This is climate change: Alaskan villagers struggle as island is chewed up by the sea

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:09 pm

This is climate change: Alaskan villagers struggle as island is chewed up by the sea 900x506
This is what climate change looks like, up close and personal.
In this town of 403 residents 83 miles above the Arctic Circle, beaches are disappearing, ice is melting, temperatures are rising, and the barrier reef Kivalina calls home gets smaller and smaller with every storm.
There is no space left to build homes for the living. The dead are now flown to the mainland so the ocean won't encroach upon their graves. Most here agree that the town should be relocated; where, when and who will pay for it are the big questions. The Army Corps of Engineers figures Kivalina will be underwater in the next decade or so.
because the town's days on the edge of the Chukchi Sea are numbered, no money has been invested to improve residents' lives. Eighty percent of the homes do not have toilets. Most rely on homemade honey buckets — a receptacle lined with a garbage bag topped by a toilet seat.



Residents haul water from tanks in the middle of town, 25 cents for five gallons. The school is overcrowded. Still, the unpaved streets here ring with the laughter of children, the buzz of all-terrain vehicles, the whoosh of the wind.
Earlier this summer, White House advance staff cased the slender, apostrophe-shaped island to see whether President Obama could get here during his visit to the Arctic this week — the first by a sitting White House occupant. At the very least, he is scheduled to visit Kotzebue, less than 100 miles away, the heart of Alaska's Northwest Arctic Borough.
Obama has high hopes for addressing climate change during his remaining time in office. The Alaska trip is part of a global warming tour. In Washington he will talk environmental issues with Pope Francis in late September, and in Paris he will attend the United Nations Climate Change Conference in November.
The Alaska trip is part of an effort to "speak openly, honestly and frequently about how climate change is already affecting the lives of Americans and the strength and health of our economy," senior White House advisor Brian Deese said.
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Alaskans, Obama said Saturday in his weekly address, are already living with climate change's effects: "More frequent and extensive wildfires. Bigger storm surges as sea ice melts faster. Some of the swiftest shoreline erosion in the world — in some places, more than 3 feet a year.


This is climate change: Alaskan villagers struggle as island is chewed up by the sea 750x422
One of Kivalina's main roads. The tiny village of 403 residents on the Chukchi Sea lies 83 miles above the Arctic Circle. (Maria La Ganga / Los Angeles Times)

"Alaska's glaciers are melting faster too," he said, "threatening tourism and adding to rising seas. And if we do nothing, Alaskan temperatures are projected to rise between six and 12 degrees by the end of the century, changing all sorts of industries forever."
Although Obama views this state as the U.S. poster child for climate change, some Alaskans beg to differ. They are glad the president agreed to allow limited offshore oil exploration. They want more access to the vast state's natural resources. And they are wary of a leader who views their home as a global warming disaster area.
Gov. Bill Walker, who will meet with Obama during his visit to the Last Frontier, said he wants the president to support a natural gas pipeline and allow drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
But most of all, the independent governor said in a news conference Tuesday, he doesn't want the Lower 48 to achieve its environmental goals on the backs of Alaskans by barring access to natural resources.


"We probably have the smallest footprint per capita in the nation, if not the world, on impacting climate change," Walker said. "We have some impacts, there's no question, but ... I'm going to talk a lot about the economic climate change that we're experiencing today. That's really what my focus is going to be on with the president."
Shelby Adams has a different message for Obama. That is, if she gets to talk to him when he travels more than 3,600 miles from the Beltway to see the Arctic with his own eyes. Shelby, who just turned 13, has lived in Kivalina her entire life, and she loves her island home dearly.
"It's where I grew up, where everybody I know is," she said five days before Obama was scheduled to land in Kotzebue. "We need to relocate because the ocean is slowly eating away our island."

Shelby was in fourth grade when much of Kivalina was forced to evacuate during a fierce storm in 2011. She and her family were on one of the few planes that made it to the mainland before flying conditions became too dangerous. Everyone else sheltered in the school, the highest point on the nearly flat island.
"We had people sleeping in all the classrooms and the gym," said Emma Knowles, who was Shelby's teacher at McQueen School that year. "Someone had gotten a caribou the day before, so we made a huge pot of caribou stew.... The school didn't even budge. As dilapidated as it looks, it survived."
Kivalina is no stranger to harsh weather, and erosion worries have dogged the 27-acre town almost since its inception in 1905. In the 21st century, however, warming temperatures and the perilous changes that cascade from them have stripped the island of its major source of protection: ice.
Normally each fall, ice begins hugging the Kivalina shoreline around the end of October and stays until the end of June. Even during fierce storms, ice keeps the raging ocean away. But climate change has caused the ice to appear later and melt earlier, leaving the barrier island more vulnerable to storm surges.
Thinner ice also makes it harder for the Inupiat to go whaling. Normally, crews will build camps at the edge of the so-called shore-fast ice and hunt bowhead and beluga whales as they swim north in spring.
"If the shore-fast ice is thin and weak, it's not safe to make a camp," said Timothy Schuerch, president of the Maniilaq Assn., a tribally operated health services organization with clinics in Kivalina and the other borough villages. "Whaling crews have drifted out to sea."
The Inupiat who live in Kivalina get most of their food from the land and sea around them. The increasingly warm weather means an abundance of cloudberries and low-bush blackberries, said Millie Hawley, Kivalina tribal president, but it also threatens many of the food staples on which Alaska natives here depend.
"With the caribou, usually it's like clockwork," Hawley said. "Every June, we'd hunt. We haven't done that in years. It's unpredictable. We don't know when we'll see them."
Kivalina residents hang the caribou's hindquarters outside of their homes to age. The frozen meat is eaten raw, dipped in seal oil, which is also harvested in June. Trout is eaten the same way. The Inupiat also depend on seal for meat.
"Usually we get 80 to 100 seals for the whole community," Hawley said. "This year, we were looking to get eight. The community now has to go without dried meat and oil."


This is climate change: Alaskan villagers struggle as island is chewed up by the sea 650x366
Millie Hawley, Kivalina tribal president, in front of the sea wall that village residents hope can protect them from the Chukchi Sea until plans are made to relocate. (Maria La Ganga / Los Angeles Times)

When their traditional foods become scarce, island residents must depend on the Kivalina Native Store, the only one in town. Kivalina is closer to Russia than it is to Anchorage, and nearly all supplies are shipped here by air. Which accounts for astronomical prices:
A quart of shelf-stable whole milk runs $4.19. A can of Campbell's tomato soup is $2.95. A 5-pound bag of unbleached, all-purpose flour is $8.75. A 25.5-ounce bottle of Bertolli extra virgin olive oil is $23.79.
The store is Kivalina's pride and joy, the newest building in this wind-battered town. The old store burned down in December. Its replacement opened in July. It is big, clean, warm and well-stocked. And it stands out in a town of peeling paint and crowded, threatened structures, most on short stilts to protect from flooding.
The school, attended by 154 students from pre-kindergarten through high school, is so jammed that every available space is used for storage. Hallways, stairwells and classrooms are lined with books and supplies. A working washing machine stands at the end of one hall.
The main drags, Bering and Channel streets, are unpaved, their gravel surfaces deeply rutted from the rain and the ATVs that residents use to get around in summer.
Small houses crowd together; each is home to extended families, some of up to 17 or so. At least two houses, Hawley said, are in imminent danger of tumbling into the water. The cemetery lines Kivalina's slender runway, its crosses visible on takeoff and landing.
Because of erosion, there is almost no room to build, Hawley said, so "we break every state and federal regulation. The airport is supposed to be a mile or a mile and a half from the dump. It's 500 feet away."
The fuel tanks that run the power plant were in danger of falling into the Chukchi Sea, so the town moved them to higher, safer ground. Fifty feet away is a small cluster of housing for teachers, which cozies up right next to the school.
When Hawley is asked why her people don't move — somewhere, anywhere to be safe — she is polite but firm. The land and the water make the Inupiat who they are. If they moved to Kotzebue, they would be visitors.
Moving to Anchorage or Fairbanks, she said, "would be like asking us not to be a people any more."
So what does she want to tell the leader of the free world when she greets him next week — in Kotzebue, if not Kivalina?

"We are American citizens," she said, fast and fierce. "We have as much right as all of America to have access to the resources Washington provides. ... If you are going to provide millions of dollars to stop hunger in Africa, my people are hungry. Stop hunger here."

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-arctic-obama-20150830-story.html

It'll be under water in a lifetime.

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Post by eddie on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:12 pm

Oh no! Where will they go?
Imagine your home and your neighbourhood, being swallowed up like that?

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:15 pm

Frightening isn't it, but there are lots of places it is happening to.  Our coastline is being eroded and people still stick there heads in the sand.  Well pretty soon the sand will disappear!

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Post by eddie on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:34 pm

Yes I think so too.
So many people saying it's all rubbish, climate change, but you just have to look around you!

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:38 pm

Exactly, I worry for my grandchildren, makes me so mad that governments and big companies carry on regardless.

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Post by eddie on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:40 pm

My mum is always saying she wouldn't want to be bringing up young children now, she'd worry for their future too much.

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:41 pm

Absolutely agree with her, I think I was so lucky being a teenager in the 60s, we had so much hope.  Now, I have hardly any.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:43 pm

Why don't they just move?

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Post by eddie on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:50 pm

Well rags it's not always that easy and it's not about "just moving"

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:51 pm

hmmm...the syrians dont seem to have a problem with just moving....

perhaps the germans could welcome them at a footie match????

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:52 pm

eddie wrote:Well rags it's not always that easy and it's not about "just moving"

Why not? There's no point staying there. King Canute isn't available at the moment.

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:54 pm

thanks Ragga....I just choked on me tea reading that Laughing

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:57 pm

Personally I think you are Rags need your heads knocking together Victor, when islands, and large parts of Alaska are disappearing and you seem to think it is funny.  As for the Syrians having 'no trouble' moving when thousands of them drown and die in other manners trying to get away from sheer horror, I find that contemptible.

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:27 pm

sassy wrote:Personally I think you are Rags need your heads knocking together Victor, when islands, and large parts of Alaska are disappearing and you seem to think it is funny.  As for the Syrians having 'no trouble' moving when thousands of them drown and die in other manners trying to get away from sheer horror, I find that contemptible.

It is not the facts of the matter i find amusing sassy, more the irresistable (and logical) pragmatism of raggas post......

as to the syrians, I dont refer to the physical problem of moving , but to the (once again) irresistable pragmatism of doing so...whatever the hurdles....

here we have 2 very contrasting situations, both deadly...one group cant wait to "move out" the other doesnt want to (but will have to anyway).

more importantly...

untold 1000's die everyday, some in manners unimaginable to any civilised soul....
many live who deserve death and many die that deserve life, such is the state of mortal beings
some we are close to, others are far removed both in place and kinship
It is to the former I address MY concerns. those far away have to make their own peace and neither YOU nor I are responsible for either their condition OR their fate.
In all events unless YOU are holding the knife to their throat, YOU are not responsible for their fate.....






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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:33 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
sassy wrote:Personally I think you are Rags need your heads knocking together Victor, when islands, and large parts of Alaska are disappearing and you seem to think it is funny.  As for the Syrians having 'no trouble' moving when thousands of them drown and die in other manners trying to get away from sheer horror, I find that contemptible.

It is not the facts of the matter i find amusing sassy, more the irresistable (and logical) pragmatism of raggas post......

as to the syrians, I dont refer to the physical problem of moving , but to the (once again) irresistable pragmatism of doing so...whatever the hurdles....

here we have 2 very contrasting situations, both deadly...one group cant wait to "move out" the other doesnt want to (but will have to anyway).

more importantly...

untold 1000's die everyday, some in manners unimaginable to any civilised soul....
many live who deserve death and many die that deserve life, such is the state of mortal beings
some we are close to, others are far removed both in place and kinship
It is to the former I address MY concerns. those far away have to make their own peace and neither YOU nor I are responsible for either their condition OR their fate.
In all events unless YOU are holding the knife to their throat, YOU are not responsible for their fate.....






Apologise for having a go, it's a situation that makes me feel physically sick.  I have to disagree with you on your last sentence.  If I sit back and do nothing, I am responsible.  I can't do much, but if I don't do the things I can then my conscience will not let me rest.  We are all responsible for doing everything we can for the human race.  If we give up on that it will not survive and neither will we, our spirit will wither and die.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:36 pm

Well really, what can anyone do for people who refuse to help themselves? They want to be their "own people", but when it suits them they're "American citizens". I don't think even Obama can push back the sea at this point.

It looks like a shithole anyway.

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Post by eddie on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:53 pm

Harsh rags.
I think it's terribly sad when you're faced with being homeless, if you've got children it'd make you sick with worry.

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:56 pm

Most here agree that the town should be relocated; where, when and who will pay for it are the big questions. The Army Corps of Engineers figures Kivalina will be underwater in the next decade or so.
because the town's days on the edge of the Chukchi Sea are numbered, no money has been invested to improve residents' lives.


They are a poor island and locating a whole village is expensive, plus you have to have somewhere to locate it to, that is where the government should be acting, it isn't something the villagers can do by themselves.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:20 pm

eddie wrote:Harsh rags.
I think it's terribly sad when you're faced with being homeless, if you've got children it'd make you sick with worry.

They're refusing to move because of their ethnic roots or whatever. Sometimes people have to get on with things and accept that not everything in life is going to go their way. They don't have to leave Alaska, but it's a bit stupid to ignore the facts of what's happening just because they were born there or whatever.

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:22 pm

They are not refusing to move, they don't know how to, where to go, or how to find the money to relocate not only them but their businesses that give them the little money they have, and as they are part of the US, it has an obligation to help them.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:26 pm

sassy wrote:They are not refusing to move, they don't know how to, where to go, or how to find the money to relocate not only them but their businesses that give them the little money they have, and as they are part of the US, it has an obligation to help them.

When Hawley is asked why her people don't move — somewhere, anywhere to be safe — she is polite but firm. The land and the water make the Inupiat who they are. If they moved to Kotzebue, they would be visitors.
Moving to Anchorage or Fairbanks, she said, "would be like asking us not to be a people any more."

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:29 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:They are not refusing to move, they don't know how to, where to go, or how to find the money to relocate not only them but their businesses that give them the little money they have, and as they are part of the US, it has an obligation to help them.

When Hawley is asked why her people don't move — somewhere, anywhere to be safe — she is polite but firm. The land and the water make the Inupiat who they are. If they moved to Kotzebue, they would be visitors.
Moving to Anchorage or Fairbanks, she said, "would be like asking us not to be a people any more."

That's her, if you read the rest most of them agree they will have to move.


Most here agree that the town should be relocated; where, when and who will pay for it are the big questions.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:34 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:



That's her, if you read the rest most of them agree they will have to move.


Most here agree that the town should be relocated; where, when and who will pay for it are the big questions.

So they should just move.

People move all the time - why can't they?

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:43 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:




That's her, if you read the rest most of them agree they will have to move.


Most here agree that the town should be relocated; where, when and who will pay for it are the big questions.

So they should just move.

People move all the time - why can't they?


Think about it!  The whole village, school, businesses, health centre etc etc, who don't have much money, can hardly buy up acres and acres of land somewhere else and just move can they?  So, who is going to help them?  A decision will have to be made about where for a start.  It's huge, it's not just about 1 couple buying a house and moving.  Planning laws etc where they move to will come into it.  This is something that needs government intervention, it's the kind of thing that governments are supposed to handle because they have the wherewithall, not only in money, but in knowledge and equipment and where they would want them to go.   You talk about it as if it buying a flat!   The ramifications of this are enormous!

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:45 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So they should just move.

People move all the time - why can't they?


Think about it!  The whole village, school, businesses, health centre etc etc, who don't have much money, can hardly buy up acres and acres of land somewhere else and just move can they?  So, who is going to help them?  A decision will have to be made about where for a start.  It's huge, it's not just about 1 couple buying a house and moving.  Planning laws etc where they move to will come into it.  This is something that needs government intervention, it's the kind of thing that governments are supposed to handle because they have the wherewithall, not only in money, but in knowledge and equipment and where they would want them to go.   You talk about it as if it buying a flat!   The ramifications of this are enormous!

Well they don't all have to move together do they? People here move because they can't find a job or whatever. They don't demand that the Government relocates their entire village or town do they?

FFS, why can't people just pull themselves together? The climate is dodgy, the houses are dodgy, so move! Why are they more special than anyone else who has to relocate?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:47 pm

What do they do for anyone else anyway? Nothing, zero, zilch. People have to help themselves instead of sitting there waiting for someone else to bail them out.

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Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:49 pm

Why shouldn't the government move the whole town?  Is climate change the problem of the islanders?  They need the back up of each other, the children need the continuity, of course they should all move together.  A way of life is being taken from them, the least the government can do is keep them together.  Have you no idea of the mental impact this will create?

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This is climate change: Alaskan villagers struggle as island is chewed up by the sea Empty Re: This is climate change: Alaskan villagers struggle as island is chewed up by the sea

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:50 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:What do they do for anyone else anyway? Nothing, zero, zilch. People have to help themselves instead of sitting there waiting for someone else to bail them out.

I find that statement utterly disgusting.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:51 pm

sassy wrote:Why shouldn't the government move the whole town?  Is climate change the problem of the islanders?  They need the back up of each other, the children need the continuity, of course they should all move together.  A way of life is being taken from them, the least the government can do is keep them together.  Have you no idea of the mental impact this will create?

Oh FFS. Do they spoonfeed each other as well?

We all have a way of life, and sometimes you have to change that way of life because of circumstances. They don't even have to do that very much - they don't have to move to California or something.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:55 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:What do they do for anyone else anyway? Nothing, zero, zilch. People have to help themselves instead of sitting there waiting for someone else to bail them out.

I find that statement utterly disgusting.

Why? You're always going on and on about how groups of people need to be helped. What do they do to help anyone else? Nothing - they just hold out their hands for money. I had to move to get a job years ago, I had to leave the place where I wanted to stay. I just got on with it and made a new life.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:58 pm

I sometimes think that the lefties on this forum were born with silver spoons in their mouths. They never had to move and change their whole life, they never had trouble finding a job, or a place to live. It's easy for them to sit there going on about "vulnerable" people because they never had to lift a finger themselves.

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Post by Guest on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:04 am

Raggamuffin wrote:I sometimes think that the lefties on this forum were born with silver spoons in their mouths. They never had to move and change their whole life, they never had trouble finding a job, or a place to live. It's easy for them to sit there going on about "vulnerable" people because they never had to lift a finger themselves.

I've moved about 20 times in my life, lived all over the world, worked for all kinds of people, had my own business and been a director of another, I had to start my life again from scratch at least 4 times.

Climate change is affecting them, that is not their fault.  Climate change nearly wiped out the farms on the Somerset levels and affected badly the south coast.  The Government had to step in and help, THAT'S WHAT WE PUT THEM IN GOVERNMENT FOR.  What do you think they are supposed to do, sit on their bums and collect the money.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:07 am

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I sometimes think that the lefties on this forum were born with silver spoons in their mouths. They never had to move and change their whole life, they never had trouble finding a job, or a place to live. It's easy for them to sit there going on about "vulnerable" people because they never had to lift a finger themselves.

I've moved about 20 times in my life, lived all over the world, worked for all kinds of people, had to start my life again from scratch at least 4 times.

Climate change is affecting them, that is not their fault.  Climate change nearly wiped out the farms on the Somerset levels and affected badly the south coast.  The Government had to step in and help, THAT'S WHAT WE PUT THEM IN GOVERNMENT FOR.  What do you think they are supposed to do, sit on their bums and collect the money.

Well the lack of jobs up north wasn't my fault either, but I didn't sit there whinging and saying that the Government should relocate the whole town.

You just have to get on with it and make the best of things. It's not as if the place has been suddenly wiped out with no warning. It's been eroding for years and years, and they've had plenty of time to sort themselves out.

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Post by Guest on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:12 am

Sometimes Rags, you are so bloody inept at understanding a situation it takes my breath away.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:16 am

sassy wrote:Sometimes Rags, you are so bloody inept at understanding a situation it takes my breath away.

And your view that people are completely helpless, and that the Government is to blame for everything, including the weather, takes my breath away. I'm surprised that you think anyone can get themselves dressed in the morning.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:17 am

If people choose to live in such a ridiculous place, they must surely come to the conclusion that it's not such a great idea and do something about it instead of waiting for someone to save them.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:22 am

They can move to Kotzebu. It's only down the road, and I'm sure the people there would love to see them.

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Post by veya_victaous on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:51 am

Raggamuffin wrote:If people choose to live in such a ridiculous place, they must surely come to the conclusion that it's not such a great idea and do something about it instead of waiting for someone to save them.

LOL so you would welcome them in the UK Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

or does that come under
If people choose to live in such a ridiculous place
tongue tongue tongue tongue

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:15 am

Raggamuffin wrote:If people choose to live in such a ridiculous place, they must surely come to the conclusion that it's not such a great idea and do something about it instead of waiting for someone to save them.

You realize, of course, that most people in the world are barely scraping by and can't afford to move? It's a big expense.

Honestly. People with ISIS in their backyard should stay where they are, but people who live in a tiny, poor village where one in every four lives below the poverty line should just hire movers and buy new houses ...

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:57 am

There are plenty of people from their own ethnic group who can help them. After all, they want to stick with their "own kind" don't they?

I'm surprised nobody has commented on this bit.

"We are American citizens," she said, fast and fierce. "We have as much right as all of America to have access to the resources Washington provides. ... If you are going to provide millions of dollars to stop hunger in Africa, my people are hungry. Stop hunger here."

If anyone else had complained about the money going to Africa, you'd all be up in arms.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:10 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:There are plenty of people from their own ethnic group who can help them. After all, they want to stick with their "own kind" don't they?

I'm surprised nobody has commented on this bit.

"We are American citizens," she said, fast and fierce. "We have as much right as all of America to have access to the resources Washington provides. ... If you are going to provide millions of dollars to stop hunger in Africa, my people are hungry. Stop hunger here."

If anyone else had complained about the money going to Africa, you'd all be up in arms.

You have little to no idea what it means to be an American, to be fair. You come from a society that is much more monochromatic and culturally uniform, but in the U.S. you're no more American for being white and living in the suburbs than you are for being an Alaskan Inuit.

I actually do agree with the idea that the U.S. government's first priority should be the welfare of American citizens. We're one of the wealthiest countries in the world, though, so we can still afford to help other countries as well.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:30 pm



Tell You what Sassy... let the whole world move to UK in exchange for the whole UK population to have the rest of the world to ourselves!?


Or maybe everyone across the world should all stop using anything that gives out heat for a few days...?

No ovens or cookers, no tvs, computers, no lights, no engines allowed to run, no air conditioning units, no machines, no fridges or freezers, no hot water heating systems etc...


We'd probably plunge straight into an ice age!!!


Wouldn't that be fun!!!???


Laughing






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Post by Guest on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:38 pm

You make an art forum of looking dim.  This is an internal USA problem and fuck all to do with the UK.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Tell You what Sassy... let the whole world move to UK in exchange for the whole UK population to have the rest of the world to ourselves!?


Or maybe everyone across the world should all stop using anything that gives out heat for a few days...?

No ovens or cookers, no tvs, computers, no lights, no engines allowed to run, no air conditioning units, no machines, no fridges or freezers, no hot water heating systems etc...


We'd probably plunge straight into an ice age!!!


Wouldn't that be fun!!!???


Laughing






Do you actually think climate change is caused by the heat that machines are giving off??!! affraid

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:50 pm

Do you really think the overall global temperature is not affected in any way by all the heat given off by the things I mentioned across the world...!?



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Post by Guest on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:52 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Tell You what Sassy... let the whole world move to UK in exchange for the whole UK population to have the rest of the world to ourselves!?


Or maybe everyone across the world should all stop using anything that gives out heat for a few days...?

No ovens or cookers, no tvs, computers, no lights, no engines allowed to run, no air conditioning units, no machines, no fridges or freezers, no hot water heating systems etc...


We'd probably plunge straight into an ice age!!!


Wouldn't that be fun!!!???


Laughing






Do you actually think climate change is caused by the heat that machines are giving off??!! affraid


He's actually that stupid.  Really!  You have to wonder how he gets himself dressed.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:01 pm

Sassy the twat on one hand argues that man made heat is responsible for climate change... this heat is trapped in the atmosphere... nothing to do with heat from the sun... but then that all man made heat from every man made heat source across the world somehow disappears without trace, to somewhere outside of our atmosphere, and using a route that bypasses all the man made stuff that traps it into our atmosphere!!!







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Post by Guest on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:04 pm

OMGG!  Not man made heat you numpty, CO2 emissions are the problem.   I didn't believe anyone could be that unknowledgeable in this day and age.


Last edited by sassy on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:11 pm

Are you really this thick Sassy...!?




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Post by veya_victaous on Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:56 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Sassy the twat on one hand argues that man made heat is responsible for climate change... this heat is trapped in the atmosphere... nothing to do with heat from the sun... but then that all man made heat from every man made heat source across the world somehow disappears without trace, to somewhere outside of our atmosphere, and using a route that bypasses all the man made stuff that traps it into our atmosphere!!!



that has got to be one of the most confused post i have ever read Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect


Tommy there is a specific layer in the upper atmosphere made primary of carbon dioxide, that essentially acts like the clear roof in a greenhouse. Humans via cars and power plants (burning stuff) produce Vast amounts of carbon dioxide (really it is the carbon atoms that then attaches to the oxygen atoms already in the air) some of that carbon dioxide joins that layer making it thicker and provides greater insulation.
The heat largely from the sun is then trapped in lower atmosphere just like a green house traps the heat

man made heat is localized, it may have a small effect but it is energy not matter so it dissipates naturally (if it is not applied to a physical object the energy will be 'consumed' by the air molecules around the heat source in them vibrating and rising)

Carbon is matter, it was in the tree/coal/oil by burning it we separate the molecules allowing some of the carbon to float around(smoke)

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