Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust?

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Post by Guest on Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:05 pm

Some Christians claim faith is something like 'trusting, holding to and acting on what one has good reason to believe is true in the face of difficulties', or 'trust or confidence in something or someone.'

This is not correct. From the New Testament down through centuries of church theology and even today, Christians have produced a multiple number of mutually discordant definitions of faith. David Eller says: “the concept of belief in Western civilization and Christianity has evolved, from a kind of “trust” in god(s) to specific propositions about God and Christ to the notion of “grace” based on the personal experience of and commitment to God…The evolutionary trajectory of belief in Christianity is, then…culturally and religiously relative.” (Quoted in Loftus, The Outsider Test for Faith, p. 33)]

Take for instance Norman L. Geisler, arguably one of the biggest names in Christian apologetics, along with cowriter Frank Turek, say in their book I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, “The less evidence you have for your position, the more faith you need to believe it (and vice versa). Faith covers a gap in knowledge.” Their whole argument is that “the atheist has to muster a lot more faith than the Christian.” (pp. 25-26) Implicit is the assumption that faith adds something to the mix, that it takes off where the probabilities end.

More to the point, how do reasonable people come to trust in someone or something? That’s the real question here. We do so based on the evidence. The greater the evidence then the greater we trust in something or someone. It’s that simple. The only way someone can objectively place a reasonable trust in the existence of one’s deity, and that he cares, is with sufficient evidence that he exists and that he cares. There is no other way. There must be sufficient evidence for this trust. Faith has nothing to do with this. Objective probabilities are all that matter.

All Christians basically have are private, subjective religious experiences, and that’s it, experiences that other believers in other deities likewise claim. But private, subjective religious experiences are only evidence of private, subjective religious experiences. So when Christians claim it’s reasonable to believe, they are pretending to know something the objective evidence is against.

I don’t expect believers to agree until they reject faith, but it is crystal clear to the rest of us. Just as the religious faiths of others are considered irrational to Christians, so also is their own faith. Just as Christians think other religious faiths are held despite the cold hard evidence, so also is their own faith. The problem is faith.

Since the English language has the words belief and faith in our dictionaries we instinctively use them when others words would be better. No scientifically minded person should say, “I believe the earth is round” or “I believe our universe began with a big bang,” or “I believe two parallel lines do not intersect.” That is a misuse of the word, a word inherited in the Christian Western world. We know these things to be the case. When someone says, “I believe it will rain tomorrow” or “I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning,” these are predictions. Predictions are either based on good evidence or they are not. So the proper way to speak would be: “I predict it will rain tomorrow.” When it comes to the sun rising we should say: “I know the sun will rise tomorrow.” The same thing goes for the sentence, “I believe that the accused is innocent of the crime.” One could be intending to say “I hope” or “I trust” or “I desire that he is innocent of the crime.” If the person has solid evidence to back it up then he can say, “I know he’s innocent.” Then we can evaluate the evidence.

David Eller explains, “So, clearly, most of the time when we say that we ‘believe that’ something, we are really engaging in some other activity than belief.” Eller writes that in “situations where the evidence is inadequate and the question is unsettled, it is wise for us to neither believe nor disbelieve but to wait for more information . . . if the evidence warrants a positive conclusion, accept it as true; if the evidence warrants a negative conclusion, reject it as false; if the evidence warrants no conclusion, postpone arriving at a conclusion while pursuing more information. But at no point is belief warranted, necessary or helpful.” He continues, “Belief can never be anything better than premature arrival at a conclusion (figuratively ‘jumping to a conclusion’) and can often be much worse, like accepting an unjustified and more-than-likely false conclusion.” Eller concludes, “There is knowledge and there are other kinds of things—opinions, hypotheses, theories, preferences, predictions, hopes, values, and wishes—but belief quite emphatically and thoroughly has no place in our mental world.” [Quoted on pages 215-216 in Loftus The Outsider Test for Faith]

Now I know Christians will disagree with what I've written here. They still think faith is a virtue. So let’s just put it a different way and see if we can agree. In his book Atheism: The Case Against God, George Smith argued against “faith as an alleged method of acquiring knowledge.” He wrote: “faith as an alleged method of acquiring knowledge is totally invalid—and as a consequence, all propositions of faith, because they lack rational demonstration, must conflict with reason.” (p. 120) What I want to know is if any given Christian agrees with this. If he of she does then there is not much else to discuss. If not, then Christians needs to explain how faith provides any objective knowledge about matters of fact, that is, about the nature of nature and its workings.


http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/is-faith-to-be-defined-as-trust.html#more

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:08 am

only to dumb asses (by that i mean Abrahamists)

faith is just belief without proof, many things are believed in good faith without being fundamentally wrong.

believing something you KNOW to be wrong is not faith at all it is stupidity, the only way that Abrahamist can claim it to be faith is that they are so stupid/damaged/indoctrinated they are unable to accept facts of reality, so they don't know it is wrong even though all non-brain damaged individuals know it is wrong.

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:39 am

Blind trust. Like having a partner who goes out every night but wont tell you whrere but you trust them anyway because they are your partner- that kind of trust..,

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:20 am

but just like trust not all faith is blind
Like we have faith in modern medicine because it is seen to have a pretty good success rate. sometimes faith is based on a logical analytical decision.

I think the Op is cherry picking
we 'believe' something because we acknowledge that is could be wrong.
Also I think the Op showed his blind faith
“I believe our universe began with a big bang,”
Any Scientifically knowledgeable person would say that if they agreed with big bang hypothesis, Big bang is NOT fact at all or even close to being fact, it seems quite likely BUT we need a massive amount of data before we can get close to saying with any degree of certainty. Yet the op claims to Know it is the case, if so how? cause the top Physics don't know it is the case. Anyone that has seen and even begun to understand the formulas that lead to the hypothesis of a singularity state (the pre big bang universe) knows there are so many unknown variables and variables that are irrational numbers (i.e divided by 0 ) that it could easily be wrong. literally tomorrow we may find a measurement (weight of dark matter etc) that could prove the big bang wrong. weirdly we are more likely to prove it wrong than right at this point as we need tonnes of data for conclusive evidence to prove it true but a single piece of data could be enough to show the existing formulas don't work.

the Op is actually WRONG very wrong
it may be right about Abrahamism (which i know is it focused on but replacing one blind faith with another is not really the goal) but quantum physics is still a 'faith based' science in that no one has enough to PROVE anything much. Individually physicists each have Faith in their (or a particular) hypothesis and spend their lives trying to get the numbers to prove it with vary degrees of success. But that whole journey of TRYING TO MAKE KNOWLEDGE requires an individual (at least) to have enough faith in a hypothesis to dedicate themselves to attaining the measurements needed to prove it.

If there was no faith there would be know new knowledge either, it takes effort to prove stuff. if no one has enough faith in ideas unproven to actually go out and try and prove it, it is just a self defeating cycle of clinging to old texts from old masters and proclaiming "the old way to be the true ways"... which is already sounding an awful lot like organized religions Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect


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Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:13 am

Illogical response Veya on every level.
Medicines are tested for years before they are placed on the market to say it is faith is inherantly wrong to claim that they are using faith.
With science again it actually sets out to prove itself wrong all the time, which is why science can be wrong the point you are missing. So no science does not use faith in any shape or form at all. The big bang is just a hypoethsis which is the whole point, and are not based on faith. The article is 100% right. To say quantum physics is still a 'faith based' science is completely illogical because it does take the view that a hyposthisis can be wrong, which faith does not allow for being wrong, the point you miss. A scienitist may have faith their work is right but would never claim that as a bases to claim if it was right.

In order to have faith, means a person doubts. For example if you love someone trust comes automatically and faith does not even come into the equation. You do not have faith your partner loves you, as that would mean you have doubt. Trust is knowing your partner loves you. In order for faith to exist requires doubt, but many people will in many cases not except that reality and in many cases place blind faith in something. All faith is blind. Faith is something that many people seem to need, as it is a means to combat doubt, but it can allow for poor decisions.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:31 am

So you don't have faith in medicine to find cure that do not yet exist? You think all the trying to find a cure for cancer is a waste of time? So you might not have faith in mankind to achieve these things that are currently impossible but some of us to have 100% faith in the mankind ability to achieve what we currently think is impossible. that is why we invest in peoples unproven ideas since We have FAITH that they might get us a step closer (and no they do not always there is as many failed as successful developments)

you don't have to trust something you know it true, you failed your own argument

faith and trust are the same they a both statements of a fact that "we choose to act as if it is proven although we acknowledge that it is not" other wise we would say "we know" that is the entire argument of the OP Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

LOL
and you prove my point that Abrahamist damage people psychologically to the point they are unable to comprehend even simple things.
FAITH is not absolute only "BLIND faith" is as you and the OP describe but blind faith is the smallest and rarest form of faith.
Faith allows you to be wrong... Your assumption it does not is incorrect and ONLY applicable to Abrahamists Again PLEASE seek Help for the child abuse you sustained at the hand of Abrahamists

And Quantum Physics is 100% faith as we use formulas that are unproven to based the next tier of formulas on. NO ONE that understands even the beginnings of quantum physics will say there is not a large degree of faith involved.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:38 am

You don't even know why Abrahamist faith is self defeating, IT is not that they have faith it is that they have faith in book that says to contain all knowledge IF they had faith in almost anything else they could freely adapt.
the Issue is what they have faith in is not Unproven it is "proven incorrect" completely different things
I would say to even suggest an Abrahamists have faith is a fallacy they have lies that contradict reality as proven.. that is just dumb it is not faith it is stupidity.

YES they claim to have faith but they also say moron things like "I know this because faith" which is a sentence that does not even make sense, because you have faith in things YOU CANNOT KNOW otherwise you don't have faith in them you know them.. again that is the point of the OPs argument except is is a very limited and narrow view of faith that is incorrect and quite frankly prejudice/discriminatory against all no Abrahamists.

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Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:39 am

Never claimed trying to find a cure for cancer is a waste of time.
Where did I state that.
You seem to think faith is needed in order for that to happen.
Its not, people will work to find a cure in order to save people, of which I "hope" that thery do. It again does not require faith, as again faith means doubt which again actually would mean doubting that they can.
You see you fail to understand faith in itself.
Trust does not need faith, as do you trust yoursellf to be able to place one leg in front of the other? Yes, that is how we learn to walk and everyday we trust that we can still do that, it does not require faith at all, we trust that we can do that.
Faith is born from dout as I have easily explained, you just cannot work it out.
I am confident in time cures will be found for many illnesses, that does not require faith either just that our understanding of how things work is growing all the time.
We certainly use faith like when we say we have faith in humanity, because at the same time we have doubt in humanity because not all humans are the same.
Faith does not allow for being wrong and Quantum Physics does allow for hyporthesis to be wrong so to claim it is faith based is again illogical.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:40 am

you said you have no faith so do you have faith that mankind will find a cure for cancer?

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Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:43 am

veya_victaous wrote:you said you have no faith so do you have faith that mankind will find a cure for cancer?

Where agian did I say that?
I never did.
I have confidence a cure will be found because our knowledge advances all the time in science, due to the fact science has helped cure many things once thought could not be cured.
Again you do not understand faith.
I never said that we at times do not have or use faith, I am stating that faith is born from doubt..

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:46 am

Umm yes faith is needed
NOT in some magic Sky giant, that is NOT FAITH that is stupidity

the faith that is required is the faith in ones own education/knowledge and Hypothesis. TO start with Every one that has achieved a great step in human development has done so without Knowing with nothing but self belief in their Ideas.
the NEXT faith that is needed is on behalf of a financier, even with the most brilliant Idea if know one has faith in your idea and you don't have the resources to prove it yourself.. it will remain unproven... Making knowledge requires faith at the first step.


I repeat my original
If there was no faith there would be know new knowledge either, it takes effort to prove stuff. if no one has enough faith in ideas unproven to actually go out and try and prove it, it is just a self defeating cycle of clinging to old texts from old masters and proclaiming "the old way to be the true ways"... which is already sounding an awful lot like organized religions

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Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:51 am

I never even said that faith is not needed.
Again when a person states ones day there will be worl peace it is born from doubt.
You simply fail to understand how faith is formed.
At no point am I saying it is not needed for some, but faith is inherantly born from doubt.
Why do you need faith in your own education.
Again we learn to talk and walk, they did not require faith because we see growing up people do the same. That shows it is very possible and it did not require faith at all for us to learn how to do both did it?

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:54 am

Cuchulain wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:you said you have no faith so do you have faith that mankind will find a cure for cancer?

Where agian did I say that?
I never did.
I have confidence a cure will be found because our knowledge advances all the time in science, due to the fact science has helped cure many things once thought could not be cured.
Again you do not understand faith.
I never said that we at times do not have or use faith, I am stating that faith is born from doubt..


or Faith is born from confidence that depends on if someone is pessimistic or optimistic
So you doubt man kinds ability to cure cancer? Suspect Suspect Suspect or are you optimistic they will?

Science cant make knowledge out of thin air, someone has to have enough faith in themselves to PUT FORWARD the idea before any testing can even get started. Faith in Humanity, education and the potential of the human brain is perfectly valid And does not come from doubt, it comes from hope. Plus there is an acknowledgement that we may be wrong we may reach our peak BUT those with faith in mankind will act and work toward the making the next impossible thing possible.




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Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:58 am

Faith is born from doubt.
On every level, people believe in religions because they doubt what happens after death, and thus doubt leads them to have faith in religion. You seem to think science require people having faith in themselves to further our knowledge, but again that faith will have been born from doubt they may not succeed. You see faith in itself maybe need by people at times to provide the push needed, but it is born from the very doubt of failure and to over come that failure. Again you seem to be stuck that I think faith is not needed, which at no point have I said it is irrelevant, what I have stated time and again for you that is that faith is completely born from doubt.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:13 am

I can tell you why we need faith in our education/knowledge

Today some asked me can I make a package for windows 10
which isn't even out yet
but i have to give them an answer so based on faith in my education and experience so i said Yes. it is faith and it could come back to bite me on the arse it is faith based in confidence

And I would suggest this pointless
we are at different levels because you want answers because you doubt and fear the unknown rather than accept it and have faith in yours/humanities abilities to get through

it is not based on doubt for everyone, some may be but all men are not created equals.

I think you would get value form reading this
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/06/14/did-albert-einstein-believe-in-god-or-not/

“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who — in their grudge against the traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ — cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
~Einstein

and that is so true Not just in you but many that have been raised and then escape the mental captivity that is Abrahamism.

Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust? Always-be-yourself-Bruce-Lee-quote

Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust? Erich-fromm-quote-love-means-to-commit-oneself-without-guarantee-to

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Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:15 am

You have not understood a single point I have been making Veya.

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Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:19 am

The reason you have not understood Veya, is at no point did I ever claim having faith is inherantly bad and that sometimes faith can be beneficial.
What I will repeat for you as it has still not sunk in, is that faith is always born from doubt.
Not going to exhaust arguing this either.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:40 am

I do understand but you a limiting faith to one aspect Like the Op did as i said Cherry picking examples I can just as easily cherry pick examples that show the opposite because it is not true, there is potentially as many variations of faith as there is people on the planet. and the majority of faith is not religious in nature.

the OP tries too hard to discredit Abrahamism when it could have just said it is wrong there are mountains of proof to show that,
people that continue to state they believe it do so out of stupidity/tradition/indoctrination as the sentence "I know 'x' to be true because of faith" doesn't make sense. The Op is trying to use logic on a groups whose argument never made sense to begin with.

to someone that believes in logic and reason the sentence should be "I have faith in 'x' because of 'x' reasons" or "I have faith in 'x' because it is logical because of 'x' patterns/systems"

I also like this line from the link i posted above
if Einstein lived today, he’d say he’s not a “New Atheist.” He wouldn’t be trying to convince you to shed your faith. Instead, he’d follow the Neil deGrasse Tyson approach to religion, which is to say he’d stay away from labels… but even he’d admit the idea of a Christian God who listens to your prayers and watches over your life is just flat-out ridiculous.

Neil deGrasse Tyson is excellent, I really like so much of his work. really there are so many interesting questions to ask BUT NONE OF THEM involve this Abrahamist nonsense, the sooner atheists stop acknowledging it the better as we can move on to things that at least MIGHT be right.


AN Aside for you to consider
do we in the west even know how much we have faith in our systems which we take for granted?... consider it, don't we just have faith that the systems will work and there will be food tomorrow?

I imagine we would view things differently if we didn't have such reliable systems which warrant our faith and so rarely fail us....
interesting that places with higher organized faith have less faith in their systems (often with good reason) I wonder if organized Faith would drop If they had systems where they didn't have to worry about starving etc? Suspect

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:53 am

Cuchulain wrote:The reason you have not understood Veya, is at no point did I ever claim having faith is inherantly bad and that sometimes faith can be beneficial.
What I will repeat for you as it has still not sunk in, is that faith is always born from doubt.
Not going to exhaust arguing this either.

nope the reason i disagree is that i am optimist and you are a pessimist.
I say faith is confidence in an outcome
you say it is doubt causes the belief in something... BUT I don't see how you can have doubts in humanity and that makes your faith in it confused confused this is why i say it is cherry picking as it in not always the case.

I can see with Abrahamist limited faith that yes many of them may claim to have faith because of doubt(i hate calling it that as it is just being wrong, faith implies you have a reason to believe it, not lack of reason) but there are things that people have faith that have nothing to do with doubt

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Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:24 am

This is why I have little time or respect to debate you when you invent nonsense.
I am a realist, not a pessimist, there is nothing to show factual wise I am pessimistic about.
I am saying faith requires doubt in thye first place and you cannot even see that it does.
If you need faith in something it is because you have doubt, as you would have no need to have that faith in the first place.
Think about that and then you might start to understand what I say is true.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:54 pm

From my own experience being raised as a Christian kid, the faith element was actually quite murky and I suspect most believers are conditioned in childhood the way I was.

You'd have one of those moments where you were emotionally moved by something, say the beauty of nature, and when you'd tell someone like a parent or church leader about it, they'd say that was something like feeling the presence of Jesus, or feeling the Holy Spirit in your heart.

At that point you don't actually need anything I would define as faith, because as long as you believed what this authority figure was telling you, you had an experience that you associated with God being real and having the power to affect your emotional state.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:57 pm

didge you are one of the most pessimistic poster on here Neutral nicko and victor might beat you though Cool
it is not a bad thing but none of views are optimistic and although several are realistic there are also several like anything to do with faith that are pessimistic in the extreme. on balance you are pessimistic.

and I am telling you NO it is not only doubt I Personally have faith in things for the OPPOSITE of doubt, it see confidence in a possible answer.(yes some may have doubt but 100% positive that NOT ALL ARE DOUBT stop suggesting the experiences of an abrahamist are the same as everyone else) it is not doubt because NO ONE KNOWS that is just fact, no one knows for sure so you cant doubt something no one knows.

See this is your pessimism, you think not knowing is doubt, rather than not knowing being the default state and the joy of learning/discovery being the goal. This is drilled into Abrahamists that they seek answers from a book or a priest to 'be told' because 'they know' well they don't know they never did the group that knows the most does so by embracing the fact that we don't know a lot of things so seek to find answers.


So do you have faith? and do you have doubt? in which case doubt in What exactly because no one has ever actually given evidence for any 'thing' to doubt confused
lack of doubt in what too confused your whole point is built on the faulty logic taught in Abrahamism which we agree is wrong.

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Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust? Empty Re: Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust?

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:11 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:From my own experience being raised as a Christian kid, the faith element was actually quite murky and I suspect most believers are conditioned in childhood the way I was.

You'd have one of those moments where you were emotionally moved by something, say the beauty of nature, and when you'd tell someone like a parent or church leader about it, they'd say that was something like feeling the presence of Jesus, or feeling the Holy Spirit in your heart.

At that point you don't actually need anything I would define as faith, because as long as you believed what this authority figure was telling you, you had an experience that you associated with God being real and having the power to affect your emotional state.

and that is the point Ben
you were taught a lie, Jesus has nothing to do with it the church has nothing to do with it man has nothing to do with it
the beauty of nature is the divine miracle itself it is has existed long before us and hopefully long after us too. the mystery of life, the amazing tenacity diversity growth and evolution. the fact that it is all linked to energy radiating from a star truly links life to, as Einstein puts it 'music in the movement of the celestial bodies' Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust? 919144451


He who finds a thought that enables him to obtain a slightly deeper glimpse into the eternal secrets of nature has been given great grace.

Everything is determined by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust - we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.

You cannot solve a problem from the same level of consciousness that created it
The most difficult part about understanding something is that we understand it all.

http://blog.gaiam.com/quotes/authors/albert-einstein?page=9

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Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust? Empty Re: Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust?

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:12 am

message to Abrahamists
this is not faith, this is stupid
Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust? ZrjH4or

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Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust? Empty Re: Is Faith To Be Defined As Trust?

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:13 am

veya_victaous wrote:didge you are one of the most pessimistic poster on here Neutral  nicko and victor might beat you though Cool
it is not a bad thing but none of views are optimistic and although several are realistic there are also several like anything to do with faith that are pessimistic in the extreme. on balance you are pessimistic.

and I am telling you NO it is not only doubt I Personally have faith in things for the OPPOSITE of doubt, it see confidence in a possible answer.(yes some may have doubt but 100% positive that NOT ALL ARE DOUBT stop suggesting the experiences of an abrahamist are the same as everyone else) it is not doubt because NO ONE KNOWS that is just fact, no one knows for sure so you cant doubt something no one knows.

See this is your pessimism, you think not knowing is doubt, rather than not knowing being the default state and the joy of learning/discovery being the goal. This is drilled into  Abrahamists that they seek answers from a book or a priest to 'be told' because 'they know' well they don't know they never did the group that knows the most does so by embracing the fact that we don't know a lot of things so seek to find answers.


So do you have faith? and do you have doubt? in which case doubt in What exactly because no one has ever actually given evidence for any 'thing' to doubt confused  
lack of doubt in what too confused  your whole point is built on the faulty logic taught in Abrahamism which we agree is wrong.


This is why I have utterly no respect for you because you continue to come out with such inane drivel.
You say I am pessimistic and yet offer nothing to substantiate your claim
At no point have I said I do not have the outloook for better things in the world, when the reality is that I do.
You just invent things because your argument falls apart when I prove to you that to have faith it requires doubt in the first place which you still fail to grasp at every turn. You then deflect the debate with the monst inane claims which do not add up to any validity.
I have never even stated that having faith is wrong or baqd because it does bring great help to many people in bad times or in their worst times of needs. You just cannot comprehend how it does come about. For example in Britains greatest hour of need after Dunkirk there was great doubt Britain could stop a German Invasion, and it took great faith to overcome this with speeches from Churchill to unite the people. It was though doubt in the first place that brought about the faith needed.
Is this starting to sink home yet?
So any claims to me being pessimistic is nothing short of absolute bollocks and it shows you have absolutely no idea of the person that I am.
You just have no idea on philosophy.

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