Gay people coming out.

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Post by Guest on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

Good evening Folks.

I've often asked gay posters why they feel the need to come out & my question is always met with the usual vitriolic response that I'm homophobic etc.......which is why I then take the mick out of them.

Therefore,I've just had a quick browse & came up with these comments from a poster on another forum...details withheld.And titled...

WHY DO GAYS FEEL THE NEED TO COME OUT?

..I'm a gay man in my upper 40s. Though I never made a big dramatic coming out announcement, everyone in my life knows I'm gay because I simply lived my life, pursued happiness as I saw fit, and let others draw their own logical conclusions. The only time I've ever said "I'm gay" to anyone was when they asked for clarification of my orientation [despite my campy profile name here, I'm actually quite masculine].

I have long considered coming out to be something that belabors a simple fundamental part of the person -- and frankly, it almost seems like the person is rationalizing something, or apologizing, or even begging for acceptance. I guess I was lucky to be raised by parents who brought me up to be an independent thinker -- I have self-confidence and thereby don't seek validation from others. When I've encountered someone who expressed disapproval of me simply for being gay, that has hardly crushed me or ruined my day; I usually just feel sorry for them for being so narrow-minded.

Sure, I'm different from my straight neighbor -- but that means that he is also different from me. Neither of us is superior or inferior to the other. So if straight people don't feel the need to go around announcing their orientation, why the hell are we compelled to do so?

One other thing -- why is sexual orientation really even that important to others? I don't give a damn what anyone else does in private. Think about it -- if a person has sex one hour every day, that is only 1/24 of their life. Even if you take out the eight hours they sleep, that's still leaves only 1/16 of their life. Those are really tiny fractions to despise someone for, don't you agree?

Additional Details

I'm certainly not advocating for being in the closet or being ashamed of who we are. Indeed, the point I was making is that we should just live openly and not feel like we're required to proclaim public clarifications of our sexuality -- we should just live our lives without having to explain anything about ourselves.

.............The comments made by the poster who seems like a decent bloke reinforce my feelings about the need to come out & the big hoo har that goes with it.

Why do some gays feel that they need to be 'validated'?

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Post by Guest on Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:22 am

veya_victaous wrote:@Grumpy
you're allowed to use force needed to get them to flee, once fleeing you have to leave them alone you are not allowed to follow or keep attacking them. It is all About threat recognition and Presence, you are only allowed to act if and while they are a threat... the gun laws mean there is no legal reason to have a loaded gun in the house (firing mechanism should be detached and stored in a seperate safe to the rest of the gun) having one on your person means go to jail. So Bill is unlikely to have a gun since he ends up arrested the first time police check him for being suspicious. (that extends to knives as well) this law was introduced when I was in my late teens it dramatically reduced the amount of assults in the area.


For self defense you a limited to what is at hand or unarmed. it isn't the best and police generally are assholes that would prefer that you let Bill stab you so they have an open and shut case. But to be fair Home invasion is very rarly happens to 'innocent' people here, generally a crim on crim crime related to control of drug markets etc.

well that sounds a bit like over here, however we have got to the point of "If however, you just happened to be cleaning your gun when bill boy came calling........."

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:03 am

veya_victaous wrote:@Quill
No I blame the USA for the KKK, You guys made them. you seem to beleive that All people are as inherently Racist as Americans, we are not, Not all White people have the same History. Not all people have the same now either, Some of Us are getting past 150 years ago (considering that is 40 years older than our nation, it's not hard).  

I Dont blame the Guns themselves I blame the Society that allows them to be so preveleant amoungst them with so little saftey controls. There will Always be evil stupid dickheads whether they are killing a kid for the colour of his skin or shooting up a bunch of school kids, you can prevent the evil stupid dickhead killing as many people as easily IF you dont give him access to a gun. (end of story, no point arguing the best way to shut the gate if the horse has bolted) the USA has decided not to take the sensible action to prevent these events. I don't blame the gun I blame the people that though letting him have access to a gun was an acceptable risk, if it allowed themselves access to a gun too.

Do you Blame the Young African American from the Ghettos for the Gang Crime? or do you see them as a product of the society in which they are raised? if so why don't you extend the same to the poor dumb redneck hicks of southern USA? I do, I isn't the individuals fault they were raised in an community that idolises ignorance and allows the religon to contaminate education. Why the hell is someone teaching creationism in Science, It isn't science.
The point.. It is much easier to beleive that your race is better if you beleive there is a magic sky giant (who happens to look like your people) that made everything and makes everything happen for a reason. that there is some sort of divine fate or destiny.
It is much easier to accept, even if we are not equal, we are all just trying to live happy, safe lives and want to see our families do well. If you also accept we were all once Apes living in the same jungle and that from a genetic perepective there is virtually no differenece between us racism seem pretty ridiculous. Some Sterotypes may retain some truth, but there is no reason to hate a group just because of their colour.


As I have Said to Ben and Lurker in the past, I truely Feel sorry for Decent Intelligent People that find themsleves living in the USA.

Veya, I feel for you.  Your priorities are so misplaced.  You haven't once touched upon the one, greatest problem in the Trayvon Martin murder.  That is, that a jury of six Southerners sent a message to all the world that it is all right to kill Africans, as long as you come up with a good lie.  Or not...we don't know they wouldn't have acquitted Zimmerman had he pissed in the corner of the Jury box...because it's all right, for them, to murder Africans in any situation.

And here you are, dithering away with some nonsense about firearms or the blame-all-Americans theme.  You have no idea what's going on, with America, or anywhere else I surmise.  You just have this script that you keep repeating, with no regard for priorities of evil.  Shame...not only for being so detached from reality and involved in yourself, but for being so cavalier about a child's life.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:10 am

@quill
you are just whinging, My priorities are misplaced (LOLZ) I am the one sayign Murder is Wrong in ALL cases I am making suggestions to stop Murder. please make a suggestion about how you would fix it so the next trayvon doesn't happen? I have and as just walked thru Mine works, no gun no shooting. It is really not that hard to understand. Or is it more important that some Race issue is identified than stopping people getting killed?

The problem is why is there even a question about possible innocence. he shot some one. You are a racist if you think it makes any differnce whaty colour skin they have, you are just as bad as the jury because YOU see Africans Americans as different, how is Trayvon any different than any other kid? Some one shot a kid, that shoud never be allowed, end of story why is his skin colour being asked about at all? does it make a difference? would it be ok if he was white or yellow? no it make zero fucking difference what the skin colour is, Zimmerman is a murderer, end of story. So I don't know what you want, but I am suggesting ways to stop the next murder regardless of the victims skin colour.
The fact USA have racists is true and you will always have them while people like YOU exists. YOU are a racist too you think things should happen differently if someone is black.


And if really believe there are Evil people in the world that wake up in the morning going 'ok what evil an I going to do today'. Stop watching Kids shows!!! in the real world EVERYONE is a shade of grey at a point between good and evil. Fuck, you probably think sept 11 happen because 'Muslims hate freedom' or some other USA endorsed rubbish.


answer the question

Do you Blame the Young African American from the Ghettos for the Gang Crime?

because you obviously blame young rednecks, they have just as shit an education and little opportunity as the black kid.

That is, that a jury of six Southerners sent a message to all the world that it is all right to kill Africans, as long as you come up with a good lie. Or not...we don't know they wouldn't have acquitted Zimmerman had he pissed in the corner of the Jury box...because it's all right, for them, to murder Africans in any situation.
No, Jury of 6 Americans told the rest of the world America is still struggling with racsim. I'm sorry No one here said 'ohh great now we can kill black people'. If Americans thought that then that just strengthens my argument that the USA is fucked up. And if your countrymen are so fucked up.. why are you giving them access to guns! you must think they are all sane reasonable indiviuals if you think they should be allowed a firearm? or do you think insane psychos should be allowed guns? You cant have it both ways what is your opinion I am struggling to see it. so Zimmerman was a sane reasonable person or Guns are too easy for the insane to get?


And Everyone know whats going on in America!!! You wont fucking let us not!! you fucking take over all our TV stations with your shitty sitcoms. Your companies do all they can to pervert out democracy, always with the fucking lobbyists fucking bribing everyone. YOU cant shit in someone elses house with out them smelling what you had for dinner !!! of course we know what going on in the USA You have a dozen loudmouths blaring about it 24/7 on TV!!!

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:21 am

grumpy old git wrote:
I agree, Its no good focusing on the means of murder, when the motive remains unchecked, I mean, zimmerman could have achieved his intent with a knife, or given the size disparity his bare hands. The fact he shot him as opposed to any other method distracts from the real problem of such a creatures psychology, and the psychology of the society the bred him.

Disagree
because if you take away the means, no one is DEAD.
Also Aussies are just as violent as Americans but we dont have the amount of people get killed (per capita) because we are not allowed weapons.
No Zimmerman couldn't have used a knife with out breaking the law by carrying a knife, we have not just got guns of the street we have got kvinves off the street too.

It is fucking hard to kill someone with barehands it takes a lot longer you really have to be in their face seeing them suffer (or luck and they hit their head on the ground the wrong way), it is not point pull kill from 10 paces.

How can America Start to fix their issues maybe by stopping the retard wannabe heros that get guns and think they will be great heros when 'Evil' people come and they go Phew phew phew. As long as you got a large section of the community that think the guy with a hand gun save lives (he doesn't, doctors save lives not guns) by killing people, you gonna have people killed. And because no one think they are 'evil' themsleves, they of course think they are good old American Heros. In some American's opinion the KKK are the good guys, Zimmerman is probably one of them. Which is why saying 'Evil people' is navie no one thinks they are evil, do US soliders join going 'yay lets go murder for the evil empire' no they obviosusly think they are the good guys. Just like everyone else they think they are the Luke and the guy they dont like is Vader  ::lightsab:: (even when it is clearly the other way)


Last edited by veya_victaous on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:35 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : made star wars reference with using light sabre... bad veya)

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:16 am

Well, guys, the means and the motives are both problems. The U.S. has a racism problem (though not so much worse than in many other developed nations -- mind you, I've been on In a Flap, and check out this crazy shit) and the world's worst gun problem -- at least the first world's.

Zimmerman feared Martin because of the race problem -- if not for that, he'd have left Martin alone whether he had a gun or not. Zimmerman killed Martin because of the gun problem -- I remember the line in Shoot 'Em Up; "Are you a tough guy, or are you a pussy with a gun?" Zimmerman is definitely the latter, and the sad thing is that most of us in the U.S. know somebody who's never going to be satisfied with owning a gun; they're not going to be happy till they get to shoot someone.

Propping up these problems are the vast amounts of money conservatives pump into their causes and the policies they get passed on the basis of them -- you can't even go on a left-wing website from the U.S. without seeing ads from conservative organizations; their pockets are that deep.

In turn, the corporations backing them get lower education spending than we need and tons of pro-gun propaganda, along with the most popular U.S. cable TV outlet -- which I don't have to remind anyone is owned by the World's Worst Australian -- cranking up the fear among those most susceptible to fearmongering and creating this toxic mix of wanting to kill people and being able to kill people.

Blame Americans? Hell, I'd sooner blame a lobster for not knowing that it's boiling alive. Most Americans are just as brainwashed as North Koreans, and just as insidiously, they're told it's freedom.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:21 am

@ben
I agree with what your saying
Blame Americans? Hell, I'd sooner blame a lobster for not knowing that it's boiling alive. Most Americans are just as brainwashed as North Koreans, and just as insidiously, they're told it's freedom.
I also Agree with this but will add a qualification, I do not blame the American Individual but the American People. You will see in my arguments above I do say the Redneck suffers many of the same social difficulties as the African American, lack of education is a Big thing in my opinion, with out it people trust what they are told with out every questioning it in relation to a larger world view. Education is more than just regurgitating facts it is about learning the skill required to find and analyse information.
The American people are a fault on the whole for letting the system get that way, it is a blame that is shared but not equally. You had one of the best nations, you had a strong constitution and wise forefathers. It is such a shame that you are (have) letting it slip through your fingers.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:26 am

owned by the World's Worst Australian
I do suggest that this is the final evidence that Australia is the 'hell' or underworld that is supposed to in the bible. Not only are we 'under' the Eurasia we are really hot and we have more than twice as many serpents that can kill an man in a single bite than the rest of the world put together.

Really the Rise of Dark lord Rupert was inevitable
 Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed 

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Post by Guest on Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:21 pm

My god, true Labour and Democrat supporters indeed:

"My country and it's people are sh1tter than yours and we've done worse things in the past than you".

lol

And all that from a simple gay people coming out thread.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:25 pm

::smthg:: 

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:03 pm

Veya wrote:The problem is why is there even a question about possible innocence. he shot some one. You are a racist if you think it makes any differnce whaty colour skin they have, you are just as bad as the jury because YOU see Africans Americans as different, how is Trayvon any different than any other kid?

He's different because the American Southerners treat Africans differently.  When you analyze, you cant help but think in terms of causation.  Southern racism is what causes these murders.  Trayvon Martin is not just another murder, he was targeted by Southerners.  Admittedly, Zimmerman is only one person, but he is the product of the acculturation that whites get from the North Carolina border down.  They learn, first, that Blacks are second-class...and, second, that it's all right to murder them.

Zimmerman was judged by a southern jury...people just like him.  As such, they committed murder every bit as much as he did.  They are a part of that acculturation: "Oh, you killed a n----r in cold blood?  Go lay low, and we'll get you out of trouble." That's all the remorse they feel.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:10 pm

Veya wrote:So I don't know what you want, but I am suggesting ways to stop the next murder regardless of the victims skin colour.

What you are doing is, in fact, appeasement.  You are attending window dressing.  It reminds me of Nancy Reagan's Just say no program.  Feckless...and useless.  Let's blame it on guns...or the weather...or anything but the guilty.  Kick it upstairs to some noble cause, and let the bad guys off.

It's really not you that angers me. It's an attitude that says lets anesthetize the public and wait it out. Same thing happened with former vice-president Dick Cheney. He is a war criminal, every bit as Robert Mugabe. But Obama, rather than putting him on trial, appeased America and let him walk. It's disgusting.


Last edited by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:17 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Shady wrote:But the guy in the article doesn't seem to share your opinion nor do gay guys that I know.In fact,many gay people are disgusted by the 'coming out'thing because they prefer to keep their business private.

Surely they should have the choice regarding their privacy?

Ooh, I think outing someone against their wishes is a horrible thing to do, a real intrusion on their privacy. At the end of the day, there are things we choose to share about ourselves and things we choose to keep private, and we should be making those decisions for ourselves.

The way I think I can relate to this is being an atheist. Some people in my life know I am, others don't. Some people, I don't want to know. I understand that we talk about one another and sometimes things slip out, but I'd be pissed if anybody intentionally told someone that I didn't want to have that knowledge.

The reason I don't want some people to know about my atheism is because of how they'd react, obviously. I don't need my mother, for example, telling me I'm going to hell, or asking whether I don't think my dad is in heaven. I'd just prefer not to deal with that.

Were I to tell the whole world of my feelings about religion, I'd be facing that from her and who knows else? And if I were a well-known person, I could be facing thousands or millions of such responses.

So obviously it would take a lot of bravery on my behalf. Now if I were gay, I'd likely also be choosing to face the derision of all those people because I wanted people to start thinking that people like myself aren't deviants or whatever other insult a homophobe might use. It would take even more courage. So I think that's why other people feel the need to congratulate people -- not that being gay is in itself an accomplishment, but that being openly gay, in a world in which many people still don't accept homosexuals as equals, is brave. And I think that at some point, every member of a minority that has been oppressed, ostracized or whatever feels like saying, "I am this and I'm okay."

Phenomenal post Ben. Though truly just common sense, there is another forum I use (same as many here) which could do with your common sense and decency. I do however think you are just speaking for most nice people in the UK and USA. But still, very well said  Smile 

Sadly the nuts wont get it  Laughing 
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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:22 pm

Veya wrote:The fact USA have racists is true and you will always have them while people like YOU exists. YOU are a racist too you think things should happen differently if someone is black.

Duck the problem much?  It's not about me, Veya.  Right now, it's that you can't respond, so you start attacking.


Last edited by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:30 pm

Veya wrote:Do you Blame the Young African American from the Ghettos for the Gang Crime?
because you obviously blame young rednecks, they have just as shit an education and little opportunity as the black kid.

That is, that a jury of six Southerners sent a message to all the world that it is all right to kill Africans, as long as you come up with a good lie. Or not...we don't know they wouldn't have acquitted Zimmerman had he pissed in the corner of the Jury box...because it's all right, for them, to murder Africans in any situation.
No, Jury of 6 Americans told the rest of the world America is still struggling with racsim. I'm sorry No one here said 'ohh great now we can kill black people'. If Americans thought that then that just strengthens my argument that the USA is fucked up. And if your countrymen are so fucked up.. why are you giving them access to guns! you must think they are all sane reasonable indiviuals if you think they should be allowed a firearm? or do you think insane psychos should be allowed guns? You cant have it both ways what is your opinion I am struggling to see it. so Zimmerman was a sane reasonable person or Guns are too easy for the insane to get?


And Everyone know whats going on in America!!! You wont fucking let us not!! you fucking take over all our TV stations with your shitty sitcoms. Your companies do all they can to pervert out democracy, always with the fucking lobbyists fucking bribing everyone. YOU cant shit in someone elses house with out them smelling what you had for dinner !!! of course we know what going on in the USA You have a dozen loudmouths blaring about it 24/7 on TV!!!

Where have I heard a rant like this before? So you are the OZ version of Orval Fabus or George Wallace?

The difference is, the rednecks get to go free when they murder Blacks. Take a look at what a Black, Marissa Alexander, gets when she does even less: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:35 pm

Veya wrote:No, Jury of 6 Americans told the rest of the world America is still struggling with racsim. I'm sorry No one here said 'ohh great now we can kill black people'.

But that's exactly what Southern racists are being told.  What about consequences?  When 19 men flew two airliners into the World Trade Center, we went into needless war, killing nearly 5,000 of our own and wasting about $4.4-trillion.  Where's the war when Blacks get victimized? All you want to do is anesthetize the issue by kicking it upstairs, and throwing in a little America-bashing that you think bothers me...I could give a fuck. I already know America is fucked up.


Last edited by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:35 pm

"You can't do anything towards another race without being racist"
-Dumb-asses.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:46 pm

Veya wrote:so Zimmerman was a sane reasonable person or Guns are too easy for the insane to get?

That's exactly what he is not...sane and reasonable. He is surrounded with insanity...it's called Southern racism. If you knew anything about the history of Southern Racism, you would know that the problem is not access to guns. Guns are in the periphery of every event where they are used, but only an idiot thinks that is the malice of the situation. You are just trying to insulate racists from responsibility.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:49 pm

Eilzel wrote:Phenomenal post Ben. Though truly just common sense, there is another forum I use (same as many here) which could do with your common sense and decency. I do however think you are just speaking for most nice people in the UK and USA. But still, very well said  Smile 

Sadly the nuts wont get it  Laughing 

Thanks, Eilzel! I've been thinking about the value of people standing up when they're different, letting people know and not being scared into the closet. We keep talking about how liberated this or that society is as though the coming-out process is now a useless or even counter-productive measure, but what about the rest of the world?

In India, it's no longer a crime to be gay -- as of 2009. We all know the situation in Russia. In Africa there are still a few countries that can put you to death for being gay, or that are discussing passing laws that would enable the death penalty for gays. All throughout the Middle East, homosexuality is a crime.

While places like that of course will make their own laws, the world is connected and people certainly look outside their own borders for better ideas. Every time a world-famous celebrity comes out, it doesn't just affect people who are used to the notion of gay people living freely among them, the news makes its way to places like Iran and might influence their thinking.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:52 pm

Ben wrote:Well, guys, the means and the motives are both problems. The U.S. has a racism problem (though not so much worse than in many other developed nations -- mind you, I've been on In a Flap, and check out this crazy shit) and the world's worst gun problem -- at least the first world's.

No Ben. The US has a racism problem unparalleled in the world. I know what you are trying to say...but it's a false equivalency. On ADO I remember telling sphinx that Britain has a wimp race problem. British racists are like baby wannabees...they look over at the American south, and sometimes want to emulate them. But they have this odd conscience that gets in the way. They have no idea how to be that cruel.

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Post by Guest on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:54 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Veya wrote:so Zimmerman was a sane reasonable person or Guns are too easy for the insane to get?

That's exactly what he is not...sane and reasonable.  He is surrounded with insanity...it's called Southern racism.  If you knew anything about the history of Southern Racism, you would know that the problem is not access to guns.  Guns are in the periphery of every event where they are used, but only an idiot thinks that is the malice of the situation.  You are just trying to insulate racists from responsibility.  

When me,she who must be obeyed & our kids visited Florida,we were always well treated by both black & white people including just about everyone else.

But I still would like to know why that big black bloke in Miami,got onto our bus,sat opposite us & placed a towel on his head which covered his face as well.He remained like that for several miles until we got off at our hotel.

Is this like some quaint American cultural thing?

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Post by Guest on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:57 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Ben wrote:Well, guys, the means and the motives are both problems. The U.S. has a racism problem (though not so much worse than in many other developed nations -- mind you, I've been on In a Flap, and check out this crazy shit) and the world's worst gun problem -- at least the first world's.

No Ben.  The US has a racism problem unparalleled in the world.  I know what you are trying to say...but it's a false equivalency.  On ADO I remember telling sphinx that Britain has a wimp race problem.  British racists are like baby wannabees...they look over at the American south, and sometimes want to emulate them.  But they have this odd conscience that gets in the way.  They have no idea how to be that cruel.

You are right Quill as it's not that bad over here as it is in the states.Sure there are some who are all out vicious racists & would cut someones throat as soon as look at them (and that's people of all colours & races) but compared to America things aren't that bad over here.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:58 pm

Ben wrote:Zimmerman feared Martin because of the race problem -- if not for that, he'd have left Martin alone whether he had a gun or not.

Zimmerman feared Martin? I doubt it Ben. Zimmerman stalked and killed Martin.

He had as much fear as if he was deer hunting. Deer hunting, you don't fear the buck. You lust after him. You stalk him. And you hunt him down and, finally, you kill him. You guys are inventing fantasies to anesthetize and protect the Southerner.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:12 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:My god, true Labour and Democrat supporters indeed:

"My country and it's people are sh1tter than yours and we've done worse things in the past than you".

lol

And all that from a simple gay people coming out thread.

Let's not call it normal, andy.  The US is sick...singularly and monumentally.  I don't say that lightly or in conformity with some prescheduled program.  I say that because I want people to wake up to reality.  I want people to know how insidious and cruel is the racism of the American South.

I don't want to excuse it by passing it off as a sub-argument of gun control, or hooliganism or boys-will-be-boys.  I want people to be just as shocked as they were when the World Trade Center was brought down.  Because, America is not unfamiliar with terrorism.  It has existed in this country for a century and a half.  It exists as the KKK.  But the victims are African, so it's all right to marginalize them.  Honest to god...side-by-side, we can simultaneously be shocked by the terrorism of Muslims, who bring down the World Trade Center, and we don't recognize the same thing going on for 150-years in the American South.  Anyone who can't see the irony in that, hasn't got a mind.

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:29 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Phenomenal post Ben. Though truly just common sense, there is another forum I use (same as many here) which could do with your common sense and decency. I do however think you are just speaking for most nice people in the UK and USA. But still, very well said  Smile 

Sadly the nuts wont get it  Laughing 

Thanks, Eilzel! I've been thinking about the value of people standing up when they're different, letting people know and not being scared into the closet. We keep talking about how liberated this or that society is as though the coming-out process is now a useless or even counter-productive measure, but what about the rest of the world?

In India, it's no longer a crime to be gay -- as of 2009. We all know the situation in Russia. In Africa there are still a few countries that can put you to death for being gay, or that are discussing passing laws that would enable the death penalty for gays. All throughout the Middle East, homosexuality is a crime.

While places like that of course will make their own laws, the world is connected and people certainly look outside their own borders for better ideas. Every time a world-famous celebrity comes out, it doesn't just affect people who are used to the notion of gay people living freely among them, the news makes its way to places like Iran and might influence their thinking.

Exactly, and again well said. As you say thanks to a more connected, globalized world, what happens here affects people as far as Japan and Burma etc. Knowing that popular film stars etc are gay affects people even in power positions in developing countries. An interest case is of Civil Partnerships in Thailand and Vietnam. Though not law yet they are being discussed and with the headline of 'first Asian country' to legalize gay unions it is something two otherwise quite conservative countries are actually taking seriously.

However even in the UK and USA it is easy to forget it isn't always easy in schools for instance, where childish homophobia still exists, there are children who are bullied for their sexuality; or who can and do hide it for fear of being ostracized. When people come out, again it has a positive effect. As for the average gay person coming out; Shady makes it sound like it is done for show but that is far from the case. I can tell from experience it is mostly a chore. Whenever meeting someone new and getting to know them the subject of relationships inevitably comes up and then it is either tell that person you are gay first or just drop 'he' or 'boyfriend' in when referring to my partner- the thing is that then creates the whole awkward 'oh I didn't know you were gay'- so most of the time 'coming out' is more of a revelation of convenience haha

Oh and of course India have just taken that dodgy step back. Homosexuality is no longer currently legal after judges over ruled that change in 2009 just a few weeks back- though hopefully that situation will change soon  Smile 
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Post by veya_victaous on Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:23 am

Original Quill wrote:
No Ben.  The US has a racism problem unparalleled in the world.  I know what you are trying to say...but it's a false equivalency.  On ADO I remember telling sphinx that Britain has a wimp race problem.  British racists are like baby wannabees...they look over at the American south, and sometimes want to emulate them.  But they have this odd conscience that gets in the way.  They have no idea how to be that cruel.

I agree Quill,
It is not quite unparalleled but it is amongst the worst, you have to look at 3rd world nations to find comparisons. It is unparalleled in English speaking nations. the rest of us are getting over it  Cool 

But you don't solve racism by whinging about it. you need to make active steps and I think you would agree there are parts of the south that are too far gone to be changed with simple education/exposure to other races (plus the personal danger you would be asking the other race to endure by being around them).
I say take the weapons off the street(we took away knives as well) because it works, it is one of the things that happened here in my life when I was a teen and at the age to see the affect it had on violent crime. I think one of the first steps towards getting races to live in harmony is at least giving them the security/safety that comes from the reduction(to near zero) of armed people in the street. At least then racial minorities might be getting verbal abuse but the insane situations like Trayvon shouldn't occur, because regardless of skin colour the law will always side with the unarmed. That is at least a FIRST step towards fighting a level of racism that allowed someone to get away with murder because the victim was black.
I 100% agree it is insane that Zimmerman didn't get a murder conviction. it is injustice.

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Post by veya_victaous on Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:31 am

As for the average gay person coming out; Shady makes it sound like it is done for show but that is far from the case. I can tell from experience it is mostly a chore. Whenever meeting someone new and getting to know them the subject of relationships inevitably comes up and then it is either tell that person you are gay first or just drop 'he' or 'boyfriend' in when referring to my partner- the thing is that then creates the whole awkward 'oh I didn't know you were gay'- so most of the time 'coming out' is more of a revelation of convenience haha

Yep everyone who has to come out to me, it has been because they have decided to be openly homosexual, normally because they have meet someone and want a full relationship not some in the closet thing. So when you have known them since before that it is more just them letting you know.  Neutral  Neutral  Neutral  no different then a straight mate saying he is moving in with a new girlfriend.  I love you 

Or the ones that I have meet that are already openly gay say it because it is a fairly big part of who they are and that knowledge is needed to put the conversation into context.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:33 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
No Ben.  The US has a racism problem unparalleled in the world.  I know what you are trying to say...but it's a false equivalency.  On ADO I remember telling sphinx that Britain has a wimp race problem.  British racists are like baby wannabees...they look over at the American south, and sometimes want to emulate them.  But they have this odd conscience that gets in the way.  They have no idea how to be that cruel.

I agree Quill,
It is not quite unparalleled but it is amongst the worst, you have to look at 3rd world nations to find comparisons. It is unparalleled in English speaking nations. the rest of us are getting over it  Cool 

But you don't solve racism by whinging about it. you need to make active steps and I think you would agree there are parts of the south that are too far gone to be changed with simple education/exposure to other races (plus the personal danger you would be asking the other race to endure by being around them).

That's what I'm doing, Veya.  Taking to the streets (internet) and preaching.  If we don't do anything, the racists win.

veya_victaous wrote:I say take the weapons off the street(we took away knives as well) because it works, it is one of the things that happened here in my life when I was a teen and at the age to see the affect it had on violent crime. I think one of the first steps towards getting races to live in harmony is at least giving them the security/safety that comes from the reduction(to near zero) of armed people in the street. At least then racial minorities might be getting verbal abuse but the insane situations like Trayvon shouldn't occur, because regardless of skin colour the law will always side with the unarmed. That is at least a FIRST step towards fighting a level of racism that allowed someone to get away with murder because the victim was black.
I 100% agree it is insane that Zimmerman didn't get a murder conviction. it is injustice.

Gun control is your thing.  Racism is my thing.  You go ahead and represent mothers and fathers who have lost children and loved ones in Aurora and Sandy Hook.

Meanwhile, I'm going to point out to Southerners how their racism kills children.  And I hope it gets to some mothers...particularly mothers who have lost children.  Because I will say, "See, see how it feels?  If you weren't such an asshole, you might have prevented another mother from feeling the same thing!"  I want to rub in that pain. Those were mothers on the jury of George Zimmerman, who let a racist killer of children go loose. They need to hear that. They need to hear that their child's death was just as insignificant. I want them to feel pain. I sure hope it's effective.

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Post by Guest on Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:21 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

Thanks, Eilzel! I've been thinking about the value of people standing up when they're different, letting people know and not being scared into the closet. We keep talking about how liberated this or that society is as though the coming-out process is now a useless or even counter-productive measure, but what about the rest of the world?

In India, it's no longer a crime to be gay -- as of 2009. We all know the situation in Russia. In Africa there are still a few countries that can put you to death for being gay, or that are discussing passing laws that would enable the death penalty for gays. All throughout the Middle East, homosexuality is a crime.

While places like that of course will make their own laws, the world is connected and people certainly look outside their own borders for better ideas. Every time a world-famous celebrity comes out, it doesn't just affect people who are used to the notion of gay people living freely among them, the news makes its way to places like Iran and might influence their thinking.

Exactly, and again well said. As you say thanks to a more connected, globalized world, what happens here affects people as far as Japan and Burma etc. Knowing that popular film stars etc are gay affects people even in power positions in developing countries. An interest case is of Civil Partnerships in Thailand and Vietnam. Though not law yet they are being discussed and with the headline of 'first Asian country' to legalize gay unions it is something two otherwise quite conservative countries are actually taking seriously.

However even in the UK and USA it is easy to forget it isn't always easy in schools for instance, where childish homophobia still exists, there are children who are bullied for their sexuality; or who can and do hide it for fear of being ostracized. When people come out, again it has a positive effect. As for the average gay person coming out; Shady makes it sound like it is done for show but that is far from the case. I can tell from experience it is mostly a chore. Whenever meeting someone new and getting to know them the subject of relationships inevitably comes up and then it is either tell that person you are gay first or just drop 'he' or 'boyfriend' in when referring to my partner- the thing is that then creates the whole awkward 'oh I didn't know you were gay'- so most of the time 'coming out' is more of a revelation of convenience haha

Oh and of course India have just taken that dodgy step back. Homosexuality is no longer currently legal after judges over ruled that change in 2009 just a few weeks back- though hopefully that situation will change soon  Smile 

Good afternoon Eilzel.

Eilzel your comment about me making it sound like coming out is done for show is not strictly true,although I can see where you may have confused this issue.I'm guessing that you were thinking about my post on another site in which I asked why some gay guys put on that daft effeminate gay voice instead of speaking with their normal voice.

Let me put it another way,when I was a teenager & I reached that point in my life where I couldn't take my eyes off the opposite sex & wanted sex with every pretty girl that walked by me,& simultaneously realized that I didn't fancy guys.........I didn't suddenly come out.I didn't make any announcements.I simply got on with my life,grabbed hold of as many Sun newspapers as I could & wanked myself silly like all good teenagers do & should do.

Homosexuals seem to be required to proclaim public clarifications of their sexuality --& they should just live their lives without having to explain anything about themselves.

I think that this coming out phenomenon has become & an unwelcome burden for many gay people.

(I'd also like to point out that I spelt phenomenon correctly for the first time in ages)

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
As for the average gay person coming out; Shady makes it sound like it is done for show but that is far from the case. I can tell from experience it is mostly a chore. Whenever meeting someone new and getting to know them the subject of relationships inevitably comes up and then it is either tell that person you are gay first or just drop 'he' or 'boyfriend' in when referring to my partner- the thing is that then creates the whole awkward 'oh I didn't know you were gay'- so most of the time 'coming out' is more of a revelation of convenience haha

Yep everyone who has to come out to me, it has been because they have decided to be openly homosexual, normally because they have meet someone and want a full relationship not some in the closet thing. So when you have known them since before that it is more just them letting you know.  Neutral  Neutral  Neutral  no different then a straight mate saying he is moving in with a new girlfriend.  I love you 

Or the ones that I have meet that are already openly gay say it because it is a fairly big part of who they are and that knowledge is needed to put the conversation into context.

Exactly, it feel strange when a conversation goes a certain way with the other person assuming you are straight when you're not  Smile 
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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:02 pm

Shady wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Exactly, and again well said. As you say thanks to a more connected, globalized world, what happens here affects people as far as Japan and Burma etc. Knowing that popular film stars etc are gay affects people even in power positions in developing countries. An interest case is of Civil Partnerships in Thailand and Vietnam. Though not law yet they are being discussed and with the headline of 'first Asian country' to legalize gay unions it is something two otherwise quite conservative countries are actually taking seriously.

However even in the UK and USA it is easy to forget it isn't always easy in schools for instance, where childish homophobia still exists, there are children who are bullied for their sexuality; or who can and do hide it for fear of being ostracized. When people come out, again it has a positive effect. As for the average gay person coming out; Shady makes it sound like it is done for show but that is far from the case. I can tell from experience it is mostly a chore. Whenever meeting someone new and getting to know them the subject of relationships inevitably comes up and then it is either tell that person you are gay first or just drop 'he' or 'boyfriend' in when referring to my partner- the thing is that then creates the whole awkward 'oh I didn't know you were gay'- so most of the time 'coming out' is more of a revelation of convenience haha

Oh and of course India have just taken that dodgy step back. Homosexuality is no longer currently legal after judges over ruled that change in 2009 just a few weeks back- though hopefully that situation will change soon  Smile 

Good afternoon Eilzel.

Eilzel your comment about me making it sound like coming out is done for show is not strictly true,although I can see where you may have confused this issue.I'm guessing that you were thinking about my post on another site in which I asked why some gay guys put on that daft effeminate gay voice instead of speaking with their normal voice.

Let me put it another way,when I was a teenager & I reached that point in my life where I couldn't take my eyes off the opposite sex & wanted sex with every pretty girl that walked by me,& simultaneously realized that I didn't fancy guys.........I didn't suddenly come out.I didn't make any announcements.I simply got on with my life,grabbed hold of as many Sun newspapers as I could & wanked myself silly like all good teenagers do & should do.

Homosexuals seem to be required to proclaim public clarifications of their sexuality --& they  should just live their lives without having to explain anything about themselves.

I think that this coming out phenomenon has become & an unwelcome burden for many gay people.

(I'd also like to point out that I spelt phenomenon correctly for the first time in ages)

Hello Shady,

I think you should read back some of my posts. The way many gay people inform others they are gay is that it is just comes up in conversation. If someone assumes you are straight and begins talking for instance of your partner as 'girlfriend' it is only right to correct them, and thus 'come out'. Likewise if someone starts talking about women as though I'm interested, it would be pretty misleading not to point out that actually I'm gay, thus again 'coming out', totally within the context of the conversation.

As to people coming out for the first time. Well if you have gone through life with an assumption one way there comes a point where you want people to stop assuming, and the only way is to tell people. For famous people this tends to be public since 'the public' tend to obsess over celebrities and their lives and for those people (ie: Tom Daley) in order to kill tedious media speculation it is far easier just to make it known.

If you want to blame any one for making it newsworthy in this day and age, look at the media, especially the Tabloid press- they lap it up; but then again, so does their readership Smile
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Post by Guest on Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:36 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Shady wrote:

Good afternoon Eilzel.

Eilzel your comment about me making it sound like coming out is done for show is not strictly true,although I can see where you may have confused this issue.I'm guessing that you were thinking about my post on another site in which I asked why some gay guys put on that daft effeminate gay voice instead of speaking with their normal voice.

Let me put it another way,when I was a teenager & I reached that point in my life where I couldn't take my eyes off the opposite sex & wanted sex with every pretty girl that walked by me,& simultaneously realized that I didn't fancy guys.........I didn't suddenly come out.I didn't make any announcements.I simply got on with my life,grabbed hold of as many Sun newspapers as I could & wanked myself silly like all good teenagers do & should do.

Homosexuals seem to be required to proclaim public clarifications of their sexuality --& they  should just live their lives without having to explain anything about themselves.

I think that this coming out phenomenon has become & an unwelcome burden for many gay people.

(I'd also like to point out that I spelt phenomenon correctly for the first time in ages)

Hello Shady,

I think you should read back some of my posts. The way many gay people inform others they are gay is that it is just comes up in conversation. If someone assumes you are straight and begins talking for instance of your partner as 'girlfriend' it is only right to correct them, and thus 'come out'. Likewise if someone starts talking about women as though I'm interested, it would be pretty misleading not to point out that actually I'm gay, thus again 'coming out', totally within the context of the conversation.

As to people coming out for the first time. Well if you have gone through life with an assumption one way there comes a point where you want people to stop assuming, and the only way is to tell people. For famous people this tends to be public since 'the public' tend to obsess over celebrities and their lives and for those people (ie: Tom Daley) in order to kill tedious media speculation it is far easier just to make it known.

If you want to blame any one for making it newsworthy in this day and age, look at the media, especially the Tabloid press- they lap it up; but then again, so does their readership Smile

And that's why I hardly ever read a tabloid newspaper.

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Post by nicko on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:00 pm

people lap it up,most people could not care less who is and who isn't.
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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:41 pm

nicko wrote:people lap it up,most people could not care less who is and who isn't.

That wasn't really the point but oh well.
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Post by Guest on Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:48 pm

nicko wrote:people lap it up,most people could not care less who is and who isn't.

Some people prefer to stand up for, and to promote for civil rights, some don't.

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Post by Guest on Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:07 am

Eilzel wrote:
nicko wrote:people lap it up,most people could not care less who is and who isn't.

That wasn't really the point but oh well.

As a gay man, do you consider the humans rights movement, to be a fair and just?

Do you think that, as you have suggested, that we only come out to people, in conversation when it is only required to confirm the fact?

Is this to do with your younger age?

What do you think about the problem with there not being enough sports stars coming out, so homophobia still continues in football?

Do you think that your 'comfy life' and never having problems with regards to bullying etc at school, might have clouded your judgement over civil rights issues Les?

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Post by Guest on Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:18 am

From what i can gather Les...You have said that you have always been very straight acting, and no one could tell that you were gay?

...But what about those gays, where it was impossible to hide who they are...perhaps through having a higher pitched voice when they were younger, perhaps because they displayed an interest for gay pop stars back in the days?...Perhaps they stood up against the crowd etc!

When did you ever stand up for gay rights in the real world?

Just asking!  Smile 

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:14 pm

Catman wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

That wasn't really the point but oh well.

As a gay man, do you consider the humans rights movement, to be a fair and just?

Do you think that, as you have suggested, that we only come out to people, in conversation when it is only required to confirm the fact?

Is this to do with your younger age?

What do you think about the problem with there not being enough sports stars coming out, so homophobia still continues in football?

Do you think that your 'comfy life' and never having problems with regards to bullying etc at school, might have clouded your judgement over civil rights issues Les?

Sorry only just saw this.

I don't think I suggested people only come out to confirm the fact. If that was what I said (and I don't think it was) it wasn't intended. What I said was that these days that is how it is for me personally. Obviously I went through a point where I simply told everyone I was close to, in a very short space of time, and it certainly didn't feel 'simple' at the time- it was one of the biggest and toughest things I did up to that point Smile

More footballers should come out, and certainly those who are currently playing though I understand their fears in doing so. I massively support human rights especially those for gay people in parts of the world where being gay is a risk to a persons life. My life hasn't always been 'comfy' phil, I think you've got me all wrong.

And yes I am very straight acting, that isn't my fault, in fact one of the things I've often thought and talked about is how had I been more 'obviously gay' it might have been easier in some ways, I came out later than most, especially compared to many younger gay people today, I may have missed out on a lot because due to my nature and very straight social circles and the fact no one would have guessed I kept quieter longer than I should have. Not that I'm complaining now of course Smile

AS to what I've done for gay rights in the real world. Well that depends what you think of as 'doing' anything. Tbf when I reached 18 gay rights had already achieved all but Civil Partnerships and I was still suffering my own internal 'issues' over being gay into my early twenties. Since then however I have just got on with life. I have never been into gay activism personally though I am grateful to those who do- however in simply getting on with life and not hiding my sexuality I think that I am sort of impacting on how the people I meet perceive gay people- perhaps it will shake stereotypes of all gay people being a certain way, or promiscuous, or militant, if they see someone who is really just anybody and it's no big deal; and maybe, hopefully, if the subject of 'gays' comes up they will recall the fact they know a guy who is gay who is just an ordinary guy- that isn't a conscious effort on my part if that's what you were looking for, aside from that just the old 'keyboard warrior' facebook posts Smile

How about you phil?
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Post by Guest on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:33 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Catman wrote:

As a gay man, do you consider the humans rights movement, to be a fair and just?

Do you think that, as you have suggested, that we only come out to people, in conversation when it is only required to confirm the fact?

Is this to do with your younger age?

What do you think about the problem with there not being enough sports stars coming out, so homophobia still continues in football?

Do you think that your 'comfy life' and never having problems with regards to bullying etc at school, might have clouded your judgement over civil rights issues Les?

Sorry only just saw this.

I don't think I suggested people only come out to confirm the fact. If that was what I said (and I don't think it was) it wasn't intended. What I said was that these days that is how it is for me personally. Obviously I went through a point where I simply told everyone I was close to, in a very short space of time, and it certainly didn't feel 'simple' at the time- it was one of the biggest and toughest things I did up to that point Smile

More footballers should come out, and certainly those who are currently playing though I understand their fears in doing so. I massively support human rights especially those for gay people in parts of the world where being gay is a risk to a persons life. My life hasn't always been 'comfy' phil, I think you've got me all wrong.

And yes I am very straight acting, that isn't my fault, in fact one of the things I've often thought and talked about is how had I been more 'obviously gay' it might have been easier in some ways, I came out later than most, especially compared to many younger gay people today, I may have missed out on a lot because due to my nature and very straight social circles and the fact no one would have guessed I kept quieter longer than I should have. Not that I'm complaining now of course Smile

AS to what I've done for gay rights in the real world. Well that depends what you think of as 'doing' anything. Tbf when I reached 18 gay rights had already achieved all but Civil Partnerships and I was still suffering my own internal 'issues' over being gay into my early twenties. Since then however I have just got on with life. I have never been into gay activism personally though I am grateful to those who do- however in simply getting on with life and not hiding my sexuality I think that I am sort of impacting on how the people I meet perceive gay people- perhaps it will shake stereotypes of all gay people being a certain way, or promiscuous, or militant, if they see someone who is really just anybody and it's no big deal; and maybe, hopefully, if the subject of 'gays' comes up they will recall the fact they know a guy who is gay who is just an ordinary guy- that isn't a conscious effort on my part if that's what you were looking for, aside from that just the old 'keyboard warrior' facebook posts Smile

How about you phil?

...I came out in 1987 at nineteen when it was still illegal to be gay at my age, the legal age of consent for gay people was twenty one in those days.

I feel that people of my age and older were the pioneers in securing the freedoms that we enjoy today, most certainly i attended every single pride march for over a decade, when it was a lot more political that it is today and there was abuse from certain sections of the public.

Apart from that i was on the 'No To Section 28' march, and was outside parliament, with the vigil over the age of consent, when it fell at it's first hurdle and the police were very heavy handed with us, my mate was arrested by the police.

I've done more than just be a keyboard warrior.

Thanks for your input btw.

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:43 pm

Catman wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Sorry only just saw this.

I don't think I suggested people only come out to confirm the fact. If that was what I said (and I don't think it was) it wasn't intended. What I said was that these days that is how it is for me personally. Obviously I went through a point where I simply told everyone I was close to, in a very short space of time, and it certainly didn't feel 'simple' at the time- it was one of the biggest and toughest things I did up to that point Smile

More footballers should come out, and certainly those who are currently playing though I understand their fears in doing so. I massively support human rights especially those for gay people in parts of the world where being gay is a risk to a persons life. My life hasn't always been 'comfy' phil, I think you've got me all wrong.

And yes I am very straight acting, that isn't my fault, in fact one of the things I've often thought and talked about is how had I been more 'obviously gay' it might have been easier in some ways, I came out later than most, especially compared to many younger gay people today, I may have missed out on a lot because due to my nature and very straight social circles and the fact no one would have guessed I kept quieter longer than I should have. Not that I'm complaining now of course Smile

AS to what I've done for gay rights in the real world. Well that depends what you think of as 'doing' anything. Tbf when I reached 18 gay rights had already achieved all but Civil Partnerships and I was still suffering my own internal 'issues' over being gay into my early twenties. Since then however I have just got on with life. I have never been into gay activism personally though I am grateful to those who do- however in simply getting on with life and not hiding my sexuality I think that I am sort of impacting on how the people I meet perceive gay people- perhaps it will shake stereotypes of all gay people being a certain way, or promiscuous, or militant, if they see someone who is really just anybody and it's no big deal; and maybe, hopefully, if the subject of 'gays' comes up they will recall the fact they know a guy who is gay who is just an ordinary guy- that isn't a conscious effort on my part if that's what you were looking for, aside from that just the old 'keyboard warrior' facebook posts Smile

How about you phil?

...I came out in 1987 at nineteen when it was still illegal to be gay at my age, the legal age of consent for gay people was twenty one in those days.

I feel that people of my age and older were the pioneers in securing the freedoms that we enjoy today, most certainly i attended every single pride march for over a decade, when it was a lot more political that it is today and there was abuse from certain sections of the public.

Apart from that i was on the 'No To Section 28' march, and was outside parliament, with the vigil over the age of consent, when it fell at it's first hurdle  and the police were very heavy handed with us, my mate was arrested by the police.

I've done more than just be a keyboard warrior.

Thanks for your input btw.

I used the term keyboard warrior in jest phil, I don't see posting on Facebook as making much difference (though it at least maintains awareness among people who might otherwise ignore such issues). Just getting on in life I think does far more. However you must remember the fact I was born and able to benefit from all the efforts of those before I was born or when I was growing up is not a reason to resent me and others for not being more 'active'- surely me and my generation and those younger and the ones you wanted to make life better for in the future? There should be no resentment there. Those who came before were indeed pioneers, liberators even, and again there is a lot of gratitude there.

But that said; I don't think today's gay rights movement warrants the same numbers. Subtle diplomacy is now far more effective- it wouldn't have been at first, not at all, but the vast majority of people are now on our side Smile
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Post by Guest on Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:03 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Catman wrote:

...I came out in 1987 at nineteen when it was still illegal to be gay at my age, the legal age of consent for gay people was twenty one in those days.

I feel that people of my age and older were the pioneers in securing the freedoms that we enjoy today, most certainly i attended every single pride march for over a decade, when it was a lot more political that it is today and there was abuse from certain sections of the public.

Apart from that i was on the 'No To Section 28' march, and was outside parliament, with the vigil over the age of consent, when it fell at it's first hurdle  and the police were very heavy handed with us, my mate was arrested by the police.

I've done more than just be a keyboard warrior.

Thanks for your input btw.

I used the term keyboard warrior in jest phil, I don't see posting on Facebook as making much difference (though it at least maintains awareness among people who might otherwise ignore such issues). Just getting on in life I think does far more. However you must remember the fact I was born and able to benefit from all the efforts of those before I was born or when I was growing up is not a reason to resent me and others for not being more 'active'- surely me and my generation and those younger and the ones you wanted to make life better for in the future? There should be no resentment there. Those who came before were indeed pioneers, liberators even, and again there is a lot of gratitude there.

But that said; I don't think today's gay rights movement warrants the same numbers. Subtle diplomacy is now far more effective- it wouldn't have been at first, not at all, but the vast majority of people are now on our side Smile

Agreed....But there is still homophobia out there, and until that ends there will always be a need to show it up when it manifests itself.


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Post by Guest on Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:10 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Catman wrote:

As a gay man, do you consider the humans rights movement, to be a fair and just?

Do you think that, as you have suggested, that we only come out to people, in conversation when it is only required to confirm the fact?

Is this to do with your younger age?

What do you think about the problem with there not being enough sports stars coming out, so homophobia still continues in football?

Do you think that your 'comfy life' and never having problems with regards to bullying etc at school, might have clouded your judgement over civil rights issues Les?

Sorry only just saw this.

I don't think I suggested people only come out to confirm the fact. If that was what I said (and I don't think it was) it wasn't intended. What I said was that these days that is how it is for me personally. Obviously I went through a point where I simply told everyone I was close to, in a very short space of time, and it certainly didn't feel 'simple' at the time- it was one of the biggest and toughest things I did up to that point Smile

More footballers should come out, and certainly those who are currently playing though I understand their fears in doing so. I massively support human rights especially those for gay people in parts of the world where being gay is a risk to a persons life. My life hasn't always been 'comfy' phil, I think you've got me all wrong.

And yes I am very straight acting, that isn't my fault, in fact one of the things I've often thought and talked about is how had I been more 'obviously gay' it might have been easier in some ways, I came out later than most, especially compared to many younger gay people today, I may have missed out on a lot because due to my nature and very straight social circles and the fact no one would have guessed I kept quieter longer than I should have. Not that I'm complaining now of course Smile

AS to what I've done for gay rights in the real world. Well that depends what you think of as 'doing' anything. Tbf when I reached 18 gay rights had already achieved all but Civil Partnerships and I was still suffering my own internal 'issues' over being gay into my early twenties. Since then however I have just got on with life. I have never been into gay activism personally though I am grateful to those who do- however in simply getting on with life and not hiding my sexuality I think that I am sort of impacting on how the people I meet perceive gay people- perhaps it will shake stereotypes of all gay people being a certain way, or promiscuous, or militant, if they see someone who is really just anybody and it's no big deal; and maybe, hopefully, if the subject of 'gays' comes up they will recall the fact they know a guy who is gay who is just an ordinary guy- that isn't a conscious effort on my part if that's what you were looking for, aside from that just the old 'keyboard warrior' facebook posts Smile

How about you phil?

That is just such a lovely, heartfelt honest post Les. I wish some of them over yonder could read it too.

And I happen to believe that you are a lovely person too  Smile 

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Post by Eilzel on Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:29 am

Costa wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Sorry only just saw this.

I don't think I suggested people only come out to confirm the fact. If that was what I said (and I don't think it was) it wasn't intended. What I said was that these days that is how it is for me personally. Obviously I went through a point where I simply told everyone I was close to, in a very short space of time, and it certainly didn't feel 'simple' at the time- it was one of the biggest and toughest things I did up to that point Smile

More footballers should come out, and certainly those who are currently playing though I understand their fears in doing so. I massively support human rights especially those for gay people in parts of the world where being gay is a risk to a persons life. My life hasn't always been 'comfy' phil, I think you've got me all wrong.

And yes I am very straight acting, that isn't my fault, in fact one of the things I've often thought and talked about is how had I been more 'obviously gay' it might have been easier in some ways, I came out later than most, especially compared to many younger gay people today, I may have missed out on a lot because due to my nature and very straight social circles and the fact no one would have guessed I kept quieter longer than I should have. Not that I'm complaining now of course Smile

AS to what I've done for gay rights in the real world. Well that depends what you think of as 'doing' anything. Tbf when I reached 18 gay rights had already achieved all but Civil Partnerships and I was still suffering my own internal 'issues' over being gay into my early twenties. Since then however I have just got on with life. I have never been into gay activism personally though I am grateful to those who do- however in simply getting on with life and not hiding my sexuality I think that I am sort of impacting on how the people I meet perceive gay people- perhaps it will shake stereotypes of all gay people being a certain way, or promiscuous, or militant, if they see someone who is really just anybody and it's no big deal; and maybe, hopefully, if the subject of 'gays' comes up they will recall the fact they know a guy who is gay who is just an ordinary guy- that isn't a conscious effort on my part if that's what you were looking for, aside from that just the old 'keyboard warrior' facebook posts Smile

How about you phil?

That is just such a lovely, heartfelt honest post Les. I wish some of them over yonder could read it too.

And I happen to believe that you are a lovely person too  Smile 

Thanks Costa, much appreciated, though I don't think they would have any interested, too clouded with anger over there (including a certain buddy of yours haha) Smile

^phil, I agree there is still homophobia here today, the difference is thesedays it will slammed by the majority gay and straight.
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Post by Guest on Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:47 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Costa wrote:

That is just such a lovely, heartfelt honest post Les. I wish some of them over yonder could read it too.

And I happen to believe that you are a lovely person too  Smile 

Thanks Costa, much appreciated, though I don't think they would have any interested, too clouded with anger over there (including a certain buddy of yours haha) Smile

^phil, I agree there is still homophobia here today, the difference is thesedays it will slammed by the majority gay and straight.

I agree, but it's still not good enough yet.

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Post by Cantankerous on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:28 am

Original Quill wrote:
Veya wrote:The problem is why is there even a question about possible innocence. he shot some one. You are a racist if you think it makes any differnce whaty colour skin they have, you are just as bad as the jury because YOU see Africans Americans as different, how is Trayvon any different than any other kid?

He's different because the American Southerners treat Africans differently.  When you analyze, you cant help but think in terms of causation.  Southern racism is what causes these murders.  Trayvon Martin is not just another murder, he was targeted by Southerners.  Admittedly, Zimmerman is only one person, but he is the product of the acculturation that whites get from the North Carolina border down.  They learn, first, that Blacks are second-class...and, second, that it's all right to murder them.

Zimmerman was judged by a southern jury...people just like him.  As such, they committed murder every bit as much as he did.  They are a part of that acculturation: "Oh, you killed a n----r in cold blood?  Go lay low, and we'll get you out of trouble."  That's all the remorse they feel.
what about the racists in the OJ trial then, or is the murder of white girls and boys OK then?

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Post by Cantankerous on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:32 am

Catman wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

That wasn't really the point but oh well.

As a gay man, do you consider the humans rights movement, to be a fair and just?

Do you think that, as you have suggested, that we only come out to people, in conversation when it is only required to confirm the fact?

Is this to do with your younger age?

What do you think about the problem with there not being enough sports stars coming out, so homophobia still continues in football?

Do you think that your 'comfy life' and never having problems with regards to bullying etc at school, might have clouded your judgement over civil rights issues Les?
there's only two things in life you can guarantee and that is death and taxes
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Post by veya_victaous on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:38 am

@catman
there are still racists, a zero state will probably never be achieved in my opinion the rights the community would need to surrender to achieve a zero state on almost any issue (from Road deaths to Prejudices) is not worth it.
It still needs to get a bit better than now but I think it is only a matter of time until the haters are well and truly in the minority.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:50 am

veya_victaous wrote:@catman
there are still racists, a zero state will probably never be achieved in my opinion the rights the community would need to surrender to achieve a zero state on almost any issue (from Road deaths to Prejudices) is not worth it.
It still needs to get a bit better than now but I think it is only a matter of time  until the haters are well and truly in the minority.

Agreed...Probably (in this country)..another generation or so.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:04 pm

Cantankerous wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

He's different because the American Southerners treat Africans differently.  When you analyze, you cant help but think in terms of causation.  Southern racism is what causes these murders.  Trayvon Martin is not just another murder, he was targeted by Southerners.  Admittedly, Zimmerman is only one person, but he is the product of the acculturation that whites get from the North Carolina border down.  They learn, first, that Blacks are second-class...and, second, that it's all right to murder them.

Zimmerman was judged by a southern jury...people just like him.  As such, they committed murder every bit as much as he did.  They are a part of that acculturation: "Oh, you killed a n----r in cold blood?  Go lay low, and we'll get you out of trouble."  That's all the remorse they feel.
what about the racists in the OJ trial then, or is the murder of white girls and boys OK then?

So, you are suggesting that there is something like Southern racism in Los Angeles, only it's Black on White?  Maybe the Urban League is actually the Urban League Klan.  And was there an African conspiracy on the jury?  The Jury, as you will recall, found OJ non-guilty.

The LA jury didn't rely upon the trigger-man's version of events because of his colour.  (Perhaps you believe John Gotti was a neighborhood priest, too.)  The LA jury said why the found as they did.  Mark Furman's testimony was not believed.  There was no blood traces on the evidence, as he alleged.  In the word of one juror, "Where was the evidence of blood?"  


Giles Whittel wrote:
Detectives went back to the Bronco during their investigation but whether they planted evidence there remained an open question at the criminal trial.  Detective Mark Fuhrman, exposed on the witness stand as a racist, was asked if he had planted evidence but refused to answer, invoking his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself. Since then the Los Angeles Police Department has been humiliated by revelations of systematic evidence planting in hundreds of other cases.

If Furman was not willing to stand by his own case, why should the jury believe him?  On the other hand, in the Zimmerman (Trayvon Martin) case the racist jury willingly believed the uncorroborated story of a proven liar.  If the Zimmerman case had not had a racist jury, he would have been convicted in any jurisdiction in the US.

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Post by Guest on Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:21 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Catman wrote:

As a gay man, do you consider the humans rights movement, to be a fair and just?

Do you think that, as you have suggested, that we only come out to people, in conversation when it is only required to confirm the fact?

Is this to do with your younger age?

What do you think about the problem with there not being enough sports stars coming out, so homophobia still continues in football?

Do you think that your 'comfy life' and never having problems with regards to bullying etc at school, might have clouded your judgement over civil rights issues Les?

Sorry only just saw this.

I don't think I suggested people only come out to confirm the fact. If that was what I said (and I don't think it was) it wasn't intended. What I said was that these days that is how it is for me personally. Obviously I went through a point where I simply told everyone I was close to, in a very short space of time, and it certainly didn't feel 'simple' at the time- it was one of the biggest and toughest things I did up to that point Smile

More footballers should come out, and certainly those who are currently playing though I understand their fears in doing so. I massively support human rights especially those for gay people in parts of the world where being gay is a risk to a persons life. My life hasn't always been 'comfy' phil, I think you've got me all wrong.

And yes I am very straight acting, that isn't my fault, in fact one of the things I've often thought and talked about is how had I been more 'obviously gay' it might have been easier in some ways, I came out later than most, especially compared to many younger gay people today, I may have missed out on a lot because due to my nature and very straight social circles and the fact no one would have guessed I kept quieter longer than I should have. Not that I'm complaining now of course Smile

AS to what I've done for gay rights in the real world. Well that depends what you think of as 'doing' anything. Tbf when I reached 18 gay rights had already achieved all but Civil Partnerships and I was still suffering my own internal 'issues' over being gay into my early twenties. Since then however I have just got on with life. I have never been into gay activism personally though I am grateful to those who do- however in simply getting on with life and not hiding my sexuality I think that I am sort of impacting on how the people I meet perceive gay people- perhaps it will shake stereotypes of all gay people being a certain way, or promiscuous, or militant, if they see someone who is really just anybody and it's no big deal; and maybe, hopefully, if the subject of 'gays' comes up they will recall the fact they know a guy who is gay who is just an ordinary guy- that isn't a conscious effort on my part if that's what you were looking for, aside from that just the old 'keyboard warrior' facebook posts Smile

How about you phil?

Gay people coming out. - Page 2 Heart_28 What a lovely post Les, I can feel every piece of emotion xxx

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Post by Eilzel on Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:19 pm

feelthelove wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Sorry only just saw this.

I don't think I suggested people only come out to confirm the fact. If that was what I said (and I don't think it was) it wasn't intended. What I said was that these days that is how it is for me personally. Obviously I went through a point where I simply told everyone I was close to, in a very short space of time, and it certainly didn't feel 'simple' at the time- it was one of the biggest and toughest things I did up to that point Smile

More footballers should come out, and certainly those who are currently playing though I understand their fears in doing so. I massively support human rights especially those for gay people in parts of the world where being gay is a risk to a persons life. My life hasn't always been 'comfy' phil, I think you've got me all wrong.

And yes I am very straight acting, that isn't my fault, in fact one of the things I've often thought and talked about is how had I been more 'obviously gay' it might have been easier in some ways, I came out later than most, especially compared to many younger gay people today, I may have missed out on a lot because due to my nature and very straight social circles and the fact no one would have guessed I kept quieter longer than I should have. Not that I'm complaining now of course Smile

AS to what I've done for gay rights in the real world. Well that depends what you think of as 'doing' anything. Tbf when I reached 18 gay rights had already achieved all but Civil Partnerships and I was still suffering my own internal 'issues' over being gay into my early twenties. Since then however I have just got on with life. I have never been into gay activism personally though I am grateful to those who do- however in simply getting on with life and not hiding my sexuality I think that I am sort of impacting on how the people I meet perceive gay people- perhaps it will shake stereotypes of all gay people being a certain way, or promiscuous, or militant, if they see someone who is really just anybody and it's no big deal; and maybe, hopefully, if the subject of 'gays' comes up they will recall the fact they know a guy who is gay who is just an ordinary guy- that isn't a conscious effort on my part if that's what you were looking for, aside from that just the old 'keyboard warrior' facebook posts Smile

How about you phil?

Gay people coming out. - Page 2 Heart_28 What a lovely post Les, I can feel every piece of emotion xxx

Thanks FtL x
Eilzel
Eilzel
Speaker of the House

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