Don't brand all Muslim women as traditionally submissive – there is a difference between cultures

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Don't brand all Muslim women as traditionally submissive – there is a difference between cultures Empty Don't brand all Muslim women as traditionally submissive – there is a difference between cultures

Post by eddie on Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:55 am

(Following on from a thread yesterday)

On the above image on the left: women in Saudi-style abayas and niqabs. They've been convinced to believe that this is the way to paradise. Or they've been threatened with violence, or fines and jail if they don't comply. For many of them, this is the only way to leave the house.

On the right: the beautiful array of traditional clothing for women that you can find all over Muslim countries. Not one of these outfits is immodest or obscene. Some include a head covering, some don't. Yet in Muslim countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, where theocracy rules, or in any place where extremists exert power over society, a deliberate effort is being made to suppress and erase women's traditional clothing – and in many cases, men's, in favour of the Arab-style thobe and skullcap.

This is not Islam. This is cultural imperialism mixed with misogyny.

The recent Twitter hashtag #traditionallysubmissive was an interesting counterpoint to the photograph above. According to The Telegraph, UK Prime Minister David Cameron had said that some young men are vulnerable to radicalisation due to the "traditional submissiveness of Muslim women", which prevents them from speaking out. In protest, Muslim women took to Twitter – the majority in hijabs – holding up placards announcing their jobs, activities and other contributions to society, which showed they were completely the opposite of submissive. It is also significant in a time where many Muslim women have been harassed and attacked for wearing hijabs.

At the heart of the debate is the fact that Muslim women have a right as well as a responsibility to move in the world normally. What "normal" means is something that has to be negotiated by women — not dictated by men — from country to country and society to society, taking traditional culture, religious practice and the aspirations of women moving towards modernity at their own pace into account. "Normal" does not mean the complete erasure of women from public view.


Click here to see links to pics and more on the article http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/do-no-brand-all-Muslim-women-traditionally-submissive-there-difference-between-cultures-1540175
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Don't brand all Muslim women as traditionally submissive – there is a difference between cultures Empty Re: Don't brand all Muslim women as traditionally submissive – there is a difference between cultures

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:28 am

At the heart of the debate is the fact that Muslim women have a right as well as a responsibility to move in the world normally. What "normal" means is something that has to be negotiated by women — not dictated by men — from country to country and society to society, taking traditional culture, religious practice and the aspirations of women moving towards modernity at their own pace into account. "Normal" does not mean the complete erasure of women from public view.

Ahmen, to that article; and there are plenty of factual/insightful bio's written by the same Islamic & Muslim raised women - sick and tired of being portrayed as 'PRISONERS' within their own cultures and being ridiculed for their CHOICE OF ATIRE. 

But it only creates more vile angst from some 'MEN' that assume they have the inner ear for the entire religious faith because they've read 1 article and have a FEELING that the way these women dress is what the entire nation of Islam or Muslims live daily! 

Horror stories sell news print --- but that's for the grown up's to have a complete understanding and the hysteria motivated will grab onto any such topic as the 'Holy Grail' for facts and proof!  Don't brand all Muslim women as traditionally submissive – there is a difference between cultures 2787774761  so easily led by emotion instead of rational thought process...

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:41 am




Personally again I am not against the Hijab, but again it is born from a repressive male view to control

Watch the video and see how they are taught

Then ask yourself

The Burka is compulsory within many Whabbism sects of Islam

Now in our societies its compulsory to wear school uniforms in some schools.

Now if the child does not wear the uniform, what happens?

They are punished.

Whether that be anything from being sent home to suspension.

That means the child has no choice but to wear that uniform by attending that school

The same applies to the woman who attends that Islamic doctrine, this is their uniform in Wahhabism

Its compulsory in the doctrine to wear. So how is it a choice, if they believe they will be punished for not wearing?

Its not a choice when following that doctrine, they have to wear, as its compulsory.

They are brainwashed at a young age to believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they do not cover themselves, saying it is haram.

Girls of the youngest ages are taught to be at fault for their beauty and so to cover up this beauty. Wrongly believing this will deter men harassing them. If that was the case, then why are still Muslim women the victims of rape?

The only real choice is whether they leave that doctrine of Islam or not, which is impossible for many because of their families.

If they leave Islam, in certain countries, that means their death

So again how is it a choice?

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:11 pm

As with 'ANY MALE DRIVEN' method for controlling the 'WOMEN' within that faith; the insurgence of radical Islamic behavior, {terrorist know how to demonize and control} has returned to many regions within the middle east. And in order to survive the humans do as they are told; does this mean that those living there have a 'CHOICE' --- no, not at all. 
But the same can be said and applied to our own pockets of LDS communities right here in America; the church of the later day saints is rife with: child abuse, sexual deviations, mandatory dress for children and females, limited education up to grades 8, polygamy, male youths being driven out of their families and communities around the age of 15!

And now places that had shown modernization for women's attire have become over run with Terrorist and their need to CONTROL:

Notes

Islamic law (Sharia) requires women to cover themselves. The practical application in modern Muslim countries varies with a combination of individual and social taste. The Taliban require full burqas (covering everything, including a mesh for the eyes), while the more secular governments of Turkey and Tunisia once banned headscarves in public buildings (the bans have since been lifted following the Islamist ascension).

The head covering is interpreted as a symbol of male domination by most critics and by many Muslim women who fight for the right to dress as they please. In December of 2007, a father in Canada beat his 16-year-old daughter to death for refusing to wear the hijab (headscarf).

Some apologists insist that the veil is not mandated by the religion, although they do not have anything within the sacred texts to counter the passages in which Muhammad instructed its use. In fact, verse 24:60 says that the veil is optional only for unmarried women too old to have children.

CAIR's Jamal Badawi, often held up as a moderate scholar, insists that the hijab is "a command of Allah to Muslim women" and it should be "the duty of the state" to enforce it.

Some women do wear the hijab by choice, but it is impossible to say what percentage, since the pressure to cover one's head can either be subtle or pronounced. In 2011, an imam at a supposedly moderate mosque in Sammamish, Washington claimed that Muslim wives wear the hijab because they want to, but then stated that they may be "punished" if they refuse. In Pakistan, uncovered women are routinely attacked with acid. In Iran, Basij fundamentalists have raped and killed dress code violators.

Clerics, such as Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, have said that unveiled victims of public rape invited their attackers: "If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.' Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn't have snatched it... If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem."

In responding to a 2014 anti-hijab demonstration by women, an Iranian activist bluntly said that "it is a man's right to benefit from what he loves. When a man forces himself onto a woman because she is "showing off her beauty", this [should not] be considered rape."

In keeping with this theme, Muslim rapists in the West have been known to credit their motivation to the victim's choice of dress (one such example being from Australia in 2011). It is somewhat obvious that many women rely on the veil for protection against unwanted male attention. Even non-Muslim residents and Western visitors to the Islamic world often find it necessary to cover themselves so as to avoid the harassment of Muslim men on the street.

In 2014, a cleric suggested that babies be put into burqas to protect them against molestation. (Condemning the child molesters did eventually occur to him as an afterthought).

Veils and burqas are becoming more common in Muslim countries with the resurgence of Islamic fundamentalism. In the West, they are gradually becoming a chic statement of political protest or a symbol of religious distinction.
 http://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/veils.aspx 

The American women stuck within those LDS faith based communities are kept by fear/mind control and lack of modern education --- it's what 'MEN' do; doesn't make it right but it can't be blamed on an entire group of one form of religion either! 
Not all LDS/Mormons treat their women in that archaic way and have turned away from polygamy and the exile of their young men.

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:25 pm

aspca4ever wrote:As with 'ANY MALE DRIVEN' method for controlling the 'WOMEN' within that faith; the insurgence of radical Islamic behavior, {terrorist know how to demonize and control} has returned to many regions within the middle east. And in order to survive the humans do as they are told; does this mean that those living there have a 'CHOICE' --- no, not at all. 
But the same can be said and applied to our own pockets of LDS communities right here in America; the church of the later day saints is rife with: child abuse, sexual deviations, mandatory dress for children and females, limited education up to grades 8, polygamy, male youths being driven out of their families and communities around the age of 15!

And now places that had shown modernization for women's attire have become over run with Terrorist and their need to CONTROL:

The American women stuck within those LDS faith based communities are kept by fear/mind control and lack of modern education --- it's what 'MEN' do; doesn't make it right but it can't be blamed on an entire group of one form of religion either! 
Not all LDS/Mormons treat their women in that archaic way and have turned away from polygamy and the exile of their young men.


Nobody is denying its completely the religion, its also historically a cultural issue, but it does stem back to the times of Muhammad and before, where again women were controlled and ignoring this issue, is not going to change it. This is why it bugs me no end when so called liberals try to defend a form of dress that is designed for one purpose, to subjugate women and control them. That they are defending a form of dress, that is drummed into women, as if they are at fault for their beauty and even worse they are at fault for being harassed.
Again Muslim women are still raped, no mater what they wear and its a mindset taught very much but a substantial proportion of religious leaders and where there is a higher rate of illiteracy, they problem is far greater.
Its not even radical, as this is something that has been an obligation for centuries. Here is the real kicker, with the advent of colonialism, we have seen a relaxation from many of those countries heavily influence by them, like Algeria, Morocco etc. For all the bad Colonialism did, at least it had some effect on striving to bring women the reality they had a voice and rights.


But my points still stand



The Burka is compulsory within many Whabbism sects of Islam

Now in our societies its compulsory to wear school uniforms in some schools.

Now if the child does not wear the uniform, what happens?

They are punished.

Whether that be anything from being sent home to suspension.

That means the child has no choice but to wear that uniform by attending that school

The same applies to the woman who attends that Islamic doctrine, this is their uniform in Wahhabism

Its compulsory in the doctrine to wear. So how is it a choice, if they believe they will be punished for not wearing?

Its not a choice when following that doctrine, they have to wear, as its compulsory.

They are brainwashed at a young age to believe they will be punished in the afterlife, if they do not cover themselves, saying it is haram.

Girls of the youngest ages are taught to be at fault for their beauty and so to cover up this beauty. Wrongly believing this will deter men harassing them. If that was the case, then why are still Muslim women the victims of rape?

The only real choice is whether they leave that doctrine of Islam or not, which is impossible for many because of their families.

If they leave Islam, in certain countries, that means their death

So again how is it a choice?

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Post by Guest on Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:33 pm

aspca4ever wrote:As with 'ANY MALE DRIVEN' method for controlling the 'WOMEN' within that faith; the insurgence of radical Islamic behavior, {terrorist know how to demonize and control} has returned to many regions within the middle east. And in order to survive the humans do as they are told; does this mean that those living there have a 'CHOICE' --- no, not at all. 
But the same can be said and applied to our own pockets of LDS communities right here in America; the church of the later day saints is rife with: child abuse, sexual deviations, mandatory dress for children and females, limited education up to grades 8, polygamy, male youths being driven out of their families and communities around the age of 15!

And now places that had shown modernization for women's attire have become over run with Terrorist and their need to CONTROL:

Notes



Islamic law (Sharia) requires women to cover themselves. The practical application in modern Muslim countries varies with a combination of individual and social taste. The Taliban require full burqas (covering everything, including a mesh for the eyes), while the more secular governments of Turkey and Tunisia once banned headscarves in public buildings (the bans have since been lifted following the Islamist ascension).

The head covering is interpreted as a symbol of male domination by most critics and by many Muslim women who fight for the right to dress as they please. In December of 2007, a father in Canada beat his 16-year-old daughter to death for refusing to wear the hijab (headscarf).

Some apologists insist that the veil is not mandated by the religion, although they do not have anything within the sacred texts to counter the passages in which Muhammad instructed its use. In fact, verse 24:60 says that the veil is optional only for unmarried women too old to have children.

CAIR's Jamal Badawi, often held up as a moderate scholar, insists that the hijab is "a command of Allah to Muslim women" and it should be "the duty of the state" to enforce it.

Some women do wear the hijab by choice, but it is impossible to say what percentage, since the pressure to cover one's head can either be subtle or pronounced. In 2011, an imam at a supposedly moderate mosque in Sammamish, Washington claimed that Muslim wives wear the hijab because they want to, but then stated that they may be "punished" if they refuse. In Pakistan, uncovered women are routinely attacked with acid. In Iran, Basij fundamentalists have raped and killed dress code violators.

Clerics, such as Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, have said that unveiled victims of public rape invited their attackers: "If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.' Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn't have snatched it... If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem."

In responding to a 2014 anti-hijab demonstration by women, an Iranian activist bluntly said that "it is a man's right to benefit from what he loves. When a man forces himself onto a woman because she is "showing off her beauty", this [should not] be considered rape."

In keeping with this theme, Muslim rapists in the West have been known to credit their motivation to the victim's choice of dress (one such example being from Australia in 2011). It is somewhat obvious that many women rely on the veil for protection against unwanted male attention. Even non-Muslim residents and Western visitors to the Islamic world often find it necessary to cover themselves so as to avoid the harassment of Muslim men on the street.

In 2014, a cleric suggested that babies be put into burqas to protect them against molestation. (Condemning the child molesters did eventually occur to him as an afterthought).

Veils and burqas are becoming more common in Muslim countries with the resurgence of Islamic fundamentalism. In the West, they are gradually becoming a chic statement of political protest or a symbol of religious distinction.
 http://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/veils.aspx 

The American women stuck within those LDS faith based communities are kept by fear/mind control and lack of modern education --- it's what 'MEN' do; doesn't make it right but it can't be blamed on an entire group of one form of religion either! 
Not all LDS/Mormons treat their women in that archaic way and have turned away from polygamy and the exile of their young men.


Indeed, misogyny is a world wide problem.  We have a woman killed ever 3 days here by her partner/husband/lover/ex lover/ex husband etc.  Men thinking they have the right to control women is as old as the world.

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Post by eddie on Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:36 pm

I can only keep repeating what I always say: I went two different colleges and you had two type of Muslims.

One type were strong, independent women that said they'd never ever be told what to do and their dress was their choice. They wore the Burkha etc
The others, dropped off by dads/husbands and then changing into western clothing (very revealing clothing too) from their more "subdued" dress.
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