WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

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WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:11 am

First topic message reminder :

Muslim nations around the world have decided to join forces and set up a military coalition to combat terrorism. There has been increasing pressure on Muslim nations, especially the rich Gulf states, to do more to fight against the Islamic State (Isis) militant group.

The alliance, led by Saudi Arabia, will see 34 Muslim nations join forces to "protect the Islamic nation from the evils of all terrorist groups and organisations." Majority Shi'ite Muslim Iran was conspicuous by its absence from the list of nations.

A statement published by Saudi Arabia's state news agency SPA said more than 10 countries, including Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country, have "expressed their support" for the alliance and will take the necessary measures. A joint operations centre will be set up in Riyadh to coordinate and support military operations to fight terrorism and "to develop the necessary programmes and mechanisms to support these efforts."

The statement said that "appropriate arrangements" will be developed for coordination with "friendly peace-loving nations" and international bodies to support international efforts to combat terrorism.

The joint statement was accompanied by a rare press conference by Saudi Arabia's deputy crown prince, second deputy prime minister and minister of defense, 30-year-old Mohammad bin Salman Al Saud. However, he failed to give any insight on how the military cooperation aims to undertake its fight against terrorism.

Salman told reporters on 15 December that the campaign would "coordinate" efforts to fight terrorism in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt and Afghanistan but did not say how this will be carried out. "There will be international coordination with major powers and international organisations ... in terms of operations in Syria and Iraq. We can't undertake these operations without coordinating with legitimacy in this place and the international community," he added.

When asked if the new alliance will focus on just fighting IS (Daesh), Salman said the coalition would confront "any terrorist organisation that appears in front of us," including Isis.

Saudi Arabia and its Gulf Arab neighbours have been involved in a nine month warfare with Iran-allied rebels in neighbouring Yemen. A ceasefire however is set to take effect in Yemen on 15 December, alongside United Nations-backed peace talks. The joint statement on the military alliance to fight IS may be an indication of Saudi Arabia's decision to turn its attention back to pressing conflicts at the north of its borders.

IS has vowed to overthrow the monarchies of the Gulf and have launched a series of attacks on Shi'ite Muslim mosques and security forces in both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The joint statement said the terrorism and its atrocities constitute a serious violation of human dignity and rights, especially the right to life and the right to security. It said: "Terrorism cannot be justified in any way, and hence it should be fought by all means and collaboration should be made to eliminate it."

It vowed the protect nations from "the evils of all armed groups and terrorist organisations- whatever their doctrine or title - which spread killing and corruption in the world and are designed to terrorise the innocent."
The 34 nations include:

  • Jordan;
  • United Arab Emirates;
  • Pakistan;
  • Bahrain;
  • Bangladesh;
  • Benin;
  • Turkey;
  • Chad;
  • Togo;
  • Tunisia;
  • Djibouti;
  • Senegal;
  • Sudan;
  • Sierra Leone;
  • Somalia;
  • Gabon;
  • Guinea;
  • Palestine;
  • Comoros;
  • Qatar;
  • Cote d'Ivoire;
  • Kuwait;
  • Lebanon;
  • Libya;
  • Maldives;
  • Mali;
  • Malaysia;
  • Egypt;
  • Morocco;
  • Mauritania;
  • Niger;
  • Nigeria; and
  • Yemen.


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/34-Muslim-nations-finally-get-together-set-military-alliance-fight-terrorism-1533357


Given what the Saudis are doing in Yemem, not sure if this is a good or bad thing at the moment, whether it is what they say it is, or a grab for power.  Will have to see how this one pans out.  Certainly puts a spoke in the wheel of those who contend that Daesh is Islamic and all Muslims support terror.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:08 pm

Hitler viewed them very much with many arguments you see made of Muslims today.  The religion being incompatiable with german values, a claim to them being communists, raping german women, etc. many israelis though today follow secular views. His claim to who are true Jews is also very racist denying them their identity, as they do not have to be religious.
The list is endless, hence for a Muslim to argue and justify the non existance of some extremist jews off one of the worst attrocities in history is so poor that there can never ever be any defence for that and like I say only a narative of hate would make someone think and believe something as disgusting as that.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:56 pm

Richard The Lionheart wrote:Hitler viewed them very much with many arguments you see made of Muslims today.  The religion being incompatiable with german values, a claim to them being communists, raping german women, etc. many israelis though today follow secular views. His claim to who are true Jews is also very racist denying them their identity, as they do not have to be religious.
The list is endless, hence for a Muslim to argue and justify the non existance of some extremist jews off one of the worst attrocities in history is so poor that there can never ever be any defence for that and like I say only a narative of hate would make someone think and believe something as disgusting as that.

Well there were Jewish protesters in New York who seemed to go along with what Zack was saying.

NEW YORK (AP) — Marchers in the Israel Day Parade up Fifth Avenue faced some dissonant spectators: Orthodox Jews who don’t believe Israel should exist.

Standing near them at Sunday’s celebration were other Orthodox men heckling gay marchers while hoisting signs that read: “Judaism considers male homosexuality a sin worse than murder.”

But mostly, New York’s annual celebration of Israel was greeted by tens of thousands of spectators devoted to the Jewish state. As usual, security was especially tight for a parade that is a potential terrorist target, as are other prominent Jewish venues in New York City.

The anti-Israel protesters are members of a group that calls for a dismantling of the Jewish state. They believe Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of their messiah.


http://www.salon.com/2015/06/01/israel_day_parade_faces_jewish_anti_israel_protesters/

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:31 am

Richard The Lionheart wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Everyone now knows that Zionism (as SM said) are the worst of the anti Semitics and have hijacked and desecrate the Jewish religion.

This is not my view. These are the views of true Jews who believe Jews cannot rule Israel until the return of their messiah.

According to these true Jews, Zionists are the true enemy of Judaism.  And like ISIS have hijacked Islam, these Jews believe Zionism has done the same to Judaism and must be eroded, if not eridicatd as a movement.

Of course people like Didge think all Muslims are ISIS, so no wonder he thinks all Jews are Zionists. This is the mentality of ignorance.


Again how can you say what a true jew is?

That ius blatantly absurd and again being a jew is not just religious but an ethnic group, where Hitler viewed them very much as a subhuman race.
You then lie and claim I view all Muslims as Isis to detract away from her disgusting comment.

Again Hitlers objective was the final solution to the liquidation of the Jews.
To say he should have finished the Job, would have meant the extermination of all Jews.
She makes no distinction between zionism and a Jews, thus making them all culpable.

Even if we take the view she only meant these extremist israeli's celebrating do you realise the implications for their them to cease to exist?

Most of them are unlikely to have been through the holocaust as they would have to be at least 70 years plus old. That would mean condemning to death countless of their ancestors whether parents , grand parents etc, in order for them to ceased to exist. Not only condemning a numerous amount of their ancestors would have meant countless more Jews alive today who had no part on this celebrating and thus also ceasing to exist based off hating some extremist Jews and you make poor excuses for a disgusting comment as she did

someone that follow Judaism Suspect Suspect Suspect

otherwise they may be 'Jewish decent' or Israeli...  but the fact their ancestors were twats that believe in a stupid sky giant doesn't follow the generations that break the bonds of religious oppression.  If they are smart enough to not follow the Dumb asses why should they be grouped with the dumb asses?

I am going to be really inflammatory here, But i don't think Jews should exist just like i don't think Muslim or Christians shouldn't exist, the world should promote education, scientific methodology and the use of logic and reasoning. the end goal and result of all those things is the end of all forms of Abrahamism as Abrahamism is Factually and inherently Incorrect. there is no escaping the fact that if Everyone was taught and believed the 'truth of the universe' then there would be no Abrahamists as they believe things that are not true.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:37 am

and I'm going to be counter inflamatory (cos I'm an asshole) and say to you

as they believe things that are not true.
prove it!!

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:56 am

Lord Foul wrote:and I'm going to be counter inflamatory (cos I'm an asshole) and say to you

as they believe things that are not true.
prove it!!

Easy... their book says the sun revolves around the earth in a geocentric system, while saying their god knows everything and their book is his exact words and description of reality..
Smile well, the Universe is not a Earth based geocentric system...  Pretty open and shut case, not really any room for varying interpretations either. Clearly says the sun and the star revolve around the earth which they do not.  And therefor by there own claim of Omniscience and Omnipotence render the Entire religion completely Incorrect.

I clearly Said Abrahamist didn't I  tongue tongue tongue

Druidism is like 'the dreaming'... Smart enough to NOT WRITE SHIT DOWN Razz Razz Razz Razz

this is why I defend Faith but attack Abrahamism
Faith in itself is not inherently incorrect BUT Specific faiths may be, it depends on what information they presented as 'fact'.
Religions/faith should be judged like people on their individual merits. Wink

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:02 am

oh no...you dont get away that easily

an error in one part does not invalidate the whole...

otherwise we would have to throw away the entire body of scientific knowlege

all you have done with that is prove that the guy writing down the original didnt know /understand what he was writing

what you HAVE to do...is prove that the abrahamist god doesnt exist.....anything less and you come up agaisnt an impenetrable barrier of ..."how do you know it isnt part of gods plan to disinform his pets...I mean...gods have been known to tell porkies before you know

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:30 am

Yes it does as it clearly states to be perfect.
it is the Claim of perfection that is it's undoing.
So no it is not applicable to science that doesn't not claim perfection OR any other god that doesn't claim to be perfect.

So the Main point is that it is wrong about being perfect, but it is actually wrong about 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of the universe just by suggesting a geocentric system.

All Abrahamism is WHAT THOSE GUYS WROTE

General monotheism is Completely different and technically Abrahamist ARE SUPPOSED TO KILL General Monotheist.

Abrahamism is PROVEN WRONG there really is no debate.
that NO God Exists is not, but their God 100% proven beyond all doubt to be Factually Incorrect a.k.a Complete Bullshit



In hundreds of passages, the Bible declares or takes the position explicitly or implicitly that it is nothing less than the very Word of God.
Some thirty-eight hundred times the Bible declares, “God said,” or “Thus says the Lord” (e.g. Ex. 14:1; 20:1; Lev. 4:1; Num. 4:1; Deut. 4:2; 32:48; Isa. 1:10, 24; Jer. 1:11; Ezek. 1:3; etc.). Paul also recognized that the things he was writing were the Lord’s commandments (1 Cor. 14:37), and they were acknowledged as such by the believers (1 Thess. 2:13). Peter proclaimed the certainty of the Scriptures and the necessity of heeding the unalterable and certain Word of God (2 Pet. 1:16-21). John too recognized that his teaching was from God; to reject his teaching was to reject God (1 John 4:6).17


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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:52 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Richard The Lionheart wrote:Hitler viewed them very much with many arguments you see made of Muslims today.  The religion being incompatiable with german values, a claim to them being communists, raping german women, etc. many israelis though today follow secular views. His claim to who are true Jews is also very racist denying them their identity, as they do not have to be religious.
The list is endless, hence for a Muslim to argue and justify the non existance of some extremist jews off one of the worst attrocities in history is so poor that there can never ever be any defence for that and like I say only a narative of hate would make someone think and believe something as disgusting as that.

Well there were Jewish protesters in New York who seemed to go along with what Zack was saying.

NEW YORK (AP) — Marchers in the Israel Day Parade up Fifth Avenue faced some dissonant spectators: Orthodox Jews who don’t believe Israel should exist.

Standing near them at Sunday’s celebration were other Orthodox men heckling gay marchers while hoisting signs that read: “Judaism considers male homosexuality a sin worse than murder.”

But mostly, New York’s annual celebration of Israel was greeted by tens of thousands of spectators devoted to the Jewish state. As usual, security was especially tight for a parade that is a potential terrorist target, as are other prominent Jewish venues in New York City.

The anti-Israel protesters are members of a group that calls for a dismantling of the Jewish state. They believe Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of their messiah.


http://www.salon.com/2015/06/01/israel_day_parade_faces_jewish_anti_israel_protesters/



Again what does that prove?
Nothing.
Nobody can say who is a true Jews and again a Jew is both an ethnicity or those of a religion and being as Christianity is a form of Judaism itself, where do you wish to draw the line? Just because somebody disagrees with something does that makes that they are right? The Quran for example actually preaches of a return of Jews to the land.


[i]To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs:
As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him:
"O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery! Moses said,
"Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none,
But the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence:
And I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"
So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth:
But We did drown him and all who were with him.
And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel,
"Dwell securely in the land (of promise)":
But when the second of the warnings came to pass,
We gather you together in a mingled crowd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel


Are then Muslims not true Muslims for denying the land to the Jews?


Again what is even worse they view zionism as if it is an extremist ideology, which it is nothing of the sort. Yet they use the view to make out it is like a terrorist group to again dehumanise Jews, to make it acceptable to not only hate jews but to dehumanize them to kill them. Look at Zacks words and how ecen Sexy wants to have those cheering Israeli extremists to be as in the holucasut either starved to death, gassed or shot. That is an appalling aspect, whether you disagree with a belief or not, nobody is under world threat from zionism. They thus excuse hating something so in order to hate a substancial amount of Jews. There is no defense for what sesy it was abhorant. Neither are descended from Jordanian Arabs which is what the palestinians nationality has been created solely in opposition to Israel. Why would two Muslims oppose the state of Israe; who's only connections is Islam? Because they like many Muslims have been fed a narative of hate denying the existance of Israel. They see dead bodies of children in a conflict and have care of ethic onto the extreme and little care that hamas places on human life, being they use human shields, they deny shelters from conflicts for civillians and place an emphasis on martydom.

So back to the point on what would make the true Jew, Christian or Muslim, well there is nothing to show what would be mainly because the works cannot be substanciated and thus you can only go off again the views of men. Nobody can prove these deities exist, there are outside sources used which are even less reliable and even works omitted from these faiths of which others take more, literally. So to say what is true based off unreliable written sources if is fundemetally flawed.

What I am proving beyond a shadow of a doubt is that there is a massive narative of hate against jews, by Muslims because they will simple not allow the existance of a land that is not Muslim controlled, based off Muslims themselves once being conquererss. Its time the left stood up and recognised a real problem of antisemitism in the Muslim world which is fundemntally driving many of the problems in the Middle East

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:43 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Richard The Lionheart wrote:Hitler viewed them very much with many arguments you see made of Muslims today.  The religion being incompatiable with german values, a claim to them being communists, raping german women, etc. many israelis though today follow secular views. His claim to who are true Jews is also very racist denying them their identity, as they do not have to be religious.
The list is endless, hence for a Muslim to argue and justify the non existance of some extremist jews off one of the worst attrocities in history is so poor that there can never ever be any defence for that and like I say only a narative of hate would make someone think and believe something as disgusting as that.

Well there were Jewish protesters in New York who seemed to go along with what Zack was saying.

NEW YORK (AP) — Marchers in the Israel Day Parade up Fifth Avenue faced some dissonant spectators: Orthodox Jews who don’t believe Israel should exist.

Standing near them at Sunday’s celebration were other Orthodox men heckling gay marchers while hoisting signs that read: “Judaism considers male homosexuality a sin worse than murder.”

But mostly, New York’s annual celebration of Israel was greeted by tens of thousands of spectators devoted to the Jewish state. As usual, security was especially tight for a parade that is a potential terrorist target, as are other prominent Jewish venues in New York City.

The anti-Israel protesters are members of a group that calls for a dismantling of the Jewish state. They believe Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of their messiah.


http://www.salon.com/2015/06/01/israel_day_parade_faces_jewish_anti_israel_protesters/

Does that mean that "true Jews" are like Hamas?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:44 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Richard The Lionheart wrote:


Again how can you say what a true jew is?

That ius blatantly absurd and again being a jew is not just religious but an ethnic group, where Hitler viewed them very much as a subhuman race.
You then lie and claim I view all Muslims as Isis to detract away from her disgusting comment.

Again Hitlers objective was the final solution to the liquidation of the Jews.
To say he should have finished the Job, would have meant the extermination of all Jews.
She makes no distinction between zionism and a Jews, thus making them all culpable.

Even if we take the view she only meant these extremist israeli's celebrating do you realise the implications for their them to cease to exist?

Most of them are unlikely to have been through the holocaust as they would have to be at least 70 years plus old. That would mean condemning to death countless of their ancestors whether parents , grand parents etc, in order for them to ceased to exist. Not only condemning a numerous amount of their ancestors would have meant countless more Jews alive today who had no part on this celebrating and thus also ceasing to exist based off hating some extremist Jews and you make poor excuses for a disgusting comment as she did

someone that follow Judaism Suspect Suspect Suspect

otherwise they may be 'Jewish decent' or Israeli...  but the fact their ancestors were twats that believe in a stupid sky giant doesn't follow the generations that break the bonds of religious oppression.  If they are smart enough to not follow the Dumb asses why should they be grouped with the dumb asses?

I am going to be really inflammatory here, But i don't think Jews should exist just like i don't think Muslim or Christians shouldn't exist, the world should promote education, scientific methodology and the use of logic and reasoning. the end goal and result of all those things is the end of all forms of Abrahamism as Abrahamism is Factually and inherently Incorrect. there is no escaping the fact that if Everyone was taught and believed the 'truth of the universe' then there would be no Abrahamists as they believe things that are not true.

So you don't think that Jews should exist but you think that Muslims and Christians should exist? You need to watch your double negatives.


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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:47 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:and I'm going to be counter inflamatory (cos I'm an asshole) and say to you

as they believe things that are not true.
prove it!!

Easy... their book says the sun revolves around the earth in a geocentric system, while saying their god knows everything and their book is his exact words and description of reality..
Smile well, the Universe is not a Earth based geocentric system...  Pretty open and shut case, not really any room for varying interpretations either. Clearly says the sun and the star revolve around the earth which they do not.  And therefor by there own claim of Omniscience and Omnipotence render the Entire religion completely Incorrect.

I clearly Said Abrahamist didn't I  tongue tongue tongue

Druidism is like 'the dreaming'... Smart enough to NOT WRITE SHIT DOWN Razz Razz Razz Razz

this is why I defend Faith but attack Abrahamism
Faith in itself is not inherently incorrect BUT Specific faiths may be, it depends on what information they presented as 'fact'.
Religions/faith should be judged like people on their individual merits. Wink

So which particular type of faith do you defend?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:03 am

Anyway, back on topic, do we have a definition of "terrorist group" yet from these nations? Let's hope that Turkey doesn't shoot down any more Russian jets on the grounds that the Russians are "terrorists" for backing Assad and going for the rebels, or that anyone defending the Kurds isn't seen as a "terrorist accomplice".

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:35 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:and I'm going to be counter inflamatory (cos I'm an asshole) and say to you

as they believe things that are not true.
prove it!!

Easy... their book says the sun revolves around the earth in a geocentric system, while saying their god knows everything and their book is his exact words and description of reality..
Smile well, the Universe is not a Earth based geocentric system...  Pretty open and shut case, not really any room for varying interpretations either. Clearly says the sun and the star revolve around the earth which they do not.  And therefor by there own claim of Omniscience and Omnipotence render the Entire religion completely Incorrect.

I clearly Said Abrahamist didn't I  tongue tongue tongue

Druidism is like 'the dreaming'... Smart enough to NOT WRITE SHIT DOWN Razz Razz Razz Razz

this is why I defend Faith but attack Abrahamism
Faith in itself is not inherently incorrect BUT Specific faiths may be, it depends on what information they presented as 'fact'.
Religions/faith should be judged like people on their individual merits. Wink

So which particular type of faith do you defend?

Any that is not Fundamentally proven impossible.
Buddhism, Taoism, Druidism, 'the dreaming', General spiritualism and Shamanism 

I must admit I have personal preference for Non-deist or Polytheist faiths. Wink

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Fuzzy Zack on Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:57 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
Richard The Lionheart wrote:Hitler viewed them very much with many arguments you see made of Muslims today.  The religion being incompatiable with german values, a claim to them being communists, raping german women, etc. many israelis though today follow secular views. His claim to who are true Jews is also very racist denying them their identity, as they do not have to be religious.
The list is endless, hence for a Muslim to argue and justify the non existance of some extremist jews off one of the worst attrocities in history is so poor that there can never ever be any defence for that and like I say only a narative of hate would make someone think and believe something as disgusting as that.

Well there were Jewish protesters in New York who seemed to go along with what Zack was saying.

NEW YORK (AP) — Marchers in the Israel Day Parade up Fifth Avenue faced some dissonant spectators: Orthodox Jews who don’t believe Israel should exist.

Standing near them at Sunday’s celebration were other Orthodox men heckling gay marchers while hoisting signs that read: “Judaism considers male homosexuality a sin worse than murder.”

But mostly, New York’s annual celebration of Israel was greeted by tens of thousands of spectators devoted to the Jewish state. As usual, security was especially tight for a parade that is a potential terrorist target, as are other prominent Jewish venues in New York City.

The anti-Israel protesters are members of a group that calls for a dismantling of the Jewish state. They believe Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of their messiah.


http://www.salon.com/2015/06/01/israel_day_parade_faces_jewish_anti_israel_protesters/

Exactly. I'm glad you checked for yourself and verified what I said.

Even Orthodox Jews believe Zionism is the enemy and a perversion of true Judaism.

Of course some on this board think they know more about Judaism and Islam than Jews and Muslims, even though they don't believe in or studied either faith.
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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:00 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

Well there were Jewish protesters in New York who seemed to go along with what Zack was saying.

NEW YORK (AP) — Marchers in the Israel Day Parade up Fifth Avenue faced some dissonant spectators: Orthodox Jews who don’t believe Israel should exist.

Standing near them at Sunday’s celebration were other Orthodox men heckling gay marchers while hoisting signs that read: “Judaism considers male homosexuality a sin worse than murder.”

But mostly, New York’s annual celebration of Israel was greeted by tens of thousands of spectators devoted to the Jewish state. As usual, security was especially tight for a parade that is a potential terrorist target, as are other prominent Jewish venues in New York City.

The anti-Israel protesters are members of a group that calls for a dismantling of the Jewish state. They believe Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of their messiah.


http://www.salon.com/2015/06/01/israel_day_parade_faces_jewish_anti_israel_protesters/

Exactly. I'm glad you checked for yourself and verified what I said.

Even Orthodox Jews believe Zionism is the enemy and a perversion of true Judaism.

Of course some on this board think they know more about Judaism and Islam than Jews and Muslims, even though they don't believe in or studied either faith.


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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:01 pm

So how these "true" Jews propose that Israel is dismantled exactly?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:02 pm

Also, aren't some of them going a bit far?

Standing near them at Sunday’s celebration were other Orthodox men heckling gay marchers while hoisting signs that read: “Judaism considers male homosexuality a sin worse than murder.”

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:13 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Everyone now knows that Zionism (as SM said) are the worst of the anti Semitics and have hijacked and desecrate the Jewish religion.

This is not my view. These are the views of true Jews who believe Jews cannot rule Israel until the return of their messiah.

According to these true Jews, Zionists are the true enemy of Judaism.  And like ISIS have hijacked Islam, these Jews believe Zionism has done the same to Judaism and must be eroded, if not eridicatd as a movement.

Of course people like Didge think all Muslims are ISIS, so no wonder he thinks all Jews are Zionists. This is the mentality of ignorance.

The return of their messiah?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:27 pm


WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE
First some introductions:
1) What is "The People of Israel" ?

  • The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.

  • They have their own particular, essential nature.

  • The Torah is the source of their essential nature.

  • Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.

  • Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.

  • The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.

  • Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.


2) What is Zionism?

  • Zionism is a relatively new thing.

  • It has only existed for a century.

  • Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.

  • Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.

  • Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.

  • This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.


The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:
FIRST -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above. The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation," and the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. This is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.
SECOND -- Because of all of this and other reasons the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. If we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.
THIRD -- Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.
FOURTH -- Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power from fulfilling the commands of the Torah, the claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight with all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.
The Zionists claim that they are the saviors of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things:
FIRST -- If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel in the period of the Zionists, and it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists, as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.

SECOND -- It is openly stated in books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they planned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did - They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Hameitzor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today. They incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the "saviors". Here are two replies given by Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d forbid).
Weitzman said, "The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant" (May we be spared).

THIRD -- We see that most of world Jewry lives in security and under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist State. Whereas many people have left the Zionist State to live under better conditions in other lands.

FOURTH -- The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate to their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.

FIFTH -- Because nobody wants the Zionists to "save" them. The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits, and even then very few people respond.

SIXTH -- The Zionist State is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry live in peace and security, (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)

SEVENTH -- The Zionist State could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist State.

EIGHTH -- The Zionist State is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.

NINTH -- The Zionist State persecute all Jews who are loyal to their Faith.

TENTH -- They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.

ELEVENTH - According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.

TWELFTH -- Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost.

It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.
Even though there are some observant Jews and rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.
The Zionists have enough control over the American news media to make sure that only their side of the story is heard.
They make it look like all Jewry and their rabbis are Zionists, but this is false propaganda.
The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American news media.
The Zionists terrorize everyone who speaks out against them.
That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.
Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.
We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.

1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. In every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.

2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.

3) The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. All the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.
However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their Faith because of the strength the Creator gives them.
Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure.
Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force, fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator.
Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist State will cease to exist.
It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL, should cease to exist. Since this won't be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves "Israel", because their entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.
Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. The truth will always remain the truth. By no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one is three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.
Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that State is a complete falsification. The People of Israel have nothing to do with that State. Zionism and its State have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm


This might give you some information as well

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:28 pm

The State of Israel is Zionist, it is NOT Jewish, the two are not the same.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:32 pm

You see it seems some here need even more education


Zionism has many different view points, the theological aspect funnilly enough that Zack calls for is based on Biblicsl law.
No thanks.
This is based on a messiah and again of these some also believe of a Jewish home in Israel. To say who is the true Jews is a complete again interpretation.

The fact is Zionism has many different definitions as I already mentioned already, again to say what is okay is again as seen here Zack viewing fundementally a religiou one that would impose religious law.

Quelle surprise.

The point is most Israeli Jews back a Jewish home in Israel

So again this begs the question, why is that something to be hated?

Simple because that means to hate this is to hate Israel existing.

This its easy to get by antisemitism by hating a belig through the cover of being anti-zionist, but as seen this falls apart if as seen that hate is directed at the vast majority of Israeli Jews, whos only crime to these anti-zionists is wanting a Jewish home in what is to them regarded as israel.

That means those who are anti=zionists are anti Jew and very much anti_israel

It does not get much more antisemitism than that because they believe the land should be Muslim

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:34 pm

sassy wrote:The State of Israel is Zionist, it is NOT Jewish, the two are not the same.


Pure Racism


Jewish is a culture, ethnicity and or a religion.
Hitler was anti all of them
The left and Muslims deny Jewish ethnicity.

Now imagine their reasoning to immigrants who are Muslims, as it would be the same as far rights

They have no right to be here on in this lands.
To the far right these lands are British and Christians?

See the same hate reasoningt the Left and some Muslims use, except here they deny a Jewish identity which is based on them only viewing a Jew as only religious


That is fundemnetllay racist

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:36 pm

No Didge, it is not racism, it is fact.  Orthodox Jews do not recognise Israel, and to be Zionist you don't have to be Jewish.  Many Zionist are secular, it has only been around since about the 1880s, Judism has been here a hell of a lot longer than that.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:37 pm

So I asl again  what is there to hate a zionist who views a Jewish home in Israel?

There is nothing to hate, unless you hate the existance of Israel

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:38 pm

sassy wrote:No Didge, it is not racism, it is fact.  Orthodox Jews do not recognise Israel, and to be Zionist you don't have to be Jewish.  Many Zionist are secular, it has only been around since about the 1880s, Judism has been here a hell of a lot longer than that.


So you are saying millions of Jews are not Jews if not religious?

That is fundementally racist.

Jewish is both an ethnicty and ror religious

To be zionist you can be very religious viewing a messiah.

Which shows you have never even studied Zionism or all schools of orthodox Judaism

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:39 pm

What hatred was discussed?  Rags asked about Orthodox Jews saying that Israel should not exist because the Messiah has not yet come.  That is part of Orthodox Judism.  If you don't know about that, your ignorance on the subject is astounding.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:41 pm

Orthodox Jews are NOT Zionist, yet again you show your ignorance of Judism.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:41 pm

sassy wrote:What hatred was discussed?  Rags asked about Orthodox Jews saying that Israel should not exist because the Messiah has not yet come.  That is part of Orthodox Judism.  If you don't know about that, your ignorance on the subject is astounding.


Which shows how little you know about orthodox judiasm

So lets ask a simple question

Do you hate the belief of a Jews to have a home for Jews in israel?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:43 pm

Stop diverting, Orthodox Jews despise the State of Israel.   If you don't know or acknowledge that, you are completely ignorant.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:45 pm

sassy wrote:Stop diverting, Orthodox Jews despise the State of Israel.   If you don't know or acknowledge that, you are completely ignorant.


Some orthodox Jews do, not all Orthodox Jews do, hence your error


So lets ask a simple question

Do you hate the belief of  Jews to have a home for Jews in israel?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:46 pm

I'm no Zionist, but Israel is there now, so how is it going to be dismantled, and where will they all go?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:46 pm

Thanks, but I'd rather use the Orthodox Jewish sites and Orthodox Jewish people.

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Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:47 pm

sassy wrote:Thanks, but I'd rather use the Orthodox Jewish sites and Orthodox Jewish people.


Which means you are dicing who is an orthordox Jew, which you have no right to say who is or who is not.
Funny as that is what you claim of the those who say of islam as well

I see you avoid the questions and the fact you were very much in error on zionism which has many forms

So lets ask a simple question

Do you hate the belief of a Jews to have a home for Jews in israel?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:49 pm

sassy wrote:Orthodox Jews are NOT Zionist, yet again you show your ignorance of Judism.

They are Zionists, they just don't think the time is right yet, according to the info in this thread.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:50 pm

Good grief, I do say who is an Orthodox Jew.  Orthodox Jews are the ones who say they are and follow the old rules.

Rags, the link I gave you earlier about the Messiah:

The Messianic Idea in Judaism

Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.
Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The mashiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the mashiach; thus, the concept of mashiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "mashiach" will be used throughout this page.
Some gentiles have told me that the term "mashiach" is related to the Hebrew term "moshiah" (savior) because they sound similar, but the similarity is not as strong as it appears to one unfamiliar with Hebrew. The Hebrew word "mashiach" comes from the root Mem-Shin-Chet, which means to paint, smear, or annoint. The word "moshiah" comes from the root Yod-Shin-Ayin, which means to help or save. The only letter these roots have in common is Shin, the most common letter in the Hebrew language. The "m" sound at the beginning of the word moshiah (savior) is a common prefix used to turn a verb into a noun. For example, the verb tzavah (to command) becomes mitzvah (commandment). Saying that "mashiach" is related to "moshiah" is a bit like saying that ring is related to surfing because they both end in "ing."

The Mashiach

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach.

When Will the Mashiach Come?

There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the mashiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the mashiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the mashiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the mashiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the mashiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the mashiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the mashiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the mashiach will come:

  • if Israel repented a single day;
  • if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
  • if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
  • in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
  • in a generation that loses hope;
  • in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;

What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age

The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.
Some gentiles have tried to put an ugly spin on this theology, claiming that Jews plan to force people to convert to our religion, perhaps based on their own religion's history of doing exactly the same thing. That is not at all how Jews understand the messianic age. We believe that in that future time, everyone will simply know what the truth is, in the same way that we know that 2+2=4, and there will no longer be any reason to argue about it. It is much like a situation I witnessed at work once: two computer programmers were arguing loudly and at length about whether it was possible for a user to input data at a certain point in a program. Finally someone pressed a key and they all saw that nothing happened. Now they knew the truth, end of argument. When mashiach comes, theological truths will be equally obvious to mankind, and there will be no reason to argue about it.

What About Jesus?

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the mashiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a mashiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the mashiach.
Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the mashiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the mashiach: Shimeon Bar Kokhba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the entry for meshiekh in The New Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the mashiach; therefore, none of them were the mashiach. The mashiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.

Biblical Passages Referring to the Mashiach

The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:

  • Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
  • Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
  • Ezekiel 38:16
  • Hosea 3:4-3:5
  • Micah 4
  • Zephaniah 3:9
  • Zechariah 14:9
  • Daniel 10:14

If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see Jews for Judaism, a counter-missionary organization not associated with this website, especially their article about Christian Proof-Texting.


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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:50 pm

You see this is how in two days I am easily able to prove the real views and intentions of those who hate israel and how fundemntally it is racist, where it denies their very identity.
Which again in the case of Nazism they viewed Jews as subhuman
Here to the racists, people cannot be Jewish unless based on orthordox Judaism
That is denying Jews their identity

That is racist

So lets see how badly sassy avoids this question

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:50 pm

Richard The Lionheart wrote:
sassy wrote:The State of Israel is Zionist, it is NOT Jewish, the two are not the same.


Pure Racism


Jewish is a culture, ethnicity and or a religion.
Hitler was anti all of them
The left and Muslims deny Jewish ethnicity.

Now imagine their reasoning to immigrants who are Muslims, as it would be the same as far rights

They have no right to be here on in this lands.
To the far right these lands are British and Christians?

See the same hate reasoningt the Left and some Muslims use, except here they deny a Jewish identity which is based on them only viewing a Jew as only religious


That is fundemnetllay racist

5, 4, 3, 2, 1, BINGO

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:51 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:Orthodox Jews are NOT Zionist, yet again you show your ignorance of Judism.

They are Zionists, they just don't think the time is right yet, according to the info in this thread.

No, Zionists do not believe it is necessary to have the coming of the Messiah to have a State of Israel, and believe that the Messiah will come to Israel.  Orthodox Jews believe that by having a State of Israel now, they are stopping the coming of the Messiah when the perfect State of Israel would be formed.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:52 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:Orthodox Jews are NOT Zionist, yet again you show your ignorance of Judism.

They are Zionists, they just don't think the time is right yet, according to the info in this thread.


At least you read and understand Rags

Now ask sassy what is wrong for a Jew to view the belief to have a jewish home in Israel

See how many times she will avoid

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:53 pm

I've already explained to Rags, you are beyond help because of your ignorance.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:53 pm

sassy wrote:I've already explained to Rags, you are beyond help because of your ignorance.

No, you pasted a load of stuff. So what is a Zionist Sassy?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:54 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Richard The Lionheart wrote:


Pure Racism


Jewish is a culture, ethnicity and or a religion.
Hitler was anti all of them
The left and Muslims deny Jewish ethnicity.

Now imagine their reasoning to immigrants who are Muslims, as it would be the same as far rights

They have no right to be here on in this lands.
To the far right these lands are British and Christians?

See the same hate reasoningt the Left and some Muslims use, except here they deny a Jewish identity which is based on them only viewing a Jew as only religious


That is fundemnetllay racist

5, 4, 3, 2, 1, BINGO


Hi mate

See how they use the same arguments of the far right?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:55 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:I've already explained to Rags, you are beyond help because of your ignorance.

No, you pasted a load of stuff. So what is a Zionist Sassy?


It's a couple of posts up, you are getting as bad as Didge at not reading, so I'll post it again:

No, Zionists do not believe it is necessary to have the coming of the Messiah to have a State of Israel, and believe that the Messiah will come to Israel.  Orthodox Jews believe that by having a State of Israel now, they are stopping the coming of the Messiah when the perfect State of Israel would be formed.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Guest on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:55 pm

sassy wrote:I've already explained to Rags, you are beyond help because of your ignorance.


And out comes the insuolt if you do not believe as sassy does


A true racist

Again what is wrong with a Jew if he backs a jewish home in israel?

What tis there to hate in that?

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by sassy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:56 pm

Diversion again.  The discussion was about the difference between Zionists and Orthodox Jews.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:57 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

No, you pasted a load of stuff. So what is a Zionist Sassy?


It's a couple of posts up, you are getting as bad as Didge at not reading, so I'll post it again:

No, Zionists do not believe it is necessary to have the coming of the Messiah to have a State of Israel, and believe that the Messiah will come to Israel.  Orthodox Jews believe that by having a State of Israel now, they are stopping the coming of the Messiah when the perfect State of Israel would be formed.

You can't say you've explained before I even replied. That's just silly.

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Re: WAR ON ISIS: 34 Muslim NATIONS JOIN FORCES WITH MILITARY ALLIANCE TO FIGHT DAESH TERRORISM

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:57 pm

Anyway, it sounds like hair-splitting to me.

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