If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

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If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by eddie on Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:12 pm

What solutions would you offer? What strategies would you choose?
What are your answers?

Genuine answers and stay on topic Rolling Eyes

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:09 pm

Done this on another thread eddie, happy to move and shorten answers if you like, but what is very much needed is for extremists groups and acts they commit to be disassociated from islam.

View the ISIS occupation of Iraq and Syria as a trangression of which they are oppressing Muslims and Non-Muslims. Thus deeming ISIS as the transgressors. calling for Muslims to join united with non-Muslim nations in defeating ISIS

Condemn all terrorist attacks, where at present many Muslims associate some terrorist murder of civillians as justified. It then clearly contradicts within the Muslim world where in some conflicts  by justifying these murders, the reasoning is comparable to the reasoning of ISIS to murder/
So no matter if Muslims wrongly view a nation as an oppressor, that still does not justify the deliberate targettng and murder of civillians..

Classify  and reason that where terrorists murder innocent civillians, then those who have commited this serious sin within Islam of murder, that they be classified as murders and cannot be classified as martyrs. Those dying committing murder and also wrongly murdering in the name of islam whish is both committing a major sin and blasphemy.

If Muslims join together to do these simple things which would completely seperate Islam from ISIS and other estremisy groups. As it would be fundementally reasoning based off islamic doctrine and views. Denying martydom status to terrorists then sows the seed of doubt of bheing allowed into a mythical heaven. You elevate human life where it is mostly deemed as inferior to a mythical islamic after life. They need to start doing what they have been doing against Israel for the last 67 years. deligitimize ISIS from Islam itself. Deligitimize any terrorist's that commit murders of civilians from being glorified and deemed as martyrs. The nartive that poorly claims a war on Islam is false and its time Muslims themselves classified this groups and apostates and blaspehmers.

Stop fabricating a false claim that the west is at war with Islam, as this is also fundemtally believed by ISIS

This would go a long way to rendering the abilities of ISIS to recruite and justify their views and association to islam, because there is a clear dissassociation with terrorism and Islam from the points i made
Until the Muslim world seperates its many similar views to extremist groups, then at present it will mean having to use military means to render and nulify the military, ideological capabilities of ISIS to function.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:37 pm

On phone so short. Firstly stop their money flow. They are selling oil, millions of gallons, shipping it and we let them. Track down their arms suppliers and stop them getting armaments. Interrupt their propaganda, the have a magazine, a web page and a twitter account fgs! That's just for starters.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:23 pm

apart from what Sassy suggests, which is a good start, we should prbably do absolutely nothing for while, except careful surveillance, whole of life sentences for any that get involved, and the refusal to allow those we know have gone there to fight re entry to the country.

so many are full of conspiracy shit, end of days predictions etc its unreal...

so I'll add my tuppence worth here

and dont forget I lived through the period of the cold war when we almost expected nuclear anhilation at any moment...

what happened...world leaders changed over a generation and realised it wasnt going anywhere...

so my predictions

EITHER


a new generation of ISIS leaders will eventually take over....and begin to realise they are getting F**k all where
so they pack up and go home/start to want to negotiate

OR the world eventually gets sufficiently pissed with them they put 300 MILLION pairs of boots on the ground and totally exterminate them

or in the face of dwindling demand for oil the middle eastern countries suddenly realise that if that troublesome bunch carry on very soon the world will ignore THEM as well, they then get pissed with ISIS and deal with them themselves in their own inimitable style

or finally, very possibly, climate change does us a favour and cooks em all....

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:44 am

Sorry Victor but its the followers and their indoctrinated mindset around martydom, that is enabling people to be misguided into where the truely believe it is the most glorious and ssurest way into their make belief heaven. We have conflicts, boots on the ground and have left and it has not made the slightest bit of difference and it never will until the mindset and aspects of islam are seperated from the extremist ideology.

I agree with agthering intelligence and have said before that individuals who are known to be funding terrorism, should have all their assessts frozen, hittinhg the individual with sanctions, until that individuals own governement acts against them.

Inactivity is about proably the worst position to take in light of the fact we are already involved and to do nothing is in effect making them believe that the west bows down to terrorism. We have to cripple and incapcigtate their ability to carry out terrorism. It will also be avery difficult conflict being as its in the middle of a civil war.

So am all for intelligence gathering, but on any few to do nothing as they will continue to attack the west because our way of life is in complete conflict with theirs. This is why it will be very much down to Muslims themselves to bring about the steady downfall of Isis by what I stated earlier. This is where the fundemental problems are and you see this with the conspiracy ethories, let alone how many Muslims but into a view the countries have been transgressed when we have gone there to help. All the naratives are based off a islam victim status, which enablle a growing steady hate of the west. To the point it is no small leap for Muslims who have this view point to be easily persuaded to join ISIS/


So it has been vastly Muslims themselves with their corrupted  narative which is derisive to the point it fuels and incites Muslims, when it should never need to. They hould have been directly challenging ISIS openly classifying them as apostates.So the best way to stop any revival of ISIS is for the Muslims to very much seperate Islamic doctrine which justifies the appaling acts ISIS commits and what they should have been doing all along, is to use islamic doctruine and tesxs to prove that ISIS are apostates, murderers etc.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Fuzzy Zack on Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:26 pm

eddie wrote:What solutions would you offer? What strategies would you choose?
What are your answers?

Genuine answers and stay on topic Rolling Eyes

Weed.

And yes, I'm totally serious.

2 reasons.

1. Real time experiments have shown weed calms down football hooligans.

2. Isis are getting high on a form of amphetamine, which increases their violence
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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:07 pm

sassy wrote:On phone so short. Firstly stop their money flow. They are selling oil, millions of gallons, shipping it and we let them.

How? We once tried to distinguish between oil sellers, in 1972, and got nothing for the effort. Copetas, Metal Men: How Marc Rich Defrauded the Country, Evaded the Law, and Became the World's Most Sought-After Corporate Criminal (2001).

sassy wrote:Track down their arms suppliers and stop them getting armaments. Interrupt their propaganda, the have a magazine, a web page and a twitter account fgs! That's just for starters.

I like that one. But as I understand it, the armaments are those given to the Iraqi Shi'ite leaders for their army, and somehow end up in the hands of ISIL.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:31 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
eddie wrote:What solutions would you offer? What strategies would you choose?
What are your answers?

Genuine answers and stay on topic Rolling Eyes

Weed.

And yes, I'm totally serious.

2 reasons.

1. Real time experiments have shown weed calms down football hooligans.

2. Isis are getting high on a form of amphetamine, which increases their violence  
your not wrong alien alien easily worth two greenies

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:34 pm

Lord Foul wrote:apart from what Sassy suggests, which is a good start, we should prbably do absolutely nothing for while, except careful surveillance, whole of life sentences for any that get involved, and the refusal to allow those we know have gone there to fight re entry to the country.

so many are full of conspiracy shit, end of days predictions etc its unreal...

so I'll add my tuppence worth here

and dont forget I lived through the period of the cold war when we almost expected nuclear anhilation at any moment...

what happened...world leaders changed over a generation and realised it wasnt going anywhere...

so my predictions

EITHER


a new generation of ISIS leaders will eventually take over....and begin to realise they are getting F**k all where
so they pack up and go home/start to want to negotiate

OR the world eventually gets sufficiently pissed with them they put 300 MILLION pairs of boots on the ground and totally exterminate them

or in the face of dwindling demand for oil the middle eastern countries suddenly realise that if that troublesome bunch carry on very soon the world will ignore THEM as well, they then get pissed with ISIS and deal with them themselves in their own inimitable style

or finally, very possibly, climate change does us a favour and cooks em all....
unfortunately it`s almost impossible to exterminate an idea or nazis would be a thing of the past ....but there are not

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:51 pm

perhaps you need to carry on exterminating....(and kindly note that there is a difference between national socialist and hitlerist (which most modern day nazis are...whether they like it or no) Deliberate mass murder has no place in national socialism.....(logically, since it would then loose the claim to the "socialism" part......)

but like I said, the likeliest is that climate change will do us a favour.....

but for that to happen we need to change our perception of what is to be done with "refugees" and "resources" and , most of all, the place in society of "religion"

perhaps it should become a hanging offence to even suggest the church/faith/whatever has ANY place in governance...(and yes...lets get the bishops out of the upper house.....)

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Ben Reilly on Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:35 pm

We need to kill them with kindness. The West should be building schools and hospitals across Muslim lands -- Western companies should expand into Muslim nations and employ their citizens. We should raise their quality of life and show we don't consider them enemies.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:06 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:We need to kill them with kindness. The West should be building schools and hospitals across Muslim lands -- Western companies should expand into Muslim nations and employ their citizens. We should raise their quality of life and show we don't consider them enemies.


Already happened where billions was pumped into Iraq for example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment_in_post-invasion_Iraq

Again the root problem comes from within Islam itself. Just like with all the abrahamic faiths that elevate the believers to a privilidged status over non-believers. These 3 religions when believed literally by the folowers of those faiths, view Non-believers of a lesser staus which allows for the normalisation of discriminating against them. Muslims will class fellow Muslims as brothers and sisters, Christians sometimes also state this, but it is in the main in the Middle east that you find a continued narative that views the west as Christian crusaders out to destroy Islam. Just as is no different of a view of fear that is promoted by the far right on islam. Of course both these naratives are nonsense, but the reality is, that many Muslims have bought into this. It is easy for them to do so because again the narative is formed from Islamic teachings. Until this view changes, then the problems are goinhg to continue to exist. What needs to happen is to fundementally challenge the hateful naratives in both parts of the world. The West combating far right ideology and Muslims to combat hateful views of the West.

So because of a continual propganda machine that constantly stokes up fear and distain for not only Western people but our very way of life. You are always going to have a very long upheal struggle. Again whether people viewed the invasion  of Iraq as wrong, it did free them from a tyrant and butcher. Sadly the west and the US in particular is seen as the Great Satan. So basically anything good done by the US is not viewed as a charity and kindness but seen as the corruption of the Great Satan.

This preaching distain and hate for the west has to first and foremost fundemnetally change if there is going to be any peace for the future Ben.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:44 pm

korban dallas wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:apart from what Sassy suggests, which is a good start, we should prbably do absolutely nothing for while, except careful surveillance, whole of life sentences for any that get involved, and the refusal to allow those we know have gone there to fight re entry to the country.

so many are full of conspiracy shit, end of days predictions etc its unreal...

so I'll add my tuppence worth here

and dont forget I lived through the period of the cold war when we almost expected nuclear anhilation at any moment...

what happened...world leaders changed over a generation and realised it wasnt going anywhere...

so my predictions

EITHER


a new generation of ISIS leaders will eventually take over....and begin to realise they are getting F**k all where
so they pack up and go home/start to want to negotiate

OR the world eventually gets sufficiently pissed with them they put 300 MILLION pairs of boots on the ground and totally exterminate them

or in the face of dwindling demand for oil the middle eastern countries suddenly realise that if that troublesome bunch carry on very soon the world will ignore THEM as well, they then get pissed with ISIS and deal with them themselves in their own inimitable style

or finally, very possibly, climate change does us a favour and cooks em all....
unfortunately it`s almost impossible to exterminate an idea or nazis would be a thing of the past ....but there are not


Exactly.  The public want a simplistic answer to a complex question.  'The Muslims must condemn them' they shout, while ignoring the fact, even stated by this government, that they have come forward in droves to do just that and that Muslims have been protesting, resisting, and fighting Isis with guns and grenades before the western media even knew the groups name.

I think The Canary today summed it up beautifully:

Attacks launched by Daesh (ISIS) around the world are horrific. And for peace to come to the Middle East, this group must be defeated. British prime minister David Cameron and his Labour opponent Jeremy Corbyn both agree about this. So why is the Labour leader facing the brunt of criticism?

Cameron remains committed to military intervention in Syria, suggesting he would push ahead with air strikes even if the British public objected – which it seems they do.

On the other hand, Corbyn has argued (as has The Canary) that a bombing campaign in Syria is neither a good idea nor the solution to the appalling political violence of Daesh and its supporters.

And the Labour leader’s “clear principles”, argues The Independent‘s Liam Young, are a breath of fresh air compared with Cameron’s simplistic warmongering. In fact, says Young, they make him:

the total opposite of Cameron’s hot air.

But why isn’t everyone so happy with Corbyn’s stance?

Attacks against Corbyn’s commitment to international law

Corbyn has insisted recently:

We can’t go on in a cycle of wars and destruction

and rather than forcing his opinions on other Labour MPs regarding Syria or allowing them to vote as they wish on potential air strikes, Corbyn has made it clear that Labour will “come to a position as a party” on the issue.

But not all Labour MPs are happy with that stance.

According to Ben Glaze at The Mirror, one shadow minister called the Labour leader a “f****** disgrace” on 16 November, for his commitment to the rule of law and opposition to extrajudicial executions. Corbyn has consistently insisted he would

only authorise actions that are legal under international law.

And a big part of this stance comes from having lived through the quagmire caused by the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

The Independent‘s Matthew Norman explains one of the reasons why some of Corbyn’s colleagues have not been very happy with his rhetoric in recent days. In his view, there is a need for politicians to exhibit “visceral revulsion” in the wake of terrorist attacks rather than having a calm and reasoned demeanour. In his opinion:

to get people to listen to intelligent things in times which demand ritual stupidity, a would-be national leader must first capture the mood of the nation…

In other words, Corbyn’s response has not been as “colourful” as some might have wanted.

Western governments silent about the Saudi mentors of Daesh

So why has Corbyn continued to insist on a comprehensive, measured strategy to defeat Daesh?

According to former MI6 agent Alastair Crooke, we cannot ignore the role of Wahhabism – the state ideology of Saudi Arabia – when talking about Daesh.

Corbyn, meanwhile, has stressed:

a crucial way to help defeat ISIL is to cut off its funding, its supply of arms, and its trade.

And he has made it clear that dealing with Saudi Arabia would a big part of this process:


Saudi Arabia, maybe not at Government level, but certainly at aid-level, has been providing support to Isil.

David Cameron, however, avoids talking about Saudi Arabia, consistently trying to create distractions from the issue and convince Britain that military escalation is a necessity – against expert advice.

The facts speak for themselves, though.

The Independent‘s Robert Fisk writes about how, according to the UN, Saudi air strikes in Yemen in recent months have killed 2,355 civilians. Meanwhile, he says, the Middle East is full of

dictators, kings and emirs – almost all of them the West’s allies – [who] regularly spy on their citizens… and torture their own people…

However, Western governments keep their mouths shut about the state terrorism carried out by Saudi leaders because of their reliance on the country’s oil resources. The French regime may now claim to be “at war” with Daesh, says Fisk, but the group’s “spiritual mentors” in Saudi Arabia “will be left untouched” because of France’s

lucrative arms deals with Saudi Arabia, where Hollande still hopes… to supplant the US as the kingdom’s main arms supplier.

Cameron and co. love to oversimplify

According to Matthew Norman:

politicians say stupid things knowing them to be stupid… [in order] to reflect the public craving for simplistic answers to probably unanswerable questions

And David Cameron is no exception, aggradising Daesh by comparing them to the Nazis and

conflating the menace of sporadic terrorism, however uniquely brutal, with an existential threat to British democracy.

Stating his “firm conviction” in favour of military intervention in Syria, Cameron has called the Daesh capital of Raqqa “the head of the snake”, suggesting that cutting this off would somehow immobilise an entire ideology which has followers around the world and is promoted globally by Western allies like Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

The prime minister has also spoken about how Daesh

operates across the border in Syria – a border that is meaningless to it.

No mention, though, of how NATO member Turkey has long kept the Syrian border open for Daesh and other Wahhabi extremists, whilst imposing an embargo on the secular, democratic regions of Rojava in northern Syria.

In other words, Western leaders like Cameron repeat simplistic arguments primarily because more detailed ones would incriminate them as collaborators in the rise of Daesh.

To solve a complex problem, we need an intelligent, balanced solution

Cameron and other cheerleaders for military escalation in Syria cannot escape from the truth. They tend to claim moral superiority (much like almost half of right-wingers in Britain do), but Canadian academics have stressed that “socially conservative right-wing ideologies” are usually most popular among “individuals with lower cognitive abilities”.

And according to award-winning psychological science journalist Wray Herbert:

Intelligence and thinking determine how people assess threats in the world. Those with lower ability – reasoning skills, processing speed, and so forth – prefer simple and predictable answers, because that is what they are capable of processing. Any uncertainty is threatening, and they respond to such threats by trying to preserve what is familiar and safe, the status quo.

In other words, the “simple and predictable answers” of David Cameron and the right-wing of the Labour party are pandering to the natural instincts of citizens who know very little about how Daesh has come into being and what the best ways are to defeat it.

This simplicity may indeed help people to “reduce anxiety” in complicated situations, but it is not a characteristic we should expect of those in government, and it is not an approach that will defeat Daesh.

Only reasoned arguments based on evidence and thorough investigation can give the world solutions to the complex problems we all face. And those who champion a simplistic and misleading discussion of issues must be challenged at every possible point. The future of the world depends on it.

http://www.thecanary.co/2015/11/19/criticism-corbyn-opposing-war-total-bullsht/

They are making literally millions a day from oil, that has to go by ship, and don't tell me they can't see those ships on satellite, because I don't believe it.

Jeremy Corbyn posed a series of rhetorical questions when asked whether bombing Isis following the Paris terror attacks would make a significant difference to the situation.



In an interview with Lorraine Kelly on ITV, the Labour leader answered "probaby not", adding: "Who is funding Isis? Who is arming Turkey? Who is providing safe havens for ISIS. You have to ask questions about the arms everyone has sold in the region."



The Paris attackers were armed with AK-47s and identical suicide vests, while police seized a rocket launcher and a huge cache of weapons in terrorists raids in Lyon following the attack. Some are said to have been trained in Syria.

So where does Isis get its money, guns and bombs, both in Europe and in the Middle East?



Who is funding Isis?


To a large extent Isis is now funding itself – through oil sales, kidnap ransoms, smuggling, extortion, taxes, looting, bank robberies.



When it was starting out, Isis was ‘seed funded’ by wealthy donors –individuals and charities from across the Middle East, especially Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait.



At first, the governments of the Persian kingdoms openly gave money to the opponents of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, including Isis. This has since become politically and diplomatically incorrect – but large amounts of money still finds its way to Isis from wealthy individuals from the Persian gulf.


Where does Isis get its guns and ammunition?


Following the Charlie Hebdo attacks in January, arms experts said that the ammunition used was almost certainly smuggled in from the Balkans, which was left awash with arms following the 1991-1995 war in the former Yugoslavia.

The suburb of Molenbeek, in Brussels – home to some of the suspected attackers last Friday - has been identified as a “breeding ground” for terrorism in western Europe. An automatic firearm can allegedly be bought in the area for 500-1,000 euros.





As for the Middle East, a study by the Conflict Armament Research Group, published last year, showed the militant group used ammunition manufactured mostly in America, China and Russia.



Isis took possession of large amounts of kit - including tanks, rocket launchers and howitzers – when it seized Government-held territory in Iraq in 2014. It is known to have smuggled in arms from places such Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria and Eastern Europe.



How much does it earn from oil?


Isis-controlled territory produces up to 60,000 barrels per day, netting the caliphate an estimated £1m every 24 hours, according to an estimate by IHS, an energy research consultancy.



Who is buying the oil – isn’t Isis-controlled territory saddled by international sanctions?


Middlemen smuggle crude oil and refined oil products from Isis-controlled parts of Syria and Iraq to Turkey and Iran. The Syrian Government also reportedly buys some of these products.

Because of sanctions, the caliphate, home to an estimated eight million people, also operates rather like a vast organised crime gang – dealing in cash and contraband products outside legitimate banking channels.



How much does it make from its wealthy donors?


It has raised around $40 million from such channels in the past two years, according to an estimate published in Newsweek.


How much does Isis make from ransom payments for hostages?


It generated at least $20m (£12.7m) in ransom payments in 2014, according to the US Treasury.



What sort of taxes are levied in the caliphate?


Religious minorities, such as Christians, are forced to pay a special tax, convert to Islam, or leave.



What is the Caliphate’s annual income?


It is reckoned to raise $2bn per year from the sale of oil, tolls and taxes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/paris-attacks-where-does-isis-get-its-money-and-arms-a6736716.html

What they are trying to do, is to prove to Muslims that they cannot live with the rest of the world.  But we can stop that.  For a start, stop calling them Islamic State.  Call them what they are, drug fueled thugs with blood lust.  Call them the Blood Gang, demeam them in that way, undermine their identity, show them that we do not equate them with Muslims.

They are a crime gang that has esculated because they were funded and armed.  They are not a state, they are wandering terrorists.  Bombing will simply kill the civilians who are forced to live around them and they will move on.  Cut off their supplies, cut off everything they gives them a chance to carry out their murdering and to do that you have to ask some very deep questions and get answers that both Saudia and the West don't want to answer.  Until that is done, you stand no chance.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:15 pm

I see we are back to spam city.
Its not just about condemning all attcks of which they certainly do not condemn all and again dependent on the conflict will even attempt to justify murder through terrorism deligitimising civillians as human beings. It has to be a central voice that is stands out more as an instrument of peace.

To sperate a belief system, from eveil acts carried out by people who claim to commit acts in the name of that religion, needs those of religious standing and leadership to properly act with a unified policy. Its no good making continued apologist arguments as that poor argument did abvove. It is fundementally bowing down to terrorist acts and allowing ISIS to further garner support. This is why such views which seek to speak for the best ways of finding peace, fail to fundementally understand that the concept of peace does not exist in the mindset and ideology of ISIS

It does not matter if troops moved away, as they have done so before and we stopped bombing ISIS, they would still seek to further struike terror into the heart of the west because the west stands against everything they believe in. Both war and inaction have failed to make any significance change tot he rise of extremism. That is because again there is many Non Extremist Muslins who share the same fear based naratives in regards to the west. A fabricated belief that the west is at war with Islam. Untill you combat these derisive indoctrainated propaganda naratives, just as we have to do with the far right naratives in the west. Then the problem of extremism will continue to grow, because it is the mindset of people that requires changing, in order for then both Muslims and Non-Muslims to then be able to see each other as allies in the fight against ISIS. By seperating Islam from islamic terrorism by classifying the terrorists as apostates and blasphemers by the religious leaders. That they also state where a murderer dies committing this sin, that such sinners face retribution from their mythical deity and cannot be classed as martyrs. And as stated before no matter the conflict or views held, any terrorist acts committed and justified in the name of Islam should all be vocally and constantly condemned.

Its also no good fearing if some more Muslims might turn to terrorism also based off joining a world cooalition that is seeking to take on ISIS. Again it is the failure to understand the moral equivalence, which allows for some of the left to condemn countless people enslaved under ISIS to further suffering, where many nations can do something about this. Placing their needs of which is the basic human right all humans suffering as slaves want. Freedom. Is morally and ethically first and foremost what is needed to be done

As ISIS can not be negotiated with and again it is a fear some may join them, well they would only join because agaiin at present there is little seperate from the extremist ideology and nartaive that ISIS uses. By deligitimising their status to even being Muslims and any poor claims of the west being evil would prevent many Muslims in the first place from being corrupted to become extremists. Not only that  the needs of those in slavery being raped, suffering the worst foprms of child abuse by ISIS stand morally far exceeds any fear of some more Muslims turning to terrorism. Where even then as stated that would not do so, if because of a constant propganda narative that views the west as evil.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:27 pm

I've been reading your spamming on my phone over the last week, and the posts they were supposedly in english and your words, that made no sense at all.

You drone on and on about what 'the Muslims' have to do, totally ignoring all the evidence put in front of you about how they have all come out and condemned, how they make up 99% of the victims of the Blood Group, and 99% of the victims of the bombing.  You just want to prove that you gobbing off with simplistic answers will change anything.  It won't, it's highly complicated and needs cold, reasoned logic, not racist inference that it's all the fault of the Muslims.  Frankly, I can't tell you and Smelly apart anymore, except maybe Smelly has a little more sense.

Your attacks against religion remind me of a small boy who has discovered Father Christmas doesn't exist and is determined that nobody else is going to enjoy believing in him out of spite.

You simply don't have the intellectual ability to get your head round the many reasons the Blood Group have got this big and the plan required, taking so many things into consideration, that will be needed to take them down, which most of all would need honesty from governments about what they have been doing that has allowed the Blood Group to wreck so much havoc.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:56 pm

So sassy did not address a single point I made.
Continues to condemn those enslaved by ISIS to further oppression.
Fails to see the root cause that is fundemnetal to both the far right narative and the islamic extremist narative.
The majority of the reply talked mainly about me with again poorly using the standard left wing tactic of debating. To deligitimise the person in the vain desperate belief this will some how deflect the sound reasons made. With also a view to deny the reasons themselves.

Any belief system that denies equaliy should have any proponet of equality be highly critical of beleifs that discrminate against groups of people. Like any belief, whether it be Zazism, racism, anti-homosexual, all views argue and justify discfrmination.
They should always be attacked such pooir beliefs for how they allow for the justification to normalise discrmination.
By ignoring beliefs that effect the equality of people, basically endorses discrmination through inaction.

So being as you could not counter my points and talked mainly about me, made the poorest arguments to defend bad beliefs, lthat you have basically clarifed you cannot counter them with such poor deflections.

Oh well/

Let me know if you change your mind

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:00 pm

You didn't make a point, you just rambled on about what Muslims need to do.  You have said the same thing so many times you must bore yourself.  If you don't, you must be easily pleased.  And you certainly don't get anywhere near talking about the real reasons and the complications of how many things need to be done to get within solving distance of a vile problem, that has been created by those in authority for their own ends, and who need to be brought to book.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:11 pm

So more about me, deflecting from debating the points.

Again unless you want to address my reasoning, your last two replies are nothing more than disrupting a very interesting thread.
As seen many of the reasons that allows a Muslim to be swayed by extremist groups, is because many already hold a belief of the west being out to destroy islam. If many Muslims did not believe that, they would not then turn to extremism. As if a Muslim believed the west was intervening to help stop a barbaric group that stains and insults the belief of Islam. Where also fundemnetally believe the needs of those enslaved suffering the worst oppression under ISIS, requires a coalition of nations to be invited to heelp and defeat ISIS. Are going to be extremely unlikely to then be persuaded to join ISIS

Has this point suink in yet?

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:18 pm

No Didge, you are doing the deflecting, rambling on about Muslims.  I'm trying to get people to debate the actual ways of stopping ISIS, the ways different governments helped them to come into being, the way they are making their money to fund their terror, how they are getting their armaments, their ways of communication and propaganda and how that can be stopped and their oil sales.  That's a discussion, not a load of racist cant as above.   Now, if you want to get your brain into gear for that, be my guest, but don't try to pretend that you using the subject to have another rant is a discussion - it's not.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:29 pm

actually, you are both right to an extent, and both sides of this need to be dealt with, simply doing one or the other wont work.

however ...in the mean while...something is going to have to be done. becasue I reckon an attack like in paris happening here would be a catastrophe beyond the immediate effects...


across the country we could all, as individuals have a distinct effect on "our leaders" quite simply

and get this.....


if you DONT ALREADY...live in a city..then DONT GO TO ONE, deny the cities of their trade, shop local...

I mean give me ONE reason I would go to manchester shopping??

or for anything else come to that?

doing so and making plain the reason is that you know the govt cant protect you (as is their duty) from an attack such as paris) would lend an important stimulus to their efforts to sort it. Especially when the business leaders realise "whats up"

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:29 pm

So yet more deflections from Sassy, more excuses, more continually attempting to deflect discussing the points at hand. By making continued views about me. The very fact you fail to grasp that by dissassociating Islam and seperating it from ISIS, Will fundementally deny this and other extremist groups the ability to recruit other Muslims. This also then denies the far right the ability to argue and fear off the belief system of Islam, as each are denied of the same root source to back their reasoning.


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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:32 pm

Oh dear, well as you obviously can't manage a grown up discussion, I'll leave you to ramble on, repeating the same thing over and over, never getting anywhere near the core of the problem.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:35 pm

Well sassy all can see it has been you that is not even attempting to have a discussing by continually talking about me and not the topic itself. All can see that is a very poor deflection


On that note I wish you a very good evening.

Night everyone

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:39 pm

Didge ..... Muslim, Muslims Muslims Muslims

Me ...... How they got started, how they are funded, their making millions selling oil and how we need to stop it, their propaganda machine and use of the internet, their own magazine and twitter account, the people who have been selling them arms etc etc etc etc.

Oh I think people can see very well who is discussing it.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:40 pm

And BTW, don't forget to set your alarm so you can come back in the middle of the night and post without being challenged lol

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:43 pm

Lord Foul wrote:actually, you are both right to an extent, and both sides of this need to be dealt with, simply doing one or the other wont work.

however ...in the mean while...something is going to have to be done. becasue I reckon an attack like in paris happening here would be a catastrophe beyond the immediate effects...


across the country we could all, as individuals have a distinct effect on "our leaders" quite simply

and get this.....


if you DONT ALREADY...live in a city..then DONT GO TO ONE, deny the cities of their trade, shop local...

I mean give me ONE reason I would go to manchester shopping??

or for anything else come to that?

doing so and making plain the reason is that you know the govt cant protect you (as is their duty) from an attack such as paris) would lend an important stimulus to their efforts to sort it. Especially when the business leaders realise "whats up"

Well, I lived through a bombing campaign by Indonesia against Singapore and quite a lot of bombs went off in all kinds of places, had three planted in the sea wall next to the flats I lived in, thankfully they didn't go off because the police failed to find them until after the detonation time.  I also had to step over bodies to go to work a couple of mornings.  Did it stop me or anyone else doing anything?   Did it hell, wouldn't give them the satisfaction.  Don't be a wimp!

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:47 pm

then you are part of the problem....

nothing to do with wimp

all to do with economic pressure...


thought you were smarter than that.....


if the cities economies are put in peril, with the reasons explained.....

then the govt might actually do something.....it might even be sensible... Suspect

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:54 pm

So yet again more immature points about me, that are poor deflections, seeking to deliberately disrupt the thread.
I think you need to go back further than a few decades to understand the root cause to extremist Islam. About 300 years and the birth of Wahhabism. So your suggestion sassy is not something that will combat extremist ideology, but provide temp means which actually will do very little. That is not how you resolve a problem of which if they are defeated start over using again Islam to promote their cause. As many things are spread by word of mouth.

So do you think the way to combat racism is though censurship Sassy? Denial of free speech, the very thing that is fundemnetally grounded in Western beliefs and ideals is freedom of speech. That would jiust further show a defeatest stance to ISIS, as there are countless ways around such bloacking methods. You should target also the source of revenue and arms, which is fundemnetal in dealing with the present extremist group. Long term again unless the narative changes, more extremist groups will be born and form.

That is what you fail to grasp, your views to combating ISIS have very limited effect, do nothing to free those enslaved under ISIS and allows for the continuation of ISIS to deaw on Islam to justify their extremism.


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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:56 pm

You have my post wrong Victor, of course the economy of cities would become a problem, but only if we let it happen.   Which is why, instead of rambling on about it being all the Muslim's fault, when they are the majority fighting them on the ground and being killed by them, we need to do something about how the Blood Group operates and hit is in ways that get to the heart of it's functions, not bomb them, which doesn't stop them and kills more civilians than anyone else.  And in the meantime, we have to get on with our lives and stop thinking that 350,00 rule the world.  They don't, that's what they want you to believe and that is what their tactics are designed to do.  I won't give them the satisfaction of ruling my life, didn't let terrorists win in the 60s and I'm not about to start this late in my life.  My daughter and grandson went to London to watch Murray play on Monday, they didn't think twice.  'Let those scummy bastards decide what I do, not a chance' she said, and I cheered.  Life's for living, not for sheltering in corners because of shit like them.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:00 pm

doh...

THATS THE POINT......


MAKE the economies of the cities a problem and make sure you say why

THEN perhaps the govt will do something..


jesus its not that difficult...

as to you and didge scrapping again

you are BOTH to an extent right...BOTH approaches are needed, neither on on its own will work

AND....perhaps its just me....but after whats happened in Paris ....i want a body count (the right bodies mind you, not random ones) ok so I'm a primitive....so what...

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by veya_victaous on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:03 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
eddie wrote:What solutions would you offer? What strategies would you choose?
What are your answers?

Genuine answers and stay on topic Rolling Eyes

Weed.

And yes, I'm totally serious.

2 reasons.

1. Real time experiments have shown weed calms down football hooligans.

2. Isis are getting high on a form of amphetamine, which increases their violence  

that is actually probably right, meth would explain a lot scratch

Meth (we cal it Ice) is epidemic down here at the moment and the junkies on it are violent and will do anything for their next hit.
if ISIS are taking the disaffected and making them Ice Junkies that explains the insane level of violence.  Neutral

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:03 pm

Lord Foul wrote:doh...

THATS THE POINT......


MAKE the economies of the cities a problem and make sure you say why

THEN perhaps the govt will do something..


jesus its not that difficult...

as to you and didge scrapping again

you are BOTH to an extent right...BOTH approaches are needed, neither on on its own will work

AND....perhaps its just me....but after whats happened in Paris ....i want a body count (the right bodies mind you, not random ones)  ok so I'm a primitive....so what...


Nope, I'm right, he's irrelevant.  How will the economies in the city make the goverment do anything.  They know we are likely to have terrorist attacks, but they still plan to cut the police and army.   They want to bomb because they are both unable to think any deeper and because they think it might gain them votes.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:04 pm

More apologist view points.
Many Muslims are completely blameless, but some and fundemnetally drive a hate narative against the west, which allows for a number of Musliums to also then believe, which makes it then thbat much easier to turn some to extremism. This is why by cutting the source from the head so to speak, you deny from the very start any association to using Islam. .

Again what is fundemnetally being missed is that people are suffering as slaves under ISIS. I thinkl their needs clearly supersede any argument you are making Sassy. So Muslims need to play their part as just as many of us Non-Muslims play are part in combating this issue, which together can be done. My points will also fundemnetally help many Muslims as if Islam is disasociated to ISIS, the far right have nothing to back up their hate against Muslims.
Right have to go

Cheers everyone


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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:05 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Weed.

And yes, I'm totally serious.

2 reasons.

1. Real time experiments have shown weed calms down football hooligans.

2. Isis are getting high on a form of amphetamine, which increases their violence  

that is actually probably right, meth would explain a lot scratch

Meth (we cal it Ice) is epidemic down here at the moment and the junkies on it are violent and will do anything for their next hit.
if ISIS are taking the disaffected and making them Ice Junkies that explains the insane level of violence.  Neutral


A little pill called Captagon turns Jihadists into superhuman soldiers. They don’t feel pain, they don’t fear death and they don’t get tired. They become killing machines. Bonus… it makes them murderously psychotic and causes brain damage after prolonged use. It’s cheap, easy to produce and highly addictive. The Syrians take it as do the rebels. And from what I hear, ISIS loves the stuff. They laugh when they are beaten, they are high when they rape, they are jazzed when they behead infidels. During the raid in Paris, French police said they found needles used by the attackers to inject themselves with Captagon. The drug may have helped them remain calm as they carried out their brutal attacks, which included slicing the bellies open of their victims while they were still alive.

More about it here:

http://rightwingnews.com/military/killer-high-the-drug-that-turns-isis-terrorists-into-superhuman-soldiers/

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:07 pm

sassy wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:doh...

THATS THE POINT......


MAKE the economies of the cities a problem and make sure you say why

THEN perhaps the govt will do something..


jesus its not that difficult...

as to you and didge scrapping again

you are BOTH to an extent right...BOTH approaches are needed, neither on on its own will work

AND....perhaps its just me....but after whats happened in Paris ....i want a body count (the right bodies mind you, not random ones)  ok so I'm a primitive....so what...


Nope, I'm right, he's irrelevant.  How will the economies in the city make the goverment do anything.  They know we are likely to have terrorist attacks, but they still plan to cut the police and army.   They want to bomb because they are both unable to think any deeper and because they think it might gain them votes.

Becasue the business leaders (who are after all their sponsors) will get pissed with the govt....and demand they do something .... Rolling Eyes


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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:09 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
sassy wrote:


Nope, I'm right, he's irrelevant.  How will the economies in the city make the goverment do anything.  They know we are likely to have terrorist attacks, but they still plan to cut the police and army.   They want to bomb because they are both unable to think any deeper and because they think it might gain them votes.

Becasue the business leaders (who are after all their sponsors) will get pissed with the govt....and demand they do something .... Rolling Eyes


But that will take quite a long time, and trade can be done without going into London etc, and meanwhile every day we allow their oil trade they make more millions and buy more arms.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:14 pm

and you think stopping their oil trade will be quick and easy?

Nah....

of course we could take a quick sensible step in that direction....and bomb to utter destruction the oil indusry in the affected areas.....hell since its impossible to move it we could even give fair warning of intent...to minimalise casualties...

a few bunker busters in the right place would render most installations unuseable for the forseeable future, possibly permanently


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Difficile est meminisse officium paludes siccare , cum de nocte surrexeritis et asinus tuus alligators ....(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:16 pm

Who said it would be easy, but the oil has to be pumped, it has to go in tankers, it has to be shipped.  If they can use drones to (supposedly) pinpoint a particular terrorist leader, don't tell me they can't find bloody great tankers or ships carrying oil.

Target them, not the actual sites of the oil, because they will be needed to fund the recovery when some sort of normality ensues, however far in the future that is.


Last edited by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:17 pm

Vote UKIP!!!



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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:18 pm

Oh do fuck off Tommy, if you haven't got anything of intelligence to say.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:19 pm

so target the infrastructure that pumps it, the terminals etc...

sink the ships ......but wait...that would be ...piracy...wouldnt it?


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If at any time in 2016 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up buttercup, cause 2017 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


Difficile est meminisse officium paludes siccare , cum de nocte surrexeritis et asinus tuus alligators ....(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:20 pm

Might pick this up in a bit Vic, going to make OH his packed lunch, he was fending for himself all last week and I doubt he ate properly.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:20 pm

Lord Foul wrote:so target the infrastructure that pumps it, the terminals etc...

sink the ships ......but wait...that would be ...piracy...wouldnt it?


No, UN have said any means necessary.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:24 pm

and of course sassy...once again a chance for your glorious leader to REALLY make a difference....but he wont

a one for one free exchange for any petrol/deisle vehicle with an electric one of similar capacity...

then we can get free of arabic oil...

start mining the continental shelf for methane hydrate (which is eco freindly as it takes only 50 years for its replacement and the co2 in it to be recombined as new methane hydrate)


and remove the restrictions on personal development of solar power systems....(in other words , at least partially repeal "part P")

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If at any time in 2016 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up buttercup, cause 2017 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


Difficile est meminisse officium paludes siccare , cum de nocte surrexeritis et asinus tuus alligators ....(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:36 pm

Sassy... you blame everything on Tory, others rightly blame most of problems on labour...


UKIP aren't to blame for anything...


Vote UKIP!!!



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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Fuzzy Zack on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:50 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Weed.

And yes, I'm totally serious.

2 reasons.

1. Real time experiments have shown weed calms down football hooligans.

2. Isis are getting high on a form of amphetamine, which increases their violence  

that is actually probably right, meth would explain a lot scratch

Meth (we cal it Ice) is epidemic down here at the moment and the junkies on it are violent and will do anything for their next hit.
if ISIS are taking the disaffected and making them Ice Junkies that explains the insane level of violence.  Neutral


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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:51 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

that is actually probably right, meth would explain a lot scratch

Meth (we cal it Ice) is epidemic down here at the moment and the junkies on it are violent and will do anything for their next hit.
if ISIS are taking the disaffected and making them Ice Junkies that explains the insane level of violence.  Neutral


Fenethylline

Produced in Saudi Arabia.


Says a lot.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:54 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Sassy... you blame everything on Tory, others rightly blame most of problems on labour...


UKIP aren't to blame for anything...


Vote UKIP!!!



This is probably the most complicated problem of the century, it needs brains and strategy and deep thinking and an ability not to be swayed by public opinion.  So that rules UK right out.

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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by Lord Foul on Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:00 am

sassy wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Sassy... you blame everything on Tory, others rightly blame most of problems on labour...


UKIP aren't to blame for anything...


Vote UKIP!!!



This is probably the most complicated problem of the century, it needs brains and strategy and deep thinking and an ability not to be swayed by public opinion.  So that rules UK right out.

In that I think you are seriously wrong...labour tried that with mass immigration, leading to the rise of the ukip

public opinion MUST be taken into account...or there will be trouble...even more so if something goes wrong with a paticular strategy

you forget in your leftist power grab....THEY (the govt) are there to serve US...NOT the otherway round....



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If at any time in 2016 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up buttercup, cause 2017 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


Difficile est meminisse officium paludes siccare , cum de nocte surrexeritis et asinus tuus alligators ....(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

Post by sassy on Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:06 am

No, this needs leadership, and stategy, not someone thinking bomb the buggers and the public will love us.  It needs everyone involved in the area to be on side.  At the moment the US gives Turkey bombs, Turkey bombs the Kurds, the Kurds are fighting IS etc etc.

And sod power Victor, this could be a vote loser, but it's more important than damn votes, it could define the world for a long time to come.


Last edited by sassy on Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total

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