students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

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students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by veya_victaous on Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:46 am

VICTORIAN students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.
This is one of the new rules put in place by the Victorian government to tackle how religion is taught in schools.
Students will also be allowed to dress up for the Hindu festival, Diwali, or indulge in sweet delights from Muslim’s Eid celebrations.
But looking at the Bible, Koran or any other religious text will be strictly banned in class time from next year.
Prayers and instructions on how to live in accordance to a particular faith will also be unacceptable in the classroom.
Under the new government plan, Special Religious Instruction can be taught in schools in the hour before or after school or at lunch times by an accredited instructor approved by the Minister for Education.
A teacher must also be present and children must have permission from their parents to attend.
Fairness in Religions in School chief executive Lara Wood has been fighting to eliminate Special Religious Instruction from state schools and while she welcomed the changes, she still had her concerns.
“We are worried about the lunchtime classes because we know from past experience the volunteers do try to convert the kids and don’t stick to the curriculum,” she said.
“We are concerned that could happen.”

Principals get to decide whether they want Special Religious Instruction within their school at all and Ms Wood commended the government for giving them more power.
“If a school did decide to take it on, it would mean a lot more work for schools because they will have to closely monitor the program to make sure the rules are being followed,” she said.
In Victorian state schools previously, children were being split up to learn about their religion during class time.
Ms Wood said school work was impacted and children were segregated.
“The new guidelines will remove this problem altogether though and I think it’s fantastic,” she said.
It will now be the teacher’s responsibility to educate children generally about religion and the main holidays and celebrations.
On occasion, guest speakers who are representatives of a particular faith can explain their religion further to students but they must not promote it.
Ms Wood said teaching children about all religions would make them more tolerant, respectful and accepting.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by *THE Ben Reilly* on Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:47 am

NO religion has a place in school, so it should all be banned ... let parents celebrate with their kids at home or in their cult headquarters. Religion should be taught like the arts, because that's basically what it is.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by veya_victaous on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:13 am

i think it has a place in history class to explain how people did such fucked up things to each other in the past.
Also to explain the method by which societies are controlled and conformity is enforced

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:24 am

History.....yes. Worship......no.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:00 am

So they can sing carols but not hymns. What is the difference?

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:10 am

I was trying to think of a carol that isn't a hymn, only one I can think of is Good King Wenceslas, even The Holly and The Ivy has religious overtones.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:13 am

sassy wrote:I was trying to think of a carol that isn't a hymn, only one I can think of is Good King Wenceslas, even The Holly and The Ivy has religious overtones.

Exactly. Laughing

Even the word "Christmas" has a religious meaning, so they'd have to change that too. I can see them all falling over themselves, spying on pupils to make sure that nobody mentions religion. Laughing

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:14 am

sassy wrote:I was trying to think of a carol that isn't a hymn, only one I can think of is Good King Wenceslas, even The Holly and The Ivy has religious overtones.

Ah its the pathetic waste of space who must have sucked up to Ben to stop her being banned.
Just to advise ben has been advised if he does not act, this will be taken up with forum motion and if this site gets binned all can blame again you for its downfall.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:14 am

Didge wrote:
sassy wrote:I was trying to think of a carol that isn't a hymn, only one I can think of is Good King Wenceslas, even The Holly and The Ivy has religious overtones.

Ah its the pathetic waste of space who must have sucked up to Ben to stop her being banned.
Just to advise ben has been advised if he does not act, this will be taken up with forum motion and if this site gets binned all can blame again you for its downfall.

Er ... isn't that a bit off topic?

What do you think about Christmas carols?

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:16 am

Well, I'm all for religion being kept out of schools, but I think they have set themselves a really hard task.  There are only so many times you can sing Good King Wenceslas.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:16 am

On occasion, guest speakers who are representatives of a particular faith can explain their religion further to students but they must not promote it.

That's going to be fairly difficult to enforce isn't it? How does one talk about one's own religion without sounding as if one's promoting it? Laughing

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:16 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

Ah its the pathetic waste of space who must have sucked up to Ben to stop her being banned.
Just to advise ben has been advised if he does not act, this will be taken up with forum motion and if this site gets binned all can blame again you for its downfall.

Er ... isn't that a bit off topic?

What do you think about Christmas carols?

Its daft to stop children singing carols, which are very much apart of Christmas.
If you are celebrating such events its ridiculous to omit aspects of Christmas.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:20 am

sassy wrote:Well, I'm all for religion being kept out of schools, but I think they have set themselves a really hard task.  There are only so many times you can sing Good King Wenceslas.

Even then they'd have to change some of the lyrics, and take out the reference to the Feast of Stephen, and the reference to Christian men. Laughing

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:22 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

Ah its the pathetic waste of space who must have sucked up to Ben to stop her being banned.
Just to advise ben has been advised if he does not act, this will be taken up with forum motion and if this site gets binned all can blame again you for its downfall.

Er ... isn't that a bit off topic?

What do you think about Christmas carols?

Well I'm Pagan, but the original Christmas Festival was Pagan, so I celebrate Yule and the Winter Solstice, so I have the lights up etc for that,     I love music and Christmas Carols evoke lots of memories so I don't worry about the words much, but I do have some Pagan carols:


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Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:25 am

And Silent Night has a Pagan version:


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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:27 am

Paganism isn't non-religious though.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:34 am

No, but it's more spiritual, and is more to do with the cycle of the Earth.  Some Pagans believe in the old Gods, some like me think that the Universe itself and it's energy, which we are all part of and remain part of, even after death, should be lived in tune with.  The Winter Solstice is anything from 20th - 23rd December, this year it's 22nd, but sometimes it falls on my birthday, which is the 20th, and that to me is very special.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:42 am

sassy wrote:No, but it's more spiritual, and is more to do with the cycle of the Earth.  Some Pagans believe in the old Gods, some like me think that the Universe itself and it's energy, which we are all part of and remain part of, even after death, should be lived in tune with.  The Winter Solstice is anything from 20th - 23rd December, this year it's 22nd, but sometimes it falls on my birthday, which is the 20th, and that to me is very special.

Nah, pagan songs are far too risky - some might become pagans as a result of hearing them. Laughing

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:46 am

How about Deck the Halls? I don't think there's a reference to religion in that one. I'm not sure about this line though.

Troll the ancient Yule tide carol,
rabbit

I suppose they could have Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, but that would be encouraging children to believe in a man with a beard flying around the sky.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:50 am

Raggamuffin wrote:How about Deck the Halls? I don't think there's a reference to religion in that one. I'm not sure about this line though.

Troll the ancient Yule tide carol,  
rabbit

I suppose they could have Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, but that would be encouraging children to believe in a man with a beard flying around the sky.

That made me laugh.  Hadn't thought of Deck the Halls, that's a good one.  Think poor old Rudolph might come under the heading of fairy stories.  Perhaps they could show 'Frozen' lol

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:52 am

On the wane - try telling that to the people who put out television adverts!

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:53 am

Stormee wrote:At my senior  school which was C of E we had assembly every morning which I opted out of, Roman Catholics had a choice of going in or not.
Our assemblies consisted of much sports talk as were into sports very very muchso.

It appeared Christianity was on the wane then and I think it is still waning quite a bit.

I can't remember what happened in our school assembly. I think it was mostly school announcements and that kind of thing.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:55 am

What would happen on Remembrance Sunday? Should any reference to God be banned from parades or services in public?

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:02 am

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:How about Deck the Halls? I don't think there's a reference to religion in that one. I'm not sure about this line though.


rabbit

I suppose they could have Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, but that would be encouraging children to believe in a man with a beard flying around the sky.

That made me laugh.  Hadn't thought of Deck the Halls, that's a good one.  Think poor old Rudolph might come under the heading of fairy stories.  Perhaps they could show 'Frozen' lol

Frosty the Snowman's out as well - it would be wrong to teach pupils that snowmen can talk on the grounds that it's a lie. Laughing

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:18 am

This could get very silly lol

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:56 am

Stormee wrote:
sassy wrote:On the wane - try telling that to the people who put out television adverts!

Migrants have nicked the lead from church roofs so Christians cannot pray there. lol

Nope, that will be the brain dead likes of the EDL etc.  Hopefully they will fall off the roof.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:13 pm

Didge wrote:
sassy wrote:I was trying to think of a carol that isn't a hymn, only one I can think of is Good King Wenceslas, even The Holly and The Ivy has religious overtones.

Ah its the pathetic waste of space who must have sucked up to Ben to stop her being banned.
Just to advise ben has been advised if he does not act, this will be taken up with forum motion and if this site gets binned all can blame again you for its downfall.

Oh Didge, knock it off. It's beneath you to carry on such personal gripes. Address the topic.

I think it's distinguishable to separate worship from mere holiday symbolism. Carols, ornaments and trees are mere symbols, whereas, say, holding a Christmas Mass at City Hall is worship. I don't know where the line is drawn, but certainly embracing the extremes is not the answer.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

Ah its the pathetic waste of space who must have sucked up to Ben to stop her being banned.
Just to advise ben has been advised if he does not act, this will be taken up with forum motion and if this site gets binned all can blame again you for its downfall.

Oh Didge, knock it off.  It's beneath you to carry on such personal gripes.  Address the topic.

I think it's distinguishable to separate worship from mere holiday symbolism.  Carols, ornaments and trees are mere symbols, whereas, say, holding a Christmas Mass at City Hall is worship.  I don't know where the line is drawn, but certainly embracing the extremes is not the answer.

Carols aren't "symbols" to Christians.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:24 pm

sassy wrote:And Silent Night has a Pagan version:


Quite beautiful. Very Celtic.

I think that Christmas was a co-opting of the ancient Winter Festival. In fact, I heard somewhere that Christ was actually born in late-October...they turned the winter festival into a birthday party for him, because it was already scheduled with invitations sent, so to speak.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:26 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Oh Didge, knock it off.  It's beneath you to carry on such personal gripes.  Address the topic.

I think it's distinguishable to separate worship from mere holiday symbolism.  Carols, ornaments and trees are mere symbols, whereas, say, holding a Christmas Mass at City Hall is worship.  I don't know where the line is drawn, but certainly embracing the extremes is not the answer.

Carols aren't "symbols" to Christians.

Yeah...they pretty much are. There may be a few of y'all around who take it seriously, but for the most part Christmas is a shopping spree for children.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:28 pm

Didge wrote:
sassy wrote:I was trying to think of a carol that isn't a hymn, only one I can think of is Good King Wenceslas, even The Holly and The Ivy has religious overtones.

Ah its the pathetic waste of space who must have sucked up to Ben to stop her being banned.
Just to advise ben has been advised if he does not act, this will be taken up with forum motion and if this site gets binned all can blame again you for its downfall.

Ah Quill, I didn't even notice this until you pointed it out.  And it's not beneath him, it's normal behaviour for him, what we have grown to expect, he's a cry-baby, can tell women to go and suck cock then grovel but howls and sobs if anyone pulls him up.

Didge, I haven't spoken to Ben, or pm'd him.  Unlike you, I don't go running to the teacher crying.  You'll go to forumotion with that will you.  Good luck, they don't give a damn.


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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:28 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

Ah its the pathetic waste of space who must have sucked up to Ben to stop her being banned.
Just to advise ben has been advised if he does not act, this will be taken up with forum motion and if this site gets binned all can blame again you for its downfall.

Oh Didge, knock it off.  It's beneath you to carry on such personal gripes.  Address the topic.

I think it's distinguishable to separate worship from mere holiday symbolism.  Carols, ornaments and trees are mere symbols, whereas, say, holding a Christmas Mass at City Hall is worship.  I don't know where the line is drawn, but certainly embracing the extremes is not the answer.

Mind your own business.

You have no idea what has occured.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:31 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I suppose they could have Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, but that would be encouraging children to believe in a man with a beard flying around the sky.

Um...isn't that pretty much what Christianity is?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:42 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I suppose they could have Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, but that would be encouraging children to believe in a man with a beard flying around the sky.

Um...isn't that pretty much what Christianity is?

I think you missed the point. If they're banning Christian hymns on the grounds that God doesn't exist, they should also ban any song which says that Father Christmas is real too.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:48 pm

Rags has a point.
If this is about celebrating Christmas, you really cannot leave out the religious aspect, as it is a Christian celebration
No matter that I agree religion should have no part in running a school, such festivals are integral part of education and integration between all faiths and non-faiths.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by *THE Ben Reilly* on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:48 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I suppose they could have Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, but that would be encouraging children to believe in a man with a beard flying around the sky.

Um...isn't that pretty much what Christianity is?

I think you missed the point. If they're banning Christian hymns on the grounds that God doesn't exist, they should also ban any song which says that Father Christmas is real too.

I don't think the point is to teach students God doesn't exist, but to not teach students that one particular version of God does exist, and not to be seen as endorsing any religious perspective.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:50 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I think you missed the point. If they're banning Christian hymns on the grounds that God doesn't exist, they should also ban any song which says that Father Christmas is real too.

I don't think the point is to teach students God doesn't exist, but to not teach students that one particular version of God does exist, and not to be seen as endorsing any religious perspective.


But is a religious festival Ben,a Christian one at that and as such should be taught as a Christian festival, the religious aspect and the non religious aspect, like Santa.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Carols aren't "symbols" to Christians.

Yeah...they pretty much are.  There may be a few of y'all around who take it seriously, but for the most part Christmas is a shopping spree for children.

I agree that's mostly what Christmas is about these days, but you're wrong about the carols.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:52 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I think you missed the point. If they're banning Christian hymns on the grounds that God doesn't exist, they should also ban any song which says that Father Christmas is real too.

I don't think the point is to teach students God doesn't exist, but to not teach students that one particular version of God does exist, and not to be seen as endorsing any religious perspective.

Well then they shouldn't encourage a belief in Santa then. He's different in the US - he wears the wrong clothes.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Syl on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:04 pm

What a 'bah humbug ' thread this has turned out to be.

Christmas by the very name is a Christian celebration...singing carols, father Christmas, decorations are all part of it.
Why should schools not enter into the spirit.
I should think anyone of a different faith would enjoy all the rituals without having to believe in the concept.

My hindu neighbours love all the joy of Christmas...we swap cards. pressies and their Christmas tree is always up before ours.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:06 pm

Syl wrote:What a 'bah humbug ' thread this has turned out to be.

Christmas by the very name is a Christian celebration...singing carols, father Christmas, decorations are all part of it.
Why should schools not enter into the spirit.
I should think anyone of a different faith would enjoy all the rituals without having to believe in the concept.

My hindu neighbours love all the joy of Christmas...we swap cards. pressies and their Christmas tree is always up before ours.

This schools are allowing all that stuff. My point was that if they don't want to encourage religious belief, they're being hypocritical in allowing carols but not hymns. I don't think they thought it through, and they're just histrionic about religion.


Last edited by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:07 pm

Syl wrote:What a 'bah humbug ' thread this has turned out to be.

Christmas by the very name is a Christian celebration...singing carols, father Christmas, decorations are all part of it.
Why should schools not enter into the spirit.
I should think anyone of a different faith would enjoy all the rituals without having to believe in the concept.

My hindu neighbours love all the joy of Christmas...we swap cards. pressies and their Christmas tree is always up before ours.

Yep, so do my Muslim friends.  In fact when I was in Tunisia, a littler village miles from anywhere had Christmas decorations in their one cafe in February.  They put them up for any Christians and liked them so much they kept them lol

There are lots of festivals I like, my favourite is Diwali.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by *THE Ben Reilly* on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:08 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I think you missed the point. If they're banning Christian hymns on the grounds that God doesn't exist, they should also ban any song which says that Father Christmas is real too.

I don't think the point is to teach students God doesn't exist, but to not teach students that one particular version of God does exist, and not to be seen as endorsing any religious perspective.

Well then they shouldn't encourage a belief in Santa then. He's different in the US - he wears the wrong clothes.

I don't think they're encouraging belief in Santa Smile Besides, this is going on in Australia.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Syl on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:09 pm

sassy wrote:
Syl wrote:What a 'bah humbug ' thread this has turned out to be.

Christmas by the very name is a Christian celebration...singing carols, father Christmas, decorations are all part of it.
Why should schools not enter into the spirit.
I should think anyone of a different faith would enjoy all the rituals without having to believe in the concept.

My hindu neighbours love all the joy of Christmas...we swap cards. pressies and their Christmas tree is always up before ours.

Yep, so do my Muslim friends.  In fact when I was in Tunisia, a littler village miles from anywhere had Christmas decorations in their one cafe in February.  They put them up for any Christians and liked them so much they kept them lol

There are lots of festivals I like, my favourite is Diwali.

Exactly, sharing in one anothers celebrations can do nothing but good.
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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:10 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well then they shouldn't encourage a belief in Santa then. He's different in the US - he wears the wrong clothes.

I don't think they're encouraging belief in Santa Smile Besides, this is going on in Australia.

Have they banned Santa talk in schools then?

The point is that there are various versions of Santa, so one should not be encouraged to think that one version is better than another.

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by *THE Ben Reilly* on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:14 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well then they shouldn't encourage a belief in Santa then. He's different in the US - he wears the wrong clothes.

I don't think they're encouraging belief in Santa Smile Besides, this is going on in Australia.

Have they banned Santa talk in schools then?

The point is that there are various versions of Santa, so one should not be encouraged to think that one version is better than another.

I don't see why they should ban Santa -- he's not a religious figure, after all. That would be like trying to ban the Easter bunny on religious grounds.

Who cares who thinks which version of Santa is better? ... never envisioned myself typing out *that* sentence Smile

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Re: students can make Christmas decorations and sing carols in class but hymns are forbidden.

Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:16 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Have they banned Santa talk in schools then?

The point is that there are various versions of Santa, so one should not be encouraged to think that one version is better than another.

I don't see why they should ban Santa -- he's not a religious figure, after all. That would be like trying to ban the Easter bunny on religious grounds.

Who cares who thinks which version of Santa is better? ... never envisioned myself typing out *that* sentence Smile

Try telling children that Santa is not a religious figure - most of them worship him.

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