Gaza - ISIS

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Gaza - ISIS

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:30 am

It was suggested that ISIS may start attacking Gaza and the Palestinian population.

If that were to happen should the West supply Arms, equipment and Aerial support to protect the population from being slaughtered by these evil gits or should they just stand by and witness it happening?

Thoughts....

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:48 am

If we had any plans to stop ISIS we would have already.

we don't want to, that is the conclusion I have reached based on the world events and response to ISIS.

Simply put their numbers and resources are less than Saddam they are less established and Saddam, we defeated Saddam in days in this exact terrain (unlike the notoriously impossible to control Afghanistan mountains).


If I were in control of Australia Armed forces i would have sent SAS and 'Archeological evacuators' to Palmyra and any Museums in the Path of ISIS.
take what is of value... for protections sake ....
(you guys all did it )

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:12 am

Irn Bru wrote:It was suggested that ISIS may start attacking Gaza and the Palestinian population.

If that were to happen should the West supply Arms, equipment and Aerial support to protect the population from being slaughtered by these evil gits or should they just stand by and witness it happening?

Thoughts....


There is a simple solution to this problem and one of the many reasons Hamas has been in talks with Israel in regards to signing a 5 year peace deal, as they fear the growing threat and support of ISIS within Gaza. Which they have helped create.

Anyhow first and foremost would be to evacuate the civilians into prepared camps in the Sinai and West bank. Both Israel and Egypt would have to open up a controlled opening to the borders to allow the movement to these prepared areas for all those wishing to temporary leave the area to safety until the conflict is over.

With the evacuation of the civilian population, the full force of the Israeli and Egyptian combined armed forces can be brought together with devastated effect against ISIS. A conventional invasion from all sides by both Israel and Egypt would be the most effective. Once defeated, Israel and Egypt with financial support from the world would then help build the infrastructure of Gaza with a UN peace keeping force in residence. The people are able to return and the UN are able to set up free elections for the people of Gaza. If Hamas chose to stay, well then you get the added bonus of taking out this terrorist group also, ensuring free elections later for the people of Gaza on their return.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:12 am

Why is ISIS evil? We seem to have missed a step.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:51 am

Original Quill wrote:Why is ISIS evil?  We seem to have missed a step.

Slavery
Rape
Genocide
Child sex abuse and rape
Discrimination.
Denial of equality.
Denial of freedom of expression
Torture
No legal rights for civillians

Do you wish mne to continue or do you believe we should just allow people to suffer when we can do something about it?

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:58 am

Cuchulain wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:It was suggested that ISIS may start attacking Gaza and the Palestinian population.

If that were to happen should the West supply Arms, equipment and Aerial support to protect the population from being slaughtered by these evil gits or should they just stand by and witness it happening?

Thoughts....


There is a simple solution to this problem and one of the many reasons Hamas has been in talks with Israel in regards to signing a 5 year peace deal, as they fear the growing threat and support of ISIS within Gaza. Which they have helped create.

Anyhow first and foremost would be to evacuate the civilians into prepared camps in the Sinai and West bank. Both Israel and Egypt would have to open up a controlled opening to the borders to allow the movement to these prepared areas for all those wishing to temporary leave the area to safety until the conflict is over.

With the evacuation of the civilian population, the full force of the Israeli and Egyptian combined armed forces can be brought together with devastated effect against ISIS. A conventional invasion from all sides by both Israel and Egypt would be the most effective. Once defeated, Israel and Egypt with financial support from the world would then help build the infrastructure of Gaza with a UN peace keeping force in residence. The people are able to return and the UN are able to set up free elections for the people of Gaza. If Hamas chose to stay, well then you get the added bonus of taking out this terrorist group also, ensuring free elections later for the people of Gaza on their return.

If you think that Israel are going to allow people from Gaza into the occupied West Bank then that is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Palestine is now considered a State in its own right by the UN under a unity PA government so they have every right to be involved in defending their homeland. And considering what is happening in Syria there is little evidence that any of what you say is a solution would actualy take place anyway. Your solution is anything but simple.

So, setting aside your solution, if that doesn't happen should the West supply Arms and equipment to Hamas to defend their population from being slaughtered by these evil creatures.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:03 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:


There is a simple solution to this problem and one of the many reasons Hamas has been in talks with Israel in regards to signing a 5 year peace deal, as they fear the growing threat and support of ISIS within Gaza. Which they have helped create.

Anyhow first and foremost would be to evacuate the civilians into prepared camps in the Sinai and West bank. Both Israel and Egypt would have to open up a controlled opening to the borders to allow the movement to these prepared areas for all those wishing to temporary leave the area to safety until the conflict is over.

With the evacuation of the civilian population, the full force of the Israeli and Egyptian combined armed forces can be brought together with devastated effect against ISIS. A conventional invasion from all sides by both Israel and Egypt would be the most effective. Once defeated, Israel and Egypt with financial support from the world would then help build the infrastructure of Gaza with a UN peace keeping force in residence. The people are able to return and the UN are able to set up free elections for the people of Gaza. If Hamas chose to stay, well then you get the added bonus of taking out this terrorist group also, ensuring free elections later for the people of Gaza on their return.

If you think that Israel are going to allow people from Gaza into the occupied West Bank then that is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Palestine is now considered a State in its own right by the UN under a unity PA government so they have every right to be involved in defending their homeland. And considering what is happening in Syria there is little evidence that any of what you say is a solution would actualy take place anyway. Your solution is anything but simple.

So, setting aside your solution, if that doesn't happen should the West supply Arms and equipment to Hamas to defend their population from being slaughtered by these evil creatures.


Not wishgful thinking at all.
They already have a plan to evacuate 1 million lebanese in the event of a furture war with Hezbollah.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/26744/Default.aspx

My solutrion is very simple which saves countless civillian lives and does not end up arming terrorists like Hamas.
In this instance both Hams and ISIS are caught in a pincer movement by the Israeli and Egyptian forces.
Gaza then actually be rebuilt where it is being denied this by Hamas who are on a continual war footing wasting the aid provided.
So my solution is best in saving civillian lives and wiping out two extremist terrorist groups, bringing peace to the region and then free elections to the people of Gaza. Youir idea is based on Hamas mentality, ensure maximum civillian casulaties.
I would evacuate them, you though want them in the middle of a civil war and then to arm terrorists.
One word to that
Daft

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:17 am

Cuchulain wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:


There is a simple solution to this problem and one of the many reasons Hamas has been in talks with Israel in regards to signing a 5 year peace deal, as they fear the growing threat and support of ISIS within Gaza. Which they have helped create.

Anyhow first and foremost would be to evacuate the civilians into prepared camps in the Sinai and West bank. Both Israel and Egypt would have to open up a controlled opening to the borders to allow the movement to these prepared areas for all those wishing to temporary leave the area to safety until the conflict is over.

With the evacuation of the civilian population, the full force of the Israeli and Egyptian combined armed forces can be brought together with devastated effect against ISIS. A conventional invasion from all sides by both Israel and Egypt would be the most effective. Once defeated, Israel and Egypt with financial support from the world would then help build the infrastructure of Gaza with a UN peace keeping force in residence. The people are able to return and the UN are able to set up free elections for the people of Gaza. If Hamas chose to stay, well then you get the added bonus of taking out this terrorist group also, ensuring free elections later for the people of Gaza on their return.

If you think that Israel are going to allow people from Gaza into the occupied West Bank then that is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Palestine is now considered a State in its own right by the UN under a unity PA government so they have every right to be involved in defending their homeland. And considering what is happening in Syria there is little evidence that any of what you say is a solution would actualy take place anyway. Your solution is anything but simple.

So, setting aside your solution, if that doesn't happen should the West supply Arms and equipment to Hamas to defend their population from being slaughtered by these evil creatures.


Not wishgful thinking at all.
They already have a plan to evacuate 1 million lebanese in the event of a furture war with Hezbollah.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/26744/Default.aspx

My solutrion is very simple which saves countless civillian lives and does not end up arming terrorists like Hamas.
In this instance both Hams and ISIS are caught in a pincer movement by the Israeliu and Eygptian forces.
Gaza then actually be rebuilt where it is being denied this by Hamas who are on a continual war footing wasting the aid provided.
So my solution is best in saving civillian lives and wiping out two extremist terrorist groups, bringing peace to the region and then free elections to the people of Gaza. Youir idea is based on Hamas mentality, ensure maximum civillian casulaties.
I would evacuate them, you though want them in the middle of a civil war and then to arm terrorists.
One word to that
Daft

So almost an entire population get moved out of Gaza for it to be occupied by a joint military force consisting of Egyptian and Isreali forces to beat off ISIS with the PA and Hamas playing no part in doing that? Israel are not going to allow Palestinians into the West Bank for a start and it's daft to believe they will.

The PA and Hamas every right to be involved in defending what is rightfuly considered their homeland state by the UN so why shouldn't they be supplied with the equipment they would need to defend what is considered by the UN to be their homeland.

So if your solution isn't adopted by those who you say would be involved in doing it should the PA unity government and Hamas be given the Arms and equipment to defend their homeland from the slaughter that would happen under ISIS?

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:24 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:


Not wishgful thinking at all.
They already have a plan to evacuate 1 million lebanese in the event of a furture war with Hezbollah.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/26744/Default.aspx

My solutrion is very simple which saves countless civillian lives and does not end up arming terrorists like Hamas.
In this instance both Hams and ISIS are caught in a pincer movement by the Israeliu and Eygptian forces.
Gaza then actually be rebuilt where it is being denied this by Hamas who are on a continual war footing wasting the aid provided.
So my solution is best in saving civillian lives and wiping out two extremist terrorist groups, bringing peace to the region and then free elections to the people of Gaza. Youir idea is based on Hamas mentality, ensure maximum civillian casulaties.
I would evacuate them, you though want them in the middle of a civil war and then to arm terrorists.
One word to that
Daft

So almost an entire population get moved out of Gaza for it to be occupied by a joint military force consisting of Egyptian and Isreali forces to beat off ISIS with the PA and Hamas playing no part in doing that? Israel are not going to allow Palestinians into the West Bank for a start and it's daft to believe they will.

The PA and Hamas every right to be involved in defending what is rightfuly considered their homeland state by the UN so why shouldn't they be supplied with the equipment they would need to defend what is considered by the UN to be their homeland.

So if your solution isn't adopted by those who you say would be involved in doing it should the PA unity government and Hamas be given the Arms and equipment to defend their homeland from the slaughter that would happen under ISIS?



Again you keep making claims you cannot back up and are based on your hate of Israel and not any care or compassion for the people of Gaza.
Again you have no response to them moving into the Sinai into camps prepared. As seen Israel has a contgency plan to move civillians, so your claims are babble.
Hamas has no right to be involved, they are a terrorist organisation. The aim would be also to destroy this organisation too if they choose to stay and fight.
If the PA wishes to colloborate with Israel and Egypt, that is fine also.
Again it seems you wish to keep the civillians trapped within Gaza and thus prime cannon fodder for such a conflict.
Hamas are not recognised by many nations, so why are you even attempting to recognise a terrorist organisation?
It proves how you are a defender of terrorist.
At least my way gives a chance of forward peace and democracy for Gaza, instead of the Theocracy they presently live under where there is no chance of any elections.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:42 am

Cuchulain wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:


Not wishgful thinking at all.
They already have a plan to evacuate 1 million lebanese in the event of a furture war with Hezbollah.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/26744/Default.aspx

My solutrion is very simple which saves countless civillian lives and does not end up arming terrorists like Hamas.
In this instance both Hams and ISIS are caught in a pincer movement by the Israeliu and Eygptian forces.
Gaza then actually be rebuilt where it is being denied this by Hamas who are on a continual war footing wasting the aid provided.
So my solution is best in saving civillian lives and wiping out two extremist terrorist groups, bringing peace to the region and then free elections to the people of Gaza. Youir idea is based on Hamas mentality, ensure maximum civillian casulaties.
I would evacuate them, you though want them in the middle of a civil war and then to arm terrorists.
One word to that
Daft

So almost an entire population get moved out of Gaza for it to be occupied by a joint military force consisting of Egyptian and Isreali forces to beat off ISIS with the PA and Hamas playing no part in doing that? Israel are not going to allow Palestinians into the West Bank for a start and it's daft to believe they will.

The PA and Hamas every right to be involved in defending what is rightfuly considered their homeland state by the UN so why shouldn't they be supplied with the equipment they would need to defend what is considered by the UN to be their homeland.

So if your solution isn't adopted by those who you say would be involved in doing it should the PA unity government and Hamas be given the Arms and equipment to defend their homeland from the slaughter that would happen under ISIS?



Again you keep making claims you cannot back up and are based on your hate of Israel and not any care or compassion for the people of Gaza.
Again you have no response to them moving into the Sinai into camps prepared. As seen Israel has a contgency plan to move civillians, so your claims are babble.
Hamas has no right to be involved, they are a terrorist organisation. The aim would be also to destroy this organisation too if they choose to stay and fight.
If the PA wishes to colloborate with Israel and Egypt, that is fine also.
Again it seems you wish to keep the civillians trapped within Gaza and thus prime cannon fodder for such a conflict.
Hamas are not recognised by many nations, so why are you even attempting to recognise a terrorist organisation?
It proves how you are a defender of terrorist.
At least my way gives a chance of forward peace and democracy for Gaza, instead of the Theocracy they presently live under where there is no chance of any elections.

You are the one making claims you can't back simply by saying their is a simple solution to all this when their isn't. The population of Gaza are not going to be decanted anywhere and it's unrealistic to believe that they will under some agreement between Egypt and Israel. I just believe that what you are suggesting as a solution just isn't going to happen and if it doesn't happen then what next - that's all I'm asking.

So again, if your solution isn't adopted would you just leave the PA government and Hamas to fight off ISIS without any support from the West in the way of Arms and equipment?

And why is there no such agreement in place between Israel and Egypt to step in and provide some miitary support in the way of troops on the ground to defend the population currently under threat from ISIS in Syria when they're almost on the border of Israel itself.




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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:49 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:



Again you keep making claims you cannot back up and are based on your hate of Israel and not any care or compassion for the people of Gaza.
Again you have no response to them moving into the Sinai into camps prepared. As seen Israel has a contgency plan to move civillians, so your claims are babble.
Hamas has no right to be involved, they are a terrorist organisation. The aim would be also to destroy this organisation too if they choose to stay and fight.
If the PA wishes to colloborate with Israel and Egypt, that is fine also.
Again it seems you wish to keep the civillians trapped within Gaza and thus prime cannon fodder for such a conflict.
Hamas are not recognised by many nations, so why are you even attempting to recognise a terrorist organisation?
It proves how you are a defender of terrorist.
At least my way gives a chance of forward peace and democracy for Gaza, instead of the Theocracy they presently live under where there is no chance of any elections.

You are the one making claims you can't back simply by saying their is a simple solution to all this when their isn't. The population of Gaza are not going to be decanted anywhere and it's unrealistic to believe that they will under some agreement between Egypt and Israel. I just believe that what you are suggesting as a solution just isn't going to happen and if it doesn't happen then what next - that's all I'm asking.

So again, if your solution isn't adopted would you just leave the PA government and Hamas to fight off ISIS without any support from the West in the way of Arms and equipment?

And why is there no such agreement in place between Israel and Egypt to step in and provide some miitary support in the way of troops on the ground to defend the population currently under threat from ISIS in Syria when they're almost on the border of Israel itself.




There is a simple solution. You just do not like doing what is best for the people of Gaza because you are so blinded by hate for Israel.
I mean I cannot believe you think its best to keep civillians within a conflict zone. That is just plain stupid and in many cases they will try to evacuate as has happened in Iraq. Or has this escaped your attention?
I do not care what you think or believe, I have given you the best option and you do not like it as it will save the most civillian lives, which is really odd. You think you would go with the plan that saves most lives and you do not..
As to your question on the PA Goverment, they have now no control again in Gaza.
If they do not want my idea, we still evacuate the civillian s and allow two terrorist groups to fight it out between themselves. Nobody is going to care in this instance and it will destroy one and greatly weaken the other, making it very easy to take them out.
Egypt has talked about Israel being given the green light to do something.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/197596

Egypt has no say in Syria, so that is a daft view again.



In regards to PA and Hamas

http://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-determined-to-curb-hamas-resistance-in-west-bank/#!

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_opinion.php?id=13077

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:59 am

Cuchulain wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:



Again you keep making claims you cannot back up and are based on your hate of Israel and not any care or compassion for the people of Gaza.
Again you have no response to them moving into the Sinai into camps prepared. As seen Israel has a contgency plan to move civillians, so your claims are babble.
Hamas has no right to be involved, they are a terrorist organisation. The aim would be also to destroy this organisation too if they choose to stay and fight.
If the PA wishes to colloborate with Israel and Egypt, that is fine also.
Again it seems you wish to keep the civillians trapped within Gaza and thus prime cannon fodder for such a conflict.
Hamas are not recognised by many nations, so why are you even attempting to recognise a terrorist organisation?
It proves how you are a defender of terrorist.
At least my way gives a chance of forward peace and democracy for Gaza, instead of the Theocracy they presently live under where there is no chance of any elections.

You are the one making claims you can't back simply by saying their is a simple solution to all this when their isn't. The population of Gaza are not going to be decanted anywhere and it's unrealistic to believe that they will under some agreement between Egypt and Israel. I just believe that what you are suggesting as a solution just isn't going to happen and if it doesn't happen then what next - that's all I'm asking.

So again, if your solution isn't adopted would you just leave the PA government and Hamas to fight off ISIS without any support from the West in the way of Arms and equipment?

And why is there no such agreement in place between Israel and Egypt to step in and provide some miitary support in the way of troops on the ground to defend the population currently under threat from ISIS in Syria when they're almost on the border of Israel itself.




There is a simple solution. You just do not like doing what is best for the people of Gaza because you are so blinded by hate for Israel.
I mean I cannot believe you think its best to keep civillians within a conflict zone. That is just plain stupid and in many cases they will try to evacuate as has happened in Iraq. Or has this escaped your attention?
I do not care what you think or believe, I have given you the best option and you do not like it as it will save the most civillian lives, which is really odd. You think you would go with the plan that saves most lives and you do not..
As to your question on the PA Goverment, they have now no control again in Gaza.
If they do not want my idea, we still evacuate the civillian s and allow two terrorist groups to fight it out between themselves. Nobody is going to care in this instance and it will destroy one and greatly weaken the other, making it very easy to take them out.
Egypt has talked about Israel being given the green light to do something.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/197596

Egypt has no say in Syria, so that is a daft view again.

Your solution is anything but simple. And for some reason you just won't even consider answering the question about arming the unity PA government and Hamas to defend their state rightfuly attributed to them by the UN.

Egypt has no say in Syria you say but for some reason you believe they have a say in Palestine which is now a state in it's own right.

So if your solution isn't adopted then you would rather the population of Gaza just be left to be slaughterd by these evil creatures?

And terrorist groups are already fighting it out between themselves in Syria where the Kurds are beating off ISIS with support from the West. So if support is given there then why not to the PA and Hamas to defend their homeland?

_________________
The conservative feels safe and content only if he is assured that some higher wisdom watches and supervises change, only if he knows that some authority is charged with keeping the change "orderly.

Friedrich Hayek

In other words a bunch of cap-doffers and forelock tuggers.
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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:04 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

There is a simple solution. You just do not like doing what is best for the people of Gaza because you are so blinded by hate for Israel.
I mean I cannot believe you think its best to keep civillians within a conflict zone. That is just plain stupid and in many cases they will try to evacuate as has happened in Iraq. Or has this escaped your attention?
I do not care what you think or believe, I have given you the best option and you do not like it as it will save the most civillian lives, which is really odd. You think you would go with the plan that saves most lives and you do not..
As to your question on the PA Goverment, they have now no control again in Gaza.
If they do not want my idea, we still evacuate the civillian s and allow two terrorist groups to fight it out between themselves. Nobody is going to care in this instance and it will destroy one and greatly weaken the other, making it very easy to take them out.
Egypt has talked about Israel being given the green light to do something.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/197596

Egypt has no say in Syria, so that is a daft view again.

Your solution is anything but simple. And for some reason you just won't even consider answering the question about arming the unity PA government and Hamas to defend their state rightfuly attributed to them by the UN.

Egypt has no say in Syria you say but for some reason you believe they have a say in Palestine which is now a state in it's own right.

So if your solution isn't adopted then you would rather the population of Gaza just be left to be slaughterd by these evil creatures?

And terrorist groups are already fighting it out between themselves in Syria where the Kurds are beating off ISIS with support from the West.  So if support is given there then why not to the PA and Hamas to defend their homeland?

For one its not mt fault you are unable to see the simplicity of the plan.
Again your hate is clouding your ability to think rationally here.
Again the PA has no control in Gaza and Hamas are not going to want them to have any.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Nor sure how many times this needs explaning.
Again if the people of gaza and the PA want to join forces with Israel and Egypt, then they are free to do so.
Hamas though cannot join unless they renounce their charter and agree to recognize Israel
The Kurds are not what I would class as terrorist. They maybe in Turkey, but then Turkey is run by a dictator.
The problem has arisen and made worse in Syria for arming terrorist groups, the point you miss.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:10 am

I mean what better way to help achieve unity between both the Palestinians and Israeli's with a Coalition force made up of the IDF and volunteers from Gaza and the West Bank, both working together to defeat two common enemies in ISIS and hamas.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:30 am

Cuchulain wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

There is a simple solution. You just do not like doing what is best for the people of Gaza because you are so blinded by hate for Israel.
I mean I cannot believe you think its best to keep civillians within a conflict zone. That is just plain stupid and in many cases they will try to evacuate as has happened in Iraq. Or has this escaped your attention?
I do not care what you think or believe, I have given you the best option and you do not like it as it will save the most civillian lives, which is really odd. You think you would go with the plan that saves most lives and you do not..
As to your question on the PA Goverment, they have now no control again in Gaza.
If they do not want my idea, we still evacuate the civillian s and allow two terrorist groups to fight it out between themselves. Nobody is going to care in this instance and it will destroy one and greatly weaken the other, making it very easy to take them out.
Egypt has talked about Israel being given the green light to do something.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/197596

Egypt has no say in Syria, so that is a daft view again.

Your solution is anything but simple. And for some reason you just won't even consider answering the question about arming the unity PA government and Hamas to defend their state rightfuly attributed to them by the UN.

Egypt has no say in Syria you say but for some reason you believe they have a say in Palestine which is now a state in it's own right.

So if your solution isn't adopted then you would rather the population of Gaza just be left to be slaughterd by these evil creatures?

And terrorist groups are already fighting it out between themselves in Syria where the Kurds are beating off ISIS with support from the West.  So if support is given there then why not to the PA and Hamas to defend their homeland?

For one its not mt fault you are unable to see the simplicity of the plan.
Again your hate is clouding your ability to think rationally here.
Again the PA has no control in Gaza and Hamas are not going to want them to have any.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Nor sure how many times this needs explaning.
Again if the people of gaza and the PA want to join forces with Israel and Egypt, then they are free to do so.
Hamas though cannot join unless they renounce their charter and agree to recognize Israel
The Kurds are not what I would class as terrorist. They maybe in Turkey, but then Turkey is run by a dictator.
The problem has arisen and made worse in Syria for arming terrorist groups, the point you miss.

Your plan is simple on paper but unrealistic and I believe unlikely to happen.

And of course the PA and and Hamas are free to defend their homeland rightfully attributed to them by the UN and if Egypt and Israel want to support them in doing that then that's fine but they need to Arms to do so and they should be given them just as the Kurds are in Syria. And of course Israel do not recognise Palestine as a State.

The Kurds are a terrorist organisation but even then I support them being given the equipment they need to fight off this evil regime just as I believe the PA and Hamas should as well.

The Hamas charter has never featured in any of their publicatons or manifesto for years and the only people that keep bringing it up are people like you while blissfuly ignoring the Lukid Party platform that staes that all of Eretz Isreal is theirs basically because the bible told them so.

Your last sentence above suggests we should not be providing Arms and equipment to the Kurds then?

Right, I have to go for a while with taxes to pay etc and work to be done so I'll read your response later.


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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:44 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

For one its not mt fault you are unable to see the simplicity of the plan.
Again your hate is clouding your ability to think rationally here.
Again the PA has no control in Gaza and Hamas are not going to want them to have any.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Nor sure how many times this needs explaning.
Again if the people of gaza and the PA want to join forces with Israel and Egypt, then they are free to do so.
Hamas though cannot join unless they renounce their charter and agree to recognize Israel
The Kurds are not what I would class as terrorist. They maybe in Turkey, but then Turkey is run by a dictator.
The problem has arisen and made worse in Syria for arming terrorist groups, the point you miss.

Your plan is simple on paper but unrealistic and I believe unlikely to happen.
Hearsay and off no valid reason as to why
And of course the PA and and Hamas are free to defend their homeland rightfully attributed to them by the UN and if Egypt and Israel want to support them in doing that then that's fine but they need to Arms to do so and they should be given them just as the Kurds are in Syria. And of course Israel do not recognise Palestine as a State.
The UN is not fit for purpose, when it allows human rights abusers on its council. So to use them as a green light for recognition, when both Hamas and the PA have spurned the chance for peace many times is invalid.
The Kurds are a terrorist organisation but even then I support them being given the equipment they need to fight off this evil regime just as I believe the PA and Hamas should as well.
The Hamas charter has never featured in any of their publicatons or manifesto for years and the only people that keep bringing it up are people like you while blissfuly ignoring the Lukid Party platform that staes that all of Eretz Isreal is theirs basically because the bible told them so.
And yet it has never been rescinded and yet further proof your are an islamic extremist apologist. You just have not the guts to admit that you are. At every turn there is nothing stopping Hamas today renouncing vilolence against Israel and giving up its rockets as a sign of good will. They never have and never will because they do not and will not accept the right of Israel to exists.
I do not back any religious bable to claim over lands, so that is yet another deflection from the fact Hamas wants no lasting peace with Israel 

Your last sentence above suggests we should not be providing Arms and equipment to the Kurds then?

Right, I have to go for a while with taxes to pay etc and work to be done so I'll read your response later.


I am happy we give arms to the Kurds. I do not see the Kurds in Iraq and Syria as terrorists. In fact it is in Turkey they are deemed terroists and are no longer deemed terrorists by the west. So you have no point again
They believe in secularism.
Where we went wrong was providing arms to many groups where they ended up in the arms or ISIS and AL-Qaeda.

At least we now see you support an Islamic terrorist group in Hamas, who have not allowed a single election since they gained power. Rule by thoecracy, denying equality. You seem to be making a case of the lesser of two evils, well both need to be destroyed, not aid one of them as you wish to do so. Only an apologist to theocracy would advocate such a policy.

Anyway, you are refusing to accept the best plan here which will saves the most civillian lives and you are just going over the same lame points just proposing to me that others should support Hamas like you do.
Not a chance, they follow the same extreme ideology of ISIS. The only difference is that ISIS commits more attrocities.
So lets have something new in your argumentg as you are just going around in circles.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:59 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Why is ISIS evil?  We seem to have missed a step.

Slavery
Rape
Genocide
Child sex abuse and rape
Discrimination.
Denial of equality.
Denial of freedom of expression
Torture
No legal rights for civillians

Do you wish mne to continue or do you believe we should just allow people to suffer when we can do something about it?

Well, there’s a civil war going on.  Genocide, discrimination, inequality, loss of free speech, lack of human rights and even torture are typical in such wars.  Look at Burma.  Look at East Timor.  

The US and Britain engaged in some of those things during the Iraqi war of 2003-13.  I have no doubt the US and Britain would return to such practices should they involve themselves.  It’s a war, folks…hotly contested, with anger on both sides.

Neither the US nor Britain have an interest in the Middle East’s war.  The existing government of Iraq is Shi’ia and is backed by Iran, with whom we have hostilities.  ISIS is Sunni, with whom we also have hostilities.  On both the theory that my enemy’s enemy is my friend, and the theory that my enemy’s friend is my enemy, we should let them carry on their war without interference.

Or, more simply put, we have no purpose in getting involved.  Indeed, from the looks of it, if we simply stand back, things will turn out to our liking.  Just get out of the way.

Let the vase drop; we didn’t like it anyway.


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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by sassy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:08 pm

It seems to me Quill that you don't seem to understand exactly what IS is or what it is doing.   It's level of depravity exceeds anything that we have met for a long time.

Sickening new ISIS video shows caged prisoners lowered into a swimming pool and drowned, shot with an RPG and blown up with explosive-filled 'necklaces'

   Sickening seven-minute video shows the deaths of several ISIS prisoners
   Five men are filmed being drowned in a pool in the ISIS stronghold Mosul
   Underwater cameras capture them thrashing before falling unconscious
   Another group are shot with a grenade launcher while locked in an old car
   Final sequence shows seven prisoners being chained together with explosive necklaces, which are then detonated


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3135913/Sickening-new-ISIS-video-shows-caged-prisoners-lowered-swimming-pool-drowned-shot-RPG-blown-explosive-filled-necklaces.html#ixzz3fDbUxrf6
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Another one shows a line of men with a continuous steel chain looped round each of their necks, the ends attached to cars that drive off in opposite directions and decapitate them.

And if you honestly think that ignoring IS will make it go away, you are seriously deluding yourself. I'm not one for intervention, but this is not a 'country', it is a group of lunatics that are spreading far and wide and are not confined to any area.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by sassy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:13 pm

Tell me Didge, if Israel was being attacked by them, would you expect Israeli's to meekly vacate Israel and allow another country to defend it's land?

Why don't you expect Kurds to move to refugee camps and let someone else fight for them?

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:20 pm

Sassy wrote:And if you honestly think that ignoring IS will make it go away, you are seriously deluding yourself. I'm not one for intervention, but this is not a 'country', it is a group of lunatics that are spreading far and wide and are not confined to any area.

I'm saying, it's not our problem. If we have a group of lunatics running around killing and torturing, eventually people will put a stop to it themselves.

If we interfere, we interrupt the natural occurrence of a solution.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:22 pm

sassy wrote:Tell me Didge, if Israel was being attacked by them, would you expect Israeli's to meekly vacate Israel and allow another country to defend it's land?

Why don't you expect Kurds to move to refugee camps and let someone else fight for them?

Different tactical situation altogether.
Gaza is a very small area. It makes sense to move all civillians out of the area as a temp measure. Otherwise you just have mass casulaties in an up and coming conflict. Neither Irn or yourself can think straight on this. I am placing the safety of the civillians first. If they remain whilst there is a civil war coming, then many will die. By freeing the area of civillians then you do not have to worry about civillian casulties.
Its a no brainer except to the extreme left of course.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by sassy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:22 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Sassy wrote:And if you honestly think that ignoring IS will make it go away, you are seriously deluding yourself. I'm not one for intervention, but this is not a 'country', it is a group of lunatics that are spreading far and wide and are not confined to any area.

I'm saying, it's not our problem.  If we have a group of lunatics running around killing and torturing, eventually people will put a stop to it themselves.

If we interfere, we interrupt the natural occurrence of a solution.

Oh my word, how silly is that! I'm not even going to bother to go into why it is so silly, because I bet most people on here know, even if it's gone over the top of your head.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:25 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Slavery
Rape
Genocide
Child sex abuse and rape
Discrimination.
Denial of equality.
Denial of freedom of expression
Torture
No legal rights for civillians

Do you wish mne to continue or do you believe we should just allow people to suffer when we can do something about it?

Well, there’s a civil war going on.  Genocide, discrimination, inequality, loss of free speech, lack of human rights and even torture are typical in such wars.  Look at Burma.  Look at East Timor.  

The US and Britain engaged in some of those things during the Iraqi war of 2003-13.  I have no doubt the US and Britain would return to such practices should they involve themselves.  It’s a war, folks…hotly contested, with anger on both sides.

Neither the US nor Britain have an interest in the Middle East’s war.  The existing government of Iraq is Shi’ia and is backed by Iran, with whom we have hostilities.  ISIS is Sunni, with whom we also have hostilities.  On both the theory that my enemy’s enemy is my friend, and the theory that my enemy’s friend is my enemy, we should let them carry on their war without interference.

Or, more simply put, we have no purpose in getting involved.  Indeed, from the looks of it, if we simply stand back, things will turn out to our liking.  Just get out of the way.

Let the vase drop; we didn’t like it anyway.


Look we get the fact you are a wimp and a pussy. The reality is people do not want to sit back while other people are being butchered.
We are one human race and we are all connected by this race. The world is connected through its economy also, so anything that happens effects all nations throughout the world.
Your strategy is one that will wait until its too late and then the enemy you face will be way too string, because you wanted to shit your pants and not help your fellow human beings based on the fact you were lucky enough to be born onto a land you did nothing to create the wealth of or its advancements. The fact that America is a multicultural nation shows how far removed your view is.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:28 pm

sassy wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I'm saying, it's not our problem.  If we have a group of lunatics running around killing and torturing, eventually people will put a stop to it themselves.

If we interfere, we interrupt the natural occurrence of a solution.

Oh my word, how silly is that!   I'm not even going to bother to go into why it is so silly, because I bet most people on here know, even if it's gone over the top of your head.

Or, perhaps it hasn't gone over my head.  Perhaps doing nothing is the answer.

Lord knows, if we go in there, we go into a quagmire and we don't know what we are doing.  We have no endgame.  We don't know where to turn.  We have no idea what they want.

It's not that it flies over my head.  It flies over everyone's head that we don't have an answer.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:31 pm

Original Quill wrote:
sassy wrote:

Oh my word, how silly is that!   I'm not even going to bother to go into why it is so silly, because I bet most people on here know, even if it's gone over the top of your head.

Or, perhaps it hasn't gone over my head.  Perhaps doing nothing is the answer.

Lord knows, if we go in there, we go into a quagmire and we don't know what we are doing.  We have no endgame.  We don't know what we are doing.  We have no idea what they want.

It's not that it flies over my head.  It flies over everyone's head that we don't have an answer.

You show me any methodology that proposes doing nothing to resolve a problem?
What you porpose is the most selfish argument. That because you are safe and sound, that nobody should do anything to help. You are lucky to be born into a nation where you do not face such a threat. The natural and most rational thing to do with a real threat is to eradicate that problem./ Not ignore that problem as that will lead to that problem getting out of control.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by sassy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:
sassy wrote:

Oh my word, how silly is that!   I'm not even going to bother to go into why it is so silly, because I bet most people on here know, even if it's gone over the top of your head.

Or, perhaps it hasn't gone over my head.  Perhaps doing nothing is the answer.

Lord knows, if we go in there, we go into a quagmire and we don't know what we are doing.  We have no endgame.  We don't know where to turn.  We have no idea what they want.

It's not that it flies over my head.  It flies over everyone's head that we don't have an answer.

No Quill, it has gone way over your head, and most people who know IS is probably the biggest threat, not just in the ME but in Europe and eventually USA, will read your replies and raise their eyebrows in exasperation of your inability to understand the threat of madmen who have built up a very rich, very powerful terror machine and are intent on using it everywhere.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:01 pm

All I'm saying is, have a plan.  Republicans and Tories greet adversity by blowing shit up.  They want to intervene in something, and inevitably they go in with guns ablazing, lots of explosions and a trail of blood and dead bodies.  Then they put a banner up:


Then what?  At that point, the only mission is to get the fuck outta there.

And the same thing happens all over again.  You've accomplished nothing.  Lots of people are dead.  Lots of cities in ruins.  People in refugee camps, and the like.  And a new movement brewing, not ISIS, but some other acronym that means the civil war goes on.  Another crisis, with more genocide and deaths, blood and gore, and lost children wandering the streets.

I'm saying, y'all are no better than Republicans and Tories.  Y'all have a do-good urge-of-purpose, but you have no real idea of what to do.  You revert to the primitive Republican/Tory bowel urge...go blow shit up.

I'm offering an alternative: Do nothing, and you will accomplish much more.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:00 pm

No by doing nothing you allow something which can be contained and destroyed to become stronger and then become far more difficult to contian and destroy.
Like I said, show me any methodology that proposes doing nothing to resolve a problem?

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:14 pm

Cuchulain wrote:No by doing nothing you allow something which can be contained and destroyed to become stronger and then become far more difficult to contian and destroy.
Like I said, show me any methodology that proposes doing nothing to resolve a problem?

Haha..."take two aspirin and call me in the morning."  Oldest wisdom in the book.

Ok, I've been explicit with my plan.  What is your plan?  Be specific.  How to use the aircraft?  Will boots be on the ground?  Drones?  Forward spotters for aerial bombing?  Which cities will you take first?  When will you know you have been successful?  What measures will you leave in place after you leave?

Then the endgame.  Which government will you leave in charge in Iraq?  Which in Syria?  How will you resolve the Shi'ite/Sunni civil war?  Will any government, in either nation, favor one side of the other?  How will you deal with militant Islam?  Will you allow the Egyptian course...a slow creep to theocracy?  What will you do about Iran?  Will you allow Israel to settle the occupied lands?  Gaza?

Either you have a plan for all of these, or de facto you are following my plan...do nothing.  Of course, you could just go in and blow shit up and leave.  That's the Republican/Tory answer.  But strangely, that only feels good.  You don't leave things any better.  The people there will just begin with the atrocities all over again when you leave.

And by the way, what makes you smarter than them anyway?

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:No by doing nothing you allow something which can be contained and destroyed to become stronger and then become far more difficult to contian and destroy.
Like I said, show me any methodology that proposes doing nothing to resolve a problem?

Haha..."take two aspirin and call me in the morning."  Oldest wisdom in the book.

Ok, I've been explicit with my plan.  What is your plan?  Be specific.  How to use the aircraft?  Will boots be on the ground?  Drones?  Forward spotters for aerial bombing?  Which cities will you take first?  When will you know you have been successful?  What measures will you leave in place after you leave?

Then the endgame.  Which government will you leave in charge in Iraq?  Which in Syria?  How will you resolve the Shi'ite/Sunni civil war?  Will any government, in either nation, favor one side of the other?  How will you deal with militant Islam?  Will you allow the Egyptian course...a slow creep to theocracy?  What will you do about Iran?  Will you allow Israel to settle the occupied lands?  Gaza?

Either you have a plan for all of these, or de facto you are following my plan...do nothing.  Of course, you could just go in and blow shit up and leave.  That's the Republican/Tory answer.  But strangely, that only feels good.  You don't leave things any better.  The people there will just begin with the atrocities all over again when you leave.

And by the way, what makes you smarter than them anyway?


You have not answered the question:

show me any methodology that proposes doing nothing to resolve a problem?
I have many plans, did you not read the one on here?
We are talking about Gaza today not Iraq. In Iraq you allow the people to elect someone who is not going to sideline others because of their faiths.
Quill you know as well as I do their is no methodology that proposes doing nothing to solve a problem.
Hence your plan is moot, which as see seen will only lead to a far bigger problem.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by eddie on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:02 pm

Not sure "doing nothing" ever achieved anything?

Quill what exactly do you mean by "nothing"?

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:06 pm

Didge wrote:You have not answered the question:

show me any methodology that proposes doing nothing to resolve a problem?

Not robbing a bank when you are poor and your children are starving.

Not going into road rage when someone cuts you off on the freeway.

Not whipping your infant child for coloring on the walls.

Not punching a wall when you are angry.

Letting a sore heal itself.

Letting a broken leg mend.

Letting a remote forest fire burn.

Not starting an endless war with no way out.

Didge wrote:I have many plans, did you not read the one on here?
We are talking about Gaza today not Iraq. In Iraq you allow the people to elect someone who is not going to sideline others because of their faiths.

We are talking about ISIS, and the futility of the west going into yet another fruitless war, with no purpose and no endgame.  Don’t duck the issue by hiding in a corner.

Didge wrote:Quill you know as well as I do their is no methodology that proposes doing nothing to solve a problem.
Hence your plan is moot, which as see seen will only lead to a far bigger problem.

We don’t have a problem.  ISIS is no threat to the US, and certainly no threat that requires a military response.

Face it didge, you have no plan that provides a way to win against the endless parade of foes in the Middle East, nor a vision of how things will be after your efforts, nor least of all, that permanently settles the civil war in Islam.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:15 pm

eddie wrote:Not sure "doing nothing" ever achieved anything?

Quill what exactly do you mean by "nothing"?

Re-frame the question: What do you (or anyone) mean by doing something?

Go in a blow shit up? That worked real well the last two wars, didn't it? How'd that work out in Viet Nam? Granada? Somolia? Kosovo?

You've got to keep in mind that anything you try to do is either part of the solution or part of the problem. If you suggest blowing shit up, you're going to kill babies, mothers, leave families destitute, leave whole nations without order, in chaos, and perhaps even worse off.

What do you mean by doing something? Give us a purpose. Give us a plan.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:23 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:You have not answered the question:

show me any methodology that proposes doing nothing to resolve a problem?

Not robbing a bank when you are poor and your children are starving.
That does not resolve the problem of hunger, they will then startve to death unless you do something. Problem is not solved

Not going into road rage when someone cuts you off on the freeway.
There is no problem to start with, as you are the problem if you have got angry, thus you did do something to avert allowing your anger to get the better of you. That was doing something

Not whipping your infant child for coloring on the walls.
Absurd and again you still need to resolve the problem, you have not done that with the colouring of the walls
Not punching a wall when you are angry.
There are better methods how to clam someone who is angry, it still takes something to be done
Letting a sore heal itself.
That is not doing nothing, you have to relax and rest

Letting a broken leg mend.
Same as above and you may if you do not seek medical help face your leg going gangrene.

Letting a remote forest fire burn.
That then is allowing wildlife to suffer and is still a problem

Not starting an endless war with no way out.
You cannot predict there is no way out

Didge wrote:I have many plans, did you not read the one on here?
We are talking about Gaza today not Iraq. In Iraq you allow the people to elect someone who is not going to sideline others because of their faiths.

We are talking about ISIS, and the futility of the west going into yet another fruitless war, with no purpose and no endgame.  Don’t duck the issue by hiding in a corner.

Didge wrote:Quill you know as well as I do their is no methodology that proposes doing nothing to solve a problem.
Hence your plan is moot, which as see seen will only lead to a far bigger problem.

We don’t have a problem.  ISIS is no threat to the US, and certainly no threat that requires a military response.

Face it didge, you have no plan that provides a way to win against the endless parade of foes in the Middle East, nor a vision of how things will be after your efforts, nor least of all, that permanently settles the civil war in Islam.



So you have failed to find one methodology.
In fact you did not even present a methodlogy, but examples of doing nothing.
Do you understand what a method is?
I have given a plan above in regards to Gaza.

Now either ansxwer the questions or jog on Quill to another thread as you are just wasting my time with drivel again

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:29 pm

Now Quill I am happy for you to go over my strategy over the issue of Gaza, but stop coming out with poor claims to not doing anything, they are abusrd and selfish, from a position you were lucky to be born into.

Now I hope you have a good evening, as I have things to do

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:34 pm

I have given you half-a-dozen methods in which doing nothing helps and/or cures.

Now the logic of positivism means the one proposing action must explain his actions. What would you do?

I've given you a road-map of all of the problems and pitfalls. Fix them. Give us answers. I'll give you ten years (we've already spent 15-years on the problem). Put down on paper how you would fix it in ten years.

And in passing, why don't you tell us why? What's in it for us?

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:38 pm

Cuchulain wrote:Now Quill I am happy for you to go over my strategy over the issue of Gaza, but stop coming out with poor claims to not doing anything, they are abusrd and selfish, from a position you were lucky to be born into.

I accept your offer of a strategy.  I want to hear how we can fix it all in one stroke.

Then tell me why.


Last edited by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:42 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:39 pm

No as seen you did not provide any methodology.
You gave examples of doing nothing which did not resolve any of the problems.

Now either address my strategy on Gaza or do not bother, to be honest I get bored of these refusals to engage the points at hand.

So the ball is in your court, but you showed no methodology at all..


I really have to go and as I say your point just attempts to ignore a problem, hoping it will go away. Sorry to burst your bubble, it won;t

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:55 pm

Cuchulain wrote:No as seen you did not provide any methodology.
You gave examples of doing nothing which did not resolve any of the problems.

That's what you asked for.

Cuchulain wrote:Now either address my strategy on Gaza or do not bother, to be honest I get bored of these refusals to engage the points at hand.

You are being silly, didge. Not like you. You're a rhetorician, but sometimes you have a point or two. Here, you have nothing and you are stalling.

Well, I console myself with the fact that we in the US are going to do nothing at all in the Middle East. That's the benefit of a position of benign neglect. Congress--which has constitutional war-making powers--is locked in an impasse, and the administration of the US is of a like mind to me...it's not our problem.

So, it's all academic. Been fun, tho...helps pass the time.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:57 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:It was suggested that ISIS may start attacking Gaza and the Palestinian population.

If that were to happen should the West supply Arms, equipment and Aerial support to protect the population from being slaughtered by these evil gits or should they just stand by and witness it happening?

Thoughts....


There is a simple solution to this problem and one of the many reasons Hamas has been in talks with Israel in regards to signing a 5 year peace deal, as they fear the growing threat and support of ISIS within Gaza. Which they have helped create.

Anyhow first and foremost would be to evacuate the civilians into prepared camps in the Sinai and West bank. Both Israel and Egypt would have to open up a controlled opening to the borders to allow the movement to these prepared areas for all those wishing to temporary leave the area to safety until the conflict is over.

With the evacuation of the civilian population, the full force of the Israeli and Egyptian combined armed forces can be brought together with devastated effect against ISIS. A conventional invasion from all sides by both Israel and Egypt would be the most effective. Once defeated, Israel and Egypt with financial support from the world would then help build the infrastructure of Gaza with a UN peace keeping force in residence. The people are able to return and the UN are able to set up free elections for the people of Gaza. If Hamas chose to stay, well then you get the added bonus of taking out this terrorist group also, ensuring free elections later for the people of Gaza on their return.

Bumped for Quill if he wishes to actually engage in strategies when I return.
I am not entertaining the other drivel
No methodolkogy backs doing nothing to resolve a problem as easily seen.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:08 pm

Dude, I'm gone. There's nothing productive going on here. These threads turn into nonsense after three or four passes.

Start another thread on the Middle East, and I'll explain the wisdom of relaxation and doing nothing...what you call a "methodology":

Dictionary.com wrote: noun, plural methodologies.
1. a set or system of methods, principles, and rules for regulating a given discipline, as in the arts or sciences.

2. Philosophy.

a. the underlying principles and rules of organization of a philosophical system or inquiry procedure.
b. the study of the principles underlying the organization of the various sciences and the conduct of scientific inquiry.

3. Education. a branch of pedagogics dealing with analysis and evaluation of subjects to be taught and of the methods of teaching them.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by nicko on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:52 pm

We did nothing when Hitler started throwing his weight about, and look how that turned out.
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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:36 pm

nicko wrote:We did nothing when Hitler started throwing his weight about, and look how that turned out.

Hit the nail on the head Nicko, which we could have stopped him in 1936.
That was the crucial turning point.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by sassy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:29 pm

Quill you are being idiotic and terribly misinformed.

So far this year, these are the actions logged by the US Middle East Embassy. That's just the ones they want you to know about:

06 July 2015 Obama Discusses Anti-ISIL Strategy With National Security Team at Pentagon President Barack Obama discussed the strategy to degrade and ultimately destroy the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant with civilian and military leaders of his national security team at the Pentagon today.

30 June 2015 Joint Statement on Libya by the Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States

29 June 2015 Airstrikes Continue Against ISIL in Syria, Iraq U.S. and coalition military forces have continued to attack Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorists in Syria and Iraq, reported Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve officials.

25 June 2015 New U.S. Humanitarian Assistance to Respond to Syria Crisis The United States today announced more than $360 million in additional life-saving assistance for those affected by the war in Syria. This announcement was made by U.S. National Security Advisor Susan Rice at a White House event marking World Refugee Day. This new funding brings the total U.S. humanitarian assistance in response to this conflict to more than $1.1 billion in Fiscal Year 2015 and over $4 billion since the fighting began in 2011.

22 June 2015 U.S. Airstrike Kills Person of Interest in Benghazi Attack (via DoD) [A] U.S. airstrike in Mosul, Iraq, killed a known Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant operative and organizational intermediary who was a person of interest in the Sept. 11, 2012, attack against U.S. personnel in Benghazi, Libya.

10 June 2015 Joint Communique on Libya Senior officials of the Governments of China, France, Germany, Italy, the Russian Federation, Spain, the United Kingdom, the United States of America as well as of the European Union met today in Berlin with the Libyan delegates to the UN-led Political Dialogue and in the presence of the Special Representative of the UN Secretary-General (SRSG), Bernardino León. The German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier addressed the meeting.

10 June 2015 White House Press Conference Call on New Steps to Counter ISIL "Clearly, what we have determined in reviewing this effort over the last several months is that the counter-ISIL campaign works best when we have a capable partner that we are supporting on the ground, and where Iraqis are able to pursue an inclusive approach to their politics and their efforts to provide for the security of the Iraqi people, generally. And so the steps that the President is announcing today very much aim to reinforce those important elements of the strategy -- strengthening our Iraqi partners on the ground and supporting an inclusive approach to Iraqi politics and security."

10 June 2015 U.S. Close to Decision on Sending More Military Trainers to Iraq President Barack Obama will decide as early as this week on a plan to send hundreds of additional military trainers to Iraq, U.S. officials said Tuesday, as the Pentagon continues in its bid to bolster Iraqi troops in their fight against the Islamic State group.

09 June 2015 Dempsey: President Seeks Advice on Improving Iraq Mission President Barack Obama has asked the military for recommendations on how to make the effort to train and equip Iraqi security forces more effective, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said here today.

09 June 2015 Dempsey, Israeli Leaders Discuss Defense Cooperation Discussing threats from Iran or the vicious actions of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant has a different resonance when the conversation is in Israel rather than the United States, said Army General Martin E. Dempsey.

09 June 2015 Obama: Need to Speed Training for Iraqi Forces to Battle Islamic State President Barack Obama stressed the need to more quickly train Iraqi troops in order to succeed in fighting against Islamic State fighters, saying Monday that Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi agrees on the desire for more security forces who are "trained, fresh, well-equipped and focused."

03 June 2015 U.S. Envoy Allen at Brookings-Doha U.S. Islamic World Forum

02 June 2015 State’s Blinken, Iraqi PM Abadi, French FM Fabius on Daesh Remarks by Deputy Secretary of State Antony Blinken Press Availability with Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi and French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius.

02 June 2015 Israel Has Lost Credibility in Peace Process Obama said Netanyahu's position "has so many caveats, so many conditions, that it is not realistic to think that those conditions would be met at any time in the near future. So the danger is that Israel as a whole loses credibility. Already, the international community does not believe that Israel is serious about a two-state solution."

28 May 2015 John Allen Special Presidential Envoy for the Global Coalition To Counter ISIL Interview With Sky News

26 May 2015 UN-Led Peace Talks for Yemen Postponed A United Nations-brokered peace conference for war-torn Yemen has been postponed after Yemen's president said Houthi rebels were not meeting demands for withdrawal.

26 May 2015 Anti-ISIL Airstrikes Continue in Syria, Iraq U.S. and coalition military forces have continued to attack Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorists in Syria and Iraq, Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve officials reported today.

26 May 2015 Biden’s Call with Iraqi Prime Minister Al-Abadi (via IIPDigital)

19 May 2015 Obama’s Meeting with National Security Council on ISIL (via IIPDigital)

18 May 2015 Pentagon says Iraqi, Coalition Forces Will Retake Ramadi Iraqi security forces and coalition partners will retake the Iraqi city of Ramadi, now “largely under control” of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant extremists since yesterday, a Pentagon spokesman said.

16 May 2015 DoD's Carter: Special Operations Troops Conduct Raid in Syria Defense Secretary Ash Carter announced in a statement today that U.S. special operations forces yesterday conducted an operation in Syria to capture a senior leader of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorist organization.

15 May 2015 Strategy to Defeat ISIL is Working, Military Official Says The coalition and Iraqi security forces strategy to defeat and dismantle the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant extremist group is clear and on track, said the chief of staff of Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve.

14 May 2015 Joint Statement from U.S., Gulf Cooperation Council Members President Obama and Heads of Delegations of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) member states, the Secretary General of the GCC, and members the President’s Cabinet met today at Camp David to reaffirm and deepen the strong partnership and cooperation between the United States and the GCC.
• Annex to U.S.-Gulf Cooperation Council Joint Statement

14 May 2015 Obama Hosting Gulf Summit with Focus on Iran, Regional Conflicts President Barack Obama and senior officials from six Gulf nations are continuing their summit Thursday on issues in the Middle East, including a potential nuclear deal with Iran and the fighting in Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Libya.
• Obama, Saudi Crown Prince Bin Nayef Before Their Meeting

11 May 2015 White House On-the-Record Conference Call on the GCC Summit Previewing the visit of leaders and delegations from the Gulf Cooperation Council countries (Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates) to the White House on May 13th and Camp David on May 14th.

11 May 2015 Joint Statement on Libya by the Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States The Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom and the United States of America reaffirm their strong commitment to the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and national unity of Libya, and to ensuring that Libyan economic, financial, and energy resources are used for the benefit of all Libyan people.

11 May 2015 Saudi King Salman to Skip US-Gulf Summit Saudi Arabia's King Salman will not take part in a U.S.-Arab summit hosted this week by President Barack Obama, Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir said Sunday, canceling also a planned White House meeting that had been announced only days earlier.

08 May 2015 Kerry to Meet with Gulf Cooperation Council Members, Discuss Yemen, Iran U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is in France where he is set to meet with the foreign ministers of the Gulf Cooperation Council countries to discuss security and regional matters. He will be laying the groundwork for a White House summit with Gulf leaders next week.

06 May 2015 White House on Continuation of the National Emergency with Respect to Actions of the Government of Syria "
In addition, the United States condemns the Asad regime's use of brutal violence and human rights abuses and calls on the Asad regime to stop its violence against the Syrian people and allow a political transition in Syria that will forge a credible path to a future of greater freedom, democracy, opportunity, and justice."

06 May 2015 Facts on New U.S. Humanitarian Aid for Yemen Today in Djibouti, Secretary Kerry announced the United States is providing more than $68 million to help humanitarian organizations meet the needs of nearly 16 million people in need of assistance in Yemen, including 300,000 newly internally displaced persons.

05 May 2015 UN Envoy Beginning Effort to Restart Syria Peace Talks The latest international effort to find an elusive end to the conflict in Syria begins Tuesday in Geneva, where U.N. envoy Staffan de Mistura will spend weeks meeting with those involved in the fighting and others who want to play a role in seeing it stop.

30 April 2015 Remarks With Syrian Opposition Coalition President Khaled Khoja

30 April 2015 Ambassador Power at U.N. on Situation in Yarmouk, Syria The United States strongly condemns the Syrian regime’s April 28 shelling and bombing of Yarmouk, a Palestinian refugee camp in southern Damascus, and expresses concern over today’s reports of ongoing violent clashes in the camp.

24 April 2015 Amb. Power on Syria at U.N. Briefing on Situation in Middle East

21 April 2015 Inside the Coalition to Defeat ISIL Operation Inherent Resolve is the U.S.-led coalition’s response to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorist group, often referred to as Daesh. Formed in October 2014 to counter ISIL’s sweeping takeover of territory in Iraq and Syria last summer, the task force brings to bear more than 60 countries in the fight against ISIL.

22 April 2015 Statement by NSC Spokesperson Bernadette Meehan on the Conclusion of Operation Decisive Storm The United States welcomes the decision by the Government of Saudi Arabia and its coalition partners to conclude Operation Decisive Storm in Yemen. With this announcement, we look forward to a shift from military operations to the rapid, unconditional resumption of all-party negotiations that allow Yemen to resume an inclusive political transition process as envisioned in the GCC Initiative, the National Dialogue outcomes, and relevant UN Security Council resolutions.

21 April 2015 U.S. Warships Help Ensure Maritime Security in Arabian Sea The aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt and the guided-missile cruiser USS Normandy are now operating in the Arabian Sea in response to the deteriorating security situation in Yemen, a Defense Department spokesman said.

21 April 2015 Amb. Power at U.N. Security Council Debate on Middle East Remarks by Ambassador Samantha Power, U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations, at a UN Security Council Debate on the Middle East.

20 April 2015 Coalition Strikes Target ISIL in Ramadi, Beiji The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant’s tentacles are spreading beyond Iraq and Syria to Afghanistan and Libya, but the pressure of coalition air and ground power has weakened the terrorist group, a Defense Department official said.

19 April 2015 White House Statement by National Security Council Spokesperson Bernadette Meehan on Murders in Libya "The United States condemns in the strongest terms the brutal mass murder purportedly of Ethiopian Christians by ISIL-affiliated terrorists in Libya. ... That these terrorists killed these men solely because of their faith lays bare the terrorists’ vicious, senseless brutality. This atrocity once again underscores the urgent need for a political resolution to the conflict in Libya to empower a unified Libyan rejection of terrorist groups."

16 April 2015 Amb. Power at U.N. on Syrian Chemical Weapons Victims Remarks by Ambassador Power, U.S. Permanent Representative to the UN, at a Stakeout following an Arria-Formula Meeting on Syria Chemical Weapons Victims: First-Hand and Expert Accounts.

13 April 2015 ISIL Loses Control of Once-dominated Iraq Territory Some 25 percent to 30 percent of Iraqi territory has been taken back from Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorist group control by coalition forces, Army Col. Steve Warren told reporters.

12 April 2015 Joint Statement on Libya Following is a joint statement on Libya by Foreign Ministers Fabius, Steinmeier, Gentiloni, García-Margallo, Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs Hammond, and Secretary of State Kerry.

08 April 2015 Readout of the Counter-ISIL Coalition Small Group Meeting in Jordan (State.gov) On April 8 Special Presidential Envoy General John Allen and Deputy Special Presidential Envoy Brett McGurk participated in a meeting of the Small Group of the Global Coalition to Counter ISIL in Jordan. The Small Group met at the Political Director level to review Coalition operations and progress along the various lines of effort to degrade and defeat ISIL. The leadership of the Coalition Working Groups gave briefings on their respective activities to date and discussed priorities for their efforts in the coming months. This meeting of the Coalition Small Group marked the first Coalition meeting since Working Groups were established in February 2015.

07 April 2015 Ambassador Power on Situation in Yarmouk, Syria

06 April 2015 State’s Blinken After Meeting with Lebanese PM Salam

30 March 2015 Operation Inherent Resolve Airstrikes Hit ISIL Targets in Iraq U.S. and coalition military forces have continued to attack Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorists in Syria and Iraq, Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve officials reported today. The strikes were conducted as part of Operation Inherent Resolve, the operation to eliminate the ISIL terrorist group and the threat they pose to Iraq, Syria, the region, and the wider international community.
26 March 2015 Obama’s Call with Turkish President Erdogan The President spoke with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan today to discuss ongoing cooperation in the fight against ISIL and common efforts to bring security and stability to Iraq and Syria. The two leaders reviewed the train and equip program for vetted members of the moderate Syrian opposition.

26 March 2015 Obama’s Call with Turkish President Erdogan The President spoke with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan today to discuss ongoing cooperation in the fight against ISIL and common efforts to bring security and stability to Iraq and Syria. The two leaders reviewed the train and equip program for vetted members of the moderate Syrian opposition.

25 March 2015 Coalition Forces Begin Operations in Tikrit U.S. and coalition military forces have begun operations in support of Iraqi security forces in Tikrit after a request from the Iraqi government, officials from Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve announced this afternoon.

21 March 2015 Joint Statement On Libya by the Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the UK and the U.S. The Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom and the United States welcome the resumption of the Libyan political dialogue in Skhirat, Morocco. We strongly support the efforts of the Special Representative of the UN Secretary General, Bernardino Leon, the UNSMIL team and the Libyan participants and congratulate them all on the progress made so far. We urge those taking part in the dialogue to enter into the discussions constructively and in good faith in order to reach agreement on a National Unity Government and arrangements for a ceasefire as quickly as possible.

19 March 2015 State Dept. on allegations of Chemical Weapons Use in Sarmin, Syria The United States is deeply disturbed by reports that the Assad regime used chlorine as a weapon again, this time on March 16 in an attack on the town of Sarmin. We are looking very closely into this matter and considering next steps. While we cannot yet confirm details, if true, this would be only the latest tragic example of the Assad regime's atrocities against the Syrian people, which the entire international community must condemn.

13 March 2015 State’s Blinken on 4th Anniversary of Syrian Uprising "This anniversary marks the moment when peaceful calls for freedom and dignity were met with bullets and barrel bombs."

11 March 2015 Secretary Kerry on The President's Request for Authorization to Use Force Against ISIS: Military and Diplomatic Efforts "ISIL’s momentum has been diminished, Mr. Chairman. It’s still picking up supporters in places. Obviously, we’ve all observed that. But in the places where we have focused and where we are asking you to focus at this moment in time, it is clear that even while savage attacks continue, there is the beginning of a process to cut off their supply lines, to take out their leaders, to cut off their finances, to reduce the foreign fighters, to counter the messaging that has brought some of those fighters to this effort. But to ensure its defeat, we have to persist until we prevail in the broad-based campaign along multiple lines of effort that have been laid out over the course of the last months."

11 March 2015 Defense Secretary Carter: Proposed Authorization Gives Flexibility to Fight ISIL President Barack Obama’s proposed authorization to use military force against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is flexible enough to allow for the full range of military scenarios, Defense Secretary Ash Carter told a Senate panel this morning.

06 March 2015 Ambassador Power on Adoption of U.N. Resolution on Syria "We adopt this resolution today a year and a half after this Council adopted a binding resolution in the wake of a horrific, gruesome chemical weapons attack that left more than a thousand civilians and hundreds of children killed. Resolution 2118 required the Syrian regime to dismantle and destroy its chemical weapons program under international supervision. ... Despite having acceded to the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Assad regime has again demonstrated its brutality by turning to chlorine as another barbaric weapon in its arsenal against the Syrian people."

03 March 2015 Officials Outline Policy, Posture in Middle East Defeating the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorist organization and preventing Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon are the top two issues that must be addressed in the U.S. Central Command area of responsibility, the undersecretary of defense for policy told Congress today.

24 February 2015 Defeating Daesh Takes Diplomatic, Military Effort, Carter Says Dealing a lasting defeat to Daesh will require “a combined diplomatic and military effort,” Defense Secretary Ash Carter told reporters at Camp Arifjan, Kuwait, after he concluded a conference there with ambassadors and senior U.S. and regional military leaders.

23 February 2015 U.S. Defense Chief: ‘Lasting Defeat’ Needed Against Daesh

17 February 2015 United States Provides $125 Million to the World Food Program for the Syria Crisis

17 February 2015 Joint Statement on Libya by U.S., 6 European Nations "The governments of France, Italy, Germany, Spain, the United Kingdom and the United States strongly condemn all acts of terrorism in Libya. The heinous murder of twenty-one Egyptian citizens in Libya by ISIL-affiliated terrorists once again underscores the urgent need for a political resolution to the conflict in Libya, the continuation of which only benefits terrorist groups, including ISIL."

11 February 2015 Obama on Request to Congress to Authorize Force Against ISIL "As I’ve said before, I’m convinced that the United States should not get dragged back into another prolonged ground war in the Middle East. That’s not in our national security interest and it’s not necessary for us to defeat ISIL. Local forces on the ground who know their countries best are best positioned to take the ground fight to ISIL -- and that’s what they’re doing."
• Secretary Kerry on Support for Authorization for Use of Military Force (state.gov)

08 February 2015 Kerry's Interview on ISIL, Ukraine, Iran "We call on all Libyan parties to participate constructively in the UN-led dialogue in order to reach rapidly a sustainable ceasefire and a national unity government."

06 February 2015 Joint Statement on Libya by the Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States

03 February 2015 Secretary Kerry Hosts Plenary Meeting of the Global Coalition to Counter ISIL This morning, Secretary of State John Kerry welcomed to the State Department senior diplomatic representatives from nearly 60 nations, including more than 35 Washington-based ambassadors, from partner countries in the global coalition to counter ISIL

03 February 2015 Statement by President Obama on the Death of First Lieutenant Moaz al-Kasasbeh "Today, we join the people of Jordan in grieving the loss of one of their own, First Lieutenant Moaz al-Kasasbeh, cruelly and brutally killed by ISIL terrorists. On behalf of the American people, I offer my deepest condolences to Lieutenant al-Kasasbeh’s family and loved ones, to the brave men and women of the Jordan Armed Forces, and to King Abdullah II and the people of Jordan."

03 February 2015 International Community United Against ISIL, Strikes Making Difference, DoD's Kirby Says The battle against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is not a U.S. war, it is a large international effort to defeat a crazed and barbaric ideology, said Pentagon Press Secretary Navy Rear Adm. John Kirby.

29 January 2015 Competent, Willing Partnerships Result in Gains Against ISIL The success of Kurdish forces battling Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorists in the Syrian town of Kobani is an example of what can be done with a reliable, willing and capable partner, said the Pentagon press secretary.

15 January 2015 Amb. Power at U.N. Security Council Debate on Middle East Remarks on Syria, Lebanon, and Middle East peace.

14 January 2015 Kerry Expresses Support for U.N., Russian Peace Efforts in Syria U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry has expressed support for U.N. efforts to halt the fighting in the Syrian city of Aleppo, as well as for Russia’s bid to restart peace talks for the war-torn nation.

14 January 2015 Kerry, U.N. Special Envoy for Syria After Meeting in Geneva Remarks by Secretary of State John Kerry and UN Special Envoy for Syria Staffan de Mistura after their meeting.

12 January 2015 Obama’s Call with Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel (via IIP Digital)

10 January 2015 Joint Statement on Libya by the Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States The governments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States applaud the extraordinary efforts of Bernardino Leon, the Special Representative of the UN Secretary General, and welcome his announcement of a new round of political dialogue in Geneva next week.

06 January 2015 Inherent Resolve Airstrikes Continue in Syria, Iraq U.S. and partner-nation military forces have continued to attack Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorists in Syria and Iraq, Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve officials reported today.

http://london.usembassy.gov/midest.html


Now, can we ignore the deviation from the thread by someone who has never know diddly squat about the Middle East, and get back to the discussion?

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by sassy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:09 pm

Now, I'm having trouble getting my head around Didge not giving a damn about civilians in other areas that IS have attacked it seems, as he has not called for them to be taken to a place of relative safety (even the Kurds apparently) but he is so worried about the civilians in Gaza he wants them moved (the fact that there is no way Israel would allow this is beside the point). He also seems to think that Hamas have something to do with the formation of IS, when Hamas have been bitterly fighting them to protect the Palestinian refugess in Yarmouk who IS were slaughtering, and think they would not be as good at fighting them as Israelis, who at the moment tend to fight women and children and rescue IS fighters when they are injured, patch them up, and send them back into battle.

Many people have been cheering on the Kurds, who are classed as terrorists, including myself and Didge, but Hamas, who have been taken off the list of terrorists by the EU, should not be allowed to protect themselves and the Palestinians according to him, but should allow their enemies to take over their land and do it for them.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:18 pm

Absurd argument.
I have called for the civillians to be evacuated.
So sassy places a comparrison to no comparrison to the situation.
This is not Iraq or Syria, but a small aras that is actually capable of moving the peoiple.
All I am seeing is arguments against the saftey of the people in order to arm Hamas.
She seems to confuse the Kurds with Hamas
The Kurds are secular.
Hamas are Thecracy.
She wishes two arm extremists, where the Kurds are not extremists.
There is no comparrison.
She places two groups fighting on an equal standing when none exists.
You do not arm a group that everyday advocates the extinction of all Jews.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by eddie on Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:46 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Not sure "doing nothing" ever achieved anything?

Quill what exactly do you mean by "nothing"?

Re-frame the question: What do you (or anyone) mean by doing something?

Go in a blow shit up?  That worked real well the last two wars, didn't it?  How'd that work out in Viet Nam?  Granada?  Somolia?  Kosovo?

You've got to keep in mind that anything you try to do is either part of the solution or part of the problem.  If you suggest blowing shit up, you're going to kill babies, mothers, leave families destitute, leave whole nations without order, in chaos, and perhaps even worse off.

What do you mean by doing something?  Give us a purpose.  Give us a plan.

I take your point. I do.
My father used to say the same thing; let them get in with it because the opposite isn't working

i am a,ways in favour of going out on a limb and I also have that mentality of "If the light ain't coming in stop flicking the switch"

But...... ?? I. Really don't know

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Irn Bru on Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:04 am

Cuchulain wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

For one its not mt fault you are unable to see the simplicity of the plan.
Again your hate is clouding your ability to think rationally here.
Again the PA has no control in Gaza and Hamas are not going to want them to have any.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Nor sure how many times this needs explaning.
Again if the people of gaza and the PA want to join forces with Israel and Egypt, then they are free to do so.
Hamas though cannot join unless they renounce their charter and agree to recognize Israel
The Kurds are not what I would class as terrorist. They maybe in Turkey, but then Turkey is run by a dictator.
The problem has arisen and made worse in Syria for arming terrorist groups, the point you miss.

Your plan is simple on paper but unrealistic and I believe unlikely to happen.
Hearsay and off no valid reason as to why
And of course the PA and and Hamas are free to defend their homeland rightfully attributed to them by the UN and if Egypt and Israel want to support them in doing that then that's fine but they need to Arms to do so and they should be given them just as the Kurds are in Syria. And of course Israel do not recognise Palestine as a State.
The UN is not fit for purpose, when it allows human rights abusers on its council. So to use them as a green light for recognition, when both Hamas and the PA have spurned the chance for peace many times is invalid.
The Kurds are a terrorist organisation but even then I support them being given the equipment they need to fight off this evil regime just as I believe the PA and Hamas should as well.
The Hamas charter has never featured in any of their publicatons or manifesto for years and the only people that keep bringing it up are people like you while blissfuly ignoring the Lukid Party platform that staes that all of Eretz Isreal is theirs basically because the bible told them so.
And yet it has never been rescinded and yet further proof your are an islamic extremist apologist. You just have not the guts to admit that you are. At every turn there is nothing stopping Hamas today renouncing vilolence against Israel and giving up its rockets as a sign of good will. They never have and never will because they do not and will not accept the right of Israel to exists.
I do not back any religious bable to claim over lands, so that is yet another deflection from the fact Hamas wants no lasting peace with Israel 

Your last sentence above suggests we should not be providing Arms and equipment to the Kurds then?

Right, I have to go for a while with taxes to pay etc and work to be done so I'll read your response later.


I am happy we give arms to the Kurds. I do not see the Kurds in Iraq and Syria as terrorists. In fact it is in Turkey they are deemed terroists and are no longer deemed terrorists by the west. So you have no point again
They believe in secularism.
Where we went wrong was providing arms to many groups where they ended up in the arms or ISIS and AL-Qaeda.

At least we now see you support an Islamic terrorist group in Hamas, who have not allowed a single election since they gained power. Rule by thoecracy, denying equality. You seem to be making a case of the lesser of two evils, well both need to be destroyed, not aid one of them as you wish to do so. Only an apologist to theocracy would advocate such a policy.

Anyway, you are refusing to accept the best plan here which will saves the most civillian lives and you are just going over the same lame points just proposing to me that others should support Hamas like you do.
Not a chance, they follow the same extreme ideology of ISIS. The only difference is that ISIS commits more attrocities.
So lets have something new in your argumentg as you are just going around in circles.

The only hearsay around here is your ridicukous plan to evacuate Gaza of all citizens even sending some to the West Bank leaving Gaza itself as the venue for the battle lol

And it doesn't matter what you think, the Kurds are terrorists who have turned into the good guys because they are fighting ISIS and beating them. They've blown people to kingdom come for years attacking targets all over Europe as well.

Anyway, I've got what I wanted out of you and that is the knowledge that rather than arm Hamas or the PA to defend themselves you would just leave the population of Gaza to be murdered by these evil creatures.




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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Irn Bru on Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:54 am

Original Quill wrote:Dude, I'm gone.  There's nothing productive going on here.  These threads turn into nonsense after three or four passes.

Start another thread on the Middle East, and I'll explain the wisdom of relaxation and doing nothing...what you call a "methodology":

Dictionary.com wrote: noun, plural methodologies.
1. a set or system of methods, principles, and rules for regulating a given discipline, as in the arts or sciences.

2.  Philosophy.

   a. the underlying principles and rules of organization of a philosophical system or inquiry procedure.
   b. the study of the principles underlying the organization of the various sciences and the conduct of scientific inquiry.

3.  Education. a branch of pedagogics dealing with analysis and evaluation of subjects to be taught and of the methods of teaching them.

You right in what you say up to a point Quill because the Middle East is on fire at the moment with no end game in sight. But this lot ISIS are dangerous in that if they got their hands on much of the weapons that are kicking around the region you may well find that they would be able to strike at America without even having to set foot in it.

They have to be stopped before it comes to that.

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Re: Gaza - ISIS

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:55 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

I am happy we give arms to the Kurds. I do not see the Kurds in Iraq and Syria as terrorists. In fact it is in Turkey they are deemed terroists and are no longer deemed terrorists by the west. So you have no point again
They believe in secularism.
Where we went wrong was providing arms to many groups where they ended up in the arms or ISIS and AL-Qaeda.

At least we now see you support an Islamic terrorist group in Hamas, who have not allowed a single election since they gained power. Rule by thoecracy, denying equality. You seem to be making a case of the lesser of two evils, well both need to be destroyed, not aid one of them as you wish to do so. Only an apologist to theocracy would advocate such a policy.

Anyway, you are refusing to accept the best plan here which will saves the most civillian lives and you are just going over the same lame points just proposing to me that others should support Hamas like you do.
Not a chance, they follow the same extreme ideology of ISIS. The only difference is that ISIS commits more attrocities.
So lets have something new in your argumentg as you are just going around in circles.

The only hearsay around here is your ridicukous plan to evacuate Gaza of all citizens even sending some to the West Bank leaving Gaza itself as the venue for the battle lol

And it doesn't matter what you think, the Kurds are terrorists who have turned into the good guys because they are fighting ISIS and beating them. They've blown people to kingdom come for years attacking targets all over Europe as well.

Anyway, I've got what I wanted out of you and that is the knowledge that rather than arm Hamas or the PA to defend themselves you would just leave the population of Gaza to be murdered by these evil creatures.




Point 1) As seen it is not ridiculous if Israel can plan an evacuation of a million people in Lebannon

Point 2) It does not matter what you think, as you want to arm hamas a terrorist group. The Kurds are not terrorists, that the west has discounted that they are shows they have moved on from terrorism of which again was mainly in Turkey. Hamas has not moved away from Terrorism, it daily calls for the destruction of Israel

Point 3) You got nothing, I easily showed a much better proposal which would protect the lives of cvillians, which you would place them in harms way. You want to arm terrorist in Hamas. I said I was happy for the PA to join the Coalition against ISIS and Hamas. So to say I wantg to allow the people to be murdered is as seen a lie. You are ignoring my far better plan which looks to the safety of the civillians. Anyone can see that, so no pathetic attempt on your part can prove that. What we have learnt is you wish to arm a group who's sole intent is to wipe out the Jews.

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