This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

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This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:32 pm

A brewing power struggle between Lisa Marie Presley and Scientology leader David Miscavige could inflict crippling harm to the controversial “church.”

The only daughter of rock icon Elvis Presley has been slowly pulling herself away from Scientology, to which she was introduced as a child by her mother, since at least 2008, reported Tony Ortega.

Ortega, who served as executive editor of The Raw Story from 2013 until 2015, said Presley has quietly been orchestrating a damaging media campaign against Miscavige as the church slips further into long decline.

Miscavige’s father, Ron Miscavige, will release a “ruthless” memoir May 3 about his own life as the musical director of the hardcore Sea Org sect and his increasingly strained relationship with his son, and he’ll appear April 29 on a “20/20” episode devoted to Scientology.

His 55-year-old son has headed Scientology since founder L. Ron Hubbard’s death in 1986, and he maintains a close — and, according to sources — strange friendship with actor Tom Cruise, probably the most famous member of the church.

The elder Miscavige escaped — literally — four years ago from the church’s International Base near Hemet, California, and two heavily armed private investigators arrested about three years ago near his new home in Wisconsin told police they had been hired by the Church of Scientology to trail him.

Ron Miscavige decided to write the book after that — but first he called Presley, according to Ortega’s sources.

Presley has been nurturing doubts about Scientology for years, but Ortega reported she decided to leave after speaking with Ron Miscavige and others who had escaped Int Base — known as “The Hole” — where the church officials banish their enemies.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/something-huge-is-about-to-go-down-with-scientology-that-could-destroy-the-church-once-and-for-all/

I'd love to see this ruthless, exploitative cult brought to the ground! cheers cheers cheers
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by eddie on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:37 pm

Scientolgy is plain weird actually and I think it harbours some very strange secrets about its members.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:41 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
A brewing power struggle between Lisa Marie Presley and Scientology leader David Miscavige could inflict crippling harm to the controversial “church.”

The only daughter of rock icon Elvis Presley has been slowly pulling herself away from Scientology, to which she was introduced as a child by her mother, since at least 2008, reported Tony Ortega.

Ortega, who served as executive editor of The Raw Story from 2013 until 2015, said Presley has quietly been orchestrating a damaging media campaign against Miscavige as the church slips further into long decline.

Miscavige’s father, Ron Miscavige, will release a “ruthless” memoir May 3 about his own life as the musical director of the hardcore Sea Org sect and his increasingly strained relationship with his son, and he’ll appear April 29 on a “20/20” episode devoted to Scientology.

His 55-year-old son has headed Scientology since founder L. Ron Hubbard’s death in 1986, and he maintains a close — and, according to sources — strange friendship with actor Tom Cruise, probably the most famous member of the church.

The elder Miscavige escaped — literally — four years ago from the church’s International Base near Hemet, California, and two heavily armed private investigators arrested about three years ago near his new home in Wisconsin told police they had been hired by the Church of Scientology to trail him.

Ron Miscavige decided to write the book after that — but first he called Presley, according to Ortega’s sources.

Presley has been nurturing doubts about Scientology for years, but Ortega reported she decided to leave after speaking with Ron Miscavige and others who had escaped Int Base — known as “The Hole” — where the church officials banish their enemies.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/something-huge-is-about-to-go-down-with-scientology-that-could-destroy-the-church-once-and-for-all/

I'd love to see this ruthless, exploitative cult brought to the ground! cheers cheers cheers

I wonder what people would say, if you said that of Islam or Judaism or Christianity for that fact?

I look forward to the day, one without any organized religion

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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:54 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
A brewing power struggle between Lisa Marie Presley and Scientology leader David Miscavige could inflict crippling harm to the controversial “church.”

The only daughter of rock icon Elvis Presley has been slowly pulling herself away from Scientology, to which she was introduced as a child by her mother, since at least 2008, reported Tony Ortega.

Ortega, who served as executive editor of The Raw Story from 2013 until 2015, said Presley has quietly been orchestrating a damaging media campaign against Miscavige as the church slips further into long decline.

Miscavige’s father, Ron Miscavige, will release a “ruthless” memoir May 3 about his own life as the musical director of the hardcore Sea Org sect and his increasingly strained relationship with his son, and he’ll appear April 29 on a “20/20” episode devoted to Scientology.

His 55-year-old son has headed Scientology since founder L. Ron Hubbard’s death in 1986, and he maintains a close — and, according to sources — strange friendship with actor Tom Cruise, probably the most famous member of the church.

The elder Miscavige escaped — literally — four years ago from the church’s International Base near Hemet, California, and two heavily armed private investigators arrested about three years ago near his new home in Wisconsin told police they had been hired by the Church of Scientology to trail him.

Ron Miscavige decided to write the book after that — but first he called Presley, according to Ortega’s sources.

Presley has been nurturing doubts about Scientology for years, but Ortega reported she decided to leave after speaking with Ron Miscavige and others who had escaped Int Base — known as “The Hole” — where the church officials banish their enemies.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/something-huge-is-about-to-go-down-with-scientology-that-could-destroy-the-church-once-and-for-all/

I'd love to see this ruthless, exploitative cult brought to the ground! cheers cheers cheers


I certainly hope so, they are a really sinister cult


Remember seeing this when it came out

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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by eddie on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:56 pm

He's weird
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by eddie on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:58 pm

Sass can you post the link for that video up please
I want to share it with someone
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:00 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=atCirERsJr0


If there is a youtube posted, if you RH click on it, copy video URL comes up.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by eddie on Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:07 pm

sassy wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=atCirERsJr0


If there is a youtube posted, if you RH click on it, copy video URL comes up.

Lol I know I just have a heck of a time c&p'ing from my iPad at times that's why I hardly post pics to stories

Thanks btw
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:09 pm

No worries.
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One of the BEST links for reading about famous critics & Scientology

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:07 pm

Near the end of the home page is a alphabetical listing of famous and general lesser known people that have been associated with Scientology and the problems...
Andreas Heldal-Lund, owner of xenu.net, exposing the Church of Scientology's abuses online since 1996.

Hubbard couldn't handle any criticism. He rather resorted to attack the character of the persons expressing criticism instead of reasonably countering their arguments. And this way of dealing with opposing views is actually part of the Scientology scripture, which explains why Tom Cruise would rather describe as "bigots" the people expressing critical views about many Scientology practices and beliefs. He is not allowed to question whether or not their criticism is actually worth investigating. As per Hubbard, critics of Scientology are criminals.
This is what Ron L Hubbard had to say about people that were criticizing Scientology and what he want his followers to say to those critic's> > > 
People who attack Scientology are criminals.
— L. Ron Hubbard, LRH ED 149 INT, 2 Dec 1966, "Branch 5 Project, Project Squirrel"
Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her crimes, known and unknown. And act completely confident that those crimes exist. Because they do.
— L. Ron Hubbard, HCOB of 5 November 1967, "CRITICS OF SCIENTOLOGY"
http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/

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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:10 pm

I think that sums up in a nutshell what they are.  I find them extremely scary and was very angry when they were recognised as a religion over here, because they are not, they are a violent controlling cult.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Miffs2 on Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:16 pm

eddie wrote:
sassy wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=atCirERsJr0


If there is a youtube posted, if you RH click on it, copy video URL comes up.

Lol I know I just have a heck of a time c&p'ing from my iPad at times that's why I hardly post pics to stories

Thanks btw
Me too. I never get a pic or link to work.

Re OP 
Video looks interesting.will watch it
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From the words of the FATHER...

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:45 pm

Ya, know...this is very - very scary; what people with money & influence are able to do to their own families and fellow church members in the name of their 'sky pilot'~~~
Scientology Leader David Miscavige's Father Says
His Son Changed After Joining Church Leadership

By MIGUEL SANCHO Apr 27, 2016, 12:24 PM ET
Ron Miscavige said that by the time his son David Miscavige was 15 years old he wanted to be fully committed to the Church of Scientology.
“He says, ‘I want to go and help L. Ron Hubbard,’” Ron Miscavige told ABC News "20/20." “And I thought to myself… I would be pretty proud of him… So, I said, ‘OK, I’ll help you, whatever I can.’”
At the time, David was already an auditor and a minister of the faith. When David turned 16, he left home and school in Pennsylvania with his family’s consent and went to Scientology’s spiritual headquarters, the Flag Land Base, in Clearwater, Florida, for "Sea Org" training.

The members of the “Sea Organization” or “Sea Org,” are like the clergy of the Scientology. Ron Miscavige would eventually join Sea Org himself, but he said as the years went on something in his son changed.  Ron Miscavige spoke to ABC News in an exclusive interview for “20/20” about his experience as a former Scientologist and about his son David’s rise to power within the Church. Miscavige also talked about his new memoir, “Ruthless: Scientology, My Son David Miscavige, and Me,” out on May 3, which he wrote with Dan Koon, a former Church official who is now a vocal critic.

Ex-Scientologist Lois Reisdorf told ABC News she first met David when she was at Flag looking for recruits to join Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard’s personal elite Sea Org unit called the Commodore’s Messenger Organization.
“Dave was just like a 16-year-old kid,” Reisdorf told “20/20.” “He was very… gung ho. He had a lot of spark.” The Church told ABC News in a statement that Reisdorf’s comments about recruiting David Miscavige are “utterly false.” Before long, David Miscavige was in Hubbard’s circle and moved West without his family where Hubbard, who was also known by his initials LRH, was building new secret bases and shooting Scientology training films. “He [David] ended up being a cameraman,” Reisdorf said. “But in the beginning, we used to call him ‘the kid,’ and LRH would call him ‘the kid.’”

Ron Miscavige wasn’t in Sea Org at the time and doesn’t have direct knowledge of this.

The Church says Hubbard decided early that Miscavige would eventually succeed him.

“Mr. Hubbard viewed David Miscavige as one of his closest and trusted aides, and he essentially groomed him to become the leader of the Church,” said Church lawyer Monique Yingling. “So really while there wasn’t an anointment or anything like that, it was clear to everyone… that David was the person that Mr. Hubbard would want to take the Church forward.”

But that claim is intensely disputed by Church critics. Reisdorf said originally Hubbard wanted the Church to be run by a committee after he died, not one person. But she said that after Hubbard went into seclusion in 1980, David Miscavige’s influence and power grew as he evolved from the Commodore’s Messenger Organization into a Gatekeeper.

“He started to get power and started to pull in people … onto his side, and it ended up being like a coup, where you had half of the management took over and kicked out the other half,” Reisdorf said.

Reisdorf claims she was part of the “other half” and that she was relieved of her executive duties.

“It was a betrayal,” she said.  In a statement to ABC News, the Church said, “Lois Reisdorf was removed from Church staff and expelled in 1982.”

“Hubbard was the one who personally removed Lois Reisdorf from her management post, never to hold an executive position again,” the statement continued. “Hubbard found that she had ‘systematically crashed’ production by issuing destructive orders, … He stripped her of all rank, and assigned her to clean rooms.”

“Her claims regarding Mr. Hubbard’s plans and intentions for the future of Scientology are lies,” the statement said. “She has no knowledge of them, because she had long since been removed.”

Ron Miscavige joined Sea Org in 1985 when his son David, then in his mid-20s, was already established in the Church’s leadership. His father said he learned shortly after he arrived at Sea Org that things were different between them.

“I saw him walking, oh about 20 yards from me,” Ron Miscavige told ABC News “20/20.” “I says, ‘Hey Dave.’ And he turned to me and he looked at me like, ‘Who are you talking to?’ No words were said but that glance told me those days were over. I would never, I could never do that as a father to a son.”

At first, Miscavige said he enjoyed himself. A longtime practicing musician, he joined the Church's Golden Era Productions as a musician and composer and traveled the world. He said he believed he was helping change the world through Scientology. But he said his son's management style reflected his short temper and often involved yelling or shouting, citing one particular incident where he said David yelled at him at a music event for almost an hour in front of other people.

"I'm the one that got him into Scientology. I raised him, good or bad," Miscavige said. "And to come to this? What the hell is this? This is nuts."

The Church insists Ron Miscavige doesn't know much about David's management style because they didn't spend much time together.

When L. Ron Hubbard died in 1986, David officially became the head of the Church, taking the title of Chairman of the Board. "There were no checks and balances on him [David], at a certain point, where he could just go ahead," Ron Miscavige said. "He just assumed that power. And he had an authoritarian figure. He was a great talker.... he used to say, 'You have power if people will listen to you.' And people did listen to him."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/scientology-leader-david-miscaviges-father-son-changed-joining/story?id=38703114
Friday night's '20-20' is going to be very interesting...

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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:58 pm

Presume 20-20 is a tv programme over there.   I hope we will be able to see it online later, as I have been interested since the 70s in the machinations of scientology.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by eddie on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:11 pm

Any of it on YouTube, I wonder?
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:20 pm

eddie wrote:Any of it on YouTube, I wonder?

Might be after the episode airs on Friday night's 20/20 showing...I'll check and put it up here if it does have a YouTube link.

Despite how some fellow members feel about the bashing of religion that happens; there are just some 'FAKE FAITHS' like this one that need to be brought DOWN and snuffed out of business!  IMHO, they do more harm then good for their fakery!

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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by eddie on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:33 pm

I tend to agree, it seems more and more like a cult, than a religion to me though.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by HoratioTarr on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:38 pm

eddie wrote:Scientolgy is plain weird actually and I think it harbours some very strange secrets about its members.

On one of the main thoroughfares where I live, was a Church of Scientology 'shop' where this odd grubby guy used to stand outside with a clipboard asking passersby if they wanted to partake of a psychology test.  The fact that he looked like a fucking Picasso painting and had one leg shorter than the other didn't strike any irony deep into the heart of whoever sent the poor sap out there to flag down the unsuspecting.  I mean, if you want to impress people and make friends, try having a boil wash first.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:39 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
eddie wrote:Any of it on YouTube, I wonder?

Might be after the episode airs on Friday night's 20/20 showing...I'll check and put it up here if it does have a YouTube link.

Despite how some fellow members feel about the bashing of religion that happens; there are just some 'FAKE FAITHS' like this one that need to be brought DOWN and snuffed out of business!  IMHO, they do more harm then good for their fakery!


That would be great, ta.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by eddie on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:43 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
eddie wrote:Scientolgy is plain weird actually and I think it harbours some very strange secrets about its members.

On one of the main thoroughfares where I live, was a Church of Scientology 'shop' where this odd grubby guy used to stand outside with a clipboard asking passersby if they wanted to partake of a psychology test.  The fact that he looked like a fucking Picasso painting and had one leg shorter than the other didn't strike any irony deep into the heart of whoever sent the poor sap out there to flag down the unsuspecting.  I mean, if you want to impress people and make friends, try having a boil wash first.

Hahahahahaha you do have a point there
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Syl on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:45 pm

sassy wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/something-huge-is-about-to-go-down-with-scientology-that-could-destroy-the-church-once-and-for-all/

I'd love to see this ruthless, exploitative cult brought to the ground! cheers cheers cheers


I certainly hope so, they are a really sinister cult


Remember seeing this when it came out


I just watched this video....it's hard to conclude what is conspiracy theory, lies and truth.
But one thing is for sure...something really horrible goes on between powerful people. I would not be surprised if the higher ups in the freemasons, and the so called illuminati are not all tied up in the religious cult of scientology.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by HoratioTarr on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:03 pm

Syl wrote:
sassy wrote:


I certainly hope so, they are a really sinister cult


Remember seeing this when it came out


I just watched this video....it's hard to conclude what is conspiracy theory, lies and truth.
But one thing is for sure...something really horrible goes on between powerful people. I would not be surprised if the higher ups in the freemasons, and the so called illuminati are not all tied up in the religious cult of scientology.

There's something inherently sinister about Scientology, or any cult for that matter. The control principal, the handing over of money, the it's our way or the highway. I hate that stuff. And it never fails to amaze me when people fall for all the chuff.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:05 pm

People do fall for it though - from their own choice. They're not forced to become a Scientologist.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Syl on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:31 pm

Some of it is hard to believe.
Children who they had a hold over were naked and hunted, caught, raped and even murdered on video....which were then sold as snuff movies.

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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:32 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:People do fall for it though - from their own choice. They're not forced to become a Scientologist.


Wrong, they are conned into going 'to have a look' and then they use brain washing techniques to indoctrimate them, if they try to leave they are threatened.

Have a look at this:

http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/7.htm
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:33 pm

Syl wrote:Some of it is hard to believe.
Children who they had a hold over were naked and hunted, caught, raped and even murdered on video....which were then sold as snuff movies.



With the other things I have read about that there has been back up for, I wouldn't doubt it.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Syl on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:33 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:People do fall for it though - from their own choice. They're not forced to become a Scientologist.
Apparently they used the same brain washing techniques and hallucinatory drugs as the CIA.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Syl on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:36 pm

sassy wrote:
Syl wrote:Some of it is hard to believe.
Children who they had a hold over were naked and hunted, caught, raped and even murdered on video....which were then sold as snuff movies.



With the other things I have read about that there has been back up for, I wouldn't doubt it.

There is back up, the French little boy on the video who told his mother when he visited his dad he and his friends dressed up in masks and robes (he recognised his dads voice) and abused him. He said his dad had raped him several times.
He wasn't believed but then pics were found of the little boy being raped on porn sites.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:42 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:People do fall for it though - from their own choice. They're not forced to become a Scientologist.


Wrong, they are conned into going 'to have a look' and then they use brain washing techniques to indoctrimate them, if they try to leave they are threatened.

Have a look at this:

http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/7.htm

I don't believe in brain washing. I think people do what they want to do. If they're searching for something, they may well feel that Scientology answers their questions.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Syl on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:46 pm

I believe the mind can be twisted into thinking in a certain way, especially if drugs are used....it stands to sense really.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:48 pm

Syl wrote:I believe the mind can be twisted into thinking in a certain way, especially if drugs are used....it stands to sense really.


Absolutely.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:50 pm

Syl wrote:
sassy wrote:


With the other things I have read about that there has been back up for, I wouldn't doubt it.

There is back up, the French little boy on the video who told his mother when he visited his dad he and his friends dressed up in masks and robes (he recognised his dads voice) and abused him. He said his dad had raped him several times.
He wasn't believed but then pics were found of the little boy being raped on porn sites.


Absolutely vile.   That's why I was so angry when this country allowed it to be called a religion and allowed scientologist to have a recognised scientology wedding.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Syl on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:54 pm

sassy wrote:
Syl wrote:

There is back up, the French little boy on the video who told his mother when he visited his dad he and his friends dressed up in masks and robes (he recognised his dads voice) and abused him. He said his dad had raped him several times.
He wasn't believed but then pics were found of the little boy being raped on porn sites.


Absolutely vile.   That's why I was so angry when this country allowed it to be called a religion and allowed scientologist to have a recognised scientology wedding.
Who passes these laws Sassy?
Makes you think doesn't it?
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:05 pm

Syl wrote:I believe the mind can be twisted into thinking in a certain way, especially if drugs are used....it stands to sense really.

If illegal drugs are being used, that's a different matter. If people are taking them voluntarily it's their own fault though.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by eddie on Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:12 pm

I just watched that video too

Absolutely mind blowing.

I hope lost of people watch this
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:50 am

sassy wrote:
Presume 20-20 is a tv programme over there.   I hope we will be able to see it online later, as I have been interested since the 70s in the machinations of scientology.

THAT American 20-20 programme appears on one of the local networks extra 'free to air' digital channels in the early hours down here...

WHEN they have a story that might be interesting or topical, sometimes the TV network here moves it to a prime time slot on its main channel..

AS WELL as YouTube, maybe that 20-20 programme's own site keeps links to recent shows for a certain time ?
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:09 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:


Wrong, they are conned into going 'to have a look' and then they use brain washing techniques to indoctrimate them, if they try to leave they are threatened.

Have a look at this:

http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/7.htm

I don't believe in brain washing. I think people do what they want to do. If they're searching for something, they may well feel that Scientology answers their questions.

Smile

THE CORRECT DEFINITION of "brainwashing" is the forced mind altering effects to change peoples way of thinking -- as used by Germans during WWII, and regimes like Soviet Russia and communist Vietnam during the "Cold War" years -- involving the use of torture, sleep and sensory deprivation, and sometimes psychadelic and hallucinogenic drugs...

WHEN people freely and openly allow themselves to be influenced into believing some ridiculous, loopy and often plain wrong philosophy, belief system or cultish dogma -- like Scientology, ISIS, Creationism/'ID', or Veganism, for example - the correct term could more properly be voluntary 'Indoctrination'.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:32 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't believe in brain washing. I think people do what they want to do. If they're searching for something, they may well feel that Scientology answers their questions.

Smile

THE CORRECT DEFINITION of "brainwashing" is the forced mind altering effects to change peoples way of thinking -- as used by Germans during WWII, and regimes like Soviet Russia and communist Vietnam during the "Cold War" years -- involving the use of torture, sleep and sensory deprivation, and sometimes psychadelic and hallucinogenic drugs...

WHEN people freely and openly allow themselves to be influenced into believing some ridiculous, loopy and often plain wrong philosophy, belief system or cultish dogma -- like Scientology, ISIS, Creationism/'ID', or Veganism, for example - the correct term could more properly be voluntary 'Indoctrination'.            

I wouldn't even call it that. I would call it people voluntarily joining an organisation because it offers something that they want. If they subsequently decide that it does not, they should just move on and look for answers elsewhere, or preferably within themselves.

This kind of thing happens all the time. Several years ago there was a movement against a certain Buddhist organisation whereby people who had joined it became disillusioned and made certain accusations against the organisation, and a row developed on both sides.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:09 am

Rags, do you understand that hypnosis and sleep deprivation alter your perceptions and stop you thinking properly, sleep deprivation also giving you hulluncinations?   Methods used in conjunction by Scientology, among other things.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:17 am

sassy wrote:Rags, do you understand that hypnosis and sleep deprivation alter your perceptions and stop you thinking properly, sleep deprivation also giving you hulluncinations?   Methods used in conjunction by Scientology, among other things.

If they're kidnapping people and forcing them to stay awake, forcibly hypnotising them or force feeding them drugs, that's a matter for the courts.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:25 am

Of course it's a matter for the courts, but in order to bring a prosecution, you have to have witnesses and evidence.  If the witnesses have been coerced and made to think that terrible things will happen to them if they spill the beans, then that's pretty difficult.   Have you watched either of the videos?   You might have an inkling of what we are talking about then.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:43 am

The people who are allegedly engaged in this "brainwashing" are people who joined the Scientologists and who were allegedly "brainwashed" themselves, so are they abusers or victims?
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:52 am

Rags, do you have any understanding of 'manipulation' and how it works?
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:00 am

sassy wrote:Rags, do you have any understanding of 'manipulation' and how it works?

I take the view that people allow themselves to be manipulated Sassy. I know that the Scientologists do try to manipulate people into joining - they tried that with me. However, you have to want to be manipulated in the first place IMO.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:04 am

Then you obviously have knowledge what so ever.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:06 am

sassy wrote:Then you obviously have knowledge what so ever.

I just said they tried it with me Sassy - which bit of that did you not understand?

Some people are looking for answers, and they are ready to be persuaded to follow a certain course. Then they blame others when it doesn't quite work out the way they wanted it to.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:16 am

Scientology tried it with you?   Because we are not talking about other groups who don't use the same methods.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:18 pm

sassy wrote:Scientology tried it with you?   Because we are not talking about other groups who don't use the same methods.

I do know the difference between Scientologists and other groups thank you.

Look, people get into these things, and then they get disillusioned so they speak out against them. Well they made their choice in the first place. If there is evidence that anyone has been kidnapped, held somewhere against their will, given drugs without their knowledge, or whatever, then they have a case against the people who did it. If they merely changed their mind because it didn't live up to their expectations or "cure" them of whatever unhappiness they had, they don't. I would think that very few people haven't heard the negative stuff about Scientology, so it's up to them to say no if they don't like the sound of it.
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by sassy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:54 pm

So it wasn't Scientology then?
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Re: This could be the beginning of the end for Scientology

Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:40 pm

sassy wrote:So it wasn't Scientology then?

Yes it was.
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