TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

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TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

Post by Didge on Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:30 am

Dhaka, Baghdad, Istanbul, Medina. The evil arm of Islamist terror associated with Islamic State reached out to murder people throughout the world in the past week. In Iraq and Saudi Arabia, the murderers struck as Muslims were breaking their fast during Ramadan. In Turkey and Bangladesh, the killers targeted foreigners.

With the attacks come the usual bevy of excuses. “When terrorists target mosques and Muslims, you know terrorism has nothing to do with Islam,” a friend wrote on Facebook.

This is the Orwellian response to ISIS attacks – the more they kill in the name of religion, the less religious they are. In Bangladesh, the authorities won’t even admit that Islamic State inspired the attack despite the photos of six attackers posing, smiling, with guns and the black flag. It’s a “home grown” group, they say.

Remember the stories about how “ISIS captors didn’t have a Koran” or they couldn’t quote the Koran, which ostensibly provided evidence that they were not really into religion? In Dhaka, the murderers asked hostages to recite the Koran, which means the perpetrators were versed in it.

With Dhaka, the media has made a conscious effort to downplay the heinous crime. CNN writes: “In a perverse gesture, the gunmen separated the Muslims from the non-Muslims... the non-Muslims didn’t fare well.” They were hacked to death. The BBC said they were “tortured” if they couldn’t recite the Koran.

The media doesn’t want to show blood-stained floors or describe the injuries because that might make the public aware of the nature of the evil perpetrated. Auschwitz details you can know, and how the KKK lynched, you can know, but what happened at the Holey Artisan Bakery is left to the imagination.


It’s okay, the same was done about the mass murder at West Gate in Nairobi, when Muslims and non-Muslims were separated, or in Mumbai.

They kill non-Muslims for being non-Muslim, and they kill Muslims for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

There are two levels of denial regarding ISIS and other Islamist terrorist groups. One involves the Pavlovian response that they are not Islamic.

The second involves media purposely toning down the crimes and turning the attackers into “militants.”


The crown prince of Abu Dhabi condemned the attacks in Saudi Arabia, saying that “it’s time we work together to save our religion from these deadly criminal gangs.”

But they aren’t criminal gangs; they are religiously inspired, mostly wealthy and privileged mass murderers.

You may think they’ve misread their religion, like the Inquisition did, but it doesn’t obscure exactly what they are.

Someone I know in the US posted a meme recently: “For all you Christians who demand moderate Muslims confront ISIS, what have you done against the KKK?” Another meme shows Ku Klux Klan members in bed sheets juxtaposed with ISIS and says” “If you don’t think these people represent Christians, why do you think these people represent Muslims?” I don’t think the KKK represents all Christians, but it is undeniably a Christian organization. Confronting it solely in this context, confronting it by its own people is what defeated the KKK. But if it were like ISIS, it would control several parts of several countries and be killing hundreds of people a week and selling black women as slaves.

The KKK isn’t doing that precisely because it was confronted on its own terms. Any Christian pastor who, after watching a KKK bombing of a black church, simply said “they aren’t Christians” wouldn’t have been doing enough against the KKK.

The “thoughts and prayers” brigade that emerges after every terror attack doesn’t do anything to confront evil, either. After the Dhaka killings, people made signs saying “No more terror, we want peace.” But for years now, Bangladesh has been beset by numerous targeted killings of secular bloggers, Hindus, Buddhists and others. You can’t say “peace” to people coming to hack you to death. You have to hack back.

In Iraq in August 2014, hundreds of thousands of Kurds and Shi’ites marched to the front lines against ISIS. People who fled Sirte in Libya described ISIS members flogging women and crucifying men. Against such evil, only total war is the answer.

Francis Clooney, professor of divinity at Harvard Divinity School, said the answer to the mass murder in Orlando was to fast alongside Muslims because fasting was a “powerful tool” of “resistance.” The academic said that Omar Mateen, the shooter at the gay club, had been a “terrorist dedicating himself to ISIS and its war on America.”

Its “war on America”? That’s a nice way to excuse its crimes. Was the genocide against the Yazidis part of the war on America, professor? When men raped women 10 times a day and burned their children, was that against America? It’s not a war on America; it’s a war on humanity. Fasting won’t cure it (although fasting while shouldering a sniper rifle might help cure it).

Talking about fasting and “thoughts and prayers” and holding candles and saying “peace” is a form of collaboration with ISIS. Those who do nothing to help the victims are siding with perpetrators.

If you don’t want ISIS-style terror to be the wages of the next generation, you have to stop coddling this worldwide mass murder. Stop calling it “militant.” Stop saying it’s “not Islamic.” Stop pretending that its volunteers have some excuse to murder people.

Train security forces to kill terrorists on the spot, not negotiate with them for six hours while they hack people to death. Take every threat against minorities, such as Ahmadis, Shi’ites, Kurds, secular people and others as a sign of more extremism to come. Admit that terrorism is a weapon of the privileged and wealthy, not of the underprivileged, and that its supremacist origins lie in religious extremism, much as the KKK’s views were a toxic blend of religion and racial supremacy.

Terrorists want to be given the credit of being “militants” as if they are fighting a war, but raping women and beheading innocent people is not a war. It’s murder.

Abolish this phrase “thoughts and prayers.” Victims of ISIS don’t need “thoughts and prayers” anymore than people in Auschwitz needed them. They want to be liberated.

They want action, not thoughts.

The terrorists are always smiling in their pre-murder videos. It’s the smile of people who feel they have a right to decide who lives and who dies. That smile and that “right” need to be removed.


http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/TERRA-INCOGNITA-Denial-ISIS-wins-when-you-are-silent-459586





Do you know what the inaction by the world against ISIS reminds me of?
How the exact same happened with the aggressions of Nazi Germany, that saw the annexation of lands, and the European nations pandering to Hitler believeing they could achieve peace by dealing with such hate. When will the world learn from history, where we could go in tomorrow and literally destroy ISIS in a matter of days, as we did when we invaded Iraq and they had a far more organized army? When is this going to sink in that people are suffering daily under not only ISIS but other Islamist groups, who's sole intent, is the global domination of a neo-conservative religious ideology. Again they fail to see that unless you crush and I mean literally crush and destroy a group, where you show no mercy, are you ever going to be able to aslo win the propaganda war that we are constantly losing. They are able to promote the west as weak and play off are ideals, which never stopped us before from totally destroying a very real threat like Nazi Germany and Japan. It calls upon having to make tough decisions, but ones that will lead to breaking the hold that Islamism has at present due to our ineffective stance taken about them. Muslim nations hav to more than any step up to take on this conflict as well, but as seen they are themselves locked in a Middle East conflict over Shia and Sunni Domination within Islam. Through some really daft view, that this will just create more willing terrorists and if that really is the case, then there is something very fundementally wrong with the ideology of Islam. Which will further require that we act strongly and not weak in order to defeat such an enemy.

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Re: TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

Post by nicko on Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:46 am

Do unto ISIS AS THEY WOULD DO UNTO YOU, ONLY DO IT FIRST.
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Re: TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:31 pm

nicko wrote:Do unto ISIS AS THEY WOULD DO UNTO YOU,      ONLY DO IT FIRST.

Just don't use any of my tax money doing it.

One could interest, say, an NGO such as the Heritage Foundation, to go fight these private wars. A mercenary army would be ideal in this situation.

Tax funds are better spent on needed things at home.

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Re: TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

Post by Didge on Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:33 pm

Original Quill wrote:
nicko wrote:Do unto ISIS AS THEY WOULD DO UNTO YOU,      ONLY DO IT FIRST.

Just don't use any of my tax money doing it.

One could interest, say, an NGO such as the Heritage Foundation, to go fight these private wars.  A mercenary army would be ideal in this situation.  

Tax funds are better spent on needed things at home.


Yep the chamberlain effect, do naff all and hope the problem goes away.

Been, there, seen that and done the picture, that time it caused 50 million deaths.

Your tax funds wont count for shit if you end up dead through a terrorist act or becuase of your inability to back force being used where people are suffering daily.

How many more times are people going to die daily for you to learn value a human life, over that of your own money?>

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Re: TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:02 pm

Didge wrote:Your tax funds wont count for shit if you end up dead through a terrorist act or becuase of your inability to back force being used where people are suffering daily.

Domestic crime is a police matter.  If I walk into a bank I could be killed by a bank robber.  I'd still expect the police to take care of the matter.

ISIS is a problem in Syria, and perhaps extending into Europe.  Our police do not patrol Europe or Syria.  I do not live there.

But none of it is grounds for a foreign adventure for our military.  ISIS disturbances here in the US are of the home-grown variety, and they are well handled by the local police.  Now I realize that the real reason we don't intervene in the Syrian matter is that the Republican Congress refuses to fund it.  But independent of that, I applaud the restraint.  We are not threatened militarily, nor do we want to conquer Syria. We would have no purpose being there.

So our military has no business in the matter.  All we would be doing is killing other babies, anyway.  That's not a productive way to spend your time and money.

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Re: TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

Post by Didge on Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:09 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:Your tax funds wont count for shit if you end up dead through a terrorist act or becuase of your inability to back force being used where people are suffering daily.

Domestic crime is a police matter.  If I walk into a bank I could be killed by a bank robber.  I'd still expect the police to take care of the matter.

ISIS is a problem in Syria, and perhaps extending into Europe.  Our police do not patrol Europe or Syria.  I do not live there.

But none of it is grounds for a foreign adventure for our military.  ISIS disturbances here in the US are of the home-grown variety, and they are well handled by the local police.  Now I realize that the real reason we don't intervene in the Syrian matter is that the Republican Congress refuses to fund it.  But independent of that, I applaud the restraint.  We are not threatened militarily, nor do we want to conquer Syria.

So our military has no business in the matter.  All we would be doing is killing other babies, anyway.  That's not a productive way to spend your time and money.


You are going off imaginary boundaries as if a reason to only help some and not others.
Which is flawed, racial, tribalistic and abundentally stupid, as if you care to help those within your imaginary borders, the same reason to help them applies outside them. If you are killed by a terrorist it is a terrorist crime, no matter if dealt with domestially, its root cause is not only in the Middle East but at the source of whoi is directing the hate campaign of violence.Again your understanding of conflict and suffering is so shockingly poor it goes off a belief that because of being on an area of geography, excuses you and the world of doing what is right against an organisation that is daily murdering and persecuting others to the exten little girls are being raped. Do you know as stated at least 2 million German women were raped in the advance of the Russians, with at least 10% of these women being unable to live with themselves after their ordeal. That they committed suicide.

Again your ability to understand or even use empathic intelligence shows why you would rather allow such suffering to continue, when we can actually do something about this. Its the same daft lunacy of pacifism, as it allows countless to suffer and even more to suffer because people are selfish based of tribalistic views based around geography.We as humans have every buisness in the matter as all you are making is a racial argument not to help people based on imaginary boundaries


Last edited by Didge on Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:15 pm

Nothing here. Think I'll go grab a quick lunch.

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Re: TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

Post by Didge on Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:Nothing here.  Think I'll go grab a quick lunch.


lol copout, best you do run, is what the left do best.

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Re: TERRA INCOGNITA: Denial, ISIS wins when you are silent

Post by Didge on Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:57 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

https://youtu.be/Vop1ZNIc_j8


One aspect of the emergence of Shariah, or Islamic law, into the forefront of public debate is that those trying to understand radicalization or more broadly the role of Islam in the public sphere have had to deal more seriously with the question of Islamic education and the role that specific belief structures—from Sufi to Salafi and everything in between—might play in somehow containing or shaping forms of Islamic practice.

This relates to the endless, and often frustrating, back-and-forth over whether or not ISIS is "really Islamic." One side of this debate has rightly noted that most of ISIS’s foreign recruits are not religiously literate. Recent revelations of ISIS internal memoranda appear at first glance to support this assertion.

This mass disclosure of documents catalogs foreign recruits to the Islamic State, including in sometimes minute detail their personal information, past histories, and motivations for joining the fight. Thus far, it is largely journalists who have explored the documents, and they have done a good job of finding interesting information and aggregating initial trends. This is especially true when a journalist with deep experience and research skills like Yassin Musharbash goes in-depth with a collection of 3,000 of these documents. One of the elements that Musharbash noted in his initial distillation is that a large majority of ISIS recruits rank their own knowledge of the Shariah as "weak", and relatively few of these fighters seem to have advanced training in the Shariah.

Based on past debates about radicalization and the intersection between belief and jihadist recruitment, it seems likely that at least some observers will conclude from these documents that ISIS and its recruits are cynically using religion or that the phenomenon really has nothing to do with religion. However, such a conclusion would be unwarranted based on the evidence available, and takes a far too simplistic approach to understanding the complexity of the Shariah and Islamic knowledge in general.

The relative weakness of someone's knowledge of the Shariah does not necessarily say much about how religious they are or want to be. For one thing, a depth of knowledge of the Shariah is not particularly common for observant Muslims, and it is in many ways a construct of outsiders to think that it should be. The old Orientalist academic tradition was built around the close study of texts drafted by learned scholars ('ulama) or well-educated and highly literate Muslims concerned with in-depth issues of exegesis, interpretation, and more. Some of these scholars like Joseph Schacht focused on the study of the Shariah and component legal issues (fiqh), and placed it in many ways at the center of Islamic meaning and life.[1] More recently, although experts like Wael Hallaq have questioned these older understandings of the Shariah, they too have placed it at the center of constructions of morality and practice in pre-colonial societies. Hallaq describes the death of the "Shariah system" that accompanied colonialism as one of the reasons why a certain Islamic past and concept of statehood is simply irretrievable today.[2]


What these descriptions can elide in popular discussion is that deep study of the Shariah was never particularly common among the masses in the Muslim world, and was generally reserved for the 'ulama, who devoted their lives to the study of these issues. Criticizing the depth of someone's religious feeling or even knowledge on the basis of their lack of knowledge of Shariah would be like questioning an American's sense of civic association because they didn't make their career as a lawyer. They might not know anything about the law, but there is much more to a sense of being American than just that. Similarly, religious belief and practice—even in more rigorist forms—is about far more than just the law. Academic debates have sometimes been slow to understand this, particularly when it comes to lazy descriptions of Sufism based on the supposed "mysticism" and lack of religious orthodoxy (however defined) of Sufis that ignores rigorous educational and interpretative training and histories of many Sufi leaders over the centuries.

For ISIS recruits, a weak knowledge of the Shariah could mean many things. It could and does sometimes mean genuine ignorance of even basic religious precepts, but not always. People join militant movements for a variety of intersecting reasons, including belief, politics, economics, and more. Limited knowledge of an area of Islam traditionally left to dedicated experts says little about the contours of individual religious belief; if anything, it reflects our own projections onto others about modernity and education. Someone can be an ardent and even (dare I say) informed believer in the cause and justness of the Islamic State without having much knowledge of the Shariah. And the group is certainly happy to propagate its own interpretations through instruction and the dissemination of texts on the Shariah, but it is more than likely that the people joining the Islamic State were already inclined to support these interpretations.

Moreover, as Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader Amr Darrag argues in Brookings’ Rethinking Political Islam project, one of the challenges for Western analysts in understanding Islamic movements is accepting the role of faith in shaping the actions of the movements’ members. Faith is difficult to define and measure as an analytical category, and it is one reason why the early Orientalist scholars sought refuge in sources they could touch and see.

However, Darrag may overstate his arguments about faith when differentiating between organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood and ISIS. He suggests that "the chasm between the Muslim Brotherhood and those other groups is the Brotherhood’s privileging of faith over utility while not discounting the latter, where other groups, such as ISIS, privilege utility over morality and faith while occasionally discounting the latter in the name of the former." Whether or not this is true from an institutional perspective, we should not discount the role that faith plays in motivating the decisions of ISIS recruits, a faith that may not be dependent on specific religious knowledge or that may actively discount certain interpretations over others, even if these recruits do not think highly of their own learning in the Shariah. Additionally, in discounting faith as a possible motivation for ISIS, Darrag makes the same mistake for which he critiques those writing about the Brotherhood, and assumes an instrumentalization of Islam for political ends while ignoring the possibility that the reverse might be true.

This point brings us to the question of countering recruitment to ISIS and similar organizations. Because of the perception that jihadist recruits were deficient in their knowledge of the "true" religion, a number of figures over the years, ranging from the King of Morocco to the Metropolitan Police's first head of the Muslim Contact Unit =34898#.VwaoIbTm9RE]Robert Lambert to imams and lay Muslims, have argued that a major corrective must come from better Islamic education from ostensibly moderate principles and backgrounds. There is nothing wrong with this argument per se, but it ignores several issues. For instance, recruits to jihadist groups may have thought about and rejected these "moderate" principles and systems of belief before joining, rather than joining because they were simply not aware of other interpretations. Additionally, American, European, and even ostensibly Muslim governments have to varying degrees sought to promote so-called moderates, potentially discrediting these Muslim leaders through their association with government programs.

Finally, these questions about Islamic education and regulating authority structures are far from apolitical. Even though leaders of Muslim countries and communities want to inhibit radicalism and violence, exerting control over religious structures and leaders also means exerting control over believers. Countries like Turkey, Algeria, and Morocco, for instance, have made efforts to take closer control of mosques and appoint pro-government imams partially under the guise of countering radicalization. Morocco has also increasingly framed itself as a counter-radicalization partner not just in Morocco and Europe, but in Sub-Saharan Africa as well. Whether or not these programs and initiatives are effective is a subject for another essay. But these initiatives not only further politicize Islamic education, training, and discourses; they also serve as foreign policy tools for governments to reinforce their legitimacy abroad, further tempting Western governments to ignore issues like corruption and judicial abuses in favor of having strong partners against extremism.


http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2016/04/how-religious-are-isis-fighters-lebovich

I knew Zack would attept to deflect, divert and cover up

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