the other elephant in the room

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the other elephant in the room

Post by Lord Foul on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:37 pm

TTIP

perhaps our friends across the pond should reflect on teh negative effect this had on folks perceptions too

whatever made you think that........ something that virtually allowed BUSINESS in your neck of the wood to overide our national govt if they felt "put out" by any legislation
like say us banning cyclmates (cos they cause liver cancer) or banning YOUR saw tables cos they dont have the safety features WE require

or at an extreme end of things perhaps even overiding our strict and perfectly reasonable gun laws to open up another market for your merchants of death,,,,

would be seen as anything even slightly acceptable?

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:42 pm

Lord Foul wrote:TTIP

perhaps our friends across the pond should reflect on teh negative effect this had on folks perceptions too

whatever made you think that........ something that virtually allowed BUSINESS in your neck of the wood to overide our national govt if they felt "put out" by any legislation
like say us banning cyclmates (cos they cause liver cancer) or banning YOUR saw tables cos they dont have the safety features WE require

or at an extreme end of things perhaps even overiding our strict and perfectly reasonable gun laws to open up another market for your merchants of death,,,,

would be seen as anything even slightly acceptable?

I'm having difficulty following you. The borders of your issue are leaking...are you making a point about cyclamates, saw tables, guns, or what?

Pull it in a little bit, and give me a simple thesis sentence.

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:01 am

ok....

TTIP allowing your BUSINESSES to sue our govt IF we made regulations that they saw as contrary to their interests,
even if these regulations were for the good of or for the H&S of us....

so per examples given
you make a drink sweetened with cyclamate (which is hepatotoxic and carcinogenic) ...so we ban it......BUMP a multi million pound court case...


nah fk off we dont want your product with cyclamate in it...simples

WE require certain safety standards to be implemented....either make your saw tables to them...or dont complain when we say not good enough.........

NOW having a special interest in SOME areas of this matter I have to say harmonising certain standards would be a good thing...your toy regs for instance are not so far from ours , and tbh are in some cases FAR more sensible and far more related to "reality" than the idiotic "E.U regs"

I can give you one of the most contentious as a good example of this if you wish....

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:29 am

Well, it's a very complex - multilayered - issue that due to the WTO {world trade organizations regulations incorporated into the EU treaties} needed serious clarification and simplified wording so that the Regulation used for one countries beef packers were going to be used by 'ALL THE EU BEEF PACKER EXPORTS' and that wasn't the case - not at all.  
 Anyone who does not meet the standards of a respective trade partner will not be allowed to export. This means, for example, that the EU may specify that only a certain quantity of pesticide residue may remain in a tomato that is imported into the EU. Or that a peanut may only contain a certain quantity of fungi (alfatoxins). The criteria that a seatbelt must meet, etc. may also be specified. If the products do not meet the EU standards, they cannot be imported.
Simultaneously, with the elimination of customs duties at the turn of the century, the meaning of standards and technical rules increased drastically. Two reasons are listed for this in the scientific literature: a) industrialized countries that were allowed to protect their products with customs duties in the past, for example, are now protecting their markets through high-quality standards and thus effectively preventing market access for other countries; b) due to increasing incomes and increasingly nuanced consumer behavior, the standards in industrialized countries have changed and been adapted.
At the turn of the century, standards (primarily food safety standards regarding, for instance, pesticide residues, impurity of foodstuffs through fungi, animal diseases, plant diseases, etc.) were a very important subject in the debates at the WTO and in bilateral trade agreements, because many developing countries rightly criticized the fact that the increasingly stricter standards were blocking their newly won potential market access to the markets of the industrialized countries.
Different laws and test methods made it impossible for many developing countries to import into industrialized countries.
For example, in the agricultural sector, there was often a lack of the laboratories necessary to check for pesticide residue quantities or fungi levels. There was a lack of veterinary offices in order to verify that certain animal diseases were not present in the countries (or regions).
However, trade disputes based on standards did not take place only between the North and the South.
Many developing countries did not and do not even have the knowledge, the personnel, or the financial wherewithal to submit complaints to the WTO regarding the standards of industrialized countries. A large part of the trade disputes regarding standards is between industrialized countries.
The WTO stipulates the handling of standards in two agreements: All aspects regarding food safety and animal and plant health are specified in an agreement regarding Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures (SPS agreement). All other standards fall under the agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade (TBT agreement).
Both agreements stipulate rules for handling standards and attempt to establish a balance between a) the need of the respective country to set standards when regulating products and production processes, and b) preventing “unnecessary trade barriers” as it is called by the WTO.
The two agreements define how standards are allowed to be set in order to not be classified as trade barriers. Both agreements accept the international standard-setting organizations – e.g. the Codex Alimentarius, the World Organization for Animal Health (OIE), etc. – as a reference framework and require that countries align their own standard setting with the international guidelines. Deviating from international standards is allowed if the respective government can scientifically verify that there is a hazard to the health of consumers, animals, plants, the environment, etc. If the respective government is not able to provide corresponding scientific documentation, it must either adapt the standard, or, in the event of a complaint by another country, be judged by the WTO Court of Arbitration and assessed to pay a financial penalty. The precautionary principle established in the EU, upon which consumer protection in the EU is based, is not recognized by WTO law.
When countries or institutions such as the EU require standards that other countries classify as trade barriers, these other countries can file a report with the SPS committee or the TBT committee. This will be followed by a bilateral clarification process that will go before the WTO Court of Arbitration if it is not successful. This is what happened to the EU, for example, when it was brought before the WTO Court of Arbitration by the US and Canada because it does not allow any growth hormones in beef production. Because the scientific documentation of the EU could not convince the court of a potential health hazard caused by hormones, the EU was ordered to pay annual financial penalties amounting to US$202 million to the US and C$75 million to Canada. Instead of concrete payments, both countries obtained the right to levy customs duties for EU products that corresponded to this value.
https://us.boell.org/2014/08/28/ttip-selling-out-standards 

And that's just the example for agriculture; that didn't even touch the tip of the ice berg for GMO's and what the 'fear mongering' about generic modified grains have done to the grain industry - even though the world has been modifying the basic grains for well over 100's of years - now it's all a huge 'ORGANIC GRAIN' issue and the population has exploded and we have to feed more starving humans! 

Any way - my 2¢ about TTIP: for each of those 27 members of the EU {still counting UK} they all have their own set standards of laboratories/equipment/technicians/testing standards and their records that they've used for years ...are they accurate - are their equipment infallible - is their data reliable - are their technicians trained properly - is their lab germ free and kept that way    Who the hell knows; and when you're worrying about table ready veggies - E.coli - parasitical things in our meat/poultry/fish/wild game and those shipping boxes are marked that they 'meet the WTO standards the we have no idea if that is true ...people have died from those lies and the lack of being able to even track a shipment from farm to delivery in a foreign country has proven fatal for some humans and it's got to stop!

TTIP won't solve all of those issues ...but it's an attempt to close/unify some serious 27 EU membership WTO guidelines that 'a few select countries were willfully ignoring' while ranting about the 'possibility of hormones in their Canadian/USA supplied beef shipment!

We've caught some of our Fresh Pack food being sprayed with DDT's that were banned back in the 70's but the farmers in those producing countries were still being given the 55gal drums and the labels removed so they didn't know how toxic the spray was either!

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:44 am

thats all very well....

BUT...for instance...where are you going to find the scientific evidence that owning guns is detrimental to health???

on the face of it ...its no more risky than owning a car

YOUR govt has just decided that cyclamates are NOT hazardous WE think they are

YOUR (likely bised and twisted ) scientific evidence says not...ours says yes...

your people would argue that a table saw without splitter and guard is safe
our years of practical exerience proves otherwise

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Difficile est meminisse officium paludes siccare , cum de nocte surrexeritis et asinus tuus alligators ....(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:57 am

Lord Foul wrote:thats all very well....
BUT...for instance...where are you going to find the scientific evidence that owning guns is detrimental to health???
on the face of it ...its no more risky than owning a car
YOUR govt has just decided that cyclamates are NOT hazardous  WE think they are
YOUR (likely bised and twisted ) scientific evidence says not...ours says yes...
your people would argue that a table saw without splitter and guard is safe
our years of practical exerience proves otherwise
Frankly, LF ...I don't know; I do know that even with the TTIP that we all know that those very same countries that are lying/falsifying data/lab tests and shipping out 15+ year old frozen meat products will still continue to do so --- Suspect

And as my specific interests lay in the agricultural side of this issue: farm to table veggies/crops/grains/seeds/seasonings and all of the meat/poultry/fish/pork ...I'm not well versed in just HTH they'll ever come to grips with your issues your listed.

Eddie's asked this question often as well; what was told to be cancerous at one point in our lifetime: red dye/bacon/too many eggs/hair dye ...has now become OK to eat - OK to dye our hair rainbow bright every 6 - 8 weeks as needed. 

That wasn't what I was told for 25+ years   
Japan will refuse our frozen packaged beef if it's not handled/packed/marked/labeled a specific way; between their over the top demands and the MAD COW scare 15 years ago ...it's costing our feed lot - beef breeders lots of time and energy ear tagging those baby calves and tracking that bar coded baby from birth to slaughter just to prove to some Asian dude that that specific Black Angus was NEVER GIVEN ANY HORMONE INJECTIONS EVER!  And if one label slips off any of those boxes wrapped up on any one of those pallets they can and have refused that entire load at the docks right there in Japan harbor!  Twisted Evil

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:12 am

Welll on the agricultural front you have the biggest argument AGAINST TTIP there could ever be.....MONSANTO

also, there is a point in the bit you posted up there that the "precautionary principle" is NOT recognised

which "precautionary principle" means that if something is even suspected of being say mutagenic...it is banned UNTIL its PROVEN SAFE, rather than as you do having 100,000 birth defects before even beginning a law suit to get rid of it (which law suit could take years and another 100,000 .........

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There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


Difficile est meminisse officium paludes siccare , cum de nocte surrexeritis et asinus tuus alligators ....(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:14 am

we like to view things as

"if it MIGHT be dangerous.....dont do it until/unless its shown not to be and/ or the danger can be mitigated sufficiently to make it safe......."


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If at any time in 2016 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up buttercup, cause 2017 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


Difficile est meminisse officium paludes siccare , cum de nocte surrexeritis et asinus tuus alligators ....(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:35 am

British standards were/are usually much higher than other countries... and can continue to be so when out of the EU.



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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:37 am

Lord Foul wrote:Welll on the agricultural front you have the biggest argument AGAINST TTIP there could ever be.....MONSANTO

also, there is a point in the bit you posted up there that the "precautionary principle" is NOT recognised

which "precautionary principle" means that if something is even suspected of being say mutagenic...it is banned UNTIL its PROVEN SAFE, rather than as you do having 100,000 birth defects before even beginning a law suit to get rid of it (which law suit could take years and another 100,000 .........

"Monsanto" is the GMO link: it's what the GMO stink is all about!  Monsanto has been the #1 modified seed grain maker for 30+ years - people just didn't know!

And that 'precautionary principle' you brought up; INDEED 
While Japan is harping about 'we don't want any hormone in our beef supply' - the Slavic Nations within the EU have been one of the biggest anti-American objections for our FDA regulations for their wayward use of exceptional means of bio-hazard contaminates that have been proven to cause birth defects; ie  - nuclear water run off and other toxic water pollutants - chemical sprays - herbicides/fungicides...they just don't see why we get so hyped up about those issues!

I just can't fathom trying to deal with these 27 EU nations regarding such a plethora of humanitarian food & safety issues and price guides & tariffs as well. 

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:43 am

What's your point...?


Are you admitting problems and health risks with any of these things or denying them...!?



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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:49 am

Tommy Monk wrote:What's your point...?
Are you admitting problems and health risks with any of these things or denying them...!?
Not enough chalk boards - not enough stick figures
- not enough play dough - never enough time in the day;
Shit Out Of Luck and way the hell out of patience to keep
trying to explain things to you - you'll just never grasp!
Give it up and just let it go ...ain't no shame in the fact you
just don't know - what you just don't know!

 Now say good night and go TO BED~~~

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:52 am

Tommy Monk wrote:What's your point...?


Are you admitting problems and health risks with any of these things or denying them...!?




Simple straight forward question...


Why not give a simple straight forward answer for a change...!?

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:38 am

@op
and now they have you over a barrell and can pretty much force you to agree to the most crappy conditions.

the EU was by far the lesser of many many evils in this world Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:48 pm

veya_victaous wrote:@op
and now they have you over a barrell and can pretty much force you to agree to the most crappy conditions.

the EU was by far the lesser of many many evils in this world Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


There would have to be serious Prozac patches/marijuana brownie bites/chill pills handed out at the door; when those 27 26 EU nations gather for working out those TTIP finite details Shocked
I just can't imagine the verbiage barriers/translation problems/issues with what's considered an acceptable amount of bacteria/insect parts/plant material in any food products coming out of some of those Slavic Nations that think our FDA is hyper sensitive about such issues! Suspect

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:00 pm

British standards are much higher and when we regain control of our democracy we can have a direct say on restricting other dangerous practices here.


And we can clearly vote against GM foods too!

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Re: the other elephant in the room

Post by eddie on Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:02 pm

Nobody wanted TTIP. Even the remain camp were dubious about it.

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