Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

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Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:46 pm

Christian salvation is an eclectic mix of cutting and pasting New Testament verses together to make an ancient dogma sound logical.  Accordingly, without human ingenuity, even Jesus himself cannot explain how one is to obtain salvation.  Ironically, the ramblings of Jesus about the Kingdom in the Coptic Gospel of Thomas are on par with those of the Synoptic Gospels or John. Even the early letters of Paul offer only meditations of mediation as to how Israel’s God could have changed His mind.  For Protestants evangelicals, the only hope is to distill some theory of soteriology (the doctrine of salvation) as primary gleamed from his final letter to the Church at Rome, but only then such can be done by cutting and pasting verses of the text as assembled into a cherry picked Roman’s Road of Salvation. (Here at least, the Catholics and Orthodox seem somewhat more credible by having members place their faith for salvation in the traditions of their church . . . hey, trust us; we’ll get you to Heaven!). 

If faith in Jesus Christ alone granted salvation, then all Christian sects would be “saved” (be they Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses or whatever) since the term heresy could (would) not exist.  Then too, ironically both Satan and the demons would be saved in that they too believe in Jesus just as much as Jesus believes in them (Let’s face it, Origen was on to something here)!  Maybe, this is why both the saved and the damned will be given glorified bodies since all resurrected bodies living forever will have to be Glorified for this theology to work.
In the following example, I have redefined the limit of Jesus' authority by simply considering a single short verse from the Gospel of Luke. 

A Question of Christology


During the Crucifixion, why does Jesus ask God the Father to forgive the sins of people crucifying him (Text A), when earlier facts clearly showed that during Jesus’ ministry, he forgave sins himself (Text B)?


Text A:  “And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them (ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς ἔλεγεν Πάτερ, ἄφες αὐτοῖς), for they know not what they do.'” (Luke 23: 34)


Text B:  “But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth (ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἀφιέναι ἁμαρτίας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς) to forgive sins  - he said to the paralytic- 'I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.'” (Synoptic: Mark 2: 10 - 11 = Matt. 9: 6 – 7 & Luke 5: 24 - 25)

Commentary:   The reason Jesus had to ask God the Father to forgive the people crucifying him was that, by being raise up on the cross, his feet were no longer touching or "upon the earth" (“ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς”), thus Jesus was forced to ask God to forgive them since he could no longer physically do it himself. (If any apologist considers this theological position to be superficial or skewed, then consider the comment of Bruce Metzger over the early textual impact as to whether or not to include this theological problematic verse: 






B.M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd ed. (Stuttgart, 1994) p. 154)

Conclusion: 
Salvation theology (Soteriology) is simply a human created system in an attempt to make sense out of the often aimless and incoherent ramblings of the New Testament. The fact that I too (as an atheist) can create a new point of Christology out of the same often aimless and incoherent ramblings of the Gospels carries as much weight as any theologian (usually from the time of the Reformation) formulating a system of salvation from something Jesus never said, nor St. Paul ever coherently stated.  Indeed, within this context, credibility comes up short.
If the Doctrine of Original Sin is thrown in, then the entire Plan of Salvation is nothing more than fallen and sinful humanity (St. Paul included here too) simply inventing a hermeneutical system to save itself while crediting some Biblical divinity with its own false sense of reality.
Thus, the complete system of Christian salvation is nothing more than cognitive dissonance.


http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.ch/2015/09/hermeneutical-fun-with-bible-salvation.html#more

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:54 pm

lol where did they get the answer from....


loving it...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:57 pm

lol did you really just asked where?
ha ha ha ha

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:00 pm

Cuchulain wrote:lol did you really just asked where?
ha ha ha ha

yeah i did??

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:02 pm

ha ha ha ha ha

Oh my, priceless

Tell me you actually understand what is being stated? lol

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:04 pm

Cuchulain wrote:ha ha ha ha ha

Oh my, priceless

Tell me you actually understand what is being stated? lol

yep.... and...................

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:05 pm

Then why are you asking?

Oh my ha ha ha ha

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:07 pm

Cuchulain wrote:Then why are you asking?

Oh my ha ha ha ha

i'm asking where an earth their ideas and conclusions came from.... was this posted from some pre school paper...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:10 pm

Hang on I will just get my crystal ball out lol
Its a brilliant concept which you have yet to refute
Not doing a good job are you and you do a great job of deflecting

Laughing

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:12 pm

Cuchulain wrote:Hang on I will just get my crystal ball out lol
Its a brilliant concept which you have yet to refute
Not doing a good job are you and you do a great job of deflecting

Laughing

well the reasoning is so flawed it's ridiculous..... it must have come from a pre school scribbling...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:14 pm

So because you say so makes it flawed lol

Behave, its that good you cannot

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:23 pm

Cuchulain wrote:So because you say so makes it flawed lol

Behave, its that good you cannot

come on it is stupid...

John 3:16 explains what we must do to be saved... we must believe upon him who was sent for us which is Jesus.... as their saviour..

this rubbish that oh everyone who believes in Jesus must be saved including mormons, jw's no as they don't even see Jesus as the son of God..

oh the demons must be saved as they believe, know they know who Jesus is they do not believe he is their saviour..lol

Jesus was made to become the intercessor between man and God the only way to the father is through the son, forgive them father they know not what they have done, is a prayer of intercession for mercy on the men...

all really basic sunday school stuff at best...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:26 pm

So John is now the authority is he and that is the bases for your rebuttal?

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

All you can say is its rubbish without proving so.

Score...Laughing

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:41 pm

Cuchulain wrote:So John is now the authority is he and that is the bases for your rebuttal?

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

All you can say is its rubbiosh without proving so

John 3:16 is in fact the gospel in a nutshel..

it is because of God's love for us that he made a plan for our salvation...

the plan is worked between God and his son,... the plan is perfect as it involves what is in essence two parts of the Godhead, so it cannot fail...

the only part man has to play is to believe in Jesus as their saviour...

that's why I love John 3:16 one of my favourite scriptures...

It of course rings true with saved by Grace, as it is all God's work..

it rings true with scripture that by one man's sin, adam that sin entered the world and by one mans sacrifice Jesus sin will be paid for .. making a way for all to be without sin before God and have the righteousness of Jesus, who is perfect....

It shows with scripture that the old idea of yearly sacrifice would be done away with as the perfect once and for all sacrifice had come...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:45 pm

Again how is John the authority over the rest on salvation?

This is why born agains are so much fun to play with when they badly rely on John when there is 54 verses at least on the matter?

The rest you just interpretted to your own view not actuallly what is stated in the context of the verses.

You had to go and email your pastor on this did you not?

Ask him how he places John over the Over works on Salavation?

So you have not yet rebukked anything from the concept.

This is great

lol

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:53 pm

Cuchulain wrote:So because you say so makes it flawed lol

Behave, its that good you cannot

Razz that's rich coming from you as you always claim that everything you post is the absolute and only truth Razz

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:55 pm

Vicar Of Dibley wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:So because you say so makes it flawed lol

Behave, its that good you cannot

Razz that's rich coming from you as you always claim that everything you post is the absolute and only truth Razz

Wrong again ha ha ha

Nice deflection again Dibs

Laughing

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:00 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Vicar Of Dibley wrote:

Razz that's rich coming from you as you always claim that everything you post is the absolute and only truth Razz

Wrong again ha ha ha

Nice deflection again Dibs

Laughing

I'm not deflecting anything i haven't read your article and don't intend to . I just thought it was really hypocritical what you said to HF

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:02 pm

Vicar Of Dibley wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Wrong again ha ha ha

Nice deflection again Dibs

Laughing

I'm not deflecting anything i haven't read your article and don't intend to . I just thought it was really hypocritical what you said to HF

So you do not want to debate the article and only came on here to moan and deflect then lol

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:05 pm

Cuchulain wrote:Again how is John the authority over the rest on salvation?

This is why born agains are so much fun to play with when they badly rely on John when there is 54 verses at least on the matter?

The rest you just interpretted to your own view not actuallly what is stated in the context of the verses.

You had to go and email your pastor on this did you not?

Ask him how he places John over the Over works on Salavation?

So you have not yet rebukked anything from the concept.

This is great

lol

you can read can't you I said John 3:16 is the whole salvation plan in a nutshell and ties in so well with other scripture....

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:06 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Vicar Of Dibley wrote:

I'm not deflecting anything i haven't read your article and don't intend to . I just thought it was really hypocritical what you said to HF

So you do not want to debate the article and only came on here to moan and deflect then lol

i've just told you the article is a joke, must have been written by a three year old..

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:07 pm

heavenlyfatheryetagain wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

So you do not want to debate the article and only came on here to moan and deflect then lol

i've just told you the article is a joke, must have been written by a three year old..


You claim it is a joke,  based on no sound reasoning ha ha ha ha

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:10 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
heavenlyfatheryetagain wrote:

i've just told you the article is a joke, must have been written by a three year old..


You claim it is based on no sound reasoning ha ha ha ha

of course it is lol but you wouldn't know sound reasoning if it slapped you in the face...

John 3:16, saved by God's Grace, it all ties in....Jesus being the perfect sacrifice, how he became the intercessor for man...

why mormons, jw's and the demons are not saved...

it was all easily explained....

can't believe it would make anyone who knew anything of the bible break in to a sweat...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:16 pm

Here we go again back to John as your only authority on salavation when there is over 50 verses on salavation and yet you make no reasoning onto his over the others.


Ha ha ha


This is why born agains are so easily wound up, love it.

I mean its simple in other verses:

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:31

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Acts 2:21

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.
Luke 19:10

Backs up the concept very well and I do not even use one sourece unlike HF


Hee hee

So you have done nothing to refute this concept, unless you are claiming other parts of the bible are wrong?

Whoops

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:19 pm

coochy coo . We're saved you're not deal with it cheers

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:20 pm

Vicar Of Dibley wrote:coochy coo . We're saved you're not deal with it cheers

lol...love it....

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:21 pm

lol saved from yourselves?

Doubtful ha ha ha ha

Oh this has been exceelent

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:24 pm

Cuchulain wrote:Here we go again back to John as your only authority on salavation when there is over 50 verses on salavation and yet you make no reasoning onto his over the others.


Ha ha ha


This is why born agains are so easily wound up, love it.

I mean its simple in other verses:

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:31

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Acts 2:21

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.
Luke 19:10

Backs up the concept very well and I do not even use one sourece unlike HF


Hee hee

So you have done nothing to refute this concept, unless you are claiming other parts of the bible are wrong?

Whoops

thank you for those wonderful scriptures all of which prove salvation is of the Lord...Jesus is the only way...lol

why does it say Jesus will say of some I did not know you, if all just have to call his name, you have to know who he is and why..lol

this is all such basic understanding...i can see why it is beyond you didge...

you are typical of people who can quote the bible but have no understanding...lol

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:28 pm

heavenlyfatheryetagain wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:Here we go again back to John as your only authority on salavation when there is over 50 verses on salavation and yet you make no reasoning onto his over the others.


Ha ha ha


This is why born agains are so easily wound up, love it.

I mean its simple in other verses:

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:31

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Acts 2:21

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.
Luke 19:10

Backs up the concept very well and I do not even use one sourece unlike HF


Hee hee

So you have done nothing to refute this concept, unless you are claiming other parts of the bible are wrong?

Whoops

thank you for those wonderful scriptures all of which prove salvation is of the Lord...Jesus is the only way...lol

why does it say Jesus will say of some I did not know you, if all just have to call his name, you have to know who he is and why..lol

this is all such basic understanding...i can see why it is beyond you didge...

you are typical of people who can quote the bible but have no understanding...lol


Is that your rebuttal. Claim it backs your point?
When it further backs the concept

ha ha ha ha ha ha


Oh this is Priceless.
So in your own time HF where you still have to refute the concept

Laughing

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:31 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
heavenlyfatheryetagain wrote:

thank you for those wonderful scriptures all of which prove salvation is of the Lord...Jesus is the only way...lol

why does it say Jesus will say of some I did not know you, if all just have to call his name, you have to know who he is and why..lol

this is all such basic understanding...i can see why it is beyond you didge...

you are typical of people who can quote the bible but have no understanding...lol


Is that your rebuttal claim it backs your point

ha ha ha ha ha ha


Oh this is Priceless, it backs the concept

So in your own time HF where you still have to refute the concept

Laughing

i already have but you clearly lack the intellect to understand it..
it's not my fault you lack understanding, perhaps if you pray to the virgin mary or ask your parents or your bible college, oh you can't you proved them all false.....

well in your own mind.............................. lol!

perhaps we should go back to the teachings of Jesus, that weren't teachings just good character traits of someone who may or may not have existed... lol! lol!

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:34 pm

So yet more claims you have refuted the concept without refutting anything

Score ha ha ha ha ha ha

Never seen so many deflections and now an insult aimed to knock catholics is posted to me, an athiest.
Just made me fall off my chair laughing

ha ha ha ha ha ha


I love this

Try again

Laughing

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:37 pm

Cuchulain wrote:So yet more claims you have refuted the concept without refutting anything

Score ha ha ha ha ha ha

Never seen so many deflections and now an insult aimed to knock catholics is posted to me, an athiest.
Just made me fall off my chair laughing

ha ha ha ha ha ha


I love this

Try again

Laughing

i have refuted every part of it, that's why you have lol's all over as your ridiculous op has been dismantled with consummate ease.....

and would be by any sunday school child..

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:38 pm

heavenlyfatheryetagain wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:So yet more claims you have refuted the concept without refutting anything

Score ha ha ha ha ha ha

Never seen so many deflections and now an insult aimed to knock catholics is posted to me, an athiest.
Just made me fall off my chair laughing

ha ha ha ha ha ha


I love this

Try again

Laughing

i have refuted every part of it, that's why you have lol's all over as your ridiculous op has been dismantled with consummate ease.....

and would be by any sunday school child..

You have done nothing accept provide the forum with prime time entertainment with your stupidity ha ha ha ha


Thank you

Laughing

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:40 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
heavenlyfatheryetagain wrote:

i have refuted every part of it, that's why you have lol's all over as your ridiculous op has been dismantled with consummate ease.....

and would be by any sunday school child..

You have done nothing accept provide the forum with prime time entertainment with your stupidity ha ha ha ha


Thank you

Laughing

really , why would i want your job as resident fool...

I have shown your op for the drivel a child would know better than to utter..

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:53 pm

HF, you unwittingly pointed out the crucial logical problem. I'll point out another.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

But whoops, here comes James:

But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

So is Christian salvation based on belief, based on faith, based on works, or on two of these, or on all three?

However much you want to hand-wave the problem away, the implication of 3:16 is that anyone (including Satan, demons, and perhaps literalist Satan worshippers) who believes in Jesus gets ... uh-oh, another problematic term ... eternal life. We'll get back to that.

Now, I believe in the existence of Donald Trump. Does that mean I have faith in him? Of course not, faith is not the same thing as belief.

The second problem in 3:16 is the promise of eternal life. Of course, it doesn't mention where you'll life forever. It's taken to refer to heaven but could just as easily be hell ... Earth ... another planet ... ?

There are also problems in the James verse. "I will show you my faith by my works," "faith without works is useless." James is saying that works are crucial to living as a true Christian. You may disagree, but of course, that means you disagree with the Bible -- the New Testament!

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:57 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:HF, you unwittingly pointed out the crucial logical problem. I'll point out another.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

But whoops, here comes James:

But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

So is Christian salvation based on belief, based on faith, based on works, or on two of these, or on all three?

However much you want to hand-wave the problem away, the implication of 3:16 is that anyone (including Satan, demons, and perhaps literalist Satan worshippers) who believes in Jesus gets ... uh-oh, another problematic term ... eternal life. We'll get back to that.

Now, I believe in the existence of Donald Trump. Does that mean I have faith in him? Of course not, faith is not the same thing as belief.

The second problem in 3:16 is the promise of eternal life. Of course, it doesn't mention where you'll life forever. It's taken to refer to heaven but could just as easily be hell ... Earth ... another planet ... ?

There are also problems in the James verse. "I will show you my faith by my works," "faith without works is useless." James is saying that works are crucial to living as a true Christian. You may disagree, but of course, that means you disagree with the Bible -- the New Testament!

there is no problem with james at all...

we are saved by faith, salvation through Grace..... just as John 3:16 declares...

faith without works is dead because if you have faith but never use that faith how can it help you, you may have the faith to believe you can pray for the sick and they will be healed but if you never pray for the sick what good would having the faith do....

it is all quite simple, i can understand why you gave your faith up ben..lol you didn''t really have any...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:29 pm

heavenlyfatheryetagain wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:HF, you unwittingly pointed out the crucial logical problem. I'll point out another.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

But whoops, here comes James:

But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

So is Christian salvation based on belief, based on faith, based on works, or on two of these, or on all three?

However much you want to hand-wave the problem away, the implication of 3:16 is that anyone (including Satan, demons, and perhaps literalist Satan worshippers) who believes in Jesus gets ... uh-oh, another problematic term ... eternal life. We'll get back to that.

Now, I believe in the existence of Donald Trump. Does that mean I have faith in him? Of course not, faith is not the same thing as belief.

The second problem in 3:16 is the promise of eternal life. Of course, it doesn't mention where you'll life forever. It's taken to refer to heaven but could just as easily be hell ... Earth ... another planet ... ?

There are also problems in the James verse. "I will show you my faith by my works," "faith without works is useless." James is saying that works are crucial to living as a true Christian. You may disagree, but of course, that means you disagree with the Bible -- the New Testament!

there is no problem with james at all...

we are saved by faith, salvation through Grace..... just as John 3:16 declares...

faith without works is dead because if you have faith but never use that faith how can it help you, you may have the faith to believe you can pray for the sick and they will be healed but if you never pray for the sick what good would having the faith do....

it is all quite simple, i can understand why you gave your faith up ben..lol you didn''t really have any...

I thought I did, but it's really hard to get back into that cognitive-dissonance frame of mind, where you accept answers because God Smile

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:35 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheryetagain wrote:

there is no problem with james at all...

we are saved by faith, salvation through Grace..... just as John 3:16 declares...

faith without works is dead because if you have faith but never use that faith how can it help you, you may have the faith to believe you can pray for the sick and they will be healed but if you never pray for the sick what good would having the faith do....

it is all quite simple, i can understand why you gave your faith up ben..lol you didn''t really have any...

I thought I did, but it's really hard to get back into that cognitive-dissonance frame of mind, where you accept answers because God Smile

i can't imagine cognitive dissonance has ever been a problem for you Ben judging by the things you say on here.....

I'm afraid the one thing everyone who has claimed to have been a believer and now isn't have in common is once questioned it shows they know nothing about the bible or God...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:37 pm

I think it depends on how you were taught , if the Catholic faith had anything to do with it then it is no surprise that people turn away from God because it is full of works salvation and nothing to do with the grace that Jesus offers .

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:40 pm

Vicar Of Dibley wrote:I think it depends on how you were taught , if the Catholic faith had anything to do with it then it is no surprise that people turn away from God because it is full of works salvation and nothing to do with the grace that Jesus offers .

very true..... mind you the idea of saying sorry to a man in a box is kinda fun...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:00 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:HF, you unwittingly pointed out the crucial logical problem. I'll point out another.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

But whoops, here comes James:

But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

So is Christian salvation based on belief, based on faith, based on works, or on two of these, or on all three?

However much you want to hand-wave the problem away, the implication of 3:16 is that anyone (including Satan, demons, and perhaps literalist Satan worshippers) who believes in Jesus gets ... uh-oh, another problematic term ... eternal life. We'll get back to that.

Now, I believe in the existence of Donald Trump. Does that mean I have faith in him? Of course not, faith is not the same thing as belief.

The second problem in 3:16 is the promise of eternal life. Of course, it doesn't mention where you'll life forever. It's taken to refer to heaven but could just as easily be hell ... Earth ... another planet ... ?

There are also problems in the James verse. "I will show you my faith by my works," "faith without works is useless." James is saying that works are crucial to living as a true Christian. You may disagree, but of course, that means you disagree with the Bible -- the New Testament!


lol he is already confused bless him


lol!

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:05 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:HF, you unwittingly pointed out the crucial logical problem. I'll point out another.



But whoops, here comes James:



So is Christian salvation based on belief, based on faith, based on works, or on two of these, or on all three?

However much you want to hand-wave the problem away, the implication of 3:16 is that anyone (including Satan, demons, and perhaps literalist Satan worshippers) who believes in Jesus gets ... uh-oh, another problematic term ... eternal life. We'll get back to that.

Now, I believe in the existence of Donald Trump. Does that mean I have faith in him? Of course not, faith is not the same thing as belief.

The second problem in 3:16 is the promise of eternal life. Of course, it doesn't mention where you'll life forever. It's taken to refer to heaven but could just as easily be hell ... Earth ... another planet ... ?

There are also problems in the James verse. "I will show you my faith by my works," "faith without works is useless." James is saying that works are crucial to living as a true Christian. You may disagree, but of course, that means you disagree with the Bible -- the New Testament!


lol he is already confused bless him


lol!


I answered that one ages ago...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:06 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheryetagain wrote:

there is no problem with james at all...

we are saved by faith, salvation through Grace..... just as John 3:16 declares...

faith without works is dead because if you have faith but never use that faith how can it help you, you may have the faith to believe you can pray for the sick and they will be healed but if you never pray for the sick what good would having the faith do....

it is all quite simple, i can understand why you gave your faith up ben..lol you didn''t really have any...

I thought I did, but it's really hard to get back into that cognitive-dissonance frame of mind, where you accept answers because God Smile


Ha ha ha ha ha

Laughing

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:41 pm

Vicar Of Dibley wrote:I think it depends on how you were taught , if the Catholic faith had anything to do with it then it is no surprise that people turn away from God because it is full of works salvation and nothing to do with the grace that Jesus offers .

Funny how selective your memory can be; I also talked about how my father was Baptist, and he used to lead the family in a daily Bible reading, which he'd lead a discussion about afterward, and he emphasized the importance of being "saved."

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"Why do we even have pain? I was taught pain is to let us know when our body is breaking down. Well, why couldn’t we have a light? Like a dashboard light? If Chevrolet could come up with that, why couldn’t God? "

- George R.R. Martin
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Ben Reilly
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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:43 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Vicar Of Dibley wrote:I think it depends on how you were taught , if the Catholic faith had anything to do with it then it is no surprise that people turn away from God because it is full of works salvation and nothing to do with the grace that Jesus offers .

Funny how selective your memory can be; I also talked about how my father was Baptist, and he used to lead the family in a daily Bible reading, which he'd lead a discussion about afterward, and he emphasized the importance of being "saved."

did he define saved, did he do many studies on the gifts of the holy spirit...

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:50 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Vicar Of Dibley wrote:I think it depends on how you were taught , if the Catholic faith had anything to do with it then it is no surprise that people turn away from God because it is full of works salvation and nothing to do with the grace that Jesus offers .

Funny how selective your memory can be; I also talked about how my father was Baptist, and he used to lead the family in a daily Bible reading, which he'd lead a discussion about afterward, and he emphasized the importance of being "saved."


Like I say anyone who actually was raised in Christianity and knows far more than him he uses the time honoured daft claim that we were not, because he is that embarressed he knows nexxt to nothing on Christianity accept what that embezzler Joseph Prince has taught them after he has wiped them of their money

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:58 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

Funny how selective your memory can be; I also talked about how my father was Baptist, and he used to lead the family in a daily Bible reading, which he'd lead a discussion about afterward, and he emphasized the importance of being "saved."


Like I say anyone who actually was raised in Christianity and knows far more than him he uses the time honoured daft claim that we were not, because he is that embarressed he knows nexxt to nothing on Christianity accept what that embezzler Joseph Prince has taught them after he has wiped them of their money

lol yet every time you are questioned you prove you know nothing about christianity, only yesterday you couldn't decide if Jesus even existed, thank goodness you decided today he did......lol

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:59 pm

HF response to me

lol er lol er er yeah right lol errrrr I am stupid and know nothing about christianity eerrrrr lol

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:01 pm

Cuchulain wrote:HF response to me

lol er lol er er yeah right lol errrrr I am stupid and know nothing about christianity eerrrrr lol

hey you are the one who couldn't decide if Jesus even existed but you did follow his teachings that weren't teachings they were just good character from someone who never existed..

Smile

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Re: Hermeneutical Fun with the Bible, Salvation and Christology

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:01 pm

HF response to me

lol er lol er er yeah right lol  where is the bible I need help errrr lol errrrr I am stupid and know nothing about christianity eerrrrr lol

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