish, stupid, ignorant, and racist.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:27 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

That's a lie and you know it.  But lying is habitual for conservatives.  For them it's a way to dialogue and not be found wrong...to dodge.  Because inevitably a conservative must divert attention away from the truth.

To keep the "vicious circle" going is the conservatives way of keeping racism going.  If you once tried to stop the circuitous madness, you would have to reckon with the malfeasance of the police...not a tenable position for one who fancies a police state.  And as Irn's quote of Nobel laureate F. A. Hayek notes, the conservative “feels safe and content only if he is assured that some higher wisdom watches and supervises change, only if he knows that some authority is charged with keeping the change ‘orderly.’”

It's not a lie. You don't give a stuff about the officers who were killed in cold blood. You only care about the perpetrator because he was black. Well he was a murderer who killed white people - because they were white. You lefties have no empathy whatsoever - you're selfish, stupid, ignorant, and racist.

It's a lie and you know it.

It's your way of dodging the fact that you like the vicious circle.  You like cops killing blacks killing cops killing blacks killing cops...because it ultimately shows people not getting along.  That is the conservative's paradise.  Trouble calls down authority, and authority eschews justice.

And believe me, justice is the one thing the conservative does not want to see done. You'd rather see the anger reinvested in racism.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:32 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not a lie. You don't give a stuff about the officers who were killed in cold blood. You only care about the perpetrator because he was black. Well he was a murderer who killed white people - because they were white. You lefties have no empathy whatsoever - you're selfish, stupid, ignorant, and racist.

It's a lie and you know it.

It's your way of dodging the fact that you like the vicious circle.  You like cops killing blacks killing cops killing blacks killing cops...because it ultimately shows people not getting along.  That is the conservative's paradise.  Trouble calls down authority, and authority eschews justice.

And believe me, justice is the one thing the conservative does not want to see done.  You'd rather see the anger reinvested in racism.

It's not a lie. Where is your condemnation for this racially-motivate crime? All you've done is excuse it, and blame the police - and me - for what those murderers did. You like it when white cops get killed - especially if black people kill them.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by eddie on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:36 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:Well just to make it clear....I never did!

You exhibited a rather cavalier attitude towards the murder of the officers though. What did you call it? Oh yes - making "some noise".

Oh fgs rags! I was kind of bypassing that to get to the bomb bit.
Never mind. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:38 pm

Well if these three other suspects were involved, I hope they throw the book at them. Involved in the murder of police officers in a racially-motived crime? That's got to be a very long sentence - a well deserved one.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by eddie on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:38 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:You're excusing the murder of five police officers - no surprise there. This isn't retaliation, it's murder - let's call it what it is. Don't blame one cop for the death of another.

No, you are to blame, Raggs.  Your sentiment is what is perpetuating the murders.  You are down in the mud hurling insults at the other side, when the moral people are trying to rise above and stop this madness.

When are you going to learn that revenge begets revenge.  There are so many examples...the Hatfields and McCoy's are an excellent example.  For a century these two families along the West Virginia–Kentucky border killed each other for revenge.  Nothing got any better...it was just one murder after another.  And that's what you have here.  It's insane.

Wow! You're actually blaming me for the murder of five police officers. Now I know you've lost touch with reality. How about you have a bit of empathy for the victims instead of excusing the perpetrators? I guess you think that the victims of 9/11 deserved what they got, or maybe the victims of 7/7.


Nobody on this site gave two hoots yesterday about the 7/7 victims.
I posted a thread in Memoriam and...... just me and Didge.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:46 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Wow! You're actually blaming me for the murder of five police officers. Now I know you've lost touch with reality. How about you have a bit of empathy for the victims instead of excusing the perpetrators? I guess you think that the victims of 9/11 deserved what they got, or maybe the victims of 7/7.


Nobody on this site gave two hoots yesterday about the 7/7 victims.
I posted a thread in Memoriam and...... just me and Didge.

I can only speak for myself - I'm not a fan of anniversaries of bad events. This event just happened.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:48 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It's a lie and you know it.

It's your way of dodging the fact that you like the vicious circle.  You like cops killing blacks killing cops killing blacks killing cops...because it ultimately shows people not getting along.  That is the conservative's paradise.  Trouble calls down authority, and authority eschews justice.

And believe me, justice is the one thing the conservative does not want to see done.  You'd rather see the anger reinvested in racism.

It's not a lie. Where is your condemnation for this racially-motivate crime? All you've done is excuse it, and blame the police - and me - for what those murderers did. You like it when white cops get killed - especially if black people kill them.

When you resort to such obvious lies, I know you are feeling insecure in your arguments.  If you had a ray of sunshine to your argument, you would bask in it.  There is no sunshine in the argument that everyone should continue trading blows.  It's an endless cycle of darkness and collapse.

In my world, the policeman and the black man would live and prosper.  In my world both would lift their heads up and see that killing one another is futile.  The police have no monopoly on righteousness...if they did they wouldn't start it by killing another human being in the first place.  And the black man would see that there is nothing to be gained by taking up arms; it only reinforces the idea that there is nothing better.

What if the Dallas cops that were killed this morning were the good guys; the ones who would have gone on to make their department better and cleaner?  To that sniper I would say: you just set back your own cause by a few decades. Thanks for nothing!

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not a lie. Where is your condemnation for this racially-motivate crime? All you've done is excuse it, and blame the police - and me - for what those murderers did. You like it when white cops get killed - especially if black people kill them.

When you resort to such obvious lies, I know you are feeling insecure in your arguments.  If you had a ray of sunshine to your argument, you would bask in it.  There is no sunshine in the argument that everyone should continue trading blows.  It's an endless cycle of darkness and collapse.

In my world, but the policeman and the black man would live and prosper.  In my world both would lift their heads up and see that killing one another is futile.  The police have no monopoly on righteousness...if they did they wouldn't start it by killing another human being in the first place.  And the black man would see that there is nothing to be gained by taking up arms; it only reinforces the idea that there is nothing better.

What if the Dallas cops that were killed this morning were the good guys; the ones who would have gone on to make their department better and cleaner?  To that sniper I would say: you just set back your own cause by a few decades.

There you go again - excusing these murderers on the grounds that some black guys got shot by the police. You say the police kill people, but you call the murder of police officers "taking up arms", as if that justifies it. The sniper didn't have a cause other than wanting to kill white people, and you're still justifying it. Do you think that Dylann Roof had a justified cause?

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:02 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:There you go again - excusing these murderers on the grounds that some black guys got shot by the police.

Um...the black guys did get shot...or did you miss that part?

Raggamuffin wrote:You say the police kill people, but you call the murder of police officers "taking up arms", as if that justifies it.


That's just your whiny interpretation.  Both of them are doing the same thing: blatant murder.  The terms that describe them are interchangeable.

Raggamuffin wrote:The sniper didn't have a cause other than wanting to kill white people, and you're still justifying it. Do you think that Dylann Roof had a justified cause?

And the cop in Minneapolis had a broken taillight.  If that justifies murder for you, then I truly think you are a lost cause.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:04 pm

I always know you lost the argument when you start splitting posts Quill. You're glad these officers were killed - there's no doubt about that.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:10 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I always know you lost the argument when you start splitting posts Quill. You're glad these officers were killed - there's no doubt about that.

Actually, I split posts because of enthusiasm.  It means you have given me, not one point, but several to make my case.  

As a lawyer, I build a case as one would build a wall...brick by brick.  What you are seeing when I split, is actually a graphic of how I argue effectively.  When you see me splitting posts, you are seeing me doing what I do best: framing and sorting arguments for the final thrust.  

It's fun...and sharpens your skills.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by eddie on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:14 pm

Hahahah Quiil I think we all know why you do it. We all answer posts point by point - some of us bold the parts.

It didn't need explaining Wink

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:15 pm

Most people use c&p's, or just quote a long post.  They don't go into the article or post with a critical eye, and can't make a point by focusing into the various points.

I can and do.  It's to your advantage as well.  It helps you see exactly what I'm directly addressing on this point or that, rather than missing it all.

I wish more people would do it. It aids in sharpening everyone's skills at debate.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:24 pm

Original Quill wrote:Most people use c&p's, or just quote a long post.  They don't go into the article or post with a critical eye, and can't make a point by focusing into the various points.

I can and do.  It's to your advantage as well.  It helps you see exactly what I'm directly addressing on this point or that, rather than missing it all.

I wish more people would do it.  It aids in sharpening everyone's skills at debate.

But lobbing poop is easy and fuuuuuuuuun ...

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:41 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Most people use c&p's, or just quote a long post.  They don't go into the article or post with a critical eye, and can't make a point by focusing into the various points.

I can and do.  It's to your advantage as well.  It helps you see exactly what I'm directly addressing on this point or that, rather than missing it all.

I wish more people would do it.  It aids in sharpening everyone's skills at debate.

But lobbing poop is easy and fuuuuuuuuun ...

Razz Razz I know. It's just that, if I have my druthers, I like to make sense of something. Wink

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:44 am

Original Quill wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Most people use c&p's, or just quote a long post.  They don't go into the article or post with a critical eye, and can't make a point by focusing into the various points.

I can and do.  It's to your advantage as well.  It helps you see exactly what I'm directly addressing on this point or that, rather than missing it all.

I wish more people would do it.  It aids in sharpening everyone's skills at debate.

But lobbing poop is easy and fuuuuuuuuun ...

Razz Razz   I know.  It's just that, if I have my druthers, I like to make sense of something.  Wink

Same here, brother. Just making a little commentary on human nature Smile

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Lord Foul on Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:19 pm

well from where I sit

Whilst the murder of tghose police officers in the execution of their duty is both tragic and counter productive...Is anyone REALLY surprised this has happened.

Those (individual) police officers that have been killed may well have been GOOD cops...

but to the mind of the opressed they were simply cops

and cops (jointly and severally by way of the institution) have become the enemy.

If you perceive yourself to be in a war, any "enemy soldier" is a legitimate target

thats not by way of excusing anything btw....BUT it IS the "logic" of a very illogical situation

tbh I think you may yet see more and or worse to come

those "bad cops" may have lit the flames under a petrol can.......

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:22 pm

Well put, LF. Something needs to be done at the federal level to cool things off.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:37 pm

Lord Foul wrote:well from where I sit

Whilst the murder of tghose police officers in the execution of their duty is both tragic and counter productive...Is anyone REALLY surprised this has happened.

Those (individual) police officers that have been killed may well have been GOOD cops...

but to the mind of the opressed they were simply cops

and cops (jointly and severally by way of the institution) have become the enemy.

If you perceive yourself to be in a war, any "enemy soldier" is a legitimate target

thats not by way of excusing anything btw....BUT it IS the "logic" of a very illogical situation

tbh I think you may yet see more and or worse to come

those "bad cops" may have lit the flames under a petrol can.......


But it is the press and media that has engineeered and provoked this war.
Now if you look at the figures for those killed again people are inventing a unfounded claim, that simply does not hold up to scrutiny.
That only every African American death, by the Police is racial and excessive force. Whilst blatantly ignoring other ethnic groups that have had people also killed by the Police of which some have actually also made the news and headlines. Where there is a possibility. That the officers acted on a zero risk factor appraoch. This is evident when we look at the numbers.

509 have been killed by the Police
Of which 238 were white, and 79 were Hispanic.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-08/breakdown-us-citizens-killed-cops-2016


Now do you ever see a claim that the Police acted racially, when they shoot and kill a suspect if white?
No, but its an automatic lead off from the worlds media to apply a falsehood when the victim is African American.
Again I have no doubt, that there will be instances of racism, but they will be few and far between.
This will be more down to the fact a significant number of the victims, 124, had mental health issues. Which without extensive training is going to continue to see a high number lose their lives. Due to the difficulty on calming a volatile possible situation when the suspect has mental health. On top of this you have a nation, where is far easier to obtain an assualt rifle than to pass a driving test. On top of this the Police had too much of a an empahsis and drummed into them on the grapic details of where officers have lost theirt lives and no gory detail is left out. This more than anything, on top of the fact there is a high crime rate, an easy access to guns, that the officers. Is instilling a zero risk mental attitude when dealing with armed or claims to possible armed suspects.
Now the majority of the killings sadly, that they have happened are lawful. What is a appalling is how to centre this on ethnicity, when no matter the ethnic group, people are shit and killed. Is sowing the seeds for a continued conflict within the US based on race.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by eddie on Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:41 pm

Why are the media creating a war Didge?

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Lord Foul on Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:44 pm

yeah yeah ...BUT the death that triggered these killings is not and can NOT be in any way "lawful"

the guy was on the ground and PINNED by officers, who shot him at point blank range....

and the same with many more....

Dont make the mistake of mixing up different statistics didge...


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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:48 pm

eddie wrote:Why are the media creating a war Didge?


Not all the media, but those left leaning, that automatically presume, that when an Afrucan Amerian dies unlawfully at the hands of some Police officers. That they then play off a racial issue, hardly even exhasuting all possibilities for why the tragic event happened. As soon as the racist label has been endorsed by these left leaning media. Then the trust between the Police and African Americans gets wider.
Like i say, some will be down to racism, but many will be down to officers carrying out a very high risk role. Which is as seen made worse by how they are like the left media, led by fear over other officers deaths. To the point, this can an does render the ability of Offciers to use caution. They take a zero rosk factor approach when confronting a situation. This is clearly so by how there is a high number of those killed with mental health issues.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by eddie on Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:05 pm

Are there any cases (I haven't googled) where officers have routinely shot white men, for no reason?

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by veya_victaous on Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:25 am

Lord Foul wrote:yeah yeah ...BUT the death that triggered these killings is not and can NOT be in any way "lawful"

the guy was on the ground and PINNED by officers, who shot him at point blank range....

and the same with many more....

Dont make the mistake of mixing up different statistics didge...


That is really a big part of it
it is the circumstances of the black men's deaths, traffic stops and while restrained etc that really provoke the outrage.
it is not like they are shooting up a theater etc and they took that shooter alive.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:03 am

eddie wrote:Are there any cases (I haven't googled) where officers have routinely  shot white men, for no reason?


Here is a recent one for you

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/zachary-hammond-police-killing_us_55c0e240e4b0c9fdc75dfda3

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:57 am

Idea

MOST of the latest victim's of illicit/unnecessary 'by-cop' killings down here in NSW have been "whities", in more recent years...

Including a French national shot on a Sydney beach, a few years ago;
A Brazilian tourist Tasered by cops in Sydney a couple of years back;
A white woman having a psycho' episode on a Sydney street, while waving a knife at cops standing 3-->>5 metres back;
Back in the '90s a farmer was ''executed" (in the words of other neighbouring farmers..) by a police sniper during a police standoff at his property outside of Tumut on the NSW Southern Highlands..

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:06 am

Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:Why are the media creating a war Didge?


Not all the media, but those left leaning, that automatically presume, that when an Afrucan Amerian dies unlawfully at the hands of some Police officers. That they then play off a racial issue, hardly even exhasuting all possibilities for why the tragic event happened. As soon as the racist label has been endorsed by these left leaning media. Then the trust between the Police and African Americans gets wider.
Like i say, some will be down to racism, but many will be down to officers carrying out a very high risk role. Which is as seen made worse by how they are like the left media, led by fear over other officers deaths. To the point, this can an does render the ability of Offciers to use caution. They take a zero rosk factor approach when confronting a situation. This is clearly so by how there is a high number of those killed with mental health issues.



UNFORTUNATELY for that argument, Didge, the more salient fact is that the great majority of the larger newspaper, radio and Television outlets over there are owned and operated by either billionaires or big corporations these days...

Neither of which could exactly be called "left leaning", not by any stretch of the imagination..

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:02 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Didge wrote:


Not all the media, but those left leaning, that automatically presume, that when an Afrucan Amerian dies unlawfully at the hands of some Police officers. That they then play off a racial issue, hardly even exhasuting all possibilities for why the tragic event happened. As soon as the racist label has been endorsed by these left leaning media. Then the trust between the Police and African Americans gets wider.
Like i say, some will be down to racism, but many will be down to officers carrying out a very high risk role. Which is as seen made worse by how they are like the left media, led by fear over other officers deaths. To the point, this can an does render the ability of Offciers to use caution. They take a zero rosk factor approach when confronting a situation. This is clearly so by how there is a high number of those killed with mental health issues.



UNFORTUNATELY for that argument, Didge, the more salient fact is that the great majority of the larger newspaper, radio and Television outlets over there are owned and operated by either billionaires or big corporations these days...

Neither of which could exactly be called "left leaning", not by any stretch of the imagination..


Well what is funny is many are playing off a racial aspect, before any such classification has been made and this happenes when it is African Americans. When no matter the ethnicity of the deceased and that many whites have been killed also. Shows why it is not only dangerous and misleading to portray all deaths if the victims are African American as unlawful, but is fundementally ignoring how many people shot by the Police are also white and Latino. Its clear to me that the root cause will be unliek;y to be racial if whites have been shot by Police and th reality is. Now I made many points on all this already, which nobody it seems has been able to respond to

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:07 pm

Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:Are there any cases (I haven't googled) where officers have routinely  shot white men, for no reason?


Here is a recent one for you

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/zachary-hammond-police-killing_us_55c0e240e4b0c9fdc75dfda3

I think the question was "where officers have routinely  shot white men, for no reason?"  I see nothing "routine" about the case you offer.  It appears to be an exception.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, US Department of Justice, a higher percentage of black drivers (13%) than white (10%) and Hispanic (10%) drivers were stopped by police during 2011.  A lower percentage of white drivers stopped by police in 2011 were searched (2%) than black (6%) or Hispanic (7%) drivers.  The pattern is the same with previous, and subsequent years.

Most of the police murders are incident to traffic stops.  So it begins here.

Continuing, cops killed nearly twice as many blacks as whites in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black, but blacks represent only 13% of the population.  In 2015 the data show that unarmed black men are seven times more likely to die at the hands of a policeman than an unarmed white man.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by eddie on Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:11 pm

That's why I used the word "routinely".

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:16 pm

eddie wrote:That's why I used the word "routinely".

Exactly. The question calls for a statistical answer, not a single incident. You can't generalize from specifics.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:28 pm

Original Quill wrote:


I think the question was "where officers have routinely  shot white men, for no reason?"  I see nothing "routine" about the case you offer.  It appears to be an exception.


Routine?
That is up to be tried in court.
You though fail off the first hurdle whn you aplly and then make out off the above.
The point is so far this year far more whites have been killed by Police and a high number of Latinos.
So the reality is in most cases we need to loook at all individual that has been shot by the Police.
Like I said the reality is fear of ending up dead going to confront an armed situation, which will more than anything. Create a volatile situation. Again through their training, they are literally spoom fed countless horros commited to Police officers and this will most definately have an effect on then dealing with a situation. Again due to the high number killed who have mental health issues, this is another area that needs additional training on how to deal with. Now there is clearly a case that no doubt, some white police officers will hold a sterotype view on blacks and criminality and why you see such a disparity on stop and searches.
That though is unlikely to be the reason that will cause an unlawful death of an African American by the Police.
Now the Police require protection because you have a poor policy, that allows guns to be sold as candy onto the streets of America.
This is the first situation, that vastly increases the risks to Officers in the line of duty.
So again either you accept that you want to have guns andf access to many guns in the US. Which will continue to lead to some Police Officers being controlled by their fear, to them make a drastic decision. It is the reality you are placing officers into.
Again training is going to be the key going forward. To stop as part of the training countless videos that show Cops being murdered in graphis detail and how to deal with people who have mental health

What needs to stop is the inequality and assumptions made, that when the victim shot by the Police is African American, then its declared racist by default. Not only is that being fundementally racist in regards to the other victims, but as seen further fuels and incites even more anger. What the US Prosecuters need to do, is look at the real root causes of this porblem. As using the race card is not helping all those killed by the Police ever then obtain real justice, if they were unlawfully killed.

You need to instigate a ruling that if any officer has ended up killing someone in the line of duty, they will then no longer serve in the field carrying a gun.[/quote]

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:52 pm

"Routine", as a word, presupposes a series of events rather than a single incident.

Merrian-Webster wrote:rou-tine
/roo-ten/

a sequence of actions regularly followed; a fixed program.

We can't generalize from specifics.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:11 pm

Lord Foul wrote:yeah yeah ...BUT the death that triggered these killings is not and can NOT be in any way "lawful"

the guy was on the ground and PINNED by officers, who shot him at point blank range....

and the same with many more....

Dont make the mistake of mixing up different statistics didge...


I disagree, its how a death is viewed as racist by default, that further incites violence and caused this and further murders of Police.
I have not disputed that the African American was unlawfully shot and have stated that it was unlawful.
That thouugh does not mean it was due to being racially motivated. Of which is what is claimed and fueled when and predominantly with African Americans. That is then up to then for the legal system to then prosecute these officers, but by the fact you are guilty oif playing off this mans death racially, is blatantly ignoring what will more likely be the common cause factor. When that fear and reality of facing someone armed, that this fear takes control of the Officer who then has zero ability to go off any traing at that instant. Again where yuu have such a high number of gun deaths and also Police murdered in the line of duty, its the setting for continual problem. Rcaism will certaiinly sometimes be a factor on these killings, but to centre on this again, when so many whites and Latinos are also killed. Does nothing but furthe devide the US racially. The reality is many people would not even factor or claim unlawful if the Police shoot a white suspeect and why each case should be investigated on the actual incident itself and not the sterotype view held by the African American community, that the majority of Police officers are racist and out to murder them. What you need to do is understand what is the cause here and not make seperatge African Americans from the other ethnic groups killed by the Police. If Americans ar going to continue to defend the right to own and wear a gun, then they simply have to accept, that this will continue to keep officers when on duty at high risk. With a high risk factor, then allows again for fear to cloud an officers training and end up taking someones life. You can train people to the highest standard possible, of which the US Police are, but nothing can actually prepare you for then having to face an armed situation for real.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by eddie on Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:39 pm

So there are no white people routinely shot by the police then?

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:05 pm

eddie wrote:So there are no white people routinely shot by the police then?

If you mean by "routine" an established pattern or statistical anomaly, no.  The unusual number of  shootings of black males by white police officers stand out because it is irregular and can only be explained by racist leanings on the part of the police.

A lot of American policemen, and the police tactics they developed, come from returning MP's and SP's from WWII.  Police departments and hence police tactics are a fairly new thing.  Before, in the 1850's and before, we might have marshals and constables, but policemen only in the rare instance.

The job of policeman stands in-between professional and construction worker.  A lot of the people who gained entry were of the latter variety, and came disproportionately from the south.  There was a huge migration of southerners into the northern industrial areas in the post-war years.  (Some of you might remember a CW song by Bobby Bare about this migration: "Home Folks Think I'm Big in Detroit City", or I Want to Go Home.)  That is why cities like Minneapolis and Cleveland have a lot of these racist shootings....white southerners becoming cops in northern cities.

We are right now in the process of professionalizing our police forces.  Cities like Los Angeles and Oakland have literally been taken over by the Feds, while other 'good' cities like Denver, Chicago and Seattle have advanced police science immensely in the past two decades.  The South (look at Harris County) is always going to be hopeless.  But these shootings are going to be a part of us as we go through this transition of weeding out the old, southern racists.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:So there are no white people routinely shot by the police then?

If you mean by "routine" an established pattern or statistical anomaly, no.  The unusual number of  shootings of black males stand out because it is irregular and can only be explained by racist leanings on the part of the police.
.

You see its this sort of disingenious claims made which denies you any ability to raionalize and reason.
Nothing stands out other than the reality of 124 of this years 509 killed, had mental health issues. Which clearly if not recognised or understood by the police could easily confuse movements for aggression. Which does happen.
The reality is this year 238 white people, 123 black and 79 hispanic have lost their lives to the Police. To use the bases as racism for their deaths, when many lose their lives in the other ethnic groups shows and proves that racism willl be unlikely to be the cause of the shooting. If as seen many people are shot and killexd, then there is a pattern and that pattern will come off the Police allowing their fear to take control of the situation. If you are claiming that all the shootings of Blacks have been actually deliberate on a hatred of blacks, then we both know youa re being dishonest. There is no doubt some racism within the Police but its to the point where racists are joining in order to murder black people, as the cause of the numbers killed. What you fail to do again is look at each situation.
Now a majority of the victims were carrying guns. This already places a situation into the adrenaline zone, for officers attending and its whether they can maintain control, knowing their lives could be at risk.



"32% of black people killed by police in 2015 were unarmed, as were 25% of Hispanic and Latino people, compared with 15% of white people killed.".

Now if in most cases the suspects are armed as seen, then it increases the risk of possible shootings.
The only variance seen here will be based on something on whether the Police will fear being killed more so by one ethnicity, compared to another. That wil be based on the training where they are showed countless cops being murdered and if in many of the those murders the killers happen to be African American, then this will no doubt raise a heighten fear within some Poliice officers.
The main aspect where race will come into this is based on knoiwn percentages of the ethnicity oif those found guilty of homicide.. This why then some US officers allow fear to take control as  the number of black and white murderers  are fairly equal, but with African Americans committing more.


(“Homicide Trends in the United States, 1980–2008“), blacks accounted for 52.5 percent of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3 percent and “other” 2.2 percent.
.

So when you look at homicides and not the percentage population of an ethniic group to then base a claim that more blacks are 12 times more likely to be shot by the Police for example, but then the same principle will reply in reverse for the police officers, who will see that using the lefts logic. Then homicides commited by Blacks far exceeds their percentage population. Which means that blacks then are going to more like 50 times more likely than other ethnic groups of murdering someone. So you cannot have it both ways. Either its a minority of people in any ethnic group that can lead to or end up killing people, which is what it should be or you go off their total population in the country, to then base a claim that they are far more likely to be killed than the other ethnic groups, blatantly ignoring that they would also based off this be far more likley to kill. Its clearly a correlation and why you will end up seeing more Blacks sadly lose their lives soemtimes even when iunarmed, because clearly a fear, has grown off doing exactly the same poor sterotype that the left do on an ethnic group killed. So again, its far more proable that its the fear that when facing a black suspect, you will find a higher number of Police officers will end up having fear take over when confronting a situation.

You need to understand that your methodology applies both ways and it would by you end up defending Police officers being that much more fearful, based on the number of homicide rates. let alone how many Police officers hav been killed then by blacks as well. Considering many US oficers do know this and actually investigate crimes based on the people committing them and that many people do not end up dying or being shot. Actually shows how well trained US offciers are.

Like I said, by going over board in their training by showing officers gruesome deaths, where a good proportion would have been carried out by blacks. is then also creating a fear, whrere the problem will get worse. So race only applies based on how both officers and blacks fear each over, from their life being taken. That is what leads up to then officers losing control and shoting by panic.

So the bases for your claim Quill applies both ways and why the claim stating that US officers in every case actually murder Blaccks, because they are blacks, is the sort of nonsense that then further incites violence.


Last edited by Didge on Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:50 pm

Right, have a good evening everyone, might be back later

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:15 pm

didge wrote:Nothing stands out other than the reality of 124 of this years 509 killed, had mental health issues. Which clearly if not recognised or understood by the police could easily confuse movements for aggression. Which does happen.

I gather you failed to notice the racial characteristics of the shooter and victim?  That fact alone speaks for itself.

If they were killed, you have no way of testing whether they had mental health issues.  If retroactive health records could have foreseen an issue, they would have most probably been acted upon.  We are so fond of hindsight, but clearly any noted problem was ambiguous at the time, and since the victim is dead they will stay ambiguous.

Mental health is a distraction, away from the fact that the police did not do their job properly.  To be sure, some people out there do have mental health issues.  But why are white mental health issues recognized, and the white man is not gunned down, when so often the black with mental health issues (if so) results in his death?  The race issue persists, and shines through all such alternative theories.

The fact is that there are methods and police tactics out there that are designed to deal with mental health issues and the disturbed patient.  These policemen simply don't know about them, or they have ignored them.  And again, why does this happen so often with the black man?  The race issue persists.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:31 pm

didge wrote:So when you look at homicides and not the percentage population of an ethniic group to then base a claim that more blacks are 12 times more likely to be shot by the Police for example, but then the same principle will reply in reverse for the police officers, who will see that using the lefts logic. Then homicides commited by Blacks far exceeds their percentage population.

This is essentially the same old racist argument that confirms the white presumptions.  It doesn't prove anything about race.  Because blacks are gunned down by police disproportionately, they must (presumptively) be involved in crime disproportionately.  It fails to recognize that the police are not passive agents, but are selecting blacks as suspects more frequently.  It's called racial profiling.

It's faux self-validation.  You start with a premise that the police are neutral and non-biased, and lo, you end up with a conclusion that they are neutral and non-biased.

But we have see with our own eyes that this is not true.

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:Nothing stands out other than the reality of 124 of this years 509 killed, had mental health issues. Which clearly if not recognised or understood by the police could easily confuse movements for aggression. Which does happen.

I gather you failed to notice the racial characteristics of the shooter and victim?  That fact alone speaks for itself.

And as seen you failed top address every single point I made. Mental health is completely valid, as again people with mental health issues will in many cases when confronted become aggressive, which if not known it is the mental health attributing to the aggressive behaviou. Again it will increase the levels of fear in the confrontation which can lead to shootings, of which the numbers clearly shows this to be a correlation. What you are blatntly going off is a poor absurd reason. That because the majority of officers are white, that this is the reason why some blacks have been shot and killed, ignoring that this year alone far more whites have actually been shot and killed by the Police. Where in the vast majority of these instances most of the suspects were armed. if people are known to be armed, no matter how well trained you are, its going to increase the adrenaline and raise the fear factor for your own life and that of others round you and why would it do so for officers. As with stats of killers, which is like where Blacks fear that some Police will shoot them. The same happens with officers believeing Blacks will shoot them. Again if you are going to go off a known groups total population and then base a percentage argument on this in comparrison to other racial groups. Then you have to apply all information that will factior within a confrontation that could lead to fear taking control. Its such regressive thinking that fails to understand the core problems here, where the left just apply racism everytime and then remain utterly confused that suich shhotings continue and wioll continue. As a heighten sense of real fear has been created from the US system, that allows so many guns to be on the streets.

So again if and when Police face such risks, you will also increase the chances, espcially applying your racist methodolgy, that according to you and on who commits killings, that people with certain racial characteristics according to you are far more likely to murder you. Where as I understand aspects on what leads to crime and that it has nothing to do with race, as biologically races do not exist, You by your poor methodology give reason for trhe Ploice to fear blacks who are suspect when going off racially on killers.
That is what you fail to grasp. What youa re also ignoring is the levels of crime that are commited percentage wise from each racial group. Which if a again high percentage over that of the Black populatiion commits crime. Then based on your methodology, you would back the Police to actually stop proportionally more black people.

This is why the left simply do not understand what racism is. They are happy to claim something is racist and when applied it ends up making for a very racist position from yourself Quill, thats its because Officers are white, that drives them to shot and kill black people. Its that sort of por c;laims, spread by the left that see a further divide within the US. Clearly as i stated there is racism to be found in many things, including the Police. But to claims black deaths by the Police and only those black killed is doen racially is being blatantly disonest and claiming those latino and white killed  were killed then either by accident or human error. That in itself to state is inherantly racist, when within all the ethnic groups, there will be mistakes, so actions based on a geuine threat of life, human errors caused and created by fear. That you claim that actually only blacks never suffer from any of these causes when shot, they are in fact deliberately shot in each and every case. That sort of dishonesty is then spread through the world of the left and hate and anger grows. Its why we see so many officers being attacked recently, where inflamed claims of racism are being made which they makes all white Police officers as the target of hate. If you applied this reasoning of all white cops to Muslims and terrorism, you would then cllaim the poster is being racist[/quote]

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Re: Snipers take down Police in apparent 'revenge' for Mudering Black men

Post by Didge on Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:02 pm

Original Quill wrote:
didge wrote:So when you look at homicides and not the percentage population of an ethniic group to then base a claim that more blacks are 12 times more likely to be shot by the Police for example, but then the same principle will reply in reverse for the police officers, who will see that using the lefts logic. Then homicides commited by Blacks far exceeds their percentage population.

This is essentially the same old racist argument that confirms the white presumptions.  It doesn't prove anything about race.  Because blacks are gunned down by police disproportionately, they must (presumptively) be involved in crime disproportionately.  It fails to recognize that the police are not passive agents, but are selecting blacks as suspects more frequently.  It's called racial profiling.

It's faux self-validation.  You start with a premise that the police are neutral and non-biased, and lo, you end up with a conclusion that they are neutral and non-biased.

But we have see with our own eyes that this is not true.


If you think using percentage stats off numbers is racist., failing to see this is actually what you are doing and that it is by your method that gives then a backing to the Police forming a sterotype. You see you need to learn to read, as you jumped in her on the path of stats based on a percentage of the population. You cannot pick and chose stats, they work both ways, but you reason your argumnents by this, but when applied onto the ethnic group, you claim racism, when you fail to see ho you are endorsing this racism by the flawed method on percentage of the population. So if there are presumptions on both sides based on those who kill and it creates a fear within both. Then traing on understanding race has nothing to do with why people are killers. To hen learn that we should treat people individually.w Wether they are white officers or African Americans, and that the vast majority within these groups. Are not killers, or racists, but both very much plagued by unfounded fears formned from people like you who form unfounded sterotypes that activelly discriminate against them. That this comes from the invented concept of social construct called races. That people should be stopped not based on what ethnic group they come from, but based on sound intelligence, but its very easy to see why it currently does lead to more blacks being stopped if like you are doing, going off the proportional population percenage methodology. That when it is applied as you did in your first post on here today, you have opened and allowed racist flawed reasoning into the areana of this debate as your best evidence to argue you off on.

So all i am doing is applying your method on stats which is inherantly raicst, as this what leads to people constantly forming prejudiced views and both white Police officers and African Americans are the ones who suffer from such increased prejudice.
This is why the stats method based on race populations are indeed racist as they look at people collectivelly based on something which in no way biologically makes us seperate races. So by going off people collectively based on race, we further fuel and proivide the ammunition and fuel that increases hostility and prejudice all around.

Start looking at an issue based on who individually commits them and then find the underlining root cause that led to this, whether it is an ideology, belief, fear, hate etc and whether the left over the last few days have certainy increased the levels of fear and prejudice as well as those om the right, with both going off the proportional populations percentage stats game.

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