By the Bizarre Logic of Anti-Gay Marriage Zealots, the Supreme Court Should Allow Businesses to Discriminate Against Interracial Couples

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:51 am

by Robert McWhirter

Robert McWhirter uses the Constitution and Bill of Rights every day as a practicing criminal lawyer and authority on immigration law and trial advocacy. His vast experience and impressive credentials in the field of law have prepared him for his latest contribution to all American citizens as author of Bill, Quills, and Stills: An Annotated, Illustrated, and Illuminated History of the Bill of Rights (American Bar Association, August 2015).

The Culture Wars are really over. Most Americans believe gay people should marry, abortion should be legal, contraception readily available. So, what is a lost culture warrior to do? Americans also believe in religious freedom.  So, the answer is to recast yourself as defending religious freedom.  After all, you can’t trump a civil or privacy right with a political argument.  For that you need another right like freedom of religion. 
By the Bizarre Logic of Anti-Gay Marriage Zealots, the Supreme Court Should Allow Businesses to Discriminate Against Interracial Couples 159613-bqsj“Defending religious freedom” has been in play for a while.  No one has argued for a long time we should impede access to contraception; Griswold v. Connecticut put it to rest in 1965.  So, the new play for those with religious scruples against the Pill, and those who wanted to snipe at Obama Care, was Hobby Lobby.  Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, 573 U.S. ___ (2014).  Now even a closely held for-profit corporation gets individual “freedom of religion” to deny its employees contraceptives. 
As for same-sex marriage, Ted Cruz and others swear they have nothing against gay people, but court rulings on same-sex marriage are “a real danger to our liberty.” “We have seen judges, especially the Supreme Court, ignoring the law,” opines Cruz.  (A bit premature given the Supreme Court has yet to rule in Obergefell v. Hodges).      
But the problem for the Cruzes is Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967), the best named case in Supreme Court history.  Loving defined marriage as a civil right, which by definition, are inalienable for everyone:
Marriage is one of the ‘basic civil rights of man,’ fundamental to our very existence and survival. . . . To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, [is] … directly subversive … [to] the 14th Amendment . . ..”
Opponents of same-sex marriage can’t attack this head on.  So the first play is to argue definitions.  After all, said George W. Bush, “marriage is between a man and a woman.”  Subtext: “We don’t deny gay people a fundamental right, we just define them out of it.”  
Aside from being disingenuous on its face, it’s historically inaccurate.  In most cultures even today, marriage at its inception is between and man and a girl; indeed, the survival of “Confederate War Brides” showed it was a common American norm. 
The Ancient Romans did not even have government recognition of marriage because it was part of the res privada, not the res publicada.  You could have married a goat for all they cared. The Bible is full of polygamy.  Jacob had two wives and two concubines and it remains a still debated question how many hundred wives David and Solomon each had (just try to remember the anniversaries!). 
English and American common law provided marriage was not “between” a man and woman but just the man.  Women lost all legal identity in marriage as the great 18th century jurist Sir William Blackstone noted,

[t]he very being or legal existence of the woman is suspended during the marriage, or at least is incorporated and consolidated into that of the husband; under whose wing, protection and cover, she performs everything.”

But history aside, what about someone with a sincerely held religious belief against same-sex marriage?  Do we protect the cake decorator or wedding photographer or minister who wants no part of the ceremony? 
Before we do we should look back. 

Richard and Mildred Loving stood criminally convicted under Virginia's anti-miscegenation statute, the “Racial Integrity Act of 1924.”  Richard was white and Mildred was black.  Judge Leon M. Bazile when passing sentence on them made no qualms about its religious basis:  
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”]

The Supreme Court had none of this in overturning the statute.  As the lovely Mildred said upon hearing the good news, “It wasn't my doing. ‘It was God's work."

If we say religious freedom allows someone to discriminate against same-sex marriage, then we take a step back to allow any discrimination for any sincere religious belief.  If your God tells you blacks and whites should not marry, then so be it, no miscegenation and you don’t have to decorate the cake. 

In given faiths, “marriage” has a deeply religious and spiritual meaning to people.  Various denominations will exclude, as creed, same-sex marriage.  Despite Mike Huckabee’s claim that “gays” are mounting an attack on Christianity that "won’t stop until there are no more churches …,” Churches have a right not to recognize same-sex marriages. But then, other denominations have just as much right to recognize them.
For government, however, “marriage” is just a way of organizing property, rights, and obligations between two people and the state - it is synonymous with “civil union.”  The benefits its status confers is a fundamental right. Denying this right is overt discrimination, something Americans no longer countenance.


http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/159613

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:39 pm

I agree with everyone's right to their opinion and everyone's right to refuse service if they so wish..

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:55 pm

Its easy to say that when you are not part a group that people would refuse service to...

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:00 pm

Eilzel wrote:Its easy to say that when you are not part a group that people would refuse service to...

I suppose that is true but i happen to know what it is like to fall in to a few categories that would result in being discriminated against.

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:01 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Its easy to say that when you are not part a group that people would refuse service to...

I suppose that is true but i happen to know what it is like to fall in to a few categories that would result in being discriminated against.

Such as?

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:06 pm

Eilzel wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

I suppose that is true but i happen to know what it is like to fall in to a few categories that would result in being discriminated against.

Such as?
race, mixed race, beliefs, even work i did...

the biggest difference some of mine I never chose...

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:08 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Such as?
race, mixed race, beliefs, even work i did...

the biggest difference some of mine I never chose...

I never chose mine, homosexuality is not a choice.

If you think it is a choice- why do you think we would choose it?

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 pm

Eilzel wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
race, mixed race, beliefs, even work i did...

the biggest difference some of mine I never chose...

I never chose mine, homosexuality is not a choice.

If you think it is a choice- why do you think we would choose it?

of course it is a choice, there is no gay gene it's just a life choice, several reason, ugly could be one, raped, some one tried it on and you liked it. who knows...

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:12 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

I never chose mine, homosexuality is not a choice.

If you think it is a choice- why do you think we would choose it?

of course it is a choice, there is no gay gene it's just a life choice, several reason, ugly could be one, raped, some one tried it on and you liked it. who knows...

If a man tries it on with a man and the man is straight, the straight does not turn gay.
There are plenty of ugly straight people and gorgeous gay people to disprove that one.
Most people who are raped do not suddenly find the same sex attractive...

Try again.

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:14 pm

And even if it was any of those things, it still wouldn't be a choice. Whether or not there is a gay gene does not change whether or not its a choice- but I'm not going into science with an evolution denier.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:18 pm

Eilzel wrote:And even if it was any of those things, it still wouldn't be a choice. Whether or not there is a gay gene does not change whether or not its a choice- but I'm not going into science with an evolution denier.

of course it would be a choice, a choice to continue in it or not...
or you could avoid science as you know nothing about it..
you think humanity is evolving in to homosexuality, that would completely stand against the idea of survival...

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:20 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Eilzel wrote:And even if it was any of those things, it still wouldn't be a choice. Whether or not there is a gay gene does not change whether or not its a choice- but I'm not going into science with an evolution denier.

of course it would be a choice, a choice to continue in it or not...
or you could avoid science as you know nothing about it..
you think humanity is evolving in to homosexuality, that would completely stand against the idea of survival...

Where on earth did you get that idea? Are you just doing that thing where you play stupid now?

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:32 pm

Eilzel wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

of course it would be a choice, a choice to continue in it or not...
or you could avoid science as you know nothing about it..
you think humanity is evolving in to homosexuality, that would completely stand against the idea of survival...

Where on earth did you get that idea? Are you just doing that thing where you play stupid now?

well evolution has thrown its hand in with adaption, natural selection, the idea that mutations, though only neutral and negative ones ever exist neither would help, allow change to better suited to facilitate survival, what would be the point of an evolutionary change that would wipe out the species.. unless homosexuality is actually a negative mutation, that would be kinda interesting...

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:37 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Where on earth did you get that idea? Are you just doing that thing where you play stupid now?

well evolution has thrown its hand in with adaption, natural selection, the idea that mutations, though only neutral and negative ones ever exist neither would help, allow change to better suited to facilitate survival, what would be the point of an evolutionary change that would wipe out the species.. unless homosexuality is actually a negative mutation, that would be kinda interesting...

There are various theories as to why homosexuality exists within species. Science can't answer that right now, but no doubt it will one day. That still doesn't make it a choice.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:48 pm

Eilzel wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

well evolution has thrown its hand in with adaption, natural selection, the idea that mutations, though only neutral and negative ones ever exist neither would help, allow change to better suited to facilitate survival, what would be the point of an evolutionary change that would wipe out the species.. unless homosexuality is actually a negative mutation, that would be kinda interesting...

There are various theories as to why homosexuality exists within species. Science can't answer that right now, but no doubt it will one day. That still doesn't make it a choice.

which is odd when you consider all those gays desperate to prove it isn't their fault...

ho long must we wait as long as the missing link perhaps...

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